I am interested to hear from graduates who want to get calif

[CA advocate]

Please refer to my previous postings and if you are interested let me know. Thanks.

[PatPark]

To the individual calling him/herself "California Board," you're using a misleading name, as you're not an employee of the Medical Board of California. Furthermore, you should not mislead Spartan students and graduates into thinking that taking "legal action" or any other type of action against the California Board will result in licensure for Spartan graduates. There is nothing unfair about the California laws and regulations that prevent Spartan graduates from becoming licensed in California. You have no cause of action to litigate in court. The California Board disapproved Spartan in 1985. Spartan University appealed this action in court. In 1986, the court upheld the Board's disapproval of Spartan. The court told Spartan officials that they had the right to reapply to California. In the last 18 years, Spartan officials have chosen NOT to apply for recognition in California. That's their prerogative. Spartan's disapproved status in California is common knowledge. If an individual wants to train in or become licensed in California, he or she simply does not attend Spartan. It's as simple as that. There's nothing to argue about in court or anywhere else, and I'm not going to discuss this issue further.

[lswiltshire]

I really love this Pat Park lady and the California board.

the message is clear IN CALIFORNIA THEY LIKE DOCTORS TO GO TO PROPER MEDICAL SCHOOLS and not fake schools or bogus schools or scam schools with internet or long distance training

IN CALIFORNIA THEY SEND A VERY VERY CLEAR MESSAGE

OH IF ONLY THE OTHER BOARDS HAD SOME BALLS LIKE THE CALIFORNIA BOARD

[CA advocate]

My request was for the graduates of Spartan to replay to my message.
It is also anyones right to think and research through the process. Yes, Fortunelty Ms. Park you haven't formed a legislation to prohibit people from doing so.

It is truly a misfortune to have you go through this forum and have such a poor attitude towards people trying to find solutions and form their thoughts.

[shockandawe]

Ms. Parks,

I absolutely LOVE the title for your post: "No California Licensure". It reminds me of the famous Seinfeld show with the soup Nazi, "No Soup For You." :D

Let me start by saying that although we may disagree with each other, I still appreciate you taking the time to answer student and alumni questions on this forum and I hope that you will continue to provide us with information and help.


You should not mislead Spartan students and graduates into thinking that taking "legal action" or any other type of action against the California Board will result in licensure for Spartan graduates.

Are you sure? When this Spartan grad. challenged the Oklahoma state boards, it went to the state supreme court, they found the state boards to be "unconstitutional" and he won.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeID=49099


There is nothing unfair about the California laws and regulations that prevent Spartan graduates from becoming licensed in California.

Really... well.. You mean a graduate from the Univ. of Bagdad or Ethiopia or Afganistan can practice in the state of CA and we can't, is fair???

So if a Univ. of Bangladesh graduate barely passes his boards but completes residency in some little community hospital and a Spartan grad gets 90's on his boards and does his residency at the Top Residency program, the Mayo Clinic or Harvard, you think its fair that the sub-par Bangladesh grad can practice in CA and the Top Notch Spartan grad cannot??? Nope, I do not agree here...


You have no cause of action to litigate in court.

Cause of Action: DISCRIMINATION


There's nothing to argue about in court or anywhere else

I sense fear... People like California Advocate and "october" from UNIBE should be given a chance. I am sure that they would make an excellent addition to your health care system.


I'm not going to discuss this issue further.

You must have anticipated me but it was an honor to have you, even if just for a short time only... -s&a

[Scott1981]

i emailed the texas state board about their list of "schools" that that dont need to prove equivalency. i dont understand and can not see the reasoning behind having the list when most of the schools are from 5th world countries that have ZERO facilities. they have university of kabul in afghanistan listed as equivalent to texas med schools. these schools probably dont even have one hundreth the infrastructure of the worst medical school in the caribbean.

but yet they dont need site visit etc to get approved.
i do believe site visits are necessary to protect patient from doctors with inadequate training. but they all need to be evaluated and not just the caribbean schools. if you only require the carib schools to go through this then that is discrimination. they need to make that list a heck of a lot smaller or dont have it at all.

on the texas website, they claim that they are protecting the patients with the list. if they are actually using that list, then it is quite a poor job because they are allowing doctors practice there that could have came from a medical school without even a single wall standing.

[ZAATARI]

I believe that anyone living in this great country of ours should still enjoy the freedom to express his/her opinion and ask questions even if they are Spartan students and Alumni,although I might agree with the CA state official that the only way to get to CA is to reapply like everybody else and the board members are reasonable and fair but I find it unusual to have a public forum for students to exchange questions monitored by government officials[?homeland security reasons?],anyone has the right to waste their money and seeks legal advise if they wish to do it,I have great respect to the medical boards and admire them for their public service but they are not always right as seen in the OK case.
I believe that efforts should be concentrated on the application process and preparing for site visit by CA board and it can be done .
However in relation to Texas new laws that a school must be equivalent to Texas schools ,I believe the Hon.Supreme court judges already given their opinion in this matter.
trial& Supreme court opinion on requesting a foreign school standards to be equivalent to state med school standards:

The trial court found that Subsection B of 59 O.S. Supp. 1997 § 493.2, which provides that a foreign applicant’s training shall have been " . . . based on satisfactory completion of educational programs from a school with education and training substantially equivalent to that offered by the University of Oklahoma College of Medicine," was unconstitutionally vague. The trial court also found, however, that Dr. ___ had proved that his training had been substantially similar to that offered by the University of Oklahoma College of Medicine. Because the record supports the trial court’s finding that Dr.____ medical training qualifies him for a medical license, we assume for the purposes of this opinion that 59 O.S. 493.2. is constitutional and expressly decline to address here the issue of its constitutionality.
[I have read few TX meetings minutes and the board have approved non approved schools applicants based on residency and BC].

Protecting the public?
I was reading a medical journal discussing public safety and licensure ,during the FSMB meeting and the president of the board asked all direcors in all the states: you all have different rules to protect your public ,who thinks that they are protecting their citizens well?everyone raised their hand.Florida officials allowed large number of Spartan Alumni to get license,one started the largest best cardiology group in Miami,the other recieved best Radiology resident award,a third voted best physician in his hospital,fourth started international cancer prevention program,
a fith started largest contract co to test latest phase drugs testing pharm co helping millions to heal.therefore I believe any state preventing such exceptional alumni that saved thousands of lives are hurting not protecting their citizens especially in the underserved areas.

Desclaimer: Above are personal thoughts and not an advise to anyone.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[teratos]

You have no cause of action to litigate in court.

Cause of Action: DISCRIMINATION




That isn't discrimnation. When two things are equal, and one is picked based on color, religion, ethnicity, that is discrimination. When a state inspects a school and finds that its facilities are sub-par, and that the education recieved doesn't meet standards they have set, that is NOT discrimination.

If someone wnats to practice in CA, there are 4 options in the caribbean. Choose one. If you don't, it is like buying an orange and then crying becasue it doesn't taste like an apple. If you "didn't know", then shame on you for not researching one of the biggest (and most expensive) decisions of your life.

You may be able to start some legal action, and you may be able to win. Does that make it right? I'm sure there are some very competent docs who come from Spartan, as mentioned in the above posts. I'm sure there are a lot that suck. CA is a state, and as set forth in the constitution, has a right to regulate what happens in that state. G

[shockandawe]

You have no cause of action to litigate in court.

Cause of Action: DISCRIMINATION




That isn't discrimnation. When two things are equal, and one is picked based on color, religion, ethnicity, that is discrimination. When a state inspects a school and finds that its facilities are sub-par, and that the education recieved doesn't meet standards they have set, that is NOT discrimination.

If someone wnats to practice in CA, there are 4 options in the caribbean. Choose one. If you don't, it is like buying an orange and then crying becasue it doesn't taste like an apple. If you "didn't know", then shame on you for not researching one of the biggest (and most expensive) decisions of your life.

You may be able to start some legal action, and you may be able to win. Does that make it right? I'm sure there are some very competent docs who come from Spartan, as mentioned in the above posts. I'm sure there are a lot that suck. CA is a state, and as set forth in the constitution, has a right to regulate what happens in that state. G


If three people walk into a store, one from St. Lucia, another from Syria, another from Iraq and store manager strip searches the St. Lucian, that is discrimination.. The St. Lucian medical school, as part of the country, cannot be strip searched without strip searching ALL of the medical schools.

Another thing Teratos, if CA thought Spartan was sub-par way back in the early 80's, I wonder what they would think of the Ethiopian school of medicine?? I am sure that they have good doctors from the Univ. of Ethiopia and doctors that suck, JUST LIKE EVERYWHERE ELSE!!!! -s&a

[shockandawe]

What we need guys and gals, is one centeral agency, such as the Federation of State Medical Boards, to set a fair standard or guideline for ALL international medical schools to follow. And ALL the states can just go with it.

This guideline would for example say: There needs to be a student to cadaver ratio of 5 to 1. A school of X amount of people needs to have X amount of books. Teachers need X qualifications.. etc, etc..

The schools can then apply directly to one single place for approval and we can end all of this wild, wild west stuff that is going on right now.. -s&a

[rdecastro]

You have no cause of action to litigate in court.

Cause of Action: DISCRIMINATION




That isn't discrimnation. When two things are equal, and one is picked based on color, religion, ethnicity, that is discrimination. When a state inspects a school and finds that its facilities are sub-par, and that the education recieved doesn't meet standards they have set, that is NOT discrimination.

If someone wnats to practice in CA, there are 4 options in the caribbean. Choose one. If you don't, it is like buying an orange and then crying becasue it doesn't taste like an apple. If you "didn't know", then shame on you for not researching one of the biggest (and most expensive) decisions of your life.

You may be able to start some legal action, and you may be able to win. Does that make it right? I'm sure there are some very competent docs who come from Spartan, as mentioned in the above posts. I'm sure there are a lot that suck. CA is a state, and as set forth in the constitution, has a right to regulate what happens in that state. G


Not only that, but if a suit by Spartan grads were to be filed, it would be dismissed summarily since Spartan hasn't attempted all the recourse available under existing CA laws and CA Med Bd regulations - that is, they haven't bothered to apply for approval.

So, go ahead, waste your money and make the payments on some lawyers BMW, but it won't get you anywhere.

