Why AUC versus a US DO School?

[gtheofilis]

Has anyone opted for AUC over a US DO School? I'm curious if I should take a US DO acceptance over AUC.

[Scott1981]

i matriculated into a DO school and left midway through the 1st semester mainly due to family isuues. i was guarenteed a new spot the following year but chose AUC.

boy oh boy am i happy im here at AUC. ill be honest, people can make fun of the teaching here all they want but the DO teaching was 10 times WORSE. the curriculim organization was appaling and you have to do an extra year in residency because you are a DO.

do a search with my username and this subject as a keyword and you will see i covered it thoroughly. it should be helpful.

[ed gee]

DOs do not have to do an extra year of residency. I am involved in the screening and selection process for our residency. We are far more likely to interview a DO than an IMG. Too, the DOs are far more likely to be ranked in the upper tier and have been some of our best residents in recent years. The only Carib grads we have interviewed this season are from SGU and none have been ranked beter than lower tier. Our experiences with the other offshore school students have not been stellar, having been burned in the past. We no longer interview any applicants from one of the larger schools.






i matriculated into a DO school and left midway through the 1st semester mainly due to family isuues. i was guarenteed a new spot the following year but chose AUC.

boy oh boy am i happy im here at AUC. ill be honest, people can make fun of the teaching here all they want but the DO teaching was 10 times WORSE. the curriculim organization was appaling and you have to do an extra year in residency because you are a DO.

do a search with my username and this subject as a keyword and you will see i covered it thoroughly. it should be helpful.

[wolfvgang22]

Scott1981 went to a DO school that stunk. Does this mean all DO schools stink? I don't know.

I do think that going to a US DO school gives you an advantage when getting a residency, since DO schools seem to have gained much more acceptance in parts of the country such as Texas.

Of course, this is the place where Steph or another will interject that other Program Directors may prefer SGU or AUC students over a DO student. That may be so in their experience. It is true that DOs face less problems obtaining licensures in many tough states, like Texas. I think one would be hard pressed to find caribbean schools better than DO schools, based on which is most likely to get you licensed, and hence, get you a job.

Because of this, had I been admitted to a DO school I would have gone to the DO school. I would encourage others to do the same, unless they are admitted to the school Scott has mentioned. :lol:

Others will disagree vigorously. DO school is not for everybody anymore than caribbean allopathic schools are.

[Scott1981]

DOs do not have to do an extra year of residency. I am involved in the screening and selection process for our residency. We are far more likely to interview a DO than an IMG. Too, the DOs are far more likely to be ranked in the upper tier and have been some of our best residents in recent years. The only Carib grads we have interviewed this season are from SGU and none have been ranked beter than lower tier. Our experiences with the other offshore school students have not been stellar, having been burned in the past. We no longer interview any applicants from one of the larger schools.


im sorry, but you are misinformed. they HAVE to complete one year rotating internship before they can start the real residency. this year "internship" can be done at a different hospital than the actual residency. trust me as i WAS in the DO program. you may be screening and used to screening MDs, but i think you should study up on DOs more with the regulations and rules. a couple of states may allow DOs to fast track through this. BUT THE REST ALL REQUIRE IT. FLORIDA INCLUDED WHERE I LIVE AND MY SCHOOL WAS.
Osteopathic interns complete 13 4-week block rotations, including: general internal medicine (2 blocks), emergency medicine, family practice, CCU, Night Medicine, and general surgery.


here is an example of emergency medicine certification:
from: http://www.aobem.org/certification.htm

Candidates initiating residency training on or after July 1, 1989, must have satisfactorily completed three (3) years of approved AOA training in emergency medicine following the required one (1) year of internship
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http://do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_postdoc
from:
Postdoctoral Training


Postdoctoral training is a fundamental part of becoming an osteopathic physician providing the opportunity to utilize the hands-on approach central to the tenets of osteopathic medicine. Following graduation, osteopathic graduates complete an approved 12-month internship. Many graduates then choose to complete a residency program in a specialty area.

