Setting up your own clinicals

[myrandom2003]

just wondering, i recently took my step and passed :lol: ..now its time for clinicals...i called the jersey office and they said it would take a couple of weeks to set up a schedule for me...so i went on the acgme.org website and emailed a few places, and now just waiting for them to return my emails...so just wondering has anyone set up any rotations on their own?...if so, where? any help u can provide would be appreciated

[singer]

Myrandom2003:

It is against Ross policy to set up clinicals in Ross affiliated hospitals. Is that what you are doing?

[Chianti]

If you emailed Ross' affiliated hospitals, that is a big no-no.

If you emailed non-affiliated teaching hospitals, you can set up your own rotations, but keep in mind that many states have strict licensure laws when it comes to clinicals. For example, many states state that you can do only 12 weeks of clinicals in hospitals not affiliated with your med school. For example, if somehow you had a lot of pull at Harvard and got to do your entire 3rd-year at Harvard, NY WOULD NOT license you since Harvard is not an official Ross affiliate. Just something to keep in mind.

[Cuando2]

If you emailed Ross' affiliated hospitals, that is a big no-no.

If you emailed non-affiliated teaching hospitals, you can set up your own rotations, but keep in mind that many states have strict licensure laws when it comes to clinicals. For example, many states state that you can do only 12 weeks of clinicals in hospitals not affiliated with your med school. For example, if somehow you had a lot of pull at Harvard and got to do your entire 3rd-year at Harvard, NY WOULD NOT license you since Harvard is not an official Ross affiliate. Just something to keep in mind.

I really dont understand what you are saying? Why would NY (why did you pick NY of all states?) not license you if you did one year of clinicals at Harvard? Are you saying that a harvard student doint clinicals at a harvard affiliated hospital in his/her third year will also be denied NY licensure? I really dont understand...please explain further.

[olandj]

Cuando,

For more details, check out http://www.fsmb.org/

Every state has there own peculiar rules regarding medical licensure...and a common one has to do with where you did your clinical rotations. A number of the states require you to do a mandatory amount of clinical rotations within your own medical school or its affiliates. So, to use your example, a student from Harvard who spent more than 12 weeks in a non-Harvard affiliate hospital would have a difficult time getting a license. That being said, Harvard would never let one of their students rotate in a non-affiliate without making a special arrangement. If a student wants to do an unusual elective at Harvard, I'm sure that the school sets it up to make it more "official." Back in my time, Ross would occasionally help students set up new Ross sites, thus making a set-up rotation an "official" one. It involves the hospital/school having a contract with Ross and it takes a long time.

A number of states have specific requirements regarding the presence of an ACGME approved residency in the field of medicine in which you rotated at that hospital. The purpose of this is to ensure that the medical student is in a teaching environment. For instance, California is ok with rotations as long as there is a family practice residency at the hospital, becuase they assume that means that residents are getting training in all of the departments.

Before you start trying to set up your own rotations...make sure you do your due diligence and know what the rules are....

-Jordan Oland, MD
Ross '00

[myrandom2003]

when i said setting up ur own rotations, i ment going outside of the ross affiliates...like there is one hospital i asked to do an internal medicine rotation for 12 weeks...they told me i need to fax in a cv and step one score and they would let me know...they are acgme accredited for im residency...thats what i meant by setting up ur own rotation...and was wondering if anyone else has done that...

and as far as that state medical board thing...i went on the fsmb website but didnt find anywhere saying if you do clinicals outside of ur affiliates, you wouldnt be lisenced in that state...could someone tell me where on that website i should look...thanks for the help

[Chianti]

Myrandom2003-

Many states have this 12-week law. You need to read every single line of a particular state's licensing laws to make sure you're ok, but as a general guideline, IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA to go outside Ross' affiliates unless you are doing a couple of 4th-year visiting electives, say somewhere where you want to do a residency. I would strongly advise going outside Ross for ANY CORES, since many states also have laws stating that ALL CORES must be done at affiliated hospitals and the 12-weeks law typically only applies to electives. For instance, if you do complete IM at a non-Ross affiliate and then do a 1-month elective at Harvard during your 4th-year, Pennsylvania, NY and NJ (just the ones I know off the type of my head) will never license you. Licensing laws are strict and it is a good idea to limit yourself to only 12 weeks of 4th-year electives OUTSIDE of Ross affiliated hospitals. You don't want to complete your residency and then realize you can't be licensed in a state where you want to live.

FYI, this 12-weeks law applies to US grads as well. No US med school will let their students do more than 12-weeks of 4th-year electives. SGU is very strict about this as well. You are running a huge risk if you go outside of 12 weeks at non-Ross affiliates.