[shockandawe]

By having the Federation of State Medical Boards be in charge of approval and set a fair guideline, we will decrease the amount of money spent on individual states. We will also decrease the amount of litigation and all the international medical schools will have to comply. Just as the individual states will have to comply, otherwise, they will risk being sued.. (Remember Oklahomaaaa...) The FSMB is the future.. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

efforts should be concentrated on preperation for inspections and site visit and not on legal issues[although I was told the doctor from OK was told by state officials "do not waste your money" but if you want to sue your doctor you would not ask this doctor if you have a case or not, you simply go to a lawyer].
Anyone has the current requirements for CA?Just follow the recommendations,when I was overseas the Joint Committe of accreditation of US hospitals restarted approving certain international hospitals,we got the requirements,prepared and when they came we were ready and get approval.If Spartan is not interested in this then you know you are simply taking big risk in your career.For us who graduated before even the school was disapproved[before June 85] we still have to pay the price even if we voted #1 physician in the USA........its not the low tuition attraction anymore,I know if the FSMB outcome is negative,I will just seek adminstrative career.

[CA advocate]

Thanks for the info S&W. I have recently found this site and it is amazing how most of the individual signed on are not even Spartan Grduates!!

Where does this fear come from? Are some afraid to lose their jobs?
Or is it the lack of experience?

The bottom line is that a federal goverment taking over may be a great idea. I believe state specified medical board is needed as a regulation. But picking and choosing is another form of discrimination. All foreign grads go through training here and are compared equally through the process and even next to an American grad. So, if one is talking about patient care than focus on the post graduate studies and evaluations where, you are directly involved with patient care,and not at the 2 years of science where almost all the textbooks are equal in calibar if instructed in English. So, please look at this without discrimination. Reevaluate what are the state boards regulating??

[Picard]

Bringing up Oklahoma case is moot.
What you need to understand is this -- the US Constitution is very clear -- powers not specifically delegated to the federal government shall remain in the domain of each individual state. This means LICENSURE, of any profession, any activity (such as concealed weapons permit, drivers license). Each individual state is allowed to set its own rules and regulations in licensure. Oklahoma medical licensure laws has absolutely no impact on California laws. Two completely different issues. The fact that the Spartan grad won in Oklahoma has ABSOLUTELY NO impact on what that same graduate can do in California. California courts have consistantly upheld the current CA legislation as constitutional under California law. Comparing Iraq/Syria...etc graduates are simply the wrong comparison under California law. Current California law aims to regulate foreign schools whose sole purpose is to import graduates into the US. Last I look, schools in Iraq/Syria... etc are not exporting 95+ percent of their graduates into the US. California law makes a very clear distinction between "domestic medical schools" (medical schools whose purpose is to train local physicians to work in the country where the school is located) and schools whose sole purpose is to educate Americans to come back into the US -- and courts have consistantly decided that this is a fair distinction, and the state has every right to regulate schools whose sole purpose is to train Americans to work in the US. In addition, California did not blanketly ban all off shore schools -- it has established a set of requirements that these schools need to meet to be eligible, and apply them evenly to schools THAT TRAIN AMERICANS TO WORK IN THE US. Spartan grads shouldn't blame the California board for their inability to be licensed in California -- you need to blame your own school for NOT seeking re-evaluation AFTER it was found substandard. Spartan has had 18 years to rectify the situation and simply failed to act. Don't blame the California Medical Board -- problem is not with them, it's with your school's inaction. And if you really wanted to practice in California, you should have gone to a school that the state approves. The approved school list is not a secret. You should have known better and done your research before you picked your school if you wanted to work in California.

Again, licensure is in the domain of each individual state. Give you a further example -- when I was in law enforcement, we heard all the time that out-of-state cops were jailed in NY or NJ for carrying their duty weapon on vacation. NYPD cops also loved to jail NJ cops who went into their city armed... and NJ cops loved to jail NYPD officers who live in NJ and were merely carrying their duty weapon home after work. Their badge and ID stated very clearly that they are commissioned peace officers from California, Nevada, Arizona, Conneticut... etc. Their training and experiences as peace officers do not cease to exist at the state border... some of them are even REQUIRED to be armed 24/7 in their home state... but guess what, their credential ("licensure" if you will) for their profession ends at their state border. Other states are under no obligation to honor them. And if a 20+ year NYPD officer wants to move to California and be a cop in California -- guess what -- he or she will need to attend the full police academy IN CALIFORNIA all over again, like every other rookie in California. His NY credential/education/experience means absolutely nothing in California. Same goes for most other states. It's perfectly constitutional. Licensure of professions have always been, and will always be, in the state's domain.

P

[teratos]

It still isn't discrimination. hey are excluding Spartan grads based on the perceived quality of their education. If they accepted on Spartan grad because he is white, and refused another because he is of middle eastern descent, then that would be one thing.

I know what you are saying, I think they should look at each person individually, rather than ban a school. Residency is really what makes a doctor, not med school. Bottom line is that the states have the right to regulate licensing of docs. I suspect that if you raise a big stink, then states will look at a uniform licensing system. Wht they would most likely do is adopt the guidelines of the most stringent state. (States like NM have) That would be CA. Then where would that leave you? G

[teratos]

oops, double post

[shockandawe]

sorry... error..

[shockandawe]

sorry.. error..

[shockandawe]

The OK supreme court disagreed with ALL of you guys and called the OK state boards "unconstitutional".

Discrimination is not only based on color, race and ethnicity. There is all kinds of discrimination against all kinds of stuff, such as against sex, against fat people, against handicapped people, mentally challenged people, short people, etc, etc, etc... You cannot discriminate against certain countries schools only. Especially when there are a lot of really crappy 10th world country medical schools out there which are being approved every single day, in the state of CA...

We have St. Lucian people in our school that cannot afford the tuition nor the distance all the way to other schools that are CA approved such as the University of Baghdad.. So what if 90% of the regular students will practice in the USA. The Univ. of Iran has tons of licensed grads in CA, more than AUC and Ross combined and they cannot even do a simple pelvic exam, because they were not allowed to touch female patients.

Some countries do not even have a single MRI, in the whole country and their grads are licensed in CA. I did my rotations at excellent hospitals thru-out the USA, aced my boards and made it into one of the top University hospitals in this nation, beating out top USA graduates, in a very extremely competitive field. Although, I care zero about ever practicing in CA, I should be able to, should I ever make the choice...

You wrote Teratos: CA is a state, and as set forth in the constitution, has a right to regulate what happens in that state.

Well. I would like to see what you would say if the state of CA boards make up a new policy, "NO MORE CARIB GRADS PERIOD." or "NO MORE FOREIGN GRADS PERIOD." I am sure that you would change your tune.. Then it would be discrimination, right...

Anyway, I do not know why you guys (CA state boards and people from approved schools) are sooo scared of California Advocate??? Are you afraid of a repeat Oklahoma???

Oh and another thing Picard, if anything your story about the cops arresting each other, only showed how stupid licensing boards can be and why it is so important to contest them... -s&a

[ZAATARI]

Just a brief reply for the person who stated CA inspect schools that import most of their grad to US...I think that was unrealistic observation because all it take is ONE doctor to harm a patient regardless where he/she comes from........so lets not evaulate Sudan remote area univ because they import 5 doctors a yr but evaluate X Carribean university because they import 7 doctors /yr!!!!!!!!!!!

[shockandawe]

Just a brief reply for the person who stated CA inspect schools that import most of their grad to US...I think that was unrealistic observation because all it take is ONE doctor to harm a patient regardless where he/she comes from........so lets not evaulate Sudan remote area univ because they import 5 doctors a yr but evaluate X Carribean university because they import 7 doctors /yr!!!!!!!!!!!

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!! -s&a

[Scott1981]

personally, i think all foreign schools should be evaluated. i dont agree with afghanistan and schools alike being approved. just because they dont frequently have students from there ask for a license, does not mean that the door should be open.

i feel that if sombody is applying from ANY foreign school, CA should do a school review if it was not already reviewed from a previous applicant who was accepted for a license.

now i know it takes money to get these site visits done. if your school is willing to pay for that visit, then more power to them....... but they shouldnt be obligated to pay and neither should the CA board.

the student who wants the license should finance the visit if he or she wants it that bad.

students should identify schools that are not approved and are not willing to pay. if the student really wants the license from CA at least it wouldnt be a closed door for them. but that may be a lot of money to fork over for a visit so choose your school wisely.

JUST MY OPINION

[CA advocate]

Well, thanks for mentioning the laws related to carrying arms in different states by cops. I just happened to sit by a cop on a plane ride and he shared this new law that it has b/c a federal law and cops could carry their weapons to different states!!! At the time I wasn't greatly interested in the information, but it has helped me to reason with your argument at this time.

Laws and regulations are updated and changed with time and understandings. So please lets' try to be openminded. If one is qualified to treatResidents of AZ, FL, D.C and.... which justified law and regulation should prevent one to treat residents of CA? Does this make sense?[/quote][/list]

[shockandawe]

personally, i think all foreign schools should be evaluated. i dont agree with afghanistan and schools alike being approved. just because they dont frequently have students from there ask for a license, does not mean that the door should be open.

i feel that if sombody is applying from ANY foreign school, CA should do a school review if it was not already reviewed from a previous applicant who was accepted for a license.

now i know it takes money to get these site visits done. if your school is willing to pay for that visit, then more power to them....... but they shouldnt be obligated to pay and neither should the CA board.

the student who wants the license should finance the visit if he or she wants it that bad.

students should identify schools that are not approved and are not willing to pay. if the student really wants the license from CA at least it wouldnt be a closed door for them. but that may be a lot of money to fork over for a visit so choose your school wisely.

JUST MY OPINION

I'm sure you would agree that it would be much better if we just had ONE state agency that would go to the schools and review the schools, such as the Federation of State Medcial Boards. That would save everyone a lot of money.. Also that would set internation guidelines, for everyone to abide by.. -s&a

[CA advocate]

Well, thanks for mentioning the laws related to carrying arms in different states by cops. I just happened to sit next to a cop on a plane ride and he shared this new law that it has b/c a federal law and cops could carry their weapons to different states!!! At the time I wasn't greatly interested in the information, but it has helped me to reason with your argument at this time.

