Carribean MD or US DO school?

[Giovanni2004]

Would someone elaborate on pros and cons of Carribean MD schools vs. DO schools in the US?
Thanks

[stephew]

best to do a search on this topic. its one that comes up every now and then and a lot of passionate feelings, mostly misplaced, come out. Bottom line, its about the same in terms of opportunity if youre comparing the better IMG schools with better DO schools; lesser school dont provide as much opportunity for either (in terms of competitive residencies or prestigous programs if that's an issue for you).

[Giovanni2004]

Where would you start to search on this topic?
How would you compare SGU with DO schools in the US in terms of finding residency spots and prestige? In addition, if thinking about going into academics which one would you recommend?

Thanks

[stephew]

Where would you start to search on this topic?
How would you compare SGU with DO schools in the US in terms of finding residency spots and prestige? In addition, if thinking about going into academics which one would you recommend?

Thanks
note under the big valumd logo at the top of the screen (next to FAQ) there is a search function.

In short I think either a better DO school or sgu are equivilent to your needs. I urge you to look at residency placement lists, both type and in terms of the name of the program and see which one fits you best. Either way is a good way to go.
Steph

[SGUfanatic]

well... if both DO and Caribs are a "detour" to your goal, I'd go SGU.

THe reason is that if you're really not digging DOs and can't stand behind their philosophy, it's gonna hurt you forever. Whereas, the Caribs will just be an inconvenience for a few years, and then you'll be an M.D. like everyone else you've looked up to.

What I'm saying is that you'll have to live with the DO behind your name forever, but a Carribean island only lasts a few years.

For the record, I personally dig the DO philosophy and have worked with one for over 1 year now so I'm not talking down. I just wan to fast forward a little for you.

[Kritter]

Hello! This is a very interesting subject for me, and I have often wondered the same thing. I work for a family practice residency program and have heard both sides of the story. The residents tell me this - one main advantage to attending a DO school in the states is that you don't have to mess around with the foreign exams since you've gone to school in the USA and not the Carib. However, some of my DO's have also told me that they've been treated "less than" by some who consider DO's to be less of a doctor than an MD, regardless of where the MD went to school. For what it's worth, I agree with what the others are saying - follow your heart, weigh your own pros and cons and find what will make you happy. Here are a few ideas I've tossed around for myself - DO pros - stay in US, no foreign medical school exams !!!, close to home, can always try to get tuition reimbursement to cover outrageous cost since I'm willing to live in the middle of nowhere, I like the idea of manipulation and natural remedies/body alignment stuff ~ Carib MD pros - get to live on tropical island and escape the madness of my crazy home life for 4 years, cheap (two of my residents are from UNIBE, only $10,000 per year, and now they're at our Mayo clinic residency program - yes, the MAYO clinic! *smile*), have MD (more recognized or not????).

I am struggling with this exact same situation. Drop me a line and let me know what you decide. And for anyone out there looking for a totally kick *ss family practice residency program, give me a shout. I work at the best residency facility in the world! (again in my humble opinion!) *grin* Seriously, I love my job so much and Mercy/Mayo in Des Moines is the best, you should all come here and check it out. Take care and all the best to you and your family, Kathy ksritter01@msn.com

[CptPlanet]

Dear Kathy:

Carib. graduates take the same licensing exams as US medical graduates, that is, steps I, II, and III of the USMLE. The only exam that is not required of American grads that I can think of is the TOEFL, which to those who are native English speakers is, at best, an inconvenience.

So there are no extra 'foreign' exams for Carib graduates.

Hope this clarifies!

[###]

....................

