DO NOT ROTATE TO KINGS COUNTY

[delip88]

do not rotate to kings county hosp for internal med. they will use/abuse u, u will not study/learn, no time, u are supervised by PAs, no residents on that unit, they are very disrespectful mostly attending. other medical schools are assigned to units with residents, this is the only program that fail some students. research n think about it. its 12 credits approx $9-10,000

Edited by moderator for innapropriate content.

[2ndyear]

I edited this post because I believe the message about this hospital has gotten out. I hope they will soon make the necessary changes for the upcoming Ross students. Good luck to everyone! :D

[RossMD2006]

Thanks guys for the info.

Im sorry to hear about your situation. Hopefully, others can shed light on some other rotations so those in Miami or on the island can be aware. It really sucks to pay all that money and get some sorry training.

Good luck.

[Chianti]

Sorry to hear about King's.

I am doing IM at Wyckoff Heights. It is a great rotation thus far. I am learning a lot every day (the attendings are all, except for a couple, great teachers). And there is plenty of time to study as well.

So if you can, avoid King's and go to Wyckoff.

[babydaddy75]

MINE INCLUDED. I rotated in IM at neither Wycoff or King's however I know many people who did both so I thought I would give a somewhat varying report on what I have heard from them. One thing both seem to have in common is lack of strict student supervision. Where they seem to differ is how much you as a student are responsible for.
Kings: Did hear that there is little direct supervision alot of the time and it is really student directed learning. You have ALOT more responsibility here which might be good for you or bad for you. I have heard several people who loved it do to the fact that they learned real well how to manage a pt. and work as a team (with other students). I have also until reading the preceding very RUDE and unprofessional post above heard nothing but great things about Dr. Reese. That being said the rotation is probably not for everyone and may be better suited for Ross students with more basic science knowledge and some previous healthcare experience.
Wycoff: I have heard reports (and seen the products of Wycoff int. med.) that makes me feel it is a TERRIBLE place to go for IM. It seems that you have NO responsibilities and very little pt. interaction outside of doing pt. H&P's. Most students I have rotated with after their IM rotation at Wycoff seem completely clueless and unprepared for other rotations as a result of doing med. there. I have heard many say the days are short and incredibly easy and nobody cares what you do most the time. In my opinion one would do themeselves a favor to avoid IM at Wycoff.
Before anyone responds please remember that this board exists to foster information to potentials and other Ross students. Please don't attack me or anyone else (i.e. attendings at either hospital) directly. or construe my statements as attacks on you if you did your IM at either facility. Rather state your opinion on the topic and why you agree or disagree with mine and other posters statements. Thanks

P.S. I did IM in Md and the program was somewhere between the vastly different levels of responsibility and supervision that I have heard about at Wycoff and Kings and I would highly recommend it to anyone who breaks 200 on step one (their cut off) It's called Harbor Hospital in Baltimore Md.

[Skip Intro]

I pretty much have to agree with what babydaddy says above.

There is also VERY bad blood between the IM and FP services at Wyckoff, although having done both of those core clerkships at Wyckoff I can tell you that I learned/did a heck of a lot more during the FP rotation.

The problem with IM at Wyckoff is that the residents don't care about teaching because they are not held accountable for students and, aside from the regular didactics (some of which are quite good), they don't empower students to do anything more than stand around and look pretty. So, at Wyckoff you get a lot of teaching with no responsibility

King's IM, from what I've heard, is the perfect diametric of Wyckoff: too much responsibility without any real teaching.

-Skip

[williamrobert]

Did you guys get any real say as to where you did any of your core rotations? Or are we pretty much stuck with what Ross assigns us?

[FRNC]

Pls bear with me these may be elementary questions:

1. Is the IM rotation at Kings County Hospital a "Greenbook" ACGME certified program? I don't see it listed on the ACGME website under Internal Medicne. Or is it "Greenbook" because it has residency programs for other specialties?

