Semmelweis' Purported Reputation

[Sandor]

Hi All,


(NB: I orginally wrote:
"A lot of lip service is given here in Budapest to how good of a school Semmelweis is.")

Now that I done some thinking about it, I would like to substitute any Hungarian med school for Semmelweis. As I have often heard that Semmelweis/Pecs/Debrecen/Szeged med schools are so thorough/rigorous/high quality that they are highly acclaimed in the West. So for the puporses of the rest of my post, please substitute "Semmelweis/Pecs/Debrecen/Szeged" for Semmelweis.

Thanks.

Question for all of you that are either attending a Hungarian med school or planning to:

I have Scandinavian students (usually of Hungarian origin) tell me, that Semmelweis enjoys a fantastic reputation in Sweden and Norway. In fact, they inform me, better than their domestic med schools. Local Hungarians are also quite enamoured with Semmelweis. Preaching to me how it is world-famous etc etc ---- but besides this 'Semmelweis is great' cultural meme perpetuated by Hungarians and Hungaro-Scandinavians --- is there any hard proof that Semmelweis is respected outside of Hungary? Any rankings? Anything at all?

I mean I would love for it to be true. But I think this is just a fatalistic self-delusion. Considering the lack of good facilities, medieval teaching methods, and entirely subjective examination method - not to mention the (lack of) English linguistic ability of some of the faculty -- hence, regarding Semmelweis' super international reputation, as they say, 'that dog won't hunt.'

BTW those of you attending Pecs, Szeged or Debrecen feel free to chime in but don't bother with which Hun. school is better --- cuz we all know there aren't any major differences when it comes to getting residencies etc etc

BTW II Also let's forget about the ALL HUNGARIANS ARE GENIUSES meme as well. i.e. My Hun. prof. discovered such and such and is considered a God by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. So passé.

BTW III Hard proof is what is needed. Not: "My teacher said that his cousin said that his professor said that people from Semmelweis are the best prepared docs in the world and everyone knows that and blah blah"
(This is typical Hun. reponse)

FYI If I am not mistaken, Szeged is the only Hun. university that made it on this list: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm


Have at it please!

[cristagali]

Hi Sandor. Are you a language teacher? Or medical school teacher? Anyway, There are lots of scandanavian students studying in Hungary. but I haven't heard such glowing reviews from them. They are just as frustrated with the system as you stated in your post. It is a different system than the west..and it will take years (10-20) before it's even on par with Western Europe. Again, any student who comes here knows this in advance. However, maybe their enthusiasm stems from the fact that coming to Hungary was their path to becoming a doctor!! It was for me. There are some great docs here, whose English is perfect. THEN..there are some docs here who really don't deserve to be teaching and are quite arrogant and old school. And you are probably right, the Hugarian schools are more or less clones of each other, with a few isolated differences. Maybe because Simmelwies is in Budapest, which really is a nice city. yes it's dirty...but they're trying!! Rome wasn't built in a day!! Anyway, the Szeged ranking is primarily based on the equation that the China school uses to compile the info. if you have... or have HAD.. a nobel laureate on staff, you get huge points!! and then those points are deducted slowly year by year (ie, worth less in equation) So even though its been 70+ years since Albert St. Gyorgi, Szeged still benefits from his reputation. Hence their top 100 ranking. At my school, they are trying hard to 'catch up". They were recently named a Center of Excellence by the European Commission, and will have formal core rotations next year for their students in the US. This will help bridge some of the educational divide and hopefully speed up some changes within the clinical departments here. Anyway, the Hungarians are a quirky, homogenous folk, who are trying to find their way in this new world order. I admire them and thank them for letting me achieve my dream here. So let your scandanavian students cheer on. It can't hurt anybody..can it? :)

[Sandor]

Hi Sandor. Are you a language teacher? Or medical school teacher?

Hi!
None of the above.

It is a different system than the west..

Respectfully...No. It is not just 'different' -- it is substantially and objectively worse. Failure to recognize that does not solve the problem.

They were recently named a Center of Excellence by the European Commission, and will have formal core rotations next year for their students in the US. This will help bridge some of the educational divide and hopefully speed up some changes within the clinical departments here.

That sounds good hope that works well for you.

Anyway, the Hungarians are a quirky, homogenous folk,

I think you meant heterogenous.

I admire them and thank them for letting me achieve my dream here. So let your scandanavian students cheer on. It can't hurt anybody..can it? :)
Again. Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. No need to thank them. After all you are paying them.