[stephew]

The residents tell me this - one main advantage to attending a DO school in the states is that you don't have to mess around with the foreign exams since you've gone to school in the USA and not the Carib. ... Here are a few ideas I've tossed around for myself - DO pros - stay in US, no foreign medical school exams !!!, ... Carib MD pros - get to live on tropical island and escape the madness of my crazy home life for 4 years, cheap (two of my residents are from UNIBE, only $10,000 per year, and now they're at our Mayo clinic residency program - yes, the MAYO clinic! *smile*),

I think you really have a lot of things to learn about img ed before making your decision. To begin with there are no "foreign medical student" exams these days. We take the same exams period as US students. Also, you dont spend 4 years on a tropical island; its 2 years and while not arduous, you arent on vacation and its not like being on vacation by any stretch. You also need to consider other things first when selecting an offshore school- first, the success of the students getting to and passing the usmle in a timely way (ie with their class). The ability to be licensed in the state you desire and the sort of residencies the grads get. THen things like lifestyle and cost come in. Who cares if you pay very little but can't practice after 4 years? Finally, FP is a field very easy to get no matter what you do in which case you can pick almost any route; that's why you have UNIBE folks at a "Mayo" program. I hazard to guess there are no UNIBE folks in Mayo-Rochester's orthopedics proram. if you decide to do, say, surgery or something really competitiive, picking a schoool based on cost or internet education may be the worst decision you'll ever make.

With regard to DO' if you avoid that path merely because some people will have a poor perception of it, you may as well avoid an offshore school (to say nothing of a net school) as there exists a same bias. Most DOs go that way because they fail to get into a us allo school jus tlike IMGs. PDs know this. And most DOs never practice much manipulation although they do tend to have a superior knowledge in the Musculoskeletal system over MDs in general- specialitist in the field are all on the same page of course.

Again, folks, this topic has been debated a lot and i urge you to do a search on it rather than open new threads.

IN any event, either route is a viable one if you make an informed decision.

[stephew]

Dear Kathy:

Carib. graduates take the same licensing exams as US medical graduates, that is, steps I, II, and III of the USMLE. The only exam that is not required of American grads that I can think of is the TOEFL, which to those who are native English speakers is, at best, an inconvenience.

So there are no extra 'foreign' exams for Carib graduates.

Hope this clarifies!

actually IMGs dont take the TOEFL anymore.

[sam212]

Here's what had been posted on studentdoctor, it is a response from a D.O radiologist who works with M.Ds. I hope this will answer some of your questions.

"""Greetings Dr. O------,
I am a member of SDN, a student doctor forum on the Internet. I have been accepted to Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine and will start there this fall. We are all having a debate about whether or not DOs are thought to be inferior to MDs out in the working world of health care. A poster stumbled onto the UPMC web site and saw that you are the director of the Radiology Residency program at a MD medical school location. This is an ongoing debate at SDN and was wondering if you would be willing to give us some imput about how you feel?


My questions to you if you wouldn't mind answering is do you feel you have a stigma attached to yourself for being an DO verses an MD? And if you had it to do over, would you still have chosen to become a DO?Thank you for your help,



Subject: RE: A question from a student
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:13:08 -0500
Dear Amy,

This is an interesting debate, and one which has been ongoing since A.T. Still was making his rounds in Missouri in the late 1800s. I graduated from PCOM in 1986 and remember hearing something during my first year about a supposed study that was performed by the ACGME or some other allopathic body looking at the average credentials of osteopathic first year medical students vs. those of first year allopathic students. Apparently, the purpose of the study was to determine if there was a difference between M.D. and D.O. students academically.

Supposedly, the study found that there was no statistically significant difference between the two groups with respect to MCAT scores, grades, etc, but to my knowledge, the study was never published. My father is a D.O. and I became an osteopathic physician because I admired the way my father practiced medicine. I was really not aware of the differences between the way M.D.s and D.O.s were regarded, or the issues D.O.s faced once they reached the level of postgraduate training and clinical practice.

I didn't apply to any allopathic schools. I believed then, and I believe now, there is no meaningful difference between the quality of education received by D.O.s and M.D.s at the medical school level. The curricula, resources, and faculty are very similar - sometimes even identical and shared between schools. However, I believe that in postgraduate training, and especially when it comes to subspecialty fields, there may be enormous differences in the opportunities available to D.O.s.