Laws and regulations are updated and changed with time and understandings. So please lets' try to be open minded. If one is qualified to treat residents of AZ, FL, D.C and.... which justified law and regulation should prevent one to treat residents of CA? Does this make sense?

[ZAATARI]

to California law makers:
As a citizen,Tax payer,and personally visited many of third world countries schools and found it to be a joke ,If I go to any emergency room sick I do not want any doctor from poor understaffed medical school from third world country until his/her med school pass your site visit,and that is your responsibility to assure my safety.

[ZAATARI]

I still believe Spartan and its Alumni has only one 2 options to go to CA either by actively pursuing CA application for approval or second MD from CA approved school.I was sitting tonight in a Chinese resturant with my family and was thinking back about my premed life and how most people got 2.5GPA went to Syria[scholorship from Baath party]Egypt,Romania,Bulguria,USSR,and we the good GPA STUDENTS WENT TO pLACES LIKE AUB or St Joseph school in Bierut,and funny that THEY all came from the former comminist countries unable to be licensed in Bierut but I can yet can't in CA[Strange loop].also I was thinking from a comments one person made earlier that the Carribean imports lots of doctors but other countries do not,thinking more about it I think that is not true because you get lets say 20 carribeans for license and 60 south americans,20 middle east...etc so you get more from non carribean.
Also when I took my certification boards in speciality and sub speciality I was told by the American boards of med specialities being board certified is the most reliable thing to assure public safety and certify that a doctor is expert in his field[I quess they told me wrong info]
the good news I have zero interest in going to CA and advise people to pursue approval by the routine channels and applications.

[neilc]

it is simple...if you want to work in cal, go to an approved school. if your school cannot pass a site visit, your school is seriously defecient. it is NOT that expensive. the application is free, you pay for a team to come down for a few days and visit. those schools that claim cost is a factor are nuts. think of the increase in revenue! just one extra student that comes if a school is approved will more than cover the cost of the visit.

you guys are looking to the wrong people. the CA board is doing a good thing. the folks that should be getting the attention are the greedy school owners. there is NO reason not to pay for the visit. i see no problem with a state looking to verify that a school has reasonable facilities, faculty and admin before allowing its grads to practice there.

[wolfvgang22]

Sorry Teratos, Picard.... I don't mean to be a turn-coat, but:

After reading this whole thread, I have to agree with shock&awe, Zaatari, and Scott1981. Though I usually disagree with these guys, I think they are right about the fact that it is not ethical to have schools in Africa and the Middle East that are even worse than Spartan eligible for licensure over Spartan.

It makes more sense to me to license students who do their clinicals and residencies in US hospitals, supervised by US attendings, than people from the turbulent and poverty-ridden middle east and Africa, who may have learned surgery using a chicken in a mud-hut next door to the guy making car bombs, for all I know.
Better to deal with the devil you know than the one you don't, right?

If not, then all schools should be banned until given specific approval based on a site inspection.

[shockandawe]

But I just love how Picard tries to rationalize the discrimination:

California did not blanketly ban all off shore schools -- it has established a set of requirements that these schools need to meet to be eligible, and apply them evenly to schools THAT TRAIN AMERICANS TO WORK IN THE US.

Huh?? What??? So only the medical schools that specifically prepare you for residency in the USA should be targeted. On the contrary, I think you better go do a site visit of the University of Congo...

And if you really wanted to practice in California, you should have gone to a school that the state approves. The approved school list is not a secret.

It actually was a secret until now Picard, however, I will give you a selection of the list:

1- Congo Health Sciences

2- Abu-Syria School of Medicine

3- University of Somalia

4- Universidad de Siberia

5- Cambodia University

6- Burma School of medicine

7- Sudan Health Sciences

8- University of Greenland

9- Antartica Health Sciences

10- North Pole School of Medicine


These schools are all approved for licensure in the state of California. So guys, please stop your whining... :D

[wolfvgang22]

it is simple...if you want to work in cal, go to an approved school. if your school cannot pass a site visit, your school is seriously defecient. it is NOT that expensive. the application is free, you pay for a team to come down for a few days and visit. those schools that claim cost is a factor are nuts. think of the increase in revenue! just one extra student that comes if a school is approved will more than cover the cost of the visit.

you guys are looking to the wrong people. the CA board is doing a good thing. the folks that should be getting the attention are the greedy school owners. there is NO reason not to pay for the visit. i see no problem with a state looking to verify that a school has reasonable facilities, faculty and admin before allowing its grads to practice there.
You're right Niel. Spartan should pay for a visit. But that does not let CA off of the hook for having schools in Asia and Africa on the approved list that the state has never visited.
It may be legal, but it's not ethical.

[neilc]

it is simple...if you want to work in cal, go to an approved school. if your school cannot pass a site visit, your school is seriously defecient. it is NOT that expensive. the application is free, you pay for a team to come down for a few days and visit. those schools that claim cost is a factor are nuts. think of the increase in revenue! just one extra student that comes if a school is approved will more than cover the cost of the visit.

you guys are looking to the wrong people. the CA board is doing a good thing. the folks that should be getting the attention are the greedy school owners. there is NO reason not to pay for the visit. i see no problem with a state looking to verify that a school has reasonable facilities, faculty and admin before allowing its grads to practice there.
You're right Niel. Spartan should pay for a visit. But that does not let CA off of the hook for having schools in Asia and Africa on the approved list that the state has never visited.
It may be legal, but it's not ethical.

i think it is fine. basically, the state is saying that if your school is targeting US students (such as the carib, and the english language schools in EE) and is not primarily educating doctors to work in that country, we need to check it out.

call the state and find out the reason. maybe it grandfathered in schools that existed for x number of years. maybe not. it really does not matter. the rules are in place. everyone here knew about them when they decided to go to school.

arguing about this is so foolish. go ahead, sue the state. i can assure you it will go nowhere. what would the grounds be? spartan is approved and uni of baghdad is not? i am sure the state has a reason for this, such as uni of baghdad primarily educates iraqi doctors. if the school offers enough resources and training to fully train doctors to work in iraq, than we can accept them for postgraduate training as well. spartan does not do this. they offer a course geared toward US citizens planning to return to the states. the make a ton of money off of this. if they aim to send all these folks back to the states, then cali has every right to make sure the facilities are up to snuff. if spartan can't pass, or won't pay, then shame on them and too bad for the suckers that went there. simple.

as a citizen of cali, i have no problem with all of this. my school came up with the money, and they have an identical program with the only difference being the language of instruction. we still needed to apply! and, it happened.

all this whining will get you nowhere. if you want to work in cali, go to an approved school. if you don't, you are a fool. period. if it is so unfair, sue the state. waste more time and money.

it blows my mind what people find to complain about! the rules are very simple, and very public.

DO NOT LIMIT YOURSELF! GO TO AN APPROVED SCHOOL! EVEN IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU WANT TO WORK IN CALI!

[shockandawe]

I have decided that CA licensure is very important to me. My achievements are not enough...

Thus I have decided to seek another degree at an approved medical university with enough prestige to obtain CA approval. I will be leaving to seek a second MD from Zimbabwe School of Medicine. It was nice knowing you all.. Goodbye.. -s&a

[neilc]

I have decided that CA licensure is very important to me. My achievements are not enough...

Thus I have decided to seek another degree at an approved medical university with enough prestige to obtain CA approval. I will be leaving to seek a second MD from Zimbabwe School of Medicine. It was nice knowing you all.. Goodbye.. -s&a

a smarter person would likely have realized that it is foolish to limit your opportunities, and attended a fully recognized school from the begining.

and, i have a feeling that zimbabwe school of medicine is a much better school than spartan.

[shockandawe]

I have decided that CA licensure is very important to me. My achievements are not enough...

Thus I have decided to seek another degree at an approved medical university with enough prestige to obtain CA approval. I will be leaving to seek a second MD from Zimbabwe School of Medicine. It was nice knowing you all.. Goodbye.. -s&a

a smarter person would likely have realized that it is foolish to limit your opportunities, and attended a fully recognized school from the begining.

and, i have a feeling that zimbabwe school of medicine is a much better school than spartan.

Neilc getting mad??? But why? -s&a

[shockandawe]

I have decided that CA licensure is very important to me. My achievements are not enough...

Thus I have decided to seek another degree at an approved medical university with enough prestige to obtain CA approval. I will be leaving to seek a second MD from Zimbabwe School of Medicine. It was nice knowing you all.. Goodbye.. -s&a

a smarter person would likely have realized that it is foolish to limit your opportunities, and attended a fully recognized school from the begining.

and, i have a feeling that zimbabwe school of medicine is a much better school than spartan.

Neilc, you are definitely my favorite moderator... I love your moderating abilities.. -s&a

[shockandawe]

I hear the Univ of Zimbabwe has a campus in the czech republic.. That must be how you got CA approval, neilc...

I changed my mind, I think I want to go to Charles University in the Czech Rebublic in order to achieve your extraordinary level of education and so I can be just like you. -s&a

[Picard]

California did not blanketly ban all off shore schools -- it has established a set of requirements that these schools need to meet to be eligible, and apply them evenly to schools THAT TRAIN AMERICANS TO WORK IN THE US.

Huh?? What??? So only the medical schools that specifically prepare you for residency in the USA should be targeted. On the contrary, I think you better go do a site visit of the University of Congo...


What part of that doesn't make sense to you? If a school is targeting Americans as student, teaches medicine in US style, and exports nearly ALL of its graduates into the US, can you blame the US wanting to regulate the quality of such school?

On the other hand, University of Bagddad, University of Somalia... etc are NOT educating doctors to practice in the US. They are true domecil schools that could CARELESS WHAT THE US THINK OF THEM. They don't depend on American money to operate, they don't educate Americans to practice in the US. Most of their graduates probably cannot practice in the US anyways because most of them probably won't be able to pass USMLE, NOR DO THEY WANT TO. So, what's the point of asking these schools to submit to California inspection? Their graduates will simply be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and guess what, many of them are turn away. Caribbean schools, on the other hand, churn out hundreds, if not thousands of graduates each year heading into the US -- of course the US will want to regulate them.

