Canadian...looking at euro schools

[juls_sal]

here goes...

The last time I came close to a biology or chemistry text was back in 1997. Yes, I plan on making the effort of going back to night or adult school to prepare for med school.

I would like peoples opinion on what they think of their school, about the program, the professors, about relocating and adjusting to a new culture, about the USMLE and how successful they've been in getting through....pros and cons?

Would you recommend your school to an interested applicant? why or why not?

Canada but specifically Toronto is too competitive, there are Einsteins but not enough schools. In the U.S there are way too many schools but high tuition costs so international students don't bother. My last option is Europe.

They say North America is a land of opportunities!! Imagine this, a taxi driver who once used to be a doctor. You've gotta wonder...

[Miklos]

hey

I am a Canadian with a B.A and looking at medical schools in Europe i.e Poland or Russia.

Can anyone recommend or suggest accredited schools that are affiliated with the U.S.


Thanks

Julia

I'm not certain that I understand your question.

The legitimate schools in the region are all state owned/chartered and locally accredited. See the first page of the sticky on top of this forum for a partial list.

What do you mean by a US affiliation? Are you looking for programs that provide clinical rotations in the US?

Miklos

[gvanderv]

Hi,

Try this:

http://www.mdprogram.com/md/index.shtml

There are a number of Canadians in my class. As Miklos is indicating we are not really affiliated with the U.S. But you can take the USMLE's. Just stay away from agents. A number of Schools in Poland use agents.

Bye ........... Gerry

[cristagali]

Lots of canadians at my school, too, in Debrecen. They seem to get lots of rotations back in canada in Toronto and halifax, etc. Also they seem to do well on ULSMLE too. Most of the english program schools don;t have formal rotations with hospitals in the states. But we all seem to find a place or two to hone our skills before graduating. DOTE has a semester with SUNY-Buffalo (Hungarian students only), but Simmelwies has a fifth pathway program with New York medical College. ANyway, it shouldn't be a problem to find rotations back in the states. (except PENN) HA! and of course avoid agents...contact school on your own and don't let them "refer" you to agent. Just apply on your own. good luck. 8)

[Miklos]

Lots of canadians at my school, too, in Debrecen. They seem to get lots of rotations back in canada in Toronto and halifax, etc. Also they seem to do well on ULSMLE too. Most of the english program schools don;t have formal rotations with hospitals in the states. But we all seem to find a place or two to hone our skills before graduating. DOTE has a semester with SUNY-Buffalo (Hungarian students only), but Simmelwies has a fifth pathway program with New York medical College. ANyway, it shouldn't be a problem to find rotations back in the states. (except PENN) HA! and of course avoid agents...contact school on your own and don't let them "refer" you to agent. Just apply on your own. good luck. 8)

NB Anyone can do a fifth pathway, as long as their school allows it and they qualify. See http://www.nymc.edu/depthome/fifth.asp

[juls_sal]

i'm looking at schools that prepare students for USMLE and have a high rate of graduates with residencies in the US.

any tips?

[Miklos]

i'm looking at schools that prepare students for USMLE and have a high rate of graduates with residencies in the US.

any tips?

In Europe, IMO, Irish schools 'may' fit that bill. They attract a significant amount of North Americans and they seem to have little trouble getting back to the US/Canada. In addition, an Irish degree is also a gateway to the EU. Downsides: more than four years and very pricey.

The problem is that none of the European schools (to my knowledge) so far publishes what I consider to be believable statistics on residencies or first time USMLE pass rates. Not even the Irish ones, though they claim near absolute numbers.
(This issue has been beaten to death on this forum, so please excuse me for not elaborating. I'm certain the the KMU guys will opt to disagree, as is their right.)

Outside of Europe: SGU/Ross/AUC; They each have a twenty five year history of getting their students residencies. SGU & Ross publish the names and residencies gained by their graduates. AUC only publishes the residencies. They have a proven track record. Downsides: Just as pricey as Ireland. Other downsides can be found by checking out their fora here on ValueMD.

Good luck.

Miklos

[gvanderv]

Hey,

It kills me to agree with Miklos, but I'm in Poznan and I can't get any hard numbers. All I can say is you can pass the USMLE and get a residency in the US. You get out what you put into it. The pass rate anywhere outside the US will be lower, because of the quality of the students intering the program. A number of people in my class, probably the majority have no intention of going to the US. The classes until this year have been very small, maybe around twenty. My class has 65 people from all over the world.