Internships

An internship is an educational program requiring extensive participation in patient care. It serves as the link between predoctoral and postdoctoral clinical training and provides a year of maturation and transition from application of predoctoral knowledge to clinical decision-making skills. The internship exposes graduates to core disciplines including internal medicine, family practice, general surgery, obstetrics/gynecology, pediatrics and emergency medicine

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so i dont know how you are screening your applicants because if you are unaware of this, then you may be allowing UNQUALIFIED DOs into your program.

[envivany1]

DOs do not have to do an extra year of residency. I am involved in the screening and selection process for our residency. We are far more likely to interview a DO than an IMG. Too, the DOs are far more likely to be ranked in the upper tier and have been some of our best residents in recent years. The only Carib grads we have interviewed this season are from SGU and none have been ranked beter than lower tier. Our experiences with the other offshore school students have not been stellar, having been burned in the past. We no longer interview any applicants from one of the larger schools.


ALL DO SCHOOLS ARE NOT EQUAL
ALL CARIBBEAN SCHOOLS ARE NOT EQUAL
Well you do have to realize that opinions vary from state to state and from hospital to hospital. DOs are less recognized in certain regions, just because your hospital feels that way doesnt mean it is the same everywhere. DOs and IMGs both have a stigma and which is worse all depends on where you apply and your PD. My aunt is a doctor at a hospital that will not really consider DOs. So, people are looking for the lesser of two evils, however there isnt a clear cut winner. Some carib schools are better than some osteo schools and vice versa. Do your research and make the decision that is right for you. I personally decided against osteo, because it is not recognized all over the world. I would like a career in which I would be secure no matter what country I move to; but I am not american, so the decision must be different for most people.

thats my 2 cents

[envivany1]

:oops:

[envivany1]

:oops:

[envivany1]

:oops:

[envivany1]

:oops:

[Baditude]

I chose AUC over 2 different DO schools. The reasons for my choice were that I may end up outside of the USA and DO's can't practice outside of the US and maybe Canada also being an older student the option to be out in 20 months was attractive. AUC also has decent 1st time pass rates for the USMLE(equal to many DO schools). The last reason was more of a personal thing let me first tell you my regular doctor is a DO and I think he is awesome but when I interviewed I was relly irritated with the whole DO's think more about the patients as people than MD's and the OMM as the best thing stories. I really think that a good doctor is one who can connect with and get through to their patients and it really has nothing to do with the initials after their name.
I am very happy with my choice to attend AUC I like the people and I really do enjoy the island way of life. If you really think about it basic sciences can be taught anywhere it is the clinical experience and residency that makes the difference.

Good luck in your decision

[envivany1]

:oops:

[envivany1]

:oops:

[ed gee]

No, you are misinformed. Five states require the DO internship (PA, WV, MI, OK and FL), however an ACGME PG-1 is acceptable, if the proper paper work (and rotations) are completed. I have been part of a committee that is responsible for DOs getting their ACGME PG-1 approved and previously was a physical diagnosis instructor at a DO school for two years and also taught DO interns and residencies. The reality is that I am far more informed on this subject than you. US DOs are eligible for residency at all ACGME programs without a DO internship.



"im sorry, but you are misinformed. they HAVE to complete one year rotating internship before they can start the real residency. this year "internship" can be done at a different hospital than the actual residency. trust me as i WAS in the DO program. you may be screening and used to screening MDs, but i think you should study up on DOs more with the regulations and rules. a couple of states may allow DOs to fast track through this. BUT THE REST ALL REQUIRE IT. FLORIDA INCLUDED WHERE I LIVE AND MY SCHOOL WAS.
Osteopathic interns complete 13 4-week block rotations, including: general internal medicine (2 blocks), emergency medicine, family practice, CCU, Night Medicine, and general surgery.


here is an example of emergency medicine certification:
from: http://www.aobem.org/certification.htm

Candidates initiating residency training on or after July 1, 1989, must have satisfactorily completed three (3) years of approved AOA training in emergency medicine following the required one (1) year of internship
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_postdoc
from:
Postdoctoral Training


Postdoctoral training is a fundamental part of becoming an osteopathic physician providing the opportunity to utilize the hands-on approach central to the tenets of osteopathic medicine. Following graduation, osteopathic graduates complete an approved 12-month internship. Many graduates then choose to complete a residency program in a specialty area.