Regarding people cheering on the schools, that is what drives me crazy --- doctors and/or med students are arguably rational. That is, they believe logic/science to solve problems, right? Then why is there such blind faith in something that clearly does not exist? Namely, the outstanding Hungarian medical school education.

[cristagali]

Hi Sandor. Obviously there is no way I will change your opinion and I'm not here to be a lobbyist for the Hungarian health System. You seem to be an intelligent person and I just can't believe that you do not appreciate the differences that many societies have. Do you think the Hungarians enjoyed 400 years of Hapsburg rule? And then to top it off with 50 years of communist rule. They had very little choice and seem to have done quite well perserving their unique identity under such dire circumstances. The health system is a direct result of being behind the iron curtain fof 50 years. It will take time and money. EU membership should help speed up the transition, but as stated earlier, it will still be 2 decades before hopsitals here look like a US hospital. But in the US, 40 million people don't have health insurance..is that a "better" system? And yes , they are homogeneous people, with the same sayings, food, names, etc. no matter what part of the country you are in. Should I hate Norwegians because they eat whale? Their culture. A fur coat in Moscow? Won't blink an eye. Fur coat in New York..watch out for the paint. British eat pork and beans for breakfast!! I hope you get my point. The health care system is a reflection of what is culturally tolerable at this time. Would an American feel uncomfortable in a Hungarian waiting room..probably... because they are used to something different. Do you still live in Hungary? Things are changing for the better, but it will take time. Come to Debrecen, you won't recognize the place from 5 years ago. Housing subdivisions with $200,000 homes the norm,.. BMW,Land Rover, jaguar, dealership(S)!! A new standard is being set, and the Hungarian people, over time, will expect, demand, better...AND this will include the health sysytem too. Dr's and hospitals will have to compete for patients (customers) If a patient has a choice between ghetto hospital ward or the new birthing wing at the other hospital, which will they choose?? you know the answer..as Ronald Reagan said its the trickle down effect of economic stimulus. To survive, docs and hospitals will have to provide better and more modern services, or the patients will go elsewhere. it will work..just give it time. szia 8)

[Sandor]

I'm not here to be a lobbyist for the Hungarian health System.
That's good.

You seem to be an intelligent person and I just can't believe that you do not appreciate the differences that many societies have.

1st point: Thanks
2nd point: If you are saying that I am not a cultural relativist, then you are right. I am not. B/c while I can 'appreciate the differences that many societies have' --- I can also judge good from bad. More importantly, good from bad, when bad sees how good is being done. (i.e. Hungarian medical education)

Do you think the Hungarians enjoyed 400 years of Hapsburg rule?

I am sorry but that is totally irrelvant.

And then to top it off with 50 years of communist rule. They had very little choice

I dunno about little choice. The Hungarian Communist Party was made up of...surprise...surprise...Hungarians.

The health system is a direct result of being behind the iron curtain fof 50 years. It will take time and money.

We agree here. But where I depart from is that the self-delusion that many a Hungarian/ex-pat med. student in Hun. suffers from only further serves to handicap them, especially when one observes this as blind faith in a horrible educational system touted as being one of the world's best.

it will still be 2 decades before hopsitals here look like a US hospital.

More like another 2 or 3 generations to recover from the Communist hangover IMHO.

But in the US, 40 million people don't have <a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52>health insurance</a>..is that a "better" system?

1st this is totally irrelvant to my initial post but if you are asking me if the US system is better than the Hungarian. The answer is an unassailable and resounding 'YES!'. Look at any social/health indicator and Hungary falls far below the US. (Longevity, Cancer rates etc etc) --- I am guessing that you don't have a good grasp of Hungary's healthcare system --- one that is rife with: incompetence, corruption and extremely inefficient and expensive.

And yes , they are homogeneous people, with the same sayings, food, names, etc. no matter what part of the country you are in.

Not at all true. While regional differences are subtle, they do exist. They manifest themselves regional vis-a-vis accents as well as in cuisine --- e.g. there are several different types of halaszle = fish-soup

Should I hate Norwegians because they eat whale? Their culture. A fur coat in Moscow? Won't blink an eye. Fur coat in New York..watch out for the paint. British eat pork and beans for breakfast!! I hope you get my point. The health care system is a reflection of what is culturally tolerable at this time.

I cannot follow you here.

A new standard is being set, and the Hungarian people, over time, will expect, demand, better...AND this will include the health sysytem too. Dr's and hospitals will have to compete for patients (customers)

That is point. That this is not being induced b/c (excuse the slight) of many people like yourself --- satisfied with with sad excuse for a medical education and insisting that it is what it is not: first-rate.