Bye ........... Gerry

[neongoat]

With the exception of maybe 3 or 4, these foreign medical schools can't publish real graduation, USLME, and residency placement numbers from their American and Canadian students without opening themselves up to massive criticism and "bashing" from other schools, media, and potential students. This is because (unfortunately) almost every single Canadian or American student who goes to a foreign medical school is not able to go to school in their home country. This is not the case for everyone of course, but honestly, most of these students were not strong enough academically in their home country, and they are being forced to look to other schools.
I am a very big supporter of foreign medical schools and I have met students at these schools who failed chemistry or had a bad MCAT score who were excellent students in medical school and I believe will make excellent doctors. I have also met many students who cannot solve basic problems well using science and I would be scared to leave them alone to diagnose and treat patients. But to ask these schools to present accurate data concerning the number of students who fail or quit or cannot pass the USMLE is really asking a lot. Another way to look at it is this: If they had this data to report and were proud of it, then they definitely would report it. So when you don't see it, I believe you can safely assume that compared to American/Canadian schools they have significantly higher drop out rates, lower or non-existent MCAT scores, lower USMLE scores, and lower rates of residency matching for their American/Canadian students. If, however, you hypothetically placed one of these foreign schools from Ireland, Czech republic, or even Moscow in Boston and called it Harvard, without changing any aspect of the curriculum I think you would see dramatic increases in USMLE scores and residency matches. My point is that many of these foreign medical schools are faced with a foreign student body that is academically much weaker than the American/Canadian medical schools. I am not an expert and this is just my impression from my brief time at UAG in Mexico.

Does any of this mean that you cannot go to any of these foreign medical schools and get a good education and match in residency, of course not! That all depends on the kind of person you are.

As most of the veterans here will tell you, visiting the school is a priceless experience. Unfortunately, visiting the Palacky medical school in rural Czech Republic or Moscow State Medical Academy is not an easy task for many of us :)

[Miklos]

With the exception of maybe 3 or 4, these foreign medical schools can't publish real graduation, USLME, and residency placement numbers from their American and Canadian students without opening themselves up to massive criticism and "bashing" from other schools, media, and potential students. This is because (unfortunately) almost every single Canadian or American student who goes to a foreign medical school is not able to go to school in their home country. This is not the case for everyone of course, but honestly, most of these students were not strong enough academically in their home country, and they are being forced to look to other schools.
I am a very big supporter of foreign medical schools and I have met students at these schools who failed chemistry or had a bad MCAT score who were excellent students in medical school and I believe will make excellent doctors. I have also met many students who cannot solve basic problems well using science and I would be scared to leave them alone to diagnose and treat patients. But to ask these schools to present accurate data concerning the number of students who fail or quit or cannot pass the USMLE is really asking a lot. Another way to look at it is this: If they had this data to report and were proud of it, then they definitely would report it. So when you don't see it, I believe you can safely assume that compared to American/Canadian schools they have significantly higher drop out rates, lower or non-existent MCAT scores, lower USMLE scores, and lower rates of residency matching for their American/Canadian students. If, however, you hypothetically placed one of these foreign schools from Ireland, Czech republic, or even Moscow in Boston and called it Harvard, without changing any aspect of the curriculum I think you would see dramatic increases in USMLE scores and residency matches. My point is that many of these foreign medical schools are faced with a foreign student body that is academically much weaker than the American/Canadian medical schools. I am not an expert and this is just my impression from my brief time at UAG in Mexico.

Does any of this mean that you cannot go to any of these foreign medical schools and get a good education and match in residency, of course not! That all depends on the kind of person you are.

As most of the veterans here will tell you, visiting the school is a priceless experience. Unfortunately, visiting the Palacky medical school in rural Czech Republic or Moscow State Medical Academy is not an easy task for many of us :)

I see what you are saying, but nevertheless I disagree.

The schools in this region have an extremely high attrition rate, partly for the reasons you describe above, partly because that's the system. The locals are 'weeded out' just as brutally, at least in Hungary. (Professor's attitude can be described like this: "So...you want to become a doctor? Let's see how you deal with failure.")

This speaks to the strength of the system as perceived by locals, not potential weaknesses.