2. Anybody know the ACGME certification number for Kings County?

[delip88]

u can not compare wyckoff im to kings, wyckoff is comparable to what us med student get from im rotation. wyckof u are given a great opportunity to engage and learn. its up to u to learn. u are not pressured. u are assigned to a team consisting of an attending physician and residents, they have a patient load. u are considered a part of the team. u round with them every am. if u have question they are VERY happy to explain/ teach u, (if u ask). i have not heard of any situation where u ask and they ignore u or yell at u. scutwork is ABSOLUTELY NOT ALLOWED by the attendings. u are reqiured to do many h/ps(database) u can choose the pts from any team. if u choose pts from your team u can follow the pts together with your attending, although u are not allowed to write on pt chart but u can follow the pts by writing your notes daily on your paper and discuss your pts with the attending. if u want to learn procedures like iv u are required to be taught by iv team b/4 u can do it without supervision, unlike kings u are not taught by certified staff, u are expected to learn from other students who laerned by trial and error. they may not be doing right but no body cares. at wyckof u have time to study(step2 is closer than u think), look up what u encountered, kings u are there all day lot of scut, no time to study,spend long hrs in the dirty unit. at wyckof u are allowed to examine any medicine pt regardless of the team, unit ,er, u may even go see interesting cases even in icu pending on the attending/resident. kings u are restricted to only one unit without supv. wyckof gives good LOR, kings give ross stud 1 paragraph LOR. kings lock u up in a room, off the unit when they are expecting accreditation inspectors threaten to fail u if u come to the unit. wycok does not have a problem with students presence b/c they do not have anything to hide(no shady business). wyckof has a very experienced/practical md (DR SHEKAI) that meet with med students 1-2x/wk to actually teach u how to effectively do h/ps, and address practical medicine issues. u are allowed to ask any question. also at wyckof u have im lectures 12-1p m-f. not at kings, wyckof organizes seminars for our students on practical guide to getting into residency. they invite grads from ross who recently gained residency spots. kings who cares about u.
if u are in miami or dominica research and think b/4 coming. ask ross to give u stat of im rotation failures ( u will find its only kings) :lol: :lol: i have been all over.
4th yr student

Edited by moderator for innapropriate content.

[tiptop]

Agree with above post, I did IM at Wyckoff and did 4 weeks sub-I at King County. I know few people at King County failed step 2 because they are really good in putting IV, ABG however because they did not have any teaching time, so they did not prepare well for board exam. I also did 4 weeks adult ER rotation at Wyckoff, I learned a lot of procedures there plus it's exciting because of the acute situation. In King county, there are quite a few chronic patients with hiv. You are forced to do blood work on them.

If you want teaching time and hands on, I recommend Wycoff IM and 4 Weeks of Adult ER (also very tiring but it's only for four weeks)!! ER is also very high yield on step 2.

[jaga]

i worked as a PA for 10 yrs b/4 going to med school. I did my im rotation at kings, i totally agree with above comment. Its a chaos. I have worked with a ton of med students and attendings prior to med sch. There is no other program that rob the students as kings. You do not learn. You may think are learning hands on skill, but you are actually leaning the incorrect ways of performing these skills.i herad somebody got stuck with a needle while drawing blood from hiv pt but could not report it b/c they will fail you for incompetence. If i knew what i know now i would not have gone to kings. i suggest ross should reveiw and stop this program. I know a few folks from my group that failed the rotation, they were never absent, they worked hard they were not told they were failing. I am almost done with all my rotations, i have not met any other student from any other program that failed core rotation. With perfect attendance you should be guarranteed a pass but not kings. I feel for those students because most imgs apply for im residency and kings can ruin your prospect, You don't want to pay kings $10,000 to damage your prospect when you can go to any other program to do im.
DON'T GO THERE, TELL ROSS, YOU DO NOT WANT KINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2ndyear]

You can refuse King's County IM rotation. When they send you a clinical assigment sheet, you can always check the Refused box and ask them for a reassignment. Keep in mind that this may affect your financial aid status and match date.

Yes, as FRNC kindly pointed out, King's County is a Green Brook hospital under SUNY Medical Center.

