cali

[UMP]

i don't see why universal stateside approval is that necessary... i for one don't ever plan on going out to california and working. I'm fine with the midwest and east coast, and if 10 years down the line I want to move out there, well, I can. But, I doubt it. Neilc are you planning on going to Cali, or are you just saying the California thing over and over ... for no reason ?

[ABCD]

One of my relatives is a Dr from India who had a practice in Illinois.
He had never planned on moving to Cali (much like yourself). A hospital in Norther Cali made him a great offer to move there, a huge sign on bonus, funded setting up a practice there .....
Wonder how he would have felt if he couldnt practice in California.

Why you would go through all the trouble of becoming an MD and then handcuff yourself as to where you can & can not practice in the States - is beyond me.

But on a personal note - it will mean less competition for those of us who can practice there. So by all means go study in Poland or elsewhere that is not California approved.

[neilc]

i don't see why universal stateside approval is that necessary... i for one don't ever plan on going out to california and working. I'm fine with the midwest and east coast, and if 10 years down the line I want to move out there, well, I can. But, I doubt it. Neilc are you planning on going to Cali, or are you just saying the California thing over and over ... for no reason ?

it is not so much the california thing, but the approval in all states...here are my reasons.

1. it seems foolish to limit yourself as to where you can practice, as you never know where the future may lead
2. smaller states without the appeal of california may not have the resources to evaluate schools as california does. therefore, they may adopt the list california uses (new mexico is an example, and other states may do the same)
3. approval by california at least means that the school has demonstrated a certain standard of education. you can be certain that you will not be going to some fly by night school operating out of some dudes basement
4. there are many, many good schools that are approved in all the states, therefore there seems to be no good reason to pick a school that is not approved. no matter what part of the world you want to live in, or what type of school you want to attend, there is a school that has universal approval. like the carib? go to sgu, ross, or auc. europe? ireland, uk, hungary, czech republic for english programs, or native language programs elsewhere. go to any of the australian schools...or isreal.

there are just too many choices to fool with some limitation on your license to practice medicine. you are going to suffer getting this degree for many, many years. make sure it is as valuable and useful as it can be.

[Miklos]

it is not so much the california thing, but the approval in all states...here are my reasons.

1. it seems foolish to limit yourself as to where you can practice, as you never know where the future may lead
2. smaller states without the appeal of california may not have the resources to evaluate schools as california does. therefore, they may adopt the list california uses (new mexico is an example, and other states may do the same)
3. approval by california at least means that the school has demonstrated a certain standard of education. you can be certain that you will not be going to some fly by night school operating out of some dudes basement
4. there are many, many good schools that are approved in all the states, therefore there seems to be no good reason to pick a school that is not approved. no matter what part of the world you want to live in, or what type of school you want to attend, there is a school that has universal approval. like the carib? go to sgu, ross, or auc. europe? ireland, uk, hungary, czech republic for english programs, or native language programs elsewhere. go to any of the australian schools...or isreal.

there are just too many choices to fool with some limitation on your license to practice medicine. you are going to suffer getting this degree for many, many years. make sure it is as valuable and useful as it can be.

Great post.

[cristagali]

Slightly related to post, CA medical Board will make on-sight visit to Debrecen in December or January. This is supposedly the last official thing needed to FINALLY push this paperwork ahead. Hopefully they'll bring their warm coats!! So...if you're a prospective student, AND cali is a place of interest, it should be no problem if you graduate from DOTE. However, always check with cali med board to make sure all things are in order whichever school you choose. Good luck! 8)

[Miklos]

Slightly related to post, CA medical Board will make on-sight visit to Debrecen in December or January. This is supposedly the last official thing needed to FINALLY push this paperwork ahead. Hopefully they'll bring their warm coats!! So...if you're a prospective student, AND cali is a place of interest, it should be no problem if you graduate from DOTE. However, always check with cali med board to make sure all things are in order whichever school you choose. Good luck! 8)

That's weird.

From what I have heard (someone please correct me if I am wrong), neither Semmelweis, Szeged nor Charles University required an on-site visit.