My take is that if a school goes out of its way to recruit North Americans (and not all six year programs do), it should be forthright with them.

There is nothing wrong with advertising in the following manner:

Yes, our school has a relatively liberal admissions policy. This, however, does not mean that everyone that enters graduates. In fact, we have a high attrition rate, as some of our foreign students either have difficulty adjusting to the system or are not adequately prepared. However, we offer the possibilty of learning medicine and a chance for the individual to succeed. Our statistics are as follows...

Miklos

[Miklos]

Hey,

It kills me to agree with Miklos, but I'm in Poznan and I can't get any hard numbers. All I can say is you can pass the USMLE and get a residency in the US. You get out what you put into it. The pass rate anywhere outside the US will be lower, because of the quality of the students intering the program. A number of people in my class, probably the majority have no intention of going to the US. The classes until this year have been very small, maybe around twenty. My class has 65 people from all over the world.

Bye ........... Gerry

Gerry,

Sorry about stressing you like that.

If you do get hard numbers, please let us all know.

BTW, where do most of the people in the program want to go (or where are they from)? I'm assuming this is the four year program, right?

Miklos

[gvanderv]

Miklos,

We have a little over twenty people from Taiwan. Seems there is an agent for the Asian region. They indicate that they will return to Asia. We also have England and Australia represented. And yes in the four year program. And of course Canada and USA.

Bye ........... Gerry

[Miklos]

Miklos,

We have a little over twenty people from Taiwan. Seems there is an agent for the Asian region. They indicate that they will return to Asia. We also have England and Australia represented. And yes in the four year program. And of course Canada and USA.

Bye ........... Gerry

Interesting. Thanks.

Miklos

[euromd]

I see what you are saying, but nevertheless I disagree.

The schools in this region have an extremely high attrition rate, partly for the reasons you describe above, partly because that's the system. The locals are 'weeded out' just as brutally, at least in Hungary. (Professor's attitude can be described like this: "So...you want to become a doctor? Let's see how you deal with failure.")

This speaks to the strength of the system as perceived by locals, not potential weaknesses.

My take is that if a school goes out of its way to recruit North Americans (and not all six year programs do), it should be forthright with them.

There is nothing wrong with advertising in the following manner:

Yes, our school has a relatively liberal admissions policy. This, however, does not mean that everyone that enters graduates. In fact, we have a high attrition rate, as some of our foreign students either have difficulty adjusting to the system or are not adequately prepared. However, we offer the possibilty of learning medicine and a chance for the individual to succeed. Our statistics are as follows...

Miklos

I'm in the Czech Rep and weeding out process for the locals is brutal too. I don't see a problem with that. Some people don't get A+ in all their premed classes and have to pay the price by never getting into med school in North America? Here at least there is a small allowance for lower grades in the beginning (that C in physics) but you better be able to prove yourself later. Getting one bad mark doesn't make you a permanently bad doctor.

[blueeyes]

...This is because (unfortunately) almost every single Canadian or American student who goes to a foreign medical school is not able to go to school in their home country. This is not the case for everyone of course, but honestly, most of these students were not strong enough academically in their home country, and they are being forced to look to other schools.
...My point is that many of these foreign medical schools are faced with a foreign student body that is academically much weaker than the American/Canadian medical schools...

Hi neongoat,

I think you are mistaken. I believe students pick foreign schools for a variety of reasons. Some of us had good grades in a North American university but chose to attend a foreign school precisely because of its reputation (and likely a strong interest in that country's culture). You are right that many foreign schools have a high failure rate but this does not necessarily imply that the schools are weak. At the end of the first year in French medical schools, students sit a series of very difficult exams known as the "concours" and only the top 17% or so are permitted to continue. Of course this appears harsh but the underlying goal is to be as fair as possible. The idea seems to be that students can come from different schools (and different countries) with different standards but the "concours" is the same for everyone. However, this also means that selection is based purely on academic criteria and there is no attempt to screen for subjective qualities that might make someone a better doctor. It also fosters a level of academic competitiveness that can be disconcerting to someone accustomed to a North American university. (I'm not claiming this is a good thing; on the contrary, I think this may be one of the bigger shortcomings of the French system.)