Internships

An internship is an educational program requiring extensive participation in patient care. It serves as the link between predoctoral and postdoctoral clinical training and provides a year of maturation and transition from application of predoctoral knowledge to clinical decision-making skills. The internship exposes graduates to core disciplines including internal medicine, family practice, general surgery, obstetrics/gynecology, pediatrics and emergency medicine

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so i dont know how you are screening your applicants because if you are unaware of this, then you may be allowing UNQUALIFIED DOs into your program.[/quote]"

[Scott1981]

i had a long and through orientation at NOVA that lasted a full week from 8-5 everyday. non stop lectures on how life was gonna be as a DO and this was a matter that came up many times. the exact words were that you need to do a 1 year internship. plus if you want to get board certified, you really muct make sure that its done.

now there are a few states that waive this process, but the majority dont.

now there is a loophole through this. some residency, very few mind you, have a thorough comprehensice first year and MAY qualify to have that count as the transitional year.

this is all what they are teaching their students. hence when i do a search on the internet the requirement comes up in almost every program that i look at in numerous states such as ohio, ilinois, new york in particular.

ill tell you what............ you can say that you are a screener and worked in a DO school and all, but show documentation about the fact that it is not required.

so far, im going by what they taught us in school and by the requirement by every website residency, board certification site, and state site that i look at.

you can claim things all you want, but find proof. if you proove otherwise, i will stand corrected, but im just telling you what i along with 209 other students were told as well as what every website has been saying.

[gtheofilis]

Was there anything specific that you did not like about NOVA? Has anyone been to LECOM?

I have a friend that graduated from LECOM and had no problem getting a residency in Internal medicine here in Pittsburgh. My cousin who is also a physician in Pittsburgh informed me that the local hospitals first fill residency slots with US MDs, then DOs, then FMGs.

It would be nice to get a straight answer once and for all. There is too much ** thrown about by both MDs, DOs, and FMGs

[CuriousCat]

This is JMO, but I would go to the US DO school over the carribean. Mainly because you wouldn't have to deal with such stereotypes. Not necessarily because of the quality of education. Regardless of where you go, you are the only thing that really truley determines whether or not you'll be a good doc. Like was said earlier, basic science is basic science, does it really matter where your lecture hall is... I don't think so. Clinicals and residency are what matters.... and of course, USMLE.

Just my $.02

[Scott1981]

here is a simple answer. the user named "stephew" summed it up the best in another thread. some DO schools are better than some carib schools AND some carib schools are better than some DO schools.

I happened to go to a "less than impressive" DO school. the theory of figuring that the automatic order for residency is US MD then DO then carib for good residency slots only holds true for the US MD.

DO and carib MD schools have different match results from their students. some carib schools have more impressive match results than some DO schools and vice versa.

the only advantage that you have with DO schools is that you can enter into the DO match so you have a little more residency slots to choose from if you dont care about continuing osteopathic.

just remember that you will most likely need to do that extra year of post graduate rotating intership if you are a DO.

something that was interesting, I looked at all the DO residency programs and they seem to have 16 derm programs. that is quite a few for the small amount of DO students that graduate each year comparing to MDs.

if you want derm, which is almost impossible to get as an IMG or even US MD for that matter........ DO is your best bet. just stick through that extra year.

BOTTOM LINE................... program directors see right through DO and carib MD students. they know that we both couldnt get into US allopathic schools.

good luck

[ed gee]

Five states require an AOA internship. It is also required for AOA board certification, not ABMS. ~85% of DOs that apply for approval of their ACGME PG-1 have it approved on the first try.

I have lectured many times to DO students at one of the larger DO schools on how to get an ACGME residency.

45 states do NOT require a DO internship. A DO would only have to do an additional year if they were misinformed, as you are.