Unfortunately, it does not mean that the school is automatically approved. The on-site team needs to complete a report to the medical board which then needs to make a decision.

However, it is a big step forward. Hopefully, they'll approve the school soon thereafter.

Miklos

[Magyarorszag69]

In one of my causual visits to the Student Office, I overheard another application brewing...... I think NY might be sent out within the following year !!!! :P

[cristagali]

yes, the Dean's office was also baffled about the on-site visit, especially during the EXAM period. There will be very little upper level classes at that time. The Dean's office requested a change of date, but so far this seems to be the date they want to arrive. The Hungarian program was approved "site unseen", but no problem if they want to visit. They'll definately be impressed, but the time of the academic year may not be so revealing. Oh well, like I said, i 'm not from cali, but I've got hooked on this "beauracracy stuff" and would like to see this finalized before I leave here. And for the NY post, there are many DOTE grads working in NY, so I don't think there is a problem there either. 8)

[Miklos]

And for the NY post, there are many DOTE grads working in NY, so I don't think there is a problem there either. 8)

Just so we are not mixing apples and oranges...

California's requirements differ greatly from New York's. Unless the program/school is explicitly approved by the Medical Board of California, students/graduates CANNOT complete ANY CLINICAL WORK in California.

In contrast, New York allows up to 12 weeks of clinical instruction for students that come from schools which are not formally approved. In addition, one can apply for a residency in New York state even if one comes from a program that has not been formally approved. Licensure is more difficult, but not categorically impossible for a graduate of an unapproved program. See http://www.op.nysed.gov/med.htm for more info.

[Magyarorszag69]

Miklos you are absolutely right.....


Crista, you are correct as well there are numerous DOTE Grads working in NY presently, but hopefully in the near future (with in the next year) there will be no limit on the number of weeks of Clerkship a student can do. As of now, as Miklos has stated we are hindered to doing only 12 weeks of Clinical Clerkships in NY, but after approval for the state of NY you will be able to do as many weeks of Clinicals as you wish and still be able to match in the state of NY.....

On the other coast.... California is another issue, until approval is granted (Hopefully, very soon from what I hear) you are not granted credit for Clinicals done within the state of California.

As the greater majority of you all know, each state has specified regulations, therefore it is wise to know whether your University is approved or not and what criteria are required or permitted for medical licensure in that state.

Best of luck !

[cristagali]

Wasn't mixing fruit here, just in a hurry and was trying to save time. The Cali issue for DOTE will most likely be resolved here within the next year. vege. :lol:

[Miklos]

On the other coast.... California is another issue, until approval is granted (Hopefully, very soon from what I hear) you are not granted credit for Clinicals done within the state of California.

My understanding from Pat Park's posts, is that one would actually be breaking the law if one where to complete clinical rotations in California coming from an unapproved program.

See

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?p=94113&highlight=#94113

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?p=116326&highlight=#116326

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?p=7983&highlight=#7983

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?p=90668&highlight=#90668

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?p=3399&highlight=#3399

[Magyarorszag69]

Miklos,

From my understanding of things, and of prior students from DOTE actually doing rotations in California, you are not permitted to utilize it towards licensing or applying for residency in the state of California (until your Universtiy is accredited).

Here let me give you a scenario : Lets say a student from an unapproved University gets the opportunity to a 12 week Internal Medicine Clerkship at Stanford - and you are able to get a LOR from the PD. That student is permitted by LAW to include those 12 weeks of IM rotations from Stanford towards his/her application for residency in any other state (which permits you to do over 12 weeks of rotations), but until his/her University is approved by California state Medical Board he can NOT apply for residency or licensure in California. You get what I am saying.....


Pat Park said:
California law prohibits any training completed in unrecognized or disapproved medical schools from being applied toward the requirements to train in or become licensed in California.

[Miklos]

Miklos,

From my understanding of things, and of prior students from DOTE actually doing rotations in California, you are not permitted to utilize it towards licensing or applying for residency in the state of California (until your Universtiy is accredited).