California's distinction of "domecil medical school" vs "off shore schools targeting Americans" have been upheld again and again. That speaks much louder than what we say here. AND SPARTAN CHOSE NOT TO PURSUIT IT... and now Spartan grads want to turn around and blame California for not being fair? Blame your school, not the boards.

Do I think board certification speaks more to your ability -- of course I do. Do I think you ought to be able to be licensed in every state if you are board certified? Of course I do. But that's simply not the reality now and what I have a problem with is folks giving the illusion that potential students can just plan on suing XYZ state boards to get their license no matter where they go to school -- THAT is what I disagree with, because there will be many disappointed students.

Well, thanks for mentioning the laws related to carrying arms in different states by cops. I just happened to sit next to a cop on a plane ride and he shared this new law that it has b/c a federal law and cops could carry their weapons to different states!!! At the time I wasn't greatly interested in the information, but it has helped me to reason with your argument at this time.

Yes, I am aware of this law, it's called HR-218, just signed into law by W. in July/August. Guess what, it's so poorly written it will be in the courts system for the forseeable future. AND, make no mistake about it, HR218 does NOT extend the ability to "practice law enforcement" outside of an officer's jurisdiction. California cops don't suddenly become "federal cops" under this law. It simply allows off-duty officers to carry their guns into other states AS A CIVILIAN, which most states allowed (abeit some not formally) before the signning of HR218 anyways. Out-of-state officers still CANNOT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS POLICE OFFICERS outside of their state, and MAY NOT TAKE ANY POLICE ACTIONS outside of their state/jurisdiction. And the TSA still does NOT allow non-federal peace officers to carry guns on board airplanes because HR218 does NOT extend the practice of law enforcement.

P

[shockandawe]

Caribbean schools, on the other hand, churn out hundreds, if not thousands of graduates each year heading into the US -- of course the US will want to regulate them.

Actually, Picard most IMG's coming into and practicing in the USA are from other foreign schools, other than the carib.

I don't know why you guys are becoming schizophrenic about this.. In Oklahoma, it was found to be "unconstitutional". -s&a

[ZAATARI]

SHOCKANDAWE: Before you go to czech republic schools or any in Bulgaria,Romania all not eligible for licensure in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia[I was member of both boards] please do your home work before your get your second MD..............

[shockandawe]

Sorry Teratos, Picard.... I don't mean to be a turn-coat, but:

After reading this whole thread, I have to agree with shock&awe, Zaatari, and Scott1981. Though I usually disagree with these guys, I think they are right about the fact that it is not ethical to have schools in Africa and the Middle East that are even worse than Spartan eligible for licensure over Spartan.

It makes more sense to me to license students who do their clinicals and residencies in US hospitals, supervised by US attendings, than people from the turbulent and poverty-ridden middle east and Africa, who may have learned surgery using a chicken in a mud-hut next door to the guy making car bombs, for all I know.
Better to deal with the devil you know than the one you don't, right?

If not, then all schools should be banned until given specific approval based on a site inspection.


wolfgang,

CA already needs physicians in underserved areas (they are even giving Mexican doctors, with no step 1 or step 2, money to come and practice medicine in some of those areas.), if they banned IMG's that would be a big problem.

The best solution would be if they turn it over to the Federation of State Medical Boards and the FSMB sets a guideline which ALL the states can accept and all the internation medical schools can comply by.

If everytime a new state, Texas or wherever says " We ain't taking Carib, grads unless..." So much time, energy and MONEY has to go into paying the individual states for site visits and paperwork, paperwork, paperwork.... All they have to do is work together with the FSMB.

More, if off-shore medical schools have 1 major guideline drawn out for them, it will be easier for them to follow it. It is the best solution for this problem. As is, the system is not working and there will be plenty of litigation. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

Most IMG's comming from non carribean schools than carribean schools ,this one I can guarantee.

[shockandawe]

SHOCKANDAWE: Before you go to czech republic schools or any in Bulgaria,Romania all not eligible for licensure in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia[I was member of both boards] please do your home work before your get your second MD..............

Thanks ZAATARI, I guess that means I will not be going to neilc's school. Besides, I don't like the weather there anyway. I am sure neilc is going to be upset. Oh well, anyway, I have my eye on the University of Malaysia, if you are late to class, you get whipped in public. I am sure they would have an excellent system for preparation for working in the USA. My patients better not be late to their appointments. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

seriously,I think we should write a letter of concern to the president of FSMB and asking for equal rights and evaluation based on credentials and not school of origin.

[shockandawe]

seriously,I think we should write a letter of concern to the president of FSMB and asking for equal rights and evaluation based on credentials and not school of origin.

You sound like you are getting scared for your health ZAATARI. Imagine, if you get sick in California and they need to work on you, but because the hospital couldn't take the BEST and most qualified resident who happened to be from an unapproved school, you could end up with a resident who failed his boards multiple times, from the University of Mongolia working on you. I'm telling you, we have to protect our public. I'm even getting scared.. -s&a

[shockandawe]

Really, I think you should let the hospitals decide who the best candidate is, NOT the CA board... But then again, if I was a CA board member, I would call out the carib schools. Think about it, FREE TRIP TO THE CARIB for a "site visit". -s&a

[CA advocate]

I am amazed at some of the people suggesting to go back to a school approved by CA! Ironically suggested mostly by other foreign grads.

What is the reason of going to the 2 years of basic sciences? Isn't the knowledge related to apply them to clinical practice during the following 2 years, which mostly are done in ACGME approved hospitals in US.

Later being tested by multiple board steps in United States Medical licensure Examination. Further, start direct patient care in an approved ACGME approved hospital side by side of an american Grad and get evalutated by same supervisors. Later board certified in the Specialty that you were trained...

And be licensed in most states, AZ, Fl, D.C. TN, IL,....... and treat patients of these residents

And CA prohibiting such individuals?????

Now suggestions from people to go back to medical school for what purpose?

It really makes no sense. It's about a trip maybe as S&W indicated, or simply discrimination.

[neilc]

I am amazed at some of the people suggesting to go back to a school approved by CA! Ironically suggested mostly by other foreign grads.

What is the reason of going to the 2 years of basic sciences? Isn't the knowledge related to apply them to clinical practice during the following 2 years, which mostly are done in ACGME approved hospitals in US.

Later being tested by multiple board steps in United States Medical licensure Examination. Further, start direct patient care in an approved ACGME approved hospital side by side of an american Grad and get evalutated by same supervisors. Later board certified in the Specialty that you were trained...

And be licensed in most states, AZ, Fl, D.C. TN, IL,....... and treat patients of these residents

And CA prohibiting such individuals?????

Now suggestions from people to go back to medical school for what purpose?

It really makes no sense. It's about a trip maybe as S&W indicated, or simply discrimination.

not suggesting to go back to school. suggesting people pick better the first time.

these are not new rules. nor are they unreasonable. it is much more likely that other states will become more stringent in the requirements than to expect california will become more open.

in short, best of luck with any challenge. however, i highly doubt it will get you anywhere. the best advice remains, go to a school that will not limit you in getting licensed. go to a school approved in all states now, regardless of where you may want to practice. it is absolutely foolish to attend a school that has any such limitations. it either indicates the school has a lazy admin, poor finances, or that the school would not pass an evaluation.

the main point is that you guys are complaining about the wrong thing. the CA board is doing a good job. the SCHOOLS that do not apply, or cannot pass are the problem. hassle the school, you have an infinitely greater chance of convincing them to apply than you do changing a law in california.

[shockandawe]

I am amazed at some of the people suggesting to go back to a school approved by CA! Ironically suggested mostly by other foreign grads.

What is the reason of going to the 2 years of basic sciences? Isn't the knowledge related to apply them to clinical practice during the following 2 years, which mostly are done in ACGME approved hospitals in US.

Later being tested by multiple board steps in United States Medical licensure Examination. Further, start direct patient care in an approved ACGME approved hospital side by side of an american Grad and get evalutated by same supervisors. Later board certified in the Specialty that you were trained...

And be licensed in most states, AZ, Fl, D.C. TN, IL,....... and treat patients of these residents

And CA prohibiting such individuals?????

Now suggestions from people to go back to medical school for what purpose?

It really makes no sense. It's about a trip maybe as S&W indicated, or simply discrimination.

not suggesting to go back to school. suggesting people pick better the first time.

these are not new rules. nor are they unreasonable. it is much more likely that other states will become more stringent in the requirements than to expect california will become more open.

in short, best of luck with any challenge. however, i highly doubt it will get you anywhere. the best advice remains, go to a school that will not limit you in getting licensed. go to a school approved in all states now, regardless of where you may want to practice. it is absolutely foolish to attend a school that has any such limitations. it either indicates the school has a lazy admin, poor finances, or that the school would not pass an evaluation.

the main point is that you guys are complaining about the wrong thing. the CA board is doing a good job. the SCHOOLS that do not apply, or cannot pass are the problem. hassle the school, you have an infinitely greater chance of convincing them to apply than you do changing a law in california.


I agree with you Neilc, that our schools should apply and that it is better to start with a school that has all 50 state approval. But I do not think that it fair that Univ. of Congo grads can get a free pass while others are discriminated against.

More, I think that it should be more about your credentials than where you went to medical school because everybody knows that you REALLY learn medicine in residency.

But as California Advocate put it, we passed our boards and did our 2 years of clerkship side by side with USA students, we should have more chances of CA approval than Cambodia grads.. Bottom line, WE ARE MORE QUALIFIED!!!

But you are saying, "Stop whining, that is the way the law is, live with it..." That is fine with me, I don't care because I am not interested in CA but for California Advocate it is important because he does care and he wants to practice in CA.

Now even if Spartan gets it together and applies for CA approval, that will not effect California Advocate because when he graduated, the school was not approved, even though the school might have met all the requirements and certainly it met a heck of a lot more of requirements than the Univ. of Mongolia.

Hence, Univ. of Antartica grads are being licensed in CA and California Advocate cannot be licensed, even though, CA Advocate is more qualified than the Univ. of Antartica graduate. It just isn't fair and thus once the whining comes to an end, litigation will follow...

You probably do not care neilc, you cannot feel with him, you think to yourself, "Too bad, you should have gone to an approved school." But he knows deep down inside that even though he didn't go to an approved school, he is just as qualified as anybody else. Since he feels just as qualified as everyone else and even more qualified than many from schools such as the Univ. of Baghdad, he cannot just let this thing go.