Szevasz!

[cristagali]

I think we both have our positions and should leave it at that. I am a native English speaker. Coming to Hungary is not the OPTIMAL route for me to study medicine. However, it is a good route, one that I have survived, will soon graduate, have passed MY country's medical board exam and will be integrated into my country's health care system as...guess what...a doctor, with all the privileges to practice medicine... as if I graduated from Harvard Med. No differences my friend. Ain't life grand! Pissing all over the Hungarians, who have now been a democracy for ..how long?..14 years?..that they can't just knock down all the buildings and replace them with skyscapers and put a CT and MRI on every corner? I'm not sure what you expect? I know of No one who says Hungary has the world's best, or even world class health care system. Does a TV with cable in every hospital room make it a "better" system? yeah, they need to upgrade and modernize. maybe my experience is unique. AT Debrecen, we have a spanking brand new radiology department 2004, new dental school 2004, new pediatric wing 2005, every clinic has a remodelled wing, etc... I joke..we have so much money, they are actually putting bricks over the dirt pathways (you know what I mean). OK, Hungary is not for everyone, but you make sound like we are in Maldova or Albania (sorry guys)! I think you need to come back for a visit. And if you hate Hungary so much..change your name to "Mike".. b/c Sandor is about as Hungarian as you can get! szia 8)

[Sandor]

I think we both have our positions and should leave it at that. I am a native English speaker. Coming to Hungary is not the OPTIMAL route for me to study medicine. However, it is a good route, one that I have survived, will soon graduate, have passed MY country's medical board exam and will be integrated into my country's health care system as...guess what...a doctor, with all the privileges to practice medicine... as if I graduated from Harvard Med.

Excellent.

Pissing all over the Hungarians, who have now been a democracy for ..how long?..14 years?..

If you call telling the truth about my compatriots pissing all over them -- then so be it.

that they can't just knock down all the buildings and replace them with skyscapers and put a CT and MRI on every corner? I'm not sure what you expect?

This has nothing to do with skyscrapers nor with CTs/MRIs --- what this has to do with is the collective cognitive dissonance experienced by many a ex-pat med. student in Hungary as well as the local population.

I know of No one who says Hungary has the world's best, or even world class health care system.

If you will bother to remember, the original posting was about the percieved quality of Hungarian medical education vs. reality.
money, they are actually putting bricks over the dirt pathways (you know what I mean).

I know precisely what you mean.

OK, Hungary is not for everyone, but you make sound like we are in Maldova or Albania (sorry guys)!

Dear 'Native English Speaker' -- Moldova is not spelled 'Maldova'.

I think you need to come back for a visit. And if you hate Hungary so much..change your name to "Mike".. b/c Sandor is about as Hungarian as you can get! szia 8)
I hardly hate Hungary. My criticisms are fairly objective and easily understood i.e. Hungarian med. schools are thought to enjoy a fabulous level of education when this cannot be true. Due to some of the factors mentioned in my first post. BTW I do live in Hungary and would guess that my insights into Hungarian life are at least an order, if not more, of magnitude greater than yours

PS While we are on the subject of names, crista galli is spelled with two L's not one

Csa!

-Sandor

[cristagali]

The original cristagalli was already taken, so I had to settle for an 'updated' version..Sandor was already taken, too, so..... As "foreigners" our view of the Hungarian Health System is ...'will it prepare us for roles as physicians in our home country". Since 90% of us do work, ..with multiple job offers, including the good ol' US of A, they (program directors) must feel confident we learned something while here, and obviously we accomplished our goal of learning medicine and becoming doctors. So...sorry to say, the system... for us at least..works. So maybe thats why we feel some obligation to say positives things. Don't get me wrong..there are some shi$%y docs, who hate to teach here, but you know who they are, you avoid them and find the many others who enjoy teaching. It's that simple.
the problem with your diatribe is it is too general...Every health care system has its downsides, and NOT every Hungarian doc is incompetent, or a cheat, or an arrogant ***--le, as you seem to say. ( are you a doc?) Some foreign students hate this place, usually they are the ones transferring to Poland or back home b/c they failed. The ones who survived, don't cherish the experience, but we know we just rode one damn hard ride...and made it. So, we both made our points, ..you should become more involved on the local or even national level of implementing change in the system, to ensure an orderly progression towards a more modern transparent health care system. It sounds like you would keep their feet to the fire. Talking about it on the internet won't change much. Good luck to you . 8)

[Sandor]

As "foreigners" our view of the Hungarian Health System is ...'will it prepare us for roles as physicians in our home country".