Here let me give you a scenario : Lets say a student from an unapproved University gets the opportunity to a 12 week Internal Medicine Clerkship at Stanford - and you are able to get a LOR from the PD. That student is permitted by LAW to include those 12 weeks of IM rotations from Stanford towards his/her application for residency in any other state (which permits you to do over 12 weeks of rotations), but until his/her University is approved by California state Medical Board he can NOT apply for residency or licensure in California. You get what I am saying.....

How did we get caught up in (another?) legal thread? :D

I see what you are saying.

The only one that knows for sure is Pat Park. From one of the posts I quoted above. Students enrolled in medical schools that are disapproved or not recognized by the California Medical Board need to seek clerkship opportunities outside California rather than chasing after loopholes around California law.

If I read it correctly, you cannot do ANY clinical training in California (student/graduate) until your school is approved, as you are not recognized as a student or graduate.

I'm going to ask Pat Park for advice on this.

Miklos

[neilc]

Miklos,

From my understanding of things, and of prior students from DOTE actually doing rotations in California, you are not permitted to utilize it towards licensing or applying for residency in the state of California (until your Universtiy is accredited).

Here let me give you a scenario : Lets say a student from an unapproved University gets the opportunity to a 12 week Internal Medicine Clerkship at Stanford - and you are able to get a LOR from the PD. That student is permitted by LAW to include those 12 weeks of IM rotations from Stanford towards his/her application for residency in any other state (which permits you to do over 12 weeks of rotations), but until his/her University is approved by California state Medical Board he can NOT apply for residency or licensure in California. You get what I am saying.....


Pat Park said:
California law prohibits any training completed in unrecognized or disapproved medical schools from being applied toward the requirements to train in or become licensed in California.

i spoke with pat park about this before...it is ILLEGAL for you to participate in any medical training if you are from an unapproved school. she specifically said that it was not ok to do any rotations, or even shadowning type work. now, if you don't put it on your application or transcript, they likely would never find out, but if you did get caught, you are breaking the law...

[cristagali]

DOTE Hungarian program is approved by State of California. DOTE English program accreditation is pending. DOTE folks, stop bringing this issue up. it's a silly argument and prospective students will be confused. The gentlemen that they are, our fellow colleagues at the other EE schools enjoy putting their thumb in our eye over this Cali thing, so my suggestion is to just drop it until Pat Parks puts the English program up on the web site. I am for certain after all the stuff she hears, EVERY grad from EE schools will have his/her application gone over with a fine tooth comb. :lol: szia

[Miklos]

The gentlemen that they are, our fellow colleagues at the other EE schools enjoy putting their thumb in our eye over this Cali thing...

I can assure you, that's not my intention (and I highly doubt that it is neilc's either.) I hope that Debrecen gets approved without delay.

I simply think that it is very useful for students (or potential students) to be aware of the law, so that they do not inadvertantly break it and suffer the consequences.

Miklos

NB Every license application is examined with the equivalent of a 'fine-tooth' comb.

[cristagali]

It was said more in fun than seriousness. A little "sibling rivalry" is good. :lol:

[PatPark]

Let me end this controversy about clinical clerkship training in
California. Miklos and NeilC are correct. If the California Medical
Board does not recognize a particular medical school, its students are
NOT eligible to complete clinical clerkships in California at all. It
doesn’t matter if the students never intend to apply for training or
licensure in California during their lifetime. How can something be
illegal if you’re using it for licensure purposes but legal if you’re not?
This is not logical. If you’re attending a non-California-recognized
medical school, you cannot complete clinical clerkships in California.
So you will not be contacting Stanford or any other California training
provider, hoping to obtain training without the Medical Board
prosecuting you. If you want to train in California, enroll in a
California-recognized medical school or schools. Also, the Medical
Board of California does not have a site inspection scheduled to
Debrecen University and has not communicated with Debrecen
officials about conducting any inspections. The review of Debrecen
University’s application has NOT commenced, and we would
appreciate your patience in this matter.

[Miklos]

Dear Ms. Park,

Thank you very much for posting the reply.

I (and I'm sure many others) appreciate you taking your time to participate in the forum and clarify this issue for us.

Miklos