To say that D.O.s are believed inferior to M.D.s in the working world of health care is to paint with a very broad brush to say the least. However, when individuals are being considered for competitive postgraduate training opportunities at academic allopathic institutions, D.O.s are definitely at a disadvantage. There are some individuals in the academic allopathic world (and probably more than a few in osteopathic medicine as well) who believe that many (even most?) individuals who end up in an osteopathic medical school do so for the same reason some people end up attending medical school in the Caribbean - because they were rejected from M.D. schools. And let's face it - for some individuals this is indeed the case.

Hopefully, most people who pursue an osteopathic education do so because they find the osteopathic philosophy appealing. Because some people (even in my own institution) do feel this way, I believe osteopathic students and residents have to work that much harder to put their best efforts forward at all times. When we have the occasional resident who comes through our department who is not where he or she should be in terms of knowledge base, or worse, in terms of effort put forth, they may be looked at differently by some depending on the initials after their name. If their degree is M.D., a comment might be "dumb", or "geeze, he's lazy!". If the person is a D.O., the comment might be "Oh, he's a D.O." as if such behavior or performance is less surprising because less is expected of that person.

The most important thing for any D.O. (let's face it - for any physician) to do is to always put their full effort into their work. There is no substitute for work ethic and dedication. Would I do it again? I would. I have had some measure of success in the allopathic world and I am proud of my training and background. Maybe some of my success was just being in the right place at the right time, but I hope it was because when I was given the chance to compete with M.D.s on their turf, I gave enough effort to be seen not as a D.O. trying to compete in an M.D.'s world, but just as another physician in training, and then as faculty, who was doing a good job.

Some others, however, may have difficulty getting the chance to show what they're made of; some subspecialty fields are so competitive, D.O.s may find it harder to get the opportunity to train in them at large academic institutions. Unfortunately, there are very few large academic osteopathic institutions, and I believe that these types of institutions, in general, are at an advantage in terms of the ability to provide the best subspecialty education and training in some fields.

However, most physicians end up in private practice or on staff at smaller institutions with completely mixed staffs and whether one is an M.D. or a D.O. is completely irrelevant. Also, there is little difference in training between allopathic and osteopathic institutions in primary care and general medical fields. There are other issues as well with regard to primary care vs. specialty fields, and the choices of M.D.s vs. D.O.s, but this is a separate discussion. I would be happy to discuss these things with you in more detail if you would like.

Best of luck in your future training. If the right effort is put into your career, you can achieve any goals you set for yourself. I am proud of my osteopathic background and I know that D.O.s are equal to M.D.s in every way. Don't ever be ashamed or embarrassed by your choices.



edited for personal info by moderator. Indicated by ----.

[nrai2001]

I think you really have a lot of things to learn about img ed before making your decision. To begin with there are no "foreign medical student" exams these days. We take the same exams period as US students. Also, you dont spend 4 years on a tropical island; its 2 years and while not arduous, you arent on vacation and its not like being on vacation by any stretch. You also need to consider other things first when selecting an offshore school- first, the success of the students getting to and passing the usmle in a timely way (ie with their class). The ability to be licensed in the state you desire and the sort of residencies the grads get. THen things like lifestyle and cost come in. Who cares if you pay very little but can't practice after 4 years? Finally, FP is a field very easy to get no matter what you do in which case you can pick almost any route; that's why you have UNIBE folks at a "Mayo" program. I hazard to guess there are no UNIBE folks in Mayo-Rochester's orthopedics proram. if you decide to do, say, surgery or something really competitiive, picking a schoool based on cost or internet education may be the worst decision you'll ever make.

With regard to DO' if you avoid that path merely because some people will have a poor perception of it, you may as well avoid an offshore school (to say nothing of a net school) as there exists a same bias. Most DOs go that way because they fail to get into a us allo school jus tlike IMGs. PDs know this. And most DOs never practice much manipulation although they do tend to have a superior knowledge in the Musculoskeletal system over MDs in general- specialitist in the field are all on the same page of course.