[Scott1981]

Five states require an AOA internship. It is also required for AOA board certification, not ABMS. ~85% of DOs that apply for approval of their ACGME PG-1 have it approved on the first try.

I have lectured many times to DO students at one of the larger DO schools on how to get an ACGME residency.

45 states do NOT require a DO internship. A DO would only have to do an additional year if they were misinformed, as you are.

show me it in writing. post a link. shouldnt be hard to do if you claim its true. ive been to numerous websites including AOA and they say otherwise. because for now..... im gonna take what they said to me to my face as the truth.

why would they lie to all of us..... especially if it makes them look bad and discourages students?

your forgeting that i was told this at an actual school that i attended.......... not just from a rumor!!!!!!!!!

[Whaler]

Do you embrace the D.O. philosophy? A D.O. trys to take a different approach to treatment- I think that people often do not consider this when deciding on a medical school. Just a thought. I think both can help you to reach your goal. I think AUC is great.

[ed gee]

Yes, I am aware that you are an osteopathic school dropout (that can barely spell). www.fsmb.org has licensing information. Too, the osteopathic forum at www.studentdoctor.net has had posts on the five states that require an AOA internship for DOs to get licensed.

If you were told (within the last ten years) that any states besides MI, PA, OK, FL or WV require an AOA internship, you were misinformed.



"why would they lie to all of us..... especially if it makes them look bad and discourages students?

your forgeting that i was told this at an actual school that i attended.......... not just from a rumor!!!!!!!!![/quote]

[gtheofilis]

Your wrong about DOs in PA. I have a couple friends that are DOs and practice here. They do the exact same residency as the MDs.

I did have it confirmed a couple UPMC doctors that the order of preference id US MD, DO, then FMG.

[ed gee]

If the ACGME PG-1 is approved by the AOA, a DO does not have to do an AOA internship in the previously mentioned five states. The ACGME residency that employs me is in Philadelphia and I have assisted DOs in getting AOA approval to get a PA license. So, yes, DOs can do the exact same residencies as MDs in PA. However, to get a license in this state, they have to complete additional paperwork with the AOA (unless the program is dual accredited). They do not need AOA approval to do the residency.

[Scott1981]

Yes, I am aware that you are an osteopathic school dropout (that can barely spell). www.fsmb.org has licensing information. Too, the osteopathic forum at www.studentdoctor.net has had posts on the five states that require an AOA internship for DOs to get licensed.

If you were told (within the last ten years) that any states besides MI, PA, OK, FL or WV require an AOA internship, you were misinformed.



"why would they lie to all of us..... especially if it makes them look bad and discourages students?

your forgeting that i was told this at an actual school that i attended.......... not just from a rumor!!!!!!!!![/quote]


well, i think you can do without the sarcasm. it doesnt sound professional.
you can term me an osteopathic dropout all you want but dont try to insinuate that i failed out. i had roughly an 84 average in my classes when i left. i left because a immediate family member got very ill and i wanted to go home to be with them.

now on to the real subject here. i called one of my old professors there who i still keep in contact with. she did tell me that the school tries to emphasize doing the internship because of the circumstances around where the school is.
ill admit, i was misinformed........ the misinformation was given to me by the "spectacular" school that i went to. figured that they would skew the information. but anyways, hey i learned something............ my old school actually gives biased information at the orientation.

as i look at it now....... maybe the school gave that misinformation because it is located in florida. most of the students were from florida so they would have to do the internship regardless of if the did an allopathic residency or not. i would have still had to do it.

now, for the people that are gonna practice elsewhere........ in order to take advantage of the extra residency opportunities provided to DOs, you have to do the extra year. so yes, its easier to get derm as a DO but you gotta put in an extra year. although i was told that a few have a fast track program where it can count as the first year of the residency. im not sure how it works but i was told that most are not like this.

all in all, im still happy with my decesion not to go back to school there. the education is better here and i dont need to do the extra year of residency. im going IM so that shouldnt be hard to get either way.

ed gee,
as far as spelling goes, keep your wisecracks to yourself. this is an informal forum and we all type fast. we are not writing a term paper or anything here. :roll:

[Scott1981]

Q1: What's an Osteopathic Internship?