[myrandom2003]

see its not that i dont believe u guys when u advise me to not go outside of Ross, but here is why i am skeptical...we all know ross is a rumor mill so i just want to read it someone other than a student forum...no one in ross's clinical department has mentioned this 12 week thing rule thing, they just mentioned that i need to make sure it is acgme certified....so just point me to any state medical boards website where i can read this for myself...thanks for the help and advice though, until now, i have never heard of this rule..."now i know, and knowing is half the battle.." - g.i.joe

[Chianti]

Myrandom-

Trust me on this, its not a rumor. The best thing to do is to call up state licensing boards in states you want to practice in and get the info straight from the horse's mouth.......or do the smart thing and limit yourself to only 12 weeks of 4th-year electives outside of Ross affiliates. Trust me, there is a reason that US schools and SGU don't allow their students to violate the 12-week, 4th-year elective rule.

BTW, Pennsylvania, New York and Jersey have this law for sure and I'd bet $100 that Cali and Texas do as well.

[Chianti]

Also, I just got my NY Clincal Rotation Eligibility Letter the other day. The letter states that according to state law as a Ross student I can only do clinical rotations at Ross' formally, affiliated hospitals- and then the letter states the hospitals and what cities they are in. The only exception is that 12-weeks of electives can be done outside the Ross system of affiliates. When you apply for licensure in NY, the state will verify your rotations- and if you're over the 12-week limit- you will be denied a license.

Myrandom, a good idea for you is to pose this question on the SGU forum- the moderators there know a great deal about this and they'll be able to guide you in the right direction.

And also, I'd take EVERYTHING that the Ross clinical advisors tell you what a grain of salt. Not anything derogatory towards them, but they are certainly not experts and you don't want to risk your career (licensure) on what a clinical advisor has "heard".

[myrandom2003]

just thought i would put this up here...i got it from the new york medical board website http://www.op.nysed.gov/medlic.htm

"Education Requirements

To satisfy the education requirements for licensure as a physician, you must present evidence of both A and B below.

1. Preprofessional Education:

Satisfactory completion of 60 semester hours of college study from a New York State registered program or the equivalent as determined by the New York State Education Department.
2. Professional Education:

1. Graduates of Registered or Accredited Medical Programs

Satisfactory completion of a medical program registered by the New York State Education Department as licensure-qualifying* or accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) or the American Osteopathic Association (AOA) and have received the degree of Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathy, or the equivalent.
*Does not include schools outside the U.S. that have received Department approval solely to contract for medical clinical experiences (clerkships) in New York State.


2. Graduates of Non-accredited Medical Programs

Satisfactory completion of the following:
* A curriculum of not less than 32 months (4 academic years) in a medical program recognized as an acceptable educational program for physicians by the appropriate civil authorities of the country in which the school is located and receipt of the degree of Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathy, or the equivalent as determined by the Department. You must complete the final year of medical education at the school that awarded you the degree.
* A satisfactory proficiency examination. Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) certification will satisfy this requirement.

"Fifth Pathway" Applicants

Applicants wishing to qualify under the provisions of section 6528 of the Education Law must complete an LCME-accredited "Fifth Pathway" program. The Education Law is accessible here.
Clinical Clerkships

Your professional education must include supervised clinical clerkships (clinical rotations) as an integral part of the clinical component of your medical education program, that take place in a general hospital or another acceptable health care facility. Clinical clerkships must be performed in accordance with the laws and regulations of the jurisdiction in which they take place.

If you graduated from a non-LCME-accredited medical school located in one country but completed one or more clinical clerkships in a different country, those clerkships must be certified (Form 2CC). This information is not collected by the Federation Credentials Verification Service (FCVS). For each hospital in which you have completed such a clerkship, the Director of Medical Education or Department Chair must certify your completion of the clerkships."

I didn't see anywhere where it said anything about doing my third year at other hospitals...i realize it says you have to do your final year at ur medical school...is that what this whole 12 week rule is referring to? because i was only wondering about my third year core clerkships...also the clinical advisor told me that the clinical dean has to approve the rotation any rotation done outside of ross, so if Dr. Perri does approve it, would that mean that the school and the hospital would have some kind of affiliation going, considering they are paying the hospital?

i hope u aren't getting annoyed with me, i just want to be absolutely sure because i really dont want to do rotations in the hospitals ross has in ny...and i am sure there are other students who want to do rotations outside of ross, so this will help them too

[olandj]

The basis for the 12 week rule in most states has to do with the rule that your education should be a reasonable substitute for the training of their own in-state school. The LCME has very strict rules about curriculum requirements for the US schools and as a result, the US schools limit their students to only doing outside electives for 12 weeks in their 4th year. Recognize that some schools have outside programs that are longer than 12 weeks, but in those instances the school has done the work to fully certify the content of the elective. The best references on this are the course handbooks of the individual medical schools. The funny thing about the state medical boards is that they would have significantly less priblems certfyng Ross students education if we all did our clinical rotations in Dominica :)

Most of the time, these issues never come up, but you'd hate for them to become an issue. If you do a core rotation that you set up, how are you going to prove that the rotation followed the exact course guidelines established by Ross? You are getting a degree from Ross. The state board is going to want to make sure that the school which conferred the degree was the one organizing your education.