[jim]

am unaware of the sdituation about kings, but as it seems people dont understand the "green book" I will do my once evry 2 months lecture on use of the green book. it is actually rare to find hospitals listed in the green book by name. usually they are listed by affiliation or by corporate name. just because you dont see the hospitals actual name, doesnt mean its not ACGME. you have to actually look at every listing for a city, and read the small print to find the names of the hospitals. In chicago, st anthonys is a ross hospital. but is not listed by name. it is listed by the name "catholic health partners"...just an example.

[Spanky]

I agree that you should stay away from King's County. The attending reese is the most unprofessional physician I have ever met. In fact, I believe he will be in real hot water in the near future for some of his antics. An example: in the first week he makes an announcement to all the new students that if anyone makes a mistake that gets him into legal trouble he will HUNT DOWN AND KILL ALL YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS AND THEN KILL YOU. I am not jokeing, ask anyone who has rotated there. He yells at, humiliates and mocks the students to their face. Girls run away in tears. he makes fun of other doctors on the floor, nurses, hell even the social worker, calling them names. If you speak with an accent he will mock the way you talk when he yells at you. He enjoys getting an inch away from your face while he verbally attacks you, often for no good reason. I once heard him command a male student to scream like a girl. This guy is sick. These sound like outrageous accusations but I swear to you they are true. Somebody needs to get this guy fired, the problem is nobody will sacrifice an F to do it.

The other problem is that the students in the 3rd month of the rotation are put in charge and they often get on a power trip, ordering the newer students around. These will be people from your own class that may know less about medicine than you, got lower board scores, yet boss you around like they have a world of experience which is annoying.

The other comments are true too. There is no real teaching, just a few wasted lectures. There is tons of scut, which wouldnt be so bad if the students were taught something about medical conditions. The upside is that you have real responsibility for your patients. Overall I would stay away.

[jim]

though this guy ****** sound a little overboard, the fact of the matter si that you will find MANY malignant personalitys who will enjoy making your life miserable in the wolrd of medicine. not to say that its right, but just to say dont take it personal, this guy definetly wont be the last to treat you like this on your road to becoming a doc.

Edited for use of proper name.

[daka8899]

I did my IM rotation at kings. i absolutely agree, DO NOT ROTATE THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish i was told prior. i practically saw some students cry/weep. they threaten and abuse students, very unprofessional staff/language. You have pt responsibility, but its scutwork, b/c they do not have residents on that ward so you act as a technician/mechanic/ secretary for them. you do not learn. they also failed some students from my group despite a perfect attendance, dedication and hardwork. the secretary (shelene) makes it clear that if you rent accommodation through her you should pass. she does some real estate. i am glad this forum is alerting incoming students. AVOID KINGSSS FOR IM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,

[olandj]

I rotated at Kings for IM, Psych, and ER back in 1999. Had a great experience on all three, although that was a function of what I tried to do on the rotations, not necessarily what was provided. The lack of resident supervision on the IM rotation definitely had its positives and negatives. When I was there, I used to go on rounds in the ICU and attended lectures on the downstate side of the street. At that point, I was probably breaking some kind of rule, but I kept my mouth shut, sat in the back, and learned. The Downstate students didn't give me any problems because I didn't get in their way. I had to do all of this while also taking care of everything on the floor. It taught me how to become organzied and efficient...use the stairs, only go to radiology once, etc.

In regards to Dr. ***** , he was definitely a character back then. I'm sad to hear that he has that effect on students now. I know when I was a resident and supervising medical students from Ross, I was hard on them...but, I don't think I ever made anyone cry. At least back when I was a student, Dr. ****** had a strong desire to make people into better doctors. I hope that hasn't changed.

In regards to malignant rotations...hard work, responsibility, and accountability are good things to practice as a stduent. One person's malignant rotation is another's favorite. Best example, my wife at Brookdale for peds. The rotation had a horrible reputation. She came in and told them she was going to be a pediatrician, worked hard, showed up early, stayed late, and she had a great experience.

-Dr. Oland

Edited by moderator for use of proper name.