You fail to differentiate between the Hungarian healthcare system and the Hungarian medical educational system --- (BTW both are in need of a lot of fixin')

Since 90% of us do work, ..with multiple job offers, including the good ol' US of A, they (program directors) must feel confident we learned something while here, and obviously we accomplished our goal of learning medicine and becoming doctors.

That is excellent. How good of residencies or 'job offers' as you put are people getting?

So...sorry to say, the system... for us at least..works. So maybe thats why we feel some obligation to say positives things.

No problem with giving anyone/thing their due, when they have earned it. My original thesis, which it looks as if it bears repeating, is that Semmelweis et al. by virtue of a made-up reputation is trying to punch above it weight.

Don't get me wrong..there are some shi$%y docs, who hate to teach here, but you know who they are, you avoid them and find the many others who enjoy teaching. It's that simple.

I see. How do you avoid them when you are assigned to them?

the problem with your diatribe is it is too general...

1) My argument is neither a diatribe nor too general. Here is what I wrote in my original post:

"Local Hungarians are also quite enamoured with Semmelweis. Preaching to me how it is world-famous etc etc ---- but besides this 'Semmelweis is great' cultural meme perpetuated by Hungarians and Hungaro-Scandinavians --- is there any hard proof that Semmelweis is respected outside of Hungary? Any rankings? Anything at all?"


Every health care system has its downsides, and NOT every Hungarian doc is incompetent, or a cheat, or an arrogant gluteal--le, as you seem to say.

I would like to know where I wrote that every Hungarian MD is incompetent, a cheat or an arrogant asshole. ???

( are you a doc?)

Nope.

Some foreign students hate this place, usually they are the ones transferring to Poland or back home b/c they failed. The ones who survived, don't cherish the experience, but we know we just rode one darn hard ride...and made it.

Good for you.

So, we both made our points,

If your point is that a lot of ex-pats grind slowly through a medieval system that should be changed while all the while apologizing for it, then you have made your point.

..you should become more involved on the local or even national level of implementing change in the system, to ensure an orderly progression towards a more modern transparent health care system.

Here it ain't gonna happen for a long, long while.

Talking about it on the internet won't change much. Good luck to you . 8)
You are right about that much.

Szia,

Sanyi

[cristagali]

As for Simmelweis (sp?), any school that's been around 200 years deserves some recognition. Maybe it just the Budapest attitude. You guys refer to us other towns as "villages", so maybe they are a little high and mighty...so what? You asked about jobs....mostly Internal Medicine and Family Medicine, but we have grads doing Ob-Gyn, Ophthalmology, even Dermatology ( these are in the states, not sure about other countries, but probably similar).

Avoiding the malignant doc on teaching rounds. Well, it depends which clinic. I'm doing my Ob-Gyn rotation right now. Certain docs just don;t want to mess with the "kulfoldi" students. I'll sit there waiting for rounds, reading my notes, hoping someone will want to discuss cases,, won;t happen, so I respectfully excuse myself, Go to Family Planning clinic downstairs, where I spend the next few hours doing pelvic exams and getting inserviced on transvaginal ultrsound b/c the doc is nice and welcoming and enjoys teaching. I learned a lot. I try to go to Oncology wing later, but they too, are pressed for time and ask me to come back, so I go to L & D and end up 2nd assisting twin C-section. Cool! So you see, the student here at DOTE, will need to be a little proactive, but he/she can have a nice experience here. it won't be spoon fed to you. Ok, I think we can end this on a lighter note. :) viszlat!

[Mr. Opinion]

Ha, this thread is so true. If you wan't to do well at Semmelweis, avoid the university as much as possible. Half the time you spend there is like going to church, ooooohhhh... look the head of the department has entered the lecture hall to mumble some incoherent rubbish, everybody rise to your feet until he gives you the signal to sit again. Ooooohhhhh... look its the end of the semester and the head of the department is actually going to sign my index. An honor indeed.

These schools need to start learning how to use the computer(s) they've bought, get rid of the whole index book/administration system, fire 3/4 of the english secretariat staff, and then actually have the english secretariat open for more than three hours a week.

Seriously, if you've registered over the internet like in normal schools, why go through the process again in 1950's style paper format? And why do you need to have any relationship with the legendary head of the department anyway. Half of them are drunks. If the oompa loompas that run the labs want to kiss his or her a**, thats fine. I couldnt care less.

[Dr.Evil]

Just want to give a input on why there are so many Scandinavians studying med. in Hungary.