An Osteopathic Internship is a one year program that usually counts as your first year of residency. Internships are usually of the Traditional Rotating class - which covers all the basic areas of medicine and surgery.

To better understand how the internship is integrated into residencies, let's use a 3 year family medicine residency. If you do an osteopathic internship, then go to a (osteopathic or allopathic) family medicine residency program, you will enter as a second year resident -- assuming there is space available!

Most osteopathic programs will have an internship and residency at one facility and are managed as a single unit. You will normally complete your internship and then immediately start the residency at that facility. The transition is seamless.

It is important to note that during your internship year, you will need to apply to the residency, but this is often just a formality. This re-application process gives the program the ability to review their interns and reject applications from unsatisfactory interns. This is not unique to osteopathic programs -- if you perform poorly at an allopathic program, they will also suspend or fire you.

Q1a: Is the osteopathic internship just an additional year of postgrad training?

No. There is a common misconception that this is an additional year of training. As above, the internship is just the first year of a residency.

There is a catch; if you transfer to a program that will not accept the internship as your PGY-1, then you'll need to redo the year. However, most programs accept the internship as the first year -- the policy is usually set forth by the appropriate specialty board; for instance, see the American Board of Family Medicine's policy on this issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from what im seeing here. maybe we can get clarification.
so if you are in the states that dont require the extra year.............. you can jump into an allopthic program residency as 2nd year ONLY if they have space and are willing to do it. many dont have postions to fill as 2nd year. so its not a sure thing that you dont overall have to do an extra year even in an allopathic program out of the required states. im i missing something?

[rdecastro]

Q1: What's an Osteopathic Internship?

An Osteopathic Internship is a one year program that usually counts as your first year of residency. Internships are usually of the Traditional Rotating class - which covers all the basic areas of medicine and surgery.

To better understand how the internship is integrated into residencies, let's use a 3 year family medicine residency. If you do an osteopathic internship, then go to a (osteopathic or allopathic) family medicine residency program, you will enter as a second year resident -- assuming there is space available!

Most osteopathic programs will have an internship and residency at one facility and are managed as a single unit. You will normally complete your internship and then immediately start the residency at that facility. The transition is seamless.

It is important to note that during your internship year, you will need to apply to the residency, but this is often just a formality. This re-application process gives the program the ability to review their interns and reject applications from unsatisfactory interns. This is not unique to osteopathic programs -- if you perform poorly at an allopathic program, they will also suspend or fire you.

Q1a: Is the osteopathic internship just an additional year of postgrad training?

No. There is a common misconception that this is an additional year of training. As above, the internship is just the first year of a residency.

There is a catch; if you transfer to a program that will not accept the internship as your PGY-1, then you'll need to redo the year. However, most programs accept the internship as the first year -- the policy is usually set forth by the appropriate specialty board; for instance, see the American Board of Family Medicine's policy on this issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from what im seeing here. maybe we can get clarification.
so if you are in the states that dont require the extra year.............. you can jump into an allopthic program residency as 2nd year ONLY if they have space and are willing to do it. many dont have postions to fill as 2nd year. so its not a sure thing that you dont overall have to do an extra year even in an allopathic program out of the required states. im i missing something?

Its also pretty typical (it seems) to get approval for an allopathic residency to be approved as equivalent to the internship year, so if you get an allo residency you may not have any problems, except having to document the program and get approval.

And, there are only 5 states that require an osteopathic internship year, so if you want to not practice there, go for it

[Scott1981]

i guess my old school pushed it cause it was in florida.
i would have had to do it regardless becuae im from orlando. the funny thing is that even after all the lost time, i will still get my MD the exact time i would have gotten my DO if i stayed.

[Whaler]

repeat

[Whaler]

repeat

[Whaler]

[quote="CuriousCat"]This is JMO, but I would go to the US DO school over the carribean. Mainly because you wouldn't have to deal with such stereotypes."