I have no idea whether one system produces better doctors than the other, but my general impression is that the academic standards of French medical schools are very high. To further complicate things, students in many countries, not just France, attend high schools with a much more academic focus than in Canadian or American schools. To put this in perspective, consider that French students study differential equations and organic chemistry in high school. In Canada, these are second year university courses.

There may well be shortcomings in French and other non-North American medical schools but I think the academic standards of a number of these schools are at least as high as in many North American schools.

Just my two cents.

blueeyes :wink:

[neongoat]

I don't think that you read my post carefully (but I didn't read your carefully either so we're even :D)Keep in mind that everything I was saying was referring to American and Canadian students in offshore schools (not the native medical students of the countries).
I think you are mistaken. I believe students pick foreign schools for a variety of reasons. Some of us had good grades in a North American university but chose to attend a foreign school precisely because of its reputation (and likely a strong interest in that country's culture).

I agree with that, and in my post I said "almost every single Canadian or American student." I still claim that this is true. If you take all the American and Canadian students who are in an offshore medical schools now, I think you will find that almost all of them could not attend school in their native country because of academic reasons. Just to repeat myself, this is definitely not true for all of these students, but for most of them. Of course I have no data to back up this claim :) and I would appreciate anyone who could provide real data to prove me right or wrong.

You are right that many foreign schools have a high failure rate
I didn't say that, and I don't agree with that statement. What I was implying is that the attrition rate of American and Canadian students in offshore medical schools is higher than American and Canadian medical students in the US and Canada. This is to be expected of course. The problem is that when people or companies (like the horribly disgusting, completely bullshite US News and World Reports....sorry small rant) publish rankings or statistics about medical schools - they mislead people. Your example of the French system is a good example. When I was at the medical school in Memphis Tennessee, I was told by more than one person that they lose less than 10 students per year, and half of them leave for personal reasons. Now, you take an attrition rate like that and compare it to the attrition rate in the first cycle of medical school in France and what do you have:
1. A statistic that makes UT Memphis look really good compared to the French system
2. A statistic that means nothing
3. Lots of people who read the statistic and are not informed enough to see that it is complete bullshite.

It's not very informative to say "failure rate" without defining what "failure" is. Attrition rate (which I think is what you meant) is a little different. A medical school in the US with a high attrition rate would be considered to be "failing" while this is a normal, expected, designed process in other medical schools (like in France). A medical school in France with a very low attrition rate would be seen by the French as a joke, a school to be avoided.

Another example, just because you all have nothing better to do than read my silly posts, is the attitude towards cheating. I love this. When I lived in France, I was initially surprised to see everyone regularly cheating on tests. Just the thought of this blasphemy in US medical schools. Does this mean that the French are all stinking cheaters who are dumbasses ;), of course not. It's just a different system. And it's a system worth studying and understanding, because coming out of high school (as you said) the dumbest, stinkiest French student will be an Einstein compared to your average American high school graduate (omg his unsupported opinions just won't stop!)

There may well be shortcomings in French and other non-North American medical schools but I think the academic standards of a number of these schools are at least as high as in many North American schools.
I agree with this, and I think that, in general, we are talking about 2 different things in our posts. Every system has shortcomings, and every system has strengths. To take this a step further (or a hundred steps further), anyone who believes that the choice of medical school alone determines the quality of a doctor is simply mistaken. Anyone who claims that American medical schools (and American medical care for that matter) are better than medical schools in France, Germany, Czech Republic, Japan, or any other developed country is mistaken as well. I say this because although I cannot prove that any one school is "better" than any other school, I think that by looking at the doctors produced by any given medical school, one will always find "outstanding" physicians and physicians who are not so outstanding. America spends a lot more on it health care than any other country, so some people like justify this gross overspending by saying that the health care here is better than in other countries. I think that anyone who has had intimate exposure to any 2 countries' medical systems will agree that each have their strengths and weaknesses but it is impossible to say that one is "better." People who say one is better have an agenda or they are selling something.

In the end, my point is this. Nobody gives a crap where you go to med school. Residency is the place to learn from the good doctors that are available and avoid the bad ones that you are forced to work with. After residency you and only you decide how good of a doctor you will be and medical school just doesn't matter that much.

Disclaimer: All of the opinions and most of the facts presented in Neon Goat's posts are stupid/wrong/not based on anything real. Have a great day! Also, French people don't really stink (unless you're on the bus in the summertime).