Fact is that there is just as many of them in Poland and in Czech, the reason is that all the medical schools in Sweden togheter accept only 410 students yearly and all the medical schools in Norway have 370 seats per year.

Now, to have chance to get accepted they need the avreage grade of 20 out of 20 in all of their subjects during the 3 years of high school (since there are larger number of students with the grade avreage 20 the selection process involves interviews and even a lottery system (swe))

And also worth to mention is that both the Norwegian and the Swedish goverments pay the tution fee for their student and also gives them a weekly loan based on the number of credit points they study per semester.

P.S as you might have noticed there are always more Norweigans than Swedes, this is because they get allot more money, and when they have finished their education the state will reduct half their debt.)

[Tiza]

You deserve your opinions, and yes, things are a bit different here in Hungary. Gee what a surprise? So I guess you should go back to the states and start school there..oh wait..you can't get into the schools in the states, so maybe the caribb..oh wait..they want $50,000 a year, but you get to do clinicals at bumf*** community hospital for two years..yeah! If you don't like it here slacker, then have your mommy put you back on the plane and try some other place. You've already had to write to the dean twice to cover your a$$, I'm sure there will be a lot more letters in your career.

[Dr.Evil]

Tiza what are you exactly getting so upset about?!

I think everyone agrees that things would be smoother if they replaced the amish style lecture/index book system with a software based system.

Secondly, their is alot of eastern-block mentality still living on in these countries, with the professors thinking of themselves as perfect beings, this dosen't exactly stimulate a academic surrounding for students.

Changes in their society are on their way, but the fact that many of the profs in these institutions have been treated in this manner during their schooling dosent give them the right to do so now.

You say that he has the right to have his own opion, but yet you lash out on him as if he as personally insulted you, this manner dosent exactly show that you consider everyone to have the right to form their own opinions.

[Mr. Opinion]

Thats ok. Tiza can have her opinions or rants or whatever too. I'd get my mom to buy me a ticket back to the states except that I'm not American and my mom's dead so... I can't. I love the "love it or leave it" mentality though.

I'm here to get a european license to practice. I don't see why I can't find the school entertaining at the same time. This thread is actually about the reality and the myth of semmelweis university, so why not be honest? I'm sorry if you're feeling insecure about the fact that you're attending a third rate eastern european university.

[Tiza]

My apologies regarding your family. I just get irritated at people who run down the very school that will be on their diploma!!! I just don't get it. DOTE, yeah, a lot of bullsh^& here, but I chose to come, so I put up with it. Why would you want to plaster all over the net, that your school sucks, then have to present that very diploma to a program director?? You're not doing yourself any favors. Yes, the lecture books are ** and the rituals of standing for the profs. gets really old, but in the end, this is our way to our dream. Again, I apologise mentioning your family in the post., I hope things improve for you in Budapest. Good luck.

[xxatti]

I have to admit, I find it strange that you have to stand for the professors, but at the same time I also find it strange that you have to stand for judges in court here in the states. I think it's all really stupid, but that is their custom and likewise it is our custom for judges. You just have to accept it if you want to be a lawyer or if you want to study in Hungary.

[Mr. Opinion]

In the states, you're not actually standing for the judge personally, you're standing for the instituition they represent. Sentencing people to life in prison for heinous crimes is serious biz.

I'd like to say the same is true in Hungary, but infortunately you're standing to satisfy the ego of a profound megalomaniac. Most of the younger (and humbler) profs don't care if you sit or stand now anyway.

I'm actually in the dental program and am planning on practicing in western europe, so I'm not too bothered about the school's reputation. It's not me complaining that's giving Hungary a bad reputation; it's Hungarians giving themselves a bad reputation. And, frankly, I think a little bad press is what they need to light a fire under their a**es.

The two main problems affecting Hungary are a reluctance to change to a more modern (i.e. foreign) system, and shameless corruption. Alot of the educational and administrative staff are getting ready to retire or croak soon; so that's half the problem solved. Unfortunately, I don't see much incentive for younger people to replace them. They get paid next to nothing.

Here's a little related "commentary" from a completely unreliable source (although refreshingly honest compared to crap like the Budapest Times and the Budapest Sun):

Experts (http://www.pestiside.hu/archives/magyar_magic7_the_expert_complexity_conundrum00142 1.php)

Politics (http://www.pestiside.hu/archives/how_to_really_stick_it_to_hungarys_rich_bastards00 1126.php)

[guyim88]

I have to write something in order to write personal msgs

[guyim88]

I will write 2 things in order to fill 5 spots

[guyim88]

so 3 posts

[guyim88]

maybe I will write 4 posts - im done