[daka8899]

dr oland you rotated there in 1999. i rotated there a few months ago. when i rotated there the daily schedule was officially 7am -730pm, but we got there 6am to see the pts and some students don't leave until 8,9, 10 or somex 11pm. and be back 6-7am. we did not have the pleasure to leave the unit except for lunch if you are lucky. :roll: in med are receptive to constructive criticism in professinal manner. eg asking a male student to walk like a female or asking a student with accent not to ever speak in his preseence because "you do not speak english clearly, how many times have u attempted step 1, do you ever hope to pass???". the same student did excellent on step 1(first attempt) prior to coming to kings.
I WOULD NOT GO TO KINGS IF I HAVE TO DO IT OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MDJack]

Greetings all. Hi, My name is Jack, a King's County survivor. I would like to welcome u all to the support group! All kidding aside, I rotated there in 2000. Is Dr. ****** still there? I heard he got fired/left, etc.. Like some of you said, some will like it b/c of learning to place IV, doing venipuncture, ABG's, blood cultures, etc.. (things that will come in handy as a resident). Some will hate it b/c no teaching, no guidance, bad faculty, unprofessional staff members ranging from RN techs thru Attendings (why should the RN techs treat you any different than the Attendings?) Dr ******* is unprofessional and tries to push his limits, but he knows with whom and when he can do that. If you act professional with him and let him know there is a limit to your tolerance, he would lessen his childishness. Don't expect him to stop, however. My experience with the rotation: Pros: 1) learned many procedures that would otherwise required an ED rotation, ie. venipunture, IV placement, G-tube insertion/withdrawal in sterile fashion, blood cultures, etc. 2) respected other allied health jobs (you can't appreciate a secretary/porter/tech until you did their jobs) 3) perfected my tolerance skill, ie. tolerated all level of staff (believe it or not, some people will need this skill every now and then) 4) Appreciated the difference between professionalism vs not. Cons: 1) scut work w/ no teaching unless you have time btwn the 4 hrs round & scut work and find a lecture to sit in 2) Long work hours 7AM - whenever (just like some residency programs! Thank goodness for new 100 hrs/wk rule) 3) Bad staff b/c everyone is overworked 4) Contrary to popular beliefs, one can't managed a patient adequately by doing only IV's, blood cultures, venipunctures, etc. You must know why it is being done and when to do it, etc. Well, that's my take. One man's trask is another's treasure: some may like this rotation, others will not.

Edited by moderator for use of proper name.

[MitchDC]

Thank you all for your input on this rotation. According to the ValueMD policies, I had to edit the proper name used but have left the content of the messages the same. Please refrain from using the name of another without their permission.

Thank you!

MitchDC

[Skip Intro]

am unaware of the sdituation about kings, but as it seems people dont understand the "green book" I will do my once evry 2 months lecture on use of the green book. it is actually rare to find hospitals listed in the green book by name. usually they are listed by affiliation or by corporate name. just because you dont see the hospitals actual name, doesnt mean its not ACGME. you have to actually look at every listing for a city, and read the small print to find the names of the hospitals. In chicago, st anthonys is a ross hospital. but is not listed by name. it is listed by the name "catholic health partners"...just an example.

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/inst/0,1238,350109,00.html

Scroll down to affiliated programs. FREIDA is the first place you should do an "institution" search, if you are concerned about a hospital.

And, Jim, Larkin is still not officially affiliated with University of Miami as a teaching institution - I don't care what you or anyone else says.

-Skip

[Skip Intro]

In fact, go to University of Miami's website search engine and enter "Larkin" and see what comes up:

http://search.med.miami.edu/query.html?qt=&submit=Go

-Skip

[Skip Intro]

Go to Larkin's website and do a search:

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=50106075&pageid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=University

You get two results concerning University of Miami. First, you get some mention of a vague affiliation on their Podiatry residency page that mentions the University of Miami Medical School "Department" (as well as Ross). In the second link, you get some mention of a service offered through the "Mammography University of Miami Orthopedic Clinic".

:?:

I believe that maybe they let podiatry residents rotate through University of Miami as an externship, but this doesn't create a teaching affiliation at Larkin. Second, their patients probably have some access to U of M services that they don't offer at Larkin. Again, this does not create a formal teaching affiliation.