And I totally can understand where he is coming from. It just doesn't seem fair, at all. Although life isn't always fair, we have the courts to help make it somewhat fair. In Oklahoma, the courts decided that it was unconstitutional and they gave that Spartan grad licenseship..

Personally, I think that this whole thing of applying to CA, TX, etc, each state individually, is getting ridiculous.. It is a waste of time and money for everyone. We should just have one centeral agency such as the FSMB.

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying that we shouldn't apply to CA, NY, etc.. We have to apply to them. Schools that do not apply could possibly lose their viablity, Spartan being high on the list... We should apply because we still must apply. All I am saying is that in the future, hopefully the near future, there could be 1 major place to apply, 1 major place that sets all the guidelines for ALL international schools to follow...

As for California Advocate and October, they probably will not be able to watch Univ. of Cambodia grads take their spots in CA and they will probably try and seek litigation. California Advocate and october should be given a chance, I believe... Anyway, it seems we do not all agree about this.. I have nothing more to say. California Advocate and october, CA would be lucky to have you. Good luck to you both. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

actually,Univ of Cambodia grads comming to US are educated and under Spartan Alumni dean in Cambodia!!!!!!!!!!,King Faisel Univ grads in Riyadh also trained in clerkship by Spartan grad in the major teaching hospital in the Kingdom[Dr ==],I myself educated many students,residents in MI when I was Assistant Prof in whom practicing in CA now...For people who saying you should have gone to CA approved school ,that is none sense because we[large numbers started before even this approve/non approve business started and even now people who went to SABA or St Mathews are they also did not make the good decision before Sab just get approved?in life things change and when they put the Japanese in house arrest durung the war ,law makers thought it was the best desision to protect Americans,now same law makers thinks it was rediculiously discriminatory decision and victims should be compensated,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the point here is not to avoid CA evaluation but to be treated equally like Lebanese Univ of Mansoria Univ that we all came to the country seeking better life and justice for all.

[shockandawe]

actually,Univ of Cambodia grads comming to US are educated and under Spartan Alumni dean in Cambodia!!!!!!!!!!,King Faisel Univ grads in Riyadh also trained in clerkship by Spartan grad in the major teaching hospital in the Kingdom[Dr ==],I myself educated many students,residents in MI when I was Assistant Prof in whom practicing in CA now...For people who saying you should have gone to CA approved school ,that is none sense because we[large numbers started before even this approve/non approve business started and even now people who went to SABA or St Mathews are they also did not make the good decision before Sab just get approved?in life things change and when they put the Japanese in house arrest durung the war ,law makers thought it was the best desision to protect Americans,now same law makers thinks it was rediculiously discriminatory decision and victims should be compensated,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the point here is not to avoid CA evaluation but to be treated equally like Lebanese Univ of Mansoria Univ that we all came to the country seeking better life and justice for all.


The message from the CA boards is as follows:

1- If you are interested in going to a foreign medical school, go to someplace that has absolutely NO CONNECTION to preparing you for residency and work in the USA.

2- Go someplace that does NOT prepare you for the USMLE step 1,2,3, so that there will be more chances you will fail and not make it in the USA.

3- Go to someplace that has very few USA students, this way, there will be more chances that you will feel uncomfortable and probably, you will drop out.

4- So what if you learn surgery by the military private, cook or plumber in Burma, GO LIVE IN THE JUNGLE because we love approving schools that are unacceptable by any standard, just as long as they have absolutely nothing to do with preparing you for being a competent physician in the USA.

5- If you are a total wimp and you cannot handle living in the jungle, you can always go to one of 4 approved carib schools, but remember, if you choose to be a wimp, you can still be banned in places like TX and Indiana and who knows where else.

6- Or, of course, you can always go to one of the unapproved schools that allow you to do rotations in the USA in preparation for residency, that focus on USA competency and then you can always beg your school to petition for CA approval, this way we can all do a "site visit" and have a FREE CARIBBEAN VACATION!!! Hooorayy... :D :D :D -s&a

[CA advocate]

...For people who saying you should have gone to CA approved school ,that is none sense because we[large numbers started before even this approve/non approve business started and even now people who went to SABA or St Mathews are they also did not make the good decision before Sab just get approved?in life things change and when they put the Japanese in house arrest durung the war ,law makers thought it was the best desision to protect Americans,now same law makers thinks it was rediculiously discriminatory decision and victims should be compensated,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the point here is not to avoid CA evaluation but to be treated equally like Lebanese Univ of Mansoria Univ that we all came to the country seeking better life and justice for all.

Thanks Zaatari. The point is that there should be a an equal standard and this list of unapproved medical schools needs to be eliminated. FSMB has been around much longer and if they are treating all the IMG equally and look at actuall credentials, well California Medical Board needs to look closer and stop this discrimination. Their rule of protecting Patients care HAS NOTHING to do with this " PICK and CHOOSE" regulations they have adapted. Patient Care is a multi step and FSMB has outlined them very accuratley over the years.

Yes, If laws were set and never challenged, where would this country be now? Segregation be in place, Child abuse would not be a crime, Women would not be allowed to vote,...

[shockandawe]

I wonder what it must be like, when the CA boards members get an application from one the unapproved carib. schools. All ten or so members jump on the application, "Me, me, me, where is it from? Where? Where? Where?" "Oh, St. Lucia, I always wanted to go there..." Then they have to fight it out because only something like 5 members can go. "Hey Hank, you went to St. Martin last time, its my turn to go on vacation..." :D -s&a

[wolfvgang22]

The message from the CA boards is as follows:

1- If you are interested in going to a foreign medical school, go to someplace that has absolutely NO CONNECTION to preparing you for residency and work in the USA.

2- Go someplace that does NOT prepare you for the USMLE step 1,2,3, so that there will be more chances you will fail and not make it in the USA.

3- Go to someplace that has very few USA students, this way, there will be more chances that you will feel uncomfortable and probably, you will drop out.

4- So what if you learn surgery by the military private, cook or plumber in Burma, GO LIVE IN THE JUNGLE because we love approving schools that are unacceptable by any standard, just as long as they have absolutely nothing to do with preparing you for being a competent physician in the USA.

5- If you are a total wimp and you cannot handle living in the jungle, you can always go to one of 4 approved carib schools, but remember, if you choose to be a wimp, you can still be banned in places like TX and Indiana and who knows where else.

6- Or, of course, you can always go to one of the unapproved schools that allow you to do rotations in the USA in preparation for residency, that focus on USA competency and then you can always beg your school to petition for CA approval, this way we can all do a "site visit" and have a FREE CARIBBEAN VACATION!!! Hooorayy... :D :D :D -s&a
I don't think that this is the intention, but the CA medical board does come off looking that way to a lot of students.

[shockandawe]

The message from the CA boards is as follows:

1- If you are interested in going to a foreign medical school, go to someplace that has absolutely NO CONNECTION to preparing you for residency and work in the USA.

2- Go someplace that does NOT prepare you for the USMLE step 1,2,3, so that there will be more chances you will fail and not make it in the USA.

3- Go to someplace that has very few USA students, this way, there will be more chances that you will feel uncomfortable and probably, you will drop out.

4- So what if you learn surgery by the military private, cook or plumber in Burma, GO LIVE IN THE JUNGLE because we love approving schools that are unacceptable by any standard, just as long as they have absolutely nothing to do with preparing you for being a competent physician in the USA.

5- If you are a total wimp and you cannot handle living in the jungle, you can always go to one of 4 approved carib schools, but remember, if you choose to be a wimp, you can still be banned in places like TX and Indiana and who knows where else.

6- Or, of course, you can always go to one of the unapproved schools that allow you to do rotations in the USA in preparation for residency, that focus on USA competency and then you can always beg your school to petition for CA approval, this way we can all do a "site visit" and have a FREE CARIBBEAN VACATION!!! Hooorayy... :D :D :D -s&a
I don't think that this is the intention, but the CA medical board does come off looking that way to a lot of students.


Wolf,

Whether it is directly or indirectly, whether intentional or unintentional, this is the CA board message... Not only is it their message, it is their policy. Bottom line is that they are allowing unqualified people who did their clinical rotations in chicken farms to be licensed, while discriminating against people who very well. could be more qualified and they are disguising it as "we are protecting our patients..." Come on... Whom are they kidding???

ZAATARI did all his medical school rotations in the USA, his residency at an Ivy league, completed his fellowship, worked as a sub-specialist and won the Physician of the Year award last year. Now, according to the CA board, they would give a Univ. of Cambodia grad with 1/1,000.000th the experience of ZAATARI a license to treat CA patients and they would disapprove ZAATARI. Even though there are locations in CA that would die to have an expert such as ZAATARI in their town to treat their citizens. I see something very wrong with this picture and I am certain the CA courts will agree.. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

Well shockandawe: The good news I never ever been denied any license when I was given the opportunity,even when I went to Saudi Arabia I was the only American that did not take the license oral exam,my partners [UCLA grad,Georgetown,and Boston Childrens]all asked to take the exam,one actually failed and took it again.and all board certified hired as consultants,anyone comes from third world country as specialist[like surgeon from India]will be my assistant[called house physician holds retractors].

[shockandawe]

Well shockandawe: The good news I never ever been denied any license when I was given the opportunity,even when I went to Saudi Arabia I was the only American that did not take the license oral exam,my partners [UCLA grad,Georgetown,and Boston Childrens]all asked to take the exam,one actually failed and took it again.and all board certified hired as consultants,anyone comes from third world country as specialist[like surgeon from India]will be my assistant[called house physician holds retractors].

Even though the Saudi Royal family trusted you to be their physician, the CA board members would rather have a Univ. of Antartica grad with little or no experience be licensed... If the citizens of CA only knew what their state boards are doing, they would fire all of them.. Not to mention all the money, they are going to be wasting the state for litigation. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

shockandawe: both of us have no interest in practicing in CA , and we both feel other IMG's from third world countries should be site visited like everybody else but also as stated earlier Spartan must re-apply and follow the big four schools in order to survive . I wish everyone happy new year ,Happy Hinnakah,and marry christmas and god bless you and bless America.


Desclaimer:
All above opinion in this thread personal thoughts and not an advise to anyone.