-Jordan Oland, MD

[myrandom2003]

That does make sense...thanks for all your help Chianti and Dr. Oland.

[Chianti]

Don't worry, you're not being annoying, these are great questions you are posing....I was in your shoes and I did my homework not too long ago.

Ross has formal affiliations (contracts) with its hospitals. If Dr. Perri oks a rotation, it does not mean there is an affiliation with that hospital.

Call up the NY state medical board and ask about the 12-week rule. They will verify it.

[myrandom2003]

has anyone set up their own rotation outside of the ross affiliates and have a problem with this before? I know ia m not the only one who has attempted to set up my own third year rotations...has the school informed anyone of this 12 week thing...u'd think they should right...

i remember Dr. Perri coming to our fourth sem class and when someone asked about setting up their own rotations, Dr. Perri was like "if you want to, we encourage you too, because if you do a good job it may mean another future affiliation for ross"(maybe those weren't the exact words but they are very similar)...

[myrandom2003]

apparently that 12 week rule applies to only your fourth year, u are allowed up to 12 weeks of electives (basically three elective rotations since they are usually 4 weeks each) at hospitals outside the schools affiliated hospitals.

[wcb22]

can anyone think of any other states (besides the aforementioned CA, TX, NY, NJ), where this clinical req't is intact?

[myrandom2003]

i think pensylvania was also mentioned earlier in this post

[Chianti]

"apparently that 12 week rule applies to only your fourth year, u are allowed up to 12 weeks of electives (basically three elective rotations since they are usually 4 weeks each) at hospitals outside the schools affiliated hospitals."

The 12-week rule applies to 4th-year because every state licensing board ASSUMES you have done your 3rd-year at hospitals affiliated with your med school. You are running a HUGE risk if you do any cores outside of Ross's system of affiliates. The state you want to practice in might not check when you apply for licensure....then again, if they do check (like most of the stricter states do) you're going to be screwed bigtime.

[myrandom2003]

i took chianti's advice (by the way, chianti is my fav wine)i asked the executive secretary on ny state med board...what he said was (only pertaining to the state of NY), if you do more than 12 weeks of rotations in non affiliated hospitals that are in the state of ny, then you "might" (he said in the end its the state's discretion to grant u licensure or not which is what he meant by "might") run into problems in the future for licensure...BUT if the non affiliated hospitals are outside the state of new york, then u can do as many as you want with no problems...provided they are acgme certified blah blah blah...and this is for licensure after residency...he then also went on to say that if you get licensed in one state, and then move to another state, they "usually" will grant you a license....but didnt say NY specifically will do that and i didnt think to ask him to elaborate on that...(but i am thinking that is how ross grads have been able to get licensure in texas cause i see some alumni practicing there from the ross alumni thing on their website...)...After all this, i am going to take Chianti's advice and do the rest of my rotations with in the ross affiliates, but since my IM rotation has already been scheduledi guess i'll have to chance it with that rotation, but the rest of them i will keep affiliated with ross ( i dont want to practice in NY anyway, i want to stay in either Ohio, Michigan, or Illinois..)...

Hey chianti..thanks for all the advice and help...anyways what hospitals are u doing ur rotations at anyway, and do you have any recommendations?

[Chianti]

Myrandom2003-

Good decision on your part. Keep in mind that state licensing boards change their laws all the time and thus you want to play it safe.

I'm at Wycoff Heights in Brooklyn right now. A really nice hospital (I was very surprised at this). It is a Cornell affiliate and everything is high-tech and its a very clean place to work, considering that its in the middle of the ghetto (very safe during the day- I wouldn't step outside at night though).

[srajanmd]

i can speak from my own experience. Dont trust anything the clincal office says or that idiot ******* ********. They are just overpaid paper pushers. i set up some of my own clinicals b/c Ross was sitting on its *** when it came to my education. You need to ensure that the clinicals are approved by both the school and that they will count toward the state that you plan to practice in. Some rotations, ie DO hospitals are not accepted in california for example. also, some foreign rotations, ie england, can come back and bite you in the *** when you apply for some residency spots. If someone at a superior hospital or university program is willing to support your rotation, then you need to just push the clinical people at Ross. impressing at a hospital you want to do your residency at is a big plus, such as a subinternship. Ross is not here for your education, they are here for your money. YOU need to take hold of any opportunities which arise to get to your ultimate goal.

Sid

****** ******* Name edited out by moderator.

[myrandom2003]

where did u do urs?

[Infiri]

Now you have to do all of the core rotation in a Ross Univ. Hosp.
no more going around looking for other hosp. the school said no more.. only for your electives if you have any question go and call NJ office...
It has to be in a Ross affiliated hosp. for the core rotation.. only the electives you can pick on a unffiliated hosp.