To rehash the old argument that you alluded to, I wouldn't do my FP core at Larkin if I was an up-and-coming clinical student who just left the island, no matter what ******* **********(who should have remained fired a couple of years ago when he was fired by the school, but somehow got his job back) tells you.

-Skip

Edited by moderator for use of proper names. *** Identifies edited text.

[Skip Intro]

This pretty much tells you all you need to know about Larkin...

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/fls/Larkin.html

-Skip

[MitchDC]

For those of you who didn't see it a few weeks ago, here is an update on the Larkin Community Hospital lawsuit:

Larkin Hospital Hospital Wins Landmark Case

Miami, FL, July 25, 2004—In an unprecedented legal victory over the Agency For Health Care Administration (AHCA), Larkin Community Hospital made history by winning an injunction against the Agency. The Department of Justice (DOJ) filed civil charges against Larkin Community Hospital on 6/29/04 claiming that the Hospital and its Executives were engaged in fraudulent practices under the False Claims Act from 1997-1999, AHCA subsequently, withheld Medicaid payments to the facility. AHCA provided the Department of Justice with what they termed to be “Reliable evidence” of unnecessary medical care provided at Larkin Community Hospital from 1997-1999. These allegations were the basis of a Federal Lawsuit against the Hospital which made headlines approximately two weeks ago.

Larkin Community Hospital, in turn, filed suit against AHCA citing lack of credible evidence of fraud. The Federal Investigation is based upon evidence supplied by AHCA that such credible evidence exists. However, during a four hour civil hearing on July 16, 2004, before Circuit Judge Jonathan E Sjostrom, AHCA was unable to produce “reliable evidence” to support the allegations.

The following is a brief excerpt of the proceedings:

THE JUDGE: Okay. What did the records that you sent -- that AHCA sent, what did they show?

MR. STIVERS (AHCA’S BUREAU CHIEF): Medical records.

THE JUDGE: Well, I know, but what did they show that you would contend is reliable evidence that circumstances giving rise allegations of fraud, willful misrepresentation or abuse, what did those medical records show that satisfies the 24 (a) standard?

MR. STIVERS (AHCA’S BUREAU CHIEF): (No response.)

THE JUDGE: Do you understand what I'm asking you?

MR. STIVERS (AHCA’S BUREAU CHIEF): I'm not sure I can get where I am to where you want me to be.

THE JUDGE: I just want to know what the 24 (a) reliable evidence is, that's it.

MR. NAM (AHCA’S ATTORNEY): MS. ******* (AHCA’s ASSISTANT BUREAU CHIEF) might know. I don't know, but somebody does.

MS. ******* (AHCA’S ASSISTANT BUREAU CHIEF): Okay. The reliable evidence…….Judge, I think -- I'm not sure…. that I would particularly feel competent to do that, simply because clinically I'm not sure I could explain it to you. I don't have those records and have not reviewed those records…

But I do know I was the one that signed that referral.

Quoting the legal definition of fraud, Honorable Judge Jonathan E. Sjostrom concluded that the State had produced no reliable evidence to support their allegations and issued an injunction for the release of Medicaid monies owed to the Hospital.

Larkin Community Hospital further established that significant irreparable harm would be caused to community and charitable organizations if such funds were withheld. Larkin Community Hospital participates in numerous community outreach programs which benefit the underserved and uninsured population of Miami-Dade County.

The issue of community health was categorically dismissed by State Attorney, Mr. David W. Nam stating that, “it's not Medicaid's job to take care of, I mean, you know, whatever the societal ills may be that result from a lack of insurance coverage for the population.” The judge, however, did not agree, stating that, “the balance of harm in the public interest tips, in my view, heavily in favor of the continuing practice of medicine by these people and they have shown what they need to show, the balance of harm tips in their favor.”

Larkin Community Hospital, a 130 bed medical/surgical/psychiatric hospital, was acquired by Dr. Jack Michel in January, 1998. Since then its rating by the Joint Commission on Accreditation for Healthcare Organizations has consistently been one of the highest in Miami-Dade, receiving 97% and 98% scores for the past six years. As one of the handful of physician owned and operated hospital, Larkin provides prompt medical attention uniquely reflective of its community orientation.