[shockandawe]

shockandawe: both of us have no interest in practicing in CA , and we both feel other IMG's from third world countries should be site visited like everybody else but also as stated earlier Spartan must re-apply and follow the big four schools in order to survive . I wish everyone happy new year ,Happy Hinnakah,and marry christmas and god bless you and bless America.


Desclaimer:
All above opinion in this thread personal thoughts and not an advise to anyone.


I have decided that I want to apply to be a CA state board member, that way I can have the free vacations to the carib.. Also, I can disapprove neilc when he applies: NO CA LICENSURE FOR YOU!!! NEXT!! :D -s&a

[AUCMD2006]

we've all agreed that if a student passes step 1,2,3 and does a residency then they should practice. if someone from the university of kabul does this then more power to them. ever wonder why the usmle pass rates are in the 50's? well because kabul, etc doesn't focus on usmle material or us medicine nor should they, they have their own list of MCC's and bugs.

if a school is training most grads to work in the US, would not survive without US students, is solely recruiting US students, then the US shoudl be able to regulate it any way it chooses. wether that meand having MD's teach the curriculum who have trained only in the US, or that the a rubber chicken must be flown from the flagpole every afternoon at 4:00PM so be it.......

[shockandawe]

we've all agreed that if a student passes step 1,2,3 and does a residency then they should practice. if someone from the university of kabul does this then more power to them. ever wonder why the usmle pass rates are in the 50's? well because kabul, etc doesn't focus on usmle material or us medicine nor should they, they have their own list of MCC's and bugs.

if a school is training most grads to work in the US, would not survive without US students, is solely recruiting US students, then the US shoudl be able to regulate it any way it chooses. wether that meand having MD's teach the curriculum who have trained only in the US, or that the a rubber chicken must be flown from the flagpole every afternoon at 4:00PM so be it.......

Nonesense, but even if this was acceptable, which it isn't, then Spartan should have automatic CA approval. Why? Because we have plenty of students that come to Spartan specifically to go on to be licensed physicians in other countries, such as Saudi, Cambodia, Cameroon, etc.. More licensed physicians outside of the USA then any other carib school.. Spartan is an international medical school. Its not our fault that a big # of students that come to Spartan go to the USA. More people apply for licensure from the Univ. of Iran than Spartan, especially in the state of CA. We have people that go everywhere around the world, so that means, according to you rrod, we should have automatic CA approval. -s&a

[AUCMD2006]

"Why? Because we have plenty of students that come to Spartan specifically to go on to be licensed physicians in other countries, such as Saudi, Cambodia, Cameroon, etc"

that just goes to show three probabilities:

1) that these people couldn't get into med schools in saudi arabia, cambodia, cameroon etc. and had to go to some third rate caribbean island like the rest of us who didn't get in the US.

2) that they failed to gain licensure in the US and were forced to go anywhere that would take them...perhaps went to spartan hoping to do US rotations and get a green card? hmmmm now which caribbean school is marketing this ploy? (not spartan by the way some other one has commercials in pakistan)

3) they truly beleived that spartan is this international haven of medical education nesttled between the shacks and trees of st lucia.

per capita i'm sure spartan students apply to the US more than any domicile school just like all the carib schools (aka US doctor factories). using your small class size as some sort of evidence that not that many spartan grads apply to the US is ** since there are so few students per class.

many spartan grads are highly successful per your postings, but it is evident that this is solely because of the individual not the school, why you keep insisting that the education there is what got you where you are at is beyond me. you put in the effort to get good rotations, you did well on your boards etc. don't sell yourself short and try and make like the school had anything to do with that and imply that students that go there have an edge on success.

i wonder for every highly motivated individual that manages to make it out of there how many are left with nothing but a loan payment? so what is the spartan step 1 first time pass rate?

and about interviews, yes you exaggerate things to sell yourself but you shouldn't have to outright lie.......

[ZAATARI]

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[shockandawe]

"Why? Because we have plenty of students that come to Spartan specifically to go on to be licensed physicians in other countries, such as Saudi, Cambodia, Cameroon, etc"

that just goes to show three probabilities:

1) that these people couldn't get into med schools in saudi arabia, cambodia, cameroon etc. and had to go to some third rate caribbean island like the rest of us who didn't get in the US.

2) that they failed to gain licensure in the US and were forced to go anywhere that would take them...perhaps went to spartan hoping to do US rotations and get a green card? hmmmm now which caribbean school is marketing this ploy? (not spartan by the way some other one has commercials in pakistan)

3) they truly beleived that spartan is this international haven of medical education nesttled between the shacks and trees of st lucia.

per capita i'm sure spartan students apply to the US more than any domicile school just like all the carib schools (aka US doctor factories). using your small class size as some sort of evidence that not that many spartan grads apply to the US is ** since there are so few students per class.

many spartan grads are highly successful per your postings, but it is evident that this is solely because of the individual not the school, why you keep insisting that the education there is what got you where you are at is beyond me. you put in the effort to get good rotations, you did well on your boards etc. don't sell yourself short and try and make like the school had anything to do with that and imply that students that go there have an edge on success.

i wonder for every highly motivated individual that manages to make it out of there how many are left with nothing but a loan payment? so what is the spartan step 1 first time pass rate?

and about interviews, yes you exaggerate things to sell yourself but you shouldn't have to outright lie.......

My point is that these individuals would have been successful no matter where they went to school. I would have gotten about the same USMLE score even if I went to the Univ. of Bangladesh. I studied my butt off. I never said that Spartan gave me my board score.

It just happens to be an old school, so we have had more time to have more successful grads. In another ten years, you are going to see SMU and Saba grads that are doing their own cardiology talk-shows.

What is especially impressive about the successful Spartan grad, save for some good rotations, is that we have to be exceptionally motivated to make it from Spartan. There is no spoon feeding here... Maybe that helps explain some of our impressive success stories.

Everybody knows that most people go to Spartan because of the affordable tuition. For some people Spartan is the only choice.

If I could do it again, I would not have stepped foot anywhere near the caribbean... I would have gone to Australia or England (the real English schools).

I definitely would not have gone to someplace like AUC, people already laugh when they ask where is Spartan and you say the Caribbean. AUC people have the word "Caribbean" in their school name. It's embarrassing. The whole caribbean is an embarrassment..

You'll see what I am takling about rrod, when you go for your interviews.. During rotations its not so bad because you will be with your own kind, but when you go to interviews, especially at the prestigious places that have zero carib. students and residents, you will see what I am talking about...

About CA, TX, wherever state boards... It is obvious that we need to have centeral agency, such as the FSMB, who sets the guideline, the standard and all the carib schools follow. Much easier, cheaper and more respectable for everyone. -s&a

[neilc]

i think it is generally agreed that a central requirement board would be a great idea. it may or may not happen. if it does, it is likely that it would be at least as comprehensive as CA currently requires.

as it is, there is zero excuse for getting upset at CA. everyone that has attended spartan knew it was not ok in CA. so, to complain now is just ridiculous.

it always is amusing what you spartan folks spout off about. first it was some non-sensical nobel prize, then some guy who has a talk show, some business award winner. what the heck do any of these have to to do with anything???? that is a great individual achievment, in each case, but totally non-related to the school. more reflective would be a consistent pattern of high usmle pass rates, or great residency placements, and licensed grads in all states.

and, now to spoout off about how CA is discriminating. ridiculous.

moral of the story: go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements. if you go to a school that lacks any of the above, please do not come here and whine and complain about how unfair life is. you made your bed, now lie in it.

i certainly feel no sympathy for the spartan grads that fail the boards, get crappy residency placements, or that can't work in the state of their choice. if it was that important to you, you would have gone to a better school

[shockandawe]

Neilc wrote: go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements...

Neilc, why don't you do us ALL a BIG FAVOR and give us break... -s&a

[neilc]

Neilc wrote: go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements...

Neilc, why don't you do us ALL a BIG FAVOR and GO to you know where... -s&a

ahh....when all the fluff that you try to promote is pushed aside, and the true issues (in bold print above) are in plain sight....this is the response i expected.

s&a, i am happy where i am. too bad you and your fellow spartan grads can only go to a few certain states...oh well!

best of luck with the CA lawsuit! let us know how it goes...i am sure the state board will be so impressed with the nobel prize and the talk show.

[shockandawe]

Neilc wrote: go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements...

Neilc, why don't you do us ALL a BIG FAVOR and GO to you know where... -s&a

ahh....when all the fluff that you try to promote is pushed aside, and the true issues (in bold print above) are in plain sight....this is the response i expected.

s&a, i am happy where i am. too bad you and your fellow spartan grads can only go to a few certain states...oh well!

best of luck with the CA lawsuit! let us know how it goes...i am sure the state board will be so impressed with the nobel prize and the talk show.

:D -s&a

[shockandawe]

Interestingly, you will notice that all of these people that agree with the CA complete and utter discrimination process, are from approved schools. That is all you guys have... And after the CA boards loses the lawsuit, you will have nothing left... Sad... -s&a

[CA advocate]

go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements. if you go to a school that lacks any of the above, please do not come here and whine and complain about how unfair life is. you made your bed, now lie in it.

I certainly feel no sympathy for the spartan grads that fail the boards, get crappy residency placements, or that can't work in the state of their choice. if it was that important to you, you would have gone to a better school

Neilc, Please What makes your IMG school shine brighter than others? I have some facts about your school as well, and as a matter of fact I did get accepted to your school . But even now I am glad I didn't go to yours since I had american medical experience from my 3 rd year where yours was probably first day of internship. So don't act so almighty and cynical.

Most of the selection of our schools were pre internet ages, so the resources were limited. There are also graduates from SABA that could be practicing in Ca from 2002 and after and the previous ones are prohibited. This is an unbelievable process.

This is a fact thought if you were to talk to all the grads what makes you a good doctor and responsible one is studying, passing the FSMB credentialling and applying the knowledge in your clinical practice, and making it thorugh residency and being a competent physican.