I very much disagree with this statement. There are all sorts of D.O. stereotypes-- EX. are they chiropractors??, they are not "real doctors" etc. (I am not implying that you did not already know this). Much of this stems from lack of information about what a D.O. actually is.

I think you will find that the perception of a D.O. varies depending on region of the country.

[rdecastro]

i guess my old school pushed it cause it was in florida.
i would have had to do it regardless becuae im from orlando. the funny thing is that even after all the lost time, i will still get my MD the exact time i would have gotten my DO if i stayed.

There is a moderator on SDN (Quinn) who is a DO, is doing an EM residency in Florida (USF/Tampa), and got a waiver from the AOA for his internship.

[rdecastro]

[quote=CuriousCat]This is JMO, but I would go to the US DO school over the carribean. Mainly because you wouldn't have to deal with such stereotypes."

I very much disagree with this statement. There are all sorts of D.O. stereotypes-- EX. are they chiropractors??, they are not "real doctors" etc. (I am not implying that you did not already know this). Much of this stems from lack of information about what a D.O. actually is.

I think you will find that the perception of a D.O. varies depending on region of the country.

I agree. However the problem is that DO's themselves are unable to articulate clear distinctions between allopathic and osteopathic medicine. Combine that with the survey results that show the vast majority of DO's (>80%) NEVER use osteopathic manipulation in their practice, or perform any after school.

Plus, some of the osteopathic practice is just nonsensical - cranial manipulation with a force of 5 grams (the weight of two nickles)? Get real.

[Whaler]

oops

[AUCMD2006]

its not reimbursed by insurance companies and we all know patients would rather pay $100 for a psychic healer than $25 for a proceedure that may actually help more than the pills...but because the insurance covers the pills for $5.00 why pay the extra $20 when you have to save up for your nails, slot machines, cigarrettes, hair extensions, or my all time favorite: vitamins that are 99.99999999999% urinated or defecated out.

always amazes me that people have no probelm whatsoever spending $50 a month for cable, $50 a month for cell phone, $5.00 a few times a week for fast food, and countless other crap we don't really need but when it comes to paying a $10 or a $20 co pay some act like i am robbing them of their money.

how do i know these? worked for a DO, had every single of above situations happen. he usually gave them the option to have it done but rarely taken up on it......

[CuriousCat]

I agree with you Whaler. DO's do face some stereotypes, too. However, I don't think as bad as IMGs. I could have a different opinion because of the region of the country I live in. As you pointed out, different region = different opinions.

[Scott1981]

i guess my old school pushed it cause it was in florida.
i would have had to do it regardless becuae im from orlando. the funny thing is that even after all the lost time, i will still get my MD the exact time i would have gotten my DO if i stayed.

There is a moderator on SDN (Quinn) who is a DO, is doing an EM residency in Florida (USF/Tampa), and got a waiver from the AOA for his internship.

from looking at the lists of states that stipulate it for licensure, he may not be able to get an unrestricted license without the internship for the state of florida. i called my old professor at the DO school for clarification and she did correct me about what i thought was the rule all around the country. but she was pretty adament about florida requiring it for licensure. she said there are a couple of programs that are fast track approved for the state but that is about it.

[rdecastro]

i guess my old school pushed it cause it was in florida.
i would have had to do it regardless becuae im from orlando. the funny thing is that even after all the lost time, i will still get my MD the exact time i would have gotten my DO if i stayed.

There is a moderator on SDN (Quinn) who is a DO, is doing an EM residency in Florida (USF/Tampa), and got a waiver from the AOA for his internship.

from looking at the lists of states that stipulate it for licensure, he may not be able to get an unrestricted license without the internship for the state of florida. i called my old professor at the DO school for clarification and she did correct me about what i thought was the rule all around the country. but she was pretty adament about florida requiring it for licensure. she said there are a couple of programs that are fast track approved for the state but that is about it.

He got the waiver from AOA that says his allopathic residency PGY1 is equivalent to a DO PGY-1. Hence, if/when some state licensing board calls AOA to ask if he completed his internship, the answer is YES!