[blueeyes]

Canada but specifically Toronto is too competitive, there are Einsteins but not enough schools. In the U.S there are way too many schools but high tuition costs so international students don't bother. My last option is Europe.

In response to juls_sal's original question, if you are concerned about skyrocketing tuition you might want to consider France: although there are some minimal charges, "tuition" here is for all intents and purposes free. However, if you find Toronto (and I'm guessing the University of Toronto specifically) to be too competitive, be forewarned that the first year of medicine in France (at least in Paris) will raise competitiveness to a degree unlike anything you have ever seen--even at the University of Toronto (yes, I (also?) went to U of T. :wink:) Just remember, this only lasts for one year.

...I would like peoples opinion on what they think of their school, about the program, the professors, about relocating and adjusting to a new culture, about the USMLE and how successful they've been in getting through....pros and cons?

I like my school, especially the professors and the program. However, I find there are significant cultural differences between France (especially Paris) and North America. I suspect such differences would be even more pronounced for non-native speakers venturing to an Eastern European school. I picked my school partly because it is in Paris but Prague, the "Paris of the East", Budapest, and ,yes, even Moscow seem every bit as interesting. In fact, if it had just been a matter of location, I likely would have picked a school in one of these cities.

As for the USMLE, from what I can tell, other countries' accreditation tests have no effect on how courses are taught here. Students seem more concerned about national exams within France like the new ENC (a national exam that ranks students at the end of their studies). I suspect Eastern European schools would be more receptive to modifying their curricula to better prepare students for the USMLE. After all, these schools have more American students and I suspect they (the schools) may even depend on the revenue generated by foreign tuition. It is clearly in such a school's interest to respond to foreign students' needs. In France, on the other hand... :roll:

blueeyes

[euromd]

As for the USMLE, from what I can tell, other countries' accreditation tests have no effect on how courses are taught here. Students seem more concerned about national exams within France like the new ENC (a national exam that ranks students at the end of their studies). I suspect Eastern European schools would be more receptive to modifying their curricula to better prepare students for the USMLE. After all, these schools have more American students and I suspect they (the schools) may even depend on the revenue generated by foreign tuition. It is clearly in such a school's interest to respond to foreign students' needs. In France, on the other hand... :roll:
blueeyes

EE schools do not care about the USMLE. they teach to their own national certification exams because it is a graduation requirement to pass those exams. Out of our incoming class of ~100 international students, less than 10 are from the USA. This is not counting the 600 1st year local students. Foreign $$$ is good for upgrading facilities, which they have done. Do you think they will change the teaching style for less than 1.25% of the student body of the faculty?

There are USMLE study guides available in the bookstore and I am sure that those who are planning to write it get together and study for it. Graduating from my uni, you don't even need to write the PLAB to practice in the UK - this is heaven for the Brits!

-S

[peacefuljourney]

Hi.

2 comments. Re: stats. Because a foreign medical school doesn't post it's results doesn't say anything about the school or its students. It says they don't post the stats. In the case of Comenius, it is because they are too damn disorganized to be collecting such things and they don't care. They are here to train doctors for the EU. Marketing to the states or elsewhere is really not their forte and posting USMLE stats is a marketing ploy (info) that is interesting to potential us students.

Informally, 20 - 25 students from the slovak program write the usmle and leave for the states every year and about the same leave for germany (from a class of 300). In the foreign program, there are very few uppper year students - and those that were here transfer back to their home countries after a couple of years. The 4th year English program (current) will see about 4 guys write the exam and in my year (3rd) there will also be about 5 people. No one in the study office is interested in whether or not we are preparing for this exam. No special prep. is offered.

In other words, the reasons have nothing to do with hiding or showing off - rather in their mind it is simply irrelevant.

Second point. Re: quality of student in foreign medical schools. Just because you didn't get in 'at home' doesn't mean you are inferior, have poorer grades, are less intelligent etc. Many stupid get accepted in Canada because of taking easy course, dropping/adding on time, griping about stupid points on every course, attending 3rd rate universities and not taking advanced physics - learning to learn in other words. Also, in our case, the cost factor - we couldn't afford to study at home or in the states. Are there stupid people in my class? definitely. Will they graduate? likely not. Will they make the usmle and thus be 'sorted' as on par with us grads? Yes. Some won't make it back.

S-