[AUCMD2006]

"AUC people have the word "Caribbean" in their school name. It's embarrassing. The whole caribbean is an embarrassment.. "


i would say a lot of the caribbean is an embarassment but i would venture to say that some places are much less of an embarassment and some others make up more than their share.

about having 'caribbean' in the name, well i knew that coming in so i'm not gonna cry about it and try to sue the school to change it.

also i am planning on not lying on my interviews so here are my responses:

"tell me about AUC. island bla bla....throw in some of the duke faculty, the prof who does research at harvard every year, profs from creighton, prof that did dna repair research at oakridge maybe throw in one of his dna repair discovery funny stories like how XP repair mechanismwas discovered by accident ...etc

"would you recommend it to anyone else" only if all avenues in the US had been tried. throw in somthing about me not being able to get in the US and the extra work it takes to succeed abroad.....mention my hopefully at least average board scores..bla bla

"did they teach you well" since most taught at US med schools i beleive i got a comparable education, since they aren't in the publish or perrish enviroenment anymore i beleive i got extra ondividual attention...bla bla..if i don't do well on the step 1 discuss my LORs in rotations and better step 2 scores

"why haven't I heard of this school" not that many people from there apply for residency at yale? :lol:

am i embarassed to be in the caribbean? at first yes but only because i was ashamed i didn't get into the US schools. now i am not proud to the point were i'd parade down the street and scream where i went, but i'm confortable in saying where i went because i know that most people involved in medicine know about the big carib schools and the ones that don't can do a quick search and find over 3,500 licensed graduates in every state and don't have to do a super advanced search on nobel prizes, business weekly awards, or puruse local cable for a glimpse at a grad....

[ZAATARI]

http://www.mubabol.ac.ir/babol/faculty%20of%20medicine.htm#.

[shockandawe]

rrod, you are in a dream world, also known as the caribbean world.. One day, you will wake up but you have a long way to go... -s&a

[neilc]

go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements. if you go to a school that lacks any of the above, please do not come here and whine and complain about how unfair life is. you made your bed, now lie in it.

I certainly feel no sympathy for the spartan grads that fail the boards, get crappy residency placements, or that can't work in the state of their choice. if it was that important to you, you would have gone to a better school

Neilc, Please What makes your IMG school shine brighter than others? I have some facts about your school as well, and as a matter of fact I did get accepted to your school . But even now I am glad I didn't go to yours since I had american medical experience from my 3 rd year where yours was probably first day of internship. So don't act so almighty and cynical.

Most of the selection of our schools were pre internet ages, so the resources were limited. There are also graduates from SABA that could be practicing in Ca from 2002 and after and the previous ones are prohibited. This is an unbelievable process.

This is a fact thought if you were to talk to all the grads what makes you a good doctor and responsible one is studying, passing the FSMB credentialling and applying the knowledge in your clinical practice, and making it thorugh residency and being a competent physican.

i have never even implied that my school shines brighter than all of the others....it is not a "my school is better" argument at all.

the fact is, if you go to an offshore school, you must be aware of the legalities, and the limitations of any school you choose. if you want to return to the states, it is up to you, the student, to choose a school that will get you back. if you did not do your due dilligence before you left, i am sorry for you bad luck. but, the information was out there. it is simply a bad choice in schools. you did not do your homework, you got left behind in the end. sorry.

it would be great to have a central body determining what schools are ok. but, you guys seem to be barking up the wrong tree. i can assure you that your school will need to be at least up to CA standards. there is no way CA will adopt lesser standards than they have now, no matter what the FSMB says. i would be willing to bet that if anything like that comes down the pipeline, it would be more likely to adopt CA's list, or be at least that stringent!

so, to all potential med students...learn from the mistakes of those before you. do your homework. do not cut corners. if your school is not approved now, do not count on it becoming approved.

for all of you that are upset and po'd at CA, that is simply misdirected anger. the rules did not magically appear. you could have learned about them had you done your homework, and your school should have know about them and applied for approval. it is not CA's fault.

do not try to blame others. there is nothing unfair about it. the rules have been there, you should have know them, and either you choose to ignore them, you hoped they would go away, or you did not do your homework.

[shockandawe]

i have never even implied that my school shines brighter than all of the others....

That's because your school is nothing to brag about, neilc..

[neilc]

i have never even implied that my school shines brighter than all of the others....

That's because your school is a piece of crap, neilc..

somebody is having a meltdown :lol:

that is me laughing at you....

[AUCMD2006]

"rrod, you are in a dream world, also known as the caribbean world.. One day, you will wake up but you have a long way to go... -s&a"

things i dream about:

-i dream of not having to lie my gluteal off in an interview to get a spot
-i dream of being straight up front about why i am in the caribbean
-i dream of not having to drag obscure stories and connections to nobel, some off the wall cable tv show, and grads able to practice in the middle east to try and earn respect to a school that has been around for 20 years and should be better recognized
-but most of all i have a dream, a dream where carib med students, spartan and non spartan, will be treated as equals in the eyes of the california board....and much like the dream of racial equality i doubt that is likely to materialize either :lol:

simple you want to practice in cali, follow their rules. when the fsmb or whomever decides to regulate schools then only go to those schools. if sgu isn't on there don't go there, if auc isn't on there don't go there. it just doesn't get any simpler.

[CA advocate]

do not try to blame others. there is nothing unfair about it. the rules have been there, you should have know them, and either you choose to ignore them, you hoped they would go away, or you did not do your homework.

Well Neilc, when was your school evaluation by CA?

What is the relationship b/w that and the fact that I have been treating americans for 7 years and have had excellent patient care.

The problem is that you don't even know what this process is all about and as a pure IMG whom I am sure you had to learn the American medical system even the medication names from the start, you are stuck on the formality of the mattter and not the essence. So sad... :(

[wolfvgang22]

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/5738/sucks6.jpg

[shockandawe]

Have ever in your dreams imagined that a bureauocratic state board from anywhere on this planet, would have off-shore medical students DEFENDING them??? That is how low you guys will go... Just to feel proud that your school is "approved".... sad, very sad.. Pitifully sad... But then again, when you are talking about people like rrod and neilc, what do you expect... :roll: -s&a

[AUCMD2006]

no one is defending the boards just pointing out that if you want to work in that state you play by their stupid rules.

quit whinning about spartans admin, they haven't changed since you were there and chances are they ain't gonna so stop your crying . you know what is truly pityfull andc pathetic? trying to make the school look better by posting stuff about a few successful grads that say nothing about the school only about their own desire and drive.

spartan is a poor choice if you want to practice in cali, if you don't have the drive of a medical decathlete, or if you have the means to attend another school..simple. but if you make it through there it speaks highly of your determintaion.

it is just funny how you keep posting about highly sucessful grads and when az puts up one of your grads having a hard time you go ballistic.....almost as if you were admin???hmmmm great cover if its true...oh poor me ****** won't take my calls, here is a spartan grad he is the royal surgeon to the head postman in outer mongolia.....bohooo they just won't change, here is a great spartan grad they won best office decoration in duval county...waaaa waaaaa waaaa...here is another great spartan grad they nominated themselves for a pulltizer....bohooohoo the admin sucks :roll:

[shockandawe]

You really love state boards, rrod, don't you.. :lol: -s&a

[AUCMD2006]

you're the one that had to lie to them to get your residency..hehe


so i would pressume that you did your fair amount of going home and taking a deep steam shower after your residency interviews huh?

i don't have to kiss to the cali board or any other like...the admin here did that decades ago when they got the approvals in the first place:shock:

the more you post the more i start finding satisfaction that wether you are board certified or the surgeon general you can't be licensed in cali while someone from kabul can...hehehehehehe

[shockandawe]

you're the one that had to lie to them to get your residency..hehe

Dude, I never said "lie" about anything... what I said was if I went to someplace like AUC, during the residency interview, I would have focused on the positive and not told them about how students were raped and the school did nothing about it or island locals were so mean or Dr. **** was so corrupt or how the school used to be run out of a hotel which was a whore house and they lost their Staffords, do you want me to go on rrod... :D -s&a

[AUCMD2006]

all that is public knowldege we all make fun of. by the way the whore house came after auc left the defiance hotel not during...would have been nice though. don't know about how dr t is corrupt, he likes money and gold but i don't know about corrupt.

if he was corrupt maybe he would be happy with small class sizes....maybe he wouldn't have built a multi million dollar campus and would have been satisfied how the school was 28 years ago, maybe he wouldn't take the calls of concerned grads, if he was corrupt maybe he would lie about getting loans to get more students enrolled...hmmmm

if you want i'l get you going with auc rumors:

-a professor here a few years back owned a restaurant close by, when he left he left his mistress in charge of it
-a former prof of ross that was hired here a few years back was running away from dominica from an alleged drug smuggling scenario
-another former ross prof hired here a few years back allegedly lost their license for kidnapping back in the US
-a professor was fired from here for sexual harrassment

here are some from my undergrad in the US..major university by the way:

-professor fired for sexual harrassment
-professor quits to marry his freshman student 50 years his younger
-professor was 'asked' to leave NYU for lying in grant proposals. same prof (also dept head) tries to fire minorities from his department luckily most had tenure
-3 students were raped, and 5 or so were 'sexually attacked' whatever that means, the school did nothing more than put up flyers warning students that it happened.
-30 some break ins in a year
-2 cars stolen in a year
-20 some people got mugged
-2 suicides

ooooo the embarassment.....gimme a break these things happen but what is an embarassment is a school that is stagnant over the last two decades, not the idiosyncracies of a school getting thrown off an island by a volcano and having classes at a hotel while a campus is built, which later became a whore house...closed down by the way supposedly to high hiv rate...
there you go...

changing the direction of the conversation towards auc isn't gonna change the fact that spartan is a poor choice for anyone wanting to go to california, that they haven't tried to get it in 18 years. after all auc has the

[shockandawe]

all that is public knowldege we all make fun of. by the way the whore house came after auc left the defiance hotel not during...would have been nice though. don't know about how dr t is corrupt, he likes money and gold but i don't know about corrupt.

if he was corrupt maybe he would be happy with small class sizes....maybe he wouldn't have built a multi million dollar campus and would have been satisfied how the school was 28 years ago, maybe he wouldn't take the calls of concerned grads, if he was corrupt maybe he would lie about getting loans to get more students enrolled...hmmmm

if you want i'l get you going with auc rumors:

-a professor here a few years back owned a restaurant close by, when he left he left his mistress in charge of it
-a former prof of ross that was hired here a few years back was running away from dominica from an alleged drug smuggling scenario
-another former ross prof hired here a few years back allegedly lost their license for kidnapping back in the US
-a professor was fired from here for sexual harrassment

here are some from my undergrad in the US..major university by the way:

-professor fired for sexual harrassment
-professor quits to marry his freshman student 50 years his younger
-professor was 'asked' to leave NYU for lying in grant proposals. same prof (also dept head) tries to fire minorities from his department luckily most had tenure
-3 students were raped, and 5 or so were 'sexually attacked' whatever that means, the school did nothing more than put up flyers warning students that it happened.
-30 some break ins in a year
-2 cars stolen in a year
-20 some people got mugged
-2 suicides

ooooo the embarassment.....gimme a break these things happen but what is an embarassment is a school that is stagnant over the last two decades, not the idiosyncracies of a school getting thrown off an island by a volcano and having classes at a hotel while a campus is built, which later became a whore house...closed down by the way supposedly to high hiv rate...
there you go...

changing the direction of the conversation towards auc isn't gonna change the fact that spartan is a poor choice for anyone wanting to go to california, that they haven't tried to get it in 18 years. after all auc has the

Dude, I do NOT care, I didn't even read your message, that is how little I care.. Thank you for your support and now you can go back to the AUC forum. You are dismissed... -s&a

[AUCMD2006]

last word

[CA advocate]

"If you make it through there it speaks highly of your determintaion. " by rrod.

rrod, this is not about school bashing. It is about determination, knowledge and being a competent physician.