[Skip Intro]

For those of you who didn't see it a few weeks ago, here is an update on the Larkin Community Hospital lawsuit...

Mitch,

I sent you a lenghty PM on this. While it looks official, I believe this post to be a hoax. I'd invite anyone - and will stand corrected, if proven so - to find this "update" anywhere on the Internet. Also, it is highly unlikely that a suit filed only at the end of June would be summarily dismissed at the end of July (e.g., it can take months to do discovery, take depositions, file motions and have them reviewed by the court, etc.), and especially on the sophomoric grounds laid out in this "update". The DOJ just doesn't screw around and enter lawsuits against hospitals on a meritless basis, and then show-up and look like a bunch of keystone-cops during a hearing.

I think this is B.S. The author of it has one post and his name is "jmichel", coincidentally very similar to the name of the CEO of Larkin named in the lawsuit. If I'm wrong, again, I'll eat my words.

-Skip

[MitchDC]

Skip,

I'm not here to defend Larkin or anybody else. I just re-posted what was already posted here to make sure that people reading your post had more of the story. Whether you believe what another user posted or not is not my concern. The Larkin case was dismissed on insufficient evidence. You can spend your time doing extra research if it really matters to you.

As another matter of "bunk" busting - another piece of your post was false. The University did not fire anybody in Miami. Larkin dismissed him from his duty because he was supporting the Ross students involved in that whole post-9/11 pseudo-hoax. Instead of being applauded for supporting Ross students, it appears as though you are trying to blame him for doing so. If you want more info on that topic, you may read the article in the Miami Herald to get your facts straight: "Hospital removes MD who tried to place Muslim students".

MitchDC

A REMINDER TO ALL USERS: The use of personal names without the permission of that person is not allowed on the forum. Personal attacks, insults, or other defamatory comments will also not be tolerated.

[Skip Intro]

As another matter of "bunk" busting - another piece of your post was false. The University did not fire anybody in Miami. Larkin dismissed him from his duty because he was supporting the Ross students involved in that whole post-9/11 pseudo-hoax. Instead of being applauded for supporting Ross students, it appears as though you are trying to blame him for doing so. If you want more info on that topic, you may read the article in the Miami Herald to get your facts straight: "Hospital removes MD who tried to place Muslim students".

This is simply not factually correct. Obviously I have stepped on your toes, Mitch. And, I'm going to leave others to decide who's more likely right here. Don't get me wrong; I'm an active Ross student. I want to see the University grow out of it's "Mom and Pop" mentality. A large part of this is a more active commitment to its students to tell the truth and bring things out in the open. Instead we are often stuck with the "mushroom syndrome" (i.e., how one grows mushrooms): being kept in the dark and fed a lot of crap. Personally, I'm sick of it.

-Skip

[helpfulgrad]

I saw that the post is about King's county and somehow ended up with postings about Larkin. Hmmm makes you think? Someone trying to change the subject??
Let me say this, I am not a Ross student but I have good friends and colleagues who go/have gone there. I feel very sorry for the Ross students who rotate at King's county. It is in NO WAY appropriate for a 3rd yr medical student and frankly I'm surprised your administration has continued its affiliation.
In 3rd year of med school you should be clerking patients and following them through the admission to learn clinically. However, this should not be at the expense of didactic learning. You should have enough time to READ and reinforce what you see clinically. It's the only way you'll really learn. The best IM rotation is the one that gives you a 50-50 between the books and the patients and I try my best to do that with the students I supervise. I give them solid medicine cases (COPD, PE, CHF etc etc) and no more than 2 patients at any given time. This is the way it should be in 3rd yr. I have personally gone to the ward where Ross students rotate as patients are frequently transferred from that service to a REAL medical service (ours)when the crap hits the fan. The students are absolutely LOST. They have no clue what they're doing or why and I give them no blame for this.
King's county is way too busy for a 3rd yr student. It's great for a 4th yr student doing a subI in medicine but not at all appropriate for 3rd years.
Whenever I go over to the A ward I try to teach the students a bit before their patient is transferred (usually to ICU) but it's tough. PA's should NEVER be supervising/teaching medical students...NEVER period!!
The attendings there are incompetent at best and thats all I can say about them.....

sorry guys... but whoever advocates for students at your institution should tell the school to NOT place 3rd yr students there...but it's a good place for a 4th yr subI rotation.......

later...
HG

[Skip Intro]

I saw that the post is about King's county and somehow ended up with postings about Larkin. Hmmm makes you think? Someone trying to change the subject??