I know of many 3rd world country schools that they enter medical school right after highschool, they are also ones the never get to do any supervised clinicals, there are ones that have no anatomy, there are ones that never get to learn a simple History and Physical,....

and none of the above mentioned schools are offshore schools.( and Ca board hasn't been there)!

The whole point , as yo put it is determination and much more. It takes hard work to get where some of us are. We all know that , it's a set of standards by FSMB, I doubt anyone can argue with me that you could pass your boards without having a solid knowledge of medicine.

I have worked with American grads and IMG since my 3rd year of medical school. Today I am practicing. I saw no difference b/w the IMg grads vs Americans from clerkship up to now. Some difference I note in my self was my greater appreciation for what I had.

So, let's stop this IMG bashing this vs this and look at the big picture and stop this discrimination. It starts with us...

[wolfvgang22]

all that is public knowldege we all make fun of. by the way the whore house came after auc left the defiance hotel not during...would have been nice though. don't know about how dr t is corrupt, he likes money and gold but i don't know about corrupt.

if he was corrupt maybe he would be happy with small class sizes....maybe he wouldn't have built a multi million dollar campus and would have been satisfied how the school was 28 years ago, maybe he wouldn't take the calls of concerned grads, if he was corrupt maybe he would lie about getting loans to get more students enrolled...hmmmm

if you want i'l get you going with auc rumors:

-a professor here a few years back owned a restaurant close by, when he left he left his mistress in charge of it
-a former prof of ross that was hired here a few years back was running away from dominica from an alleged drug smuggling scenario
-another former ross prof hired here a few years back allegedly lost their license for kidnapping back in the US
-a professor was fired from here for sexual harrassment

here are some from my undergrad in the US..major university by the way:

-professor fired for sexual harrassment
-professor quits to marry his freshman student 50 years his younger
-professor was 'asked' to leave NYU for lying in grant proposals. same prof (also dept head) tries to fire minorities from his department luckily most had tenure
-3 students were raped, and 5 or so were 'sexually attacked' whatever that means, the school did nothing more than put up flyers warning students that it happened.
-30 some break ins in a year
-2 cars stolen in a year
-20 some people got mugged
-2 suicides

ooooo the embarassment.....gimme a break these things happen but what is an embarassment is a school that is stagnant over the last two decades, not the idiosyncracies of a school getting thrown off an island by a volcano and having classes at a hotel while a campus is built, which later became a whore house...closed down by the way supposedly to high hiv rate...
there you go...

changing the direction of the conversation towards auc isn't gonna change the fact that spartan is a poor choice for anyone wanting to go to california, that they haven't tried to get it in 18 years. after all auc has the
:lol:
Some of this same stuff happened at my undergrad school, too! What a coinci-dink!

One professor really did marry a student, 30 years his junior, but they waited until the day after her graduation....but it was common knowledge they were hot and heavy...no kidding. :wink:

[AUCMD2006]

i agree. the fsmb needs a set of criteria that all schools training US students need to follow. the reason why it needs to be mandated and required is because all of our schools are for profit and will put the least amount of money into the school. spartan is a prime example, they don't apply because they don't have to like s&a said they could survive with 4 students. bigger operations like sgu, ross, and auc need a certain number of bodies to make it worth it so they will jump through the hoops to get as many people to come here as they can, do you think its out of the goodness of their hearts that they build big modern campuses and hire US PhD's and MD's when it'd be cheaper to get everyone from the middle east or asia?

stop the discrimination of imgs by making a standard set of guidelines from applicants to facilities. determine the minimal standard that a school can accept via credits, bachelors degree, mcat whatver. then look at the facilities mandate that dissection have no more than 7 people, all staff need to be PhD or higher, a certain percentage to be US faculty, the library needs x numbers of books of x edition, this amount of high speed computers per student, access to journals, and whatver else they consider equivalent to a US education for schools training specifically a majority of US students

this crap of one school being ok in 44 states and not in 6 is pure crap. if you pass your steps, residency, and are a US citizen why shoudl they limit on where you can work?

now as it stands right now we have to play their game and if you want to practice in a state you need to make sure you can from your school. hopefuly these standards and accreditation is coming because hearing stories like that spartan grad denied licesne in fl and tn just sucks after all that hard work.

[AUCMD2006]

you said you have to ** then go home and take a shower from having to ** so much..that equates to lying doesn't it? it certainly seems a bit more involved than an exaggeration...i mean when i exaggerate about fishing stories, the hammerhead i caught was only 7 feet not 14 hehe....i don't feel dirty enough to have to go home and take a shower.....

[shockandawe]

you said you have to ** then go home and take a shower from having to ** so much..that equates to lying doesn't it? it certainly seems a bit more involved than an exaggeration...i mean when i exaggerate about fishing stories, the hammerhead i caught was only 7 feet not 14 hehe....i don't feel dirty enough to have to go home and take a shower.....


rrod, didn't I already dismiss you?? What are you still doing in this forum?? Just kidding... :D

**-ing as same thing as exaggerating, is how I meant it.. I don't like it too much. I do not like it when they ask you to "Talk about yourself..." in an interview and then you have to make yourself look good and you have to somewhat sell yourself and let them know why you are the best choice. I NEVER said "lie".

If you lie, you might get away with it, but it will bite you in the butt, some other time. Everybody that goes to their interview **-es to some degree or another... Having said that, I'm sure now, that some people are going to come on to this forum and say, "Oh no, I never..." You know what, all I have to say is that is **!!!

But there are different degrees of **-ing and I suppose it could be to the point of lying. When I wrote about **-ing, I meant it to be more like exaggerating, sticking to the positive.. -s&a

[ZAATARI]

http://http://www.spartanmed.org/www.mubabol.ac.ir/babol/faculty%20of%20medicine.htm#.http://www.fums.ac.ir/

[ZAATARI]

http://www.spartanmed.org/

http://www.mubabol.ac.ir/babol/faculty%20of%20medicine.htm#.

http://www.fums.ac.ir/

we all have dreams

[ZAATARI]

Saddam University Saddam College of Medicine in Iraq
[I hope they change the name]

http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Approved_Schools.htm#C

[shockandawe]

That's it!!! I'm going to Saddam University, so that I can be CA approved!!! -s&a

[ZAATARI]

getting in Saddam univ is no problem the only catch you have to do first two yrs basic sciences at the Basra central prison.

[shockandawe]

getting in Saddam univ is no problem the only catch you have to do first two yrs basic sciences at the Basra central prison.

Then I am sure that the CA state boards are going to want to do a "site visit" of Saddam Univ. :D Could you imagine... Hey, after all, we "have to protect our patients..." -s&a

[october]

Neilc wrote: go to an approved school. go to a school with grads licensed in all states. go to a school with high pass rates. go to a school with consistent good residency placements...

Neilc, why don't you do us ALL a BIG FAVOR and GO to you know where... -s&a

ahh....when all the fluff that you try to promote is pushed aside, and the true issues (in bold print above) are in plain sight....this is the response i expected.

s&a, i am happy where i am. too bad you and your fellow spartan grads can only go to a few certain states...oh well!

best of luck with the CA lawsuit! let us know how it goes...i am sure the state board will be so impressed with the nobel prize and the talk show.
Neil, I know you mean well, but before you get too glued to the saddle of your "high horse" heres something to think about.

The CMB has stated on these forums that if UNPHU, an already CA approved old well respected private university in Santo Domingo, institutes an English language medicine program they (UNPHU) will have to apply from square one for CA approval of these matriculated grads regardless of the preexistent CA approval of UNPHU University. If UNPHU wanted to play hardball they could easily argue in CA court that Charles Univ english language program be immediately dissaproved pending completion and ultimate acceptance after having gone through the entire CA application process, just as they are making UNPHU do.

[shockandawe]

The CMB has stated on these forums that if UNPHU, an already CA approved old well respected private university in Santo Domingo, institutes an English language medicine program they (UNPHU) will have to apply from square one for CA approval of these matriculated grads regardless of the preexistent CA approval of UNPHU University. If UNPHU wanted to play hardball they could easily argue in CA court that Charles Univ english language program be immediately dissaproved pending completion and ultimate acceptance after having gone through the entire CA application process, just as they are making UNPHU do.


You can always transfer to Saddam University, neilc... :lol: -s&a

[october]

You have no cause of action to litigate in court.

Cause of Action: DISCRIMINATION




That isn't discrimnation. When two things are equal, and one is picked based on color, religion, ethnicity, that is discrimination. When a state inspects a school and finds that its facilities are sub-par, and that the education recieved doesn't meet standards they have set, that is NOT discrimination.

If someone wnats to practice in CA, there are 4 options in the caribbean. Choose one. If you don't, it is like buying an orange and then crying becasue it doesn't taste like an apple. If you "didn't know", then shame on you f