No, not really. It was more to illustrate, in response to something Jim alluded to, how Ross doesn't always give its students all the information they need to make an informed decision.

Thanks for your great post, by the way. I didn't rotate at King's, but that pretty much sums up what I've heard from those who did.

And, to "flip the script", I'd give Ross the following grades on how they are currently running things that are the most important to students:

Pre-Clinical Sciences (i.e. Dominica): B
AICM (i.e., Miami): D-
Clinical Sciences (i.e., U.S. Clerkships): C-
Financial Aid Department: C

Overall, this rounds out to a solid "C-". So, as you can see, they'd have to take the "Comp". :lol:

-Skip

[jmichel]

There has been some recent confusion regarding this issue.
Larkin is affiliated with the Department of Family practice of the University of Miami School of medicine, and has been for several years.
Anyone seeking copies of the agreement can obtain it from Ross University.
Question: Any feedback on the 3rd year Family Practice Clerkship at Larkin? we are interested in obtaining some input in the hopes of improving the experience.

[Skip Intro]

As some of you know, I find very questionable some of the practices of this forum (as further evidenced by this latest post) and, particularly, its moderators, and have decided that this is no longer the place I choose to participate. However, someone tipped me that this message was posted here, so I have decided to return briefly only to respond to this latest message by “jmichel”…

Your conclusions about what the DOJ does or doesn't do are erroneous. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the matter prior to expressing your biased conclusions. You are studying to be a Doctor, not to be an ignorant columnist. The next time you express an opinion about something, be sure to check your facts.

The facts as you see them are hard to find, jmichel, and are not born out by anything on the Internet, the DOJ website, any of the news outlets in Miami (or elsewhere), or even Larkin's website - be they a mock "pseudo-press release" or anything else that the people named in this lawsuit have otherwise alledged, true or untrue.

Furthermore, based on the transcript you've presented here, I want to know just what the heck you are talking about anyway? Did you not think that at least one of us was going to read the whole thing through or did you figure that, since we're just a bunch of stupid Ross students, no one was going to comprehend it if we did?

This transcript you posted here only concerns your filing of an emergency injunction, and has the earmarks of a defendant who is not fully prepared to argue against it due to the hasty nature of your legal team throwing it together (big deal!). More importantly, it has absolutely nothing to do with dismissing the allegations or dropping the civil fraud lawsuit against you laid out in the the previous link! The DOJ, if the charges were dropped and your injunction successful (not that we can tell from the truncated version you provide here), would report such on their website and most likely amend the link that continues to report the civil suit against you.

No. What we actually have here is only your lawyer arguing that you were not given due process before they suspended payments. Sure, there is a bit of confusion and miscommunication about who filed what when and why and what triggered the investigation in the first place and which dates were involved, but big deal. But, don't you worry. That stuff will get sorted out later when they take you to court, for certain. This is, by no means, a victory for you.

Furthermore, in what you've provided here on page 25, line 25, and page 26, lines 1-8, after your lawyer rambles on begging for this injunction (calling the way they filed the lawsuit against you “malicious” and a “draconian sanction”) so you don't go immediately bankrupt while the larger matter is investigated and ultimately adjudicated, the judge flatly asks the representative for AHCA about the agency’s actions in bringing civil fraud charges against you. Their representative says the following:

MR. NAM: Your Honor, the department takes the position that the named physicians and entities have been investigated by the department and that those investigations have culminated in the prior actions [i.e. the civil fraud charges filed against the Michel brothers].

THE JUDGE: Investigated by AHCA?

MR. NAM: That's correct. And I have documentation that supports those contentions, I'm not just making those [up].

That’s all that matters. This is their case. And, you have not yet had your real day in court where you’re going to have to answer to these fraud allegations.

In other words...

THIS POST ANSWERS NOTHING TO THE DISPOSITION OF THE CIVIL FRAUD CHARGES AGAINST YOU AND YOUR BROTHER!

Again, to quote from the DOJ website: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/fls/Larkin.html

Based on the allegations of the Complaint, in 1997, when Larkin was owned by Dr. Desnick, Larkin paid Jack Michel and Oracle approximately $70,000 per month in kickbacks, which were disguised as payments for operating the Larkin Emergency Room, Radiology Department, and House Call Program. In return for these payments, Jack and George Michel admitted approximately 50% of the patients to Larkin in 1997, and many of these admissions were medically unnecessary. Additionally, Larkin paid kickbacks to other doctors for their admissions to Larkin that were disguised as Medical Directorship salaries. These doctors admitted approximately 25% of the patients to Larkin in 1997, and many of these admissions were medically unnecessary. Many of these patients were residents of ALFs with whom Jack Michel had long-term relationships, including Oceanside Extended Care, owned by the Esformes.

By the way, don’t you have better things to do right now than post some irrelevant document, which ultimately proves nothing, on some Internet forum?

And, yes, I will be a doctor very soon. An honest, hardworking one who doesn’t engage in questionable billing practices, to be sure. So, why don’t I worry about me, and you worry about you, okay?

Finally...

Larkin is affiliated with the Department of Family practice of the University of Miami School of medicine, and has been for several years.
Anyone seeking copies of the agreement can obtain it from Ross University.

Since Larkin is “affiliated”, why don’t you provide us with a contact name in the Family Practice office at University of Miami who'll be able to provide us a copy of this agreement instead? I, for one, would be very interested to see it. Or, since you seem willing to post things on this forum, why not scan it in and post it here yourself? Funny, though, that Larkin is still nowhere to be found mentioned here:

http://familymedicine.med.miami.edu/services.asp

(Must be a really tight affiliation. :roll: )

In the meantime, good day. And, again, farewell all.

-Skip

[Spanky]

Well actually Skip I hold in my hand a copy of the actual contract between Larkin and UM dated Jan 13, 2000, signed by the Associate VP for Business Services at UM, the CEO of Larkin and the chairman of FP at Larkin. I received this from Ross's attorney as part of a thick packet to be presented to US immigration for the purposes of securing a visa to do clinicals in the US (Ross charged me a hefty legal fee too). I have no facilities to scan it to you. If you have a specific question about its contents, I will look it up and transcribe the corresponding section here.

[jmichel]

Skip, You certainly have a lot of time in your hands. I will not continue to reply to your absurd conclusions, it is obvious that you have a problem with reading comprehension.

Perhaps you should have invested it better preparing for the MCAT's and getting good grades so you didn't have to be so bitter about having to attend a foreign medical school.
Thank God the rest of the Ross Students are nicer and definitely smarter than you.

Having had the priviledge to attend a US medical school I can say that I am very impressed at the tenacity and effort of most of the Ross students, but every once in a while you run into somebody like Skip who would do better going into a field that does not require high intellectual function.

Hopefully Skip will pay better attention and invest more time in his school work so he won't actually graduate as a doctor (and alas actually get a license to practice medicine)and become another dangerous doctor.

[jim]

I have not read much of this thread, and must admit, I have no clue, nor do i really care to know what larkin has to do with kings county. I must admit though, I feel that I am highly suspect that this is the real dr michel. I havemet the man, and he doesnt seem the type for personal attacks such as this. Ialso was under the impression that he attended medical school in colombia, and not in the US, though I could be wrong on that one. But I do have a test. going back a few years, a significant event occured in the life of Dr michel. In january (or early febr) of 2001, Dr michel spent alot of time in a certain dept of larkin hospital, including spending nights there. If dr michel can tell us what department that was( no need to say why, I know the reason, and will not divulge it ), then I will attest to the fact that this must truely be dr michel.

[crunchyfrog]

HAhahhahaa. just read through all this and I think Dr. Jack dost protest too much! Puh-lease, everyone knows that Larkin crew are a bunch of crooks!

[Dru]

This whole thread is so old it is moldy. I am locking it for archived information.