Again, folks, this topic has been debated a lot and i urge you to do a search on it rather than open new threads.

IN any event, either route is a viable one if you make an informed decision.

Is UNIBE the internet school?

[oskie94]

Do you think that this is an accurate perspective on the topic?

http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/mdordo.asp

[nrai2001]

Do you think that this is an accurate perspective on the topic?

http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/mdordo.asp

Yes completely. I have had a hard time deciding between SGU and DO school.

In the end you ll probably be doing the same thing. But if your interested in the more competitive residencies I think DO is the way to go, bc they have their own residency programs (Neuro surg., ortho surg., general surg., ENT, RAD, plastics, cards, GI,....)

If you want to do primary care then both are good. But DOs can also do OMM (osteopathic muscle manipulation). Which is billable and pays very well.

If your gonna do primary care, then you should decide if you can live with a DO behind your name rather than an MD.

http://opportunities.aoa-net.org/search/search.cfm

[Tyson]

So, how is the difference in quality of education between DO schools and schools like AUC, ROSS, SGU and SABA?

Touro just opened a school in Vallejo California on an old military base. The campus is OK but it isn't great. I'm sure SGU has a much nicer campus. I am just wondering if the Profs are also better at SGU. I guess there is really no way to know for sure since if a student goes to one school then they aren't going to any others.

It just strikes me as strange that the conversation on this thread is mostly about the respect we will receive with a DO verses an IMG MD rather than which school will make us the better doctors. If that isn't an example of how screwed up and political medical education is I don't know what is.

So, does anyone know about the pass rates on MLE's for DO schools verses IMG MD schools? Do any of us care or are we really just concerned with what other docs will say about us in the hallway?

"Oh look at him... he couldn't get into a good school that's why it says DO on his name tag..."

Or "Do you know were that MD went to school? Well were ever he went he sure is cute."

How about this one, "Who is that bum begging change in from of the hospital... you know that guy that says he is an MD or a DO or something but he couldn't pass his exams because his school sucked."

Lets face it none of us graduated top of our class from undergrad so we better go to a school that is known for taking us less than perfect students and turning us into USMLE passing machines. If that means I have a DO on my name tag fine... If it means I go to that monastery that call Saba great. The key is passing the exams and not who will think we are cool.

[pstone09]

So, how is the difference in quality of education between DO schools and schools like AUC, ROSS, SGU and SABA?

Touro just opened a school in Vallejo California on an old military base. The campus is OK but it isn't great. I'm sure SGU has a much nicer campus. I am just wondering if the Profs are also better at SGU. I guess there is really no way to know for sure since if a student goes to one school then they aren't going to any others.

It just strikes me as strange that the conversation on this thread is mostly about the respect we will receive with a DO verses an IMG MD rather than which school will make us the better doctors. If that isn't an example of how screwed up and political medical education is I don't know what is.

So, does anyone know about the pass rates on MLE's for DO schools verses IMG MD schools? Do any of us care or are we really just concerned with what other docs will say about us in the hallway?

"Oh look at him... he couldn't get into a good school that's why it says DO on his name tag..."

Or "Do you know were that MD went to school? Well were ever he went he sure is cute."

How about this one, "Who is that bum begging change in from of the hospital... you know that guy that says he is an MD or a DO or something but he couldn't pass his exams because his school sucked."

Lets face it none of us graduated top of our class from undergrad so we better go to a school that is known for taking us less than perfect students and turning us into USMLE passing machines. If that means I have a DO on my name tag fine... If it means I go to that monastery that call Saba great. The key is passing the exams and not who will think we are cool.


very, VERY true. but id say in the end, just flip the friggin coin!! :D

[nrai2001]

very, VERY true. but id say in the end, just flip the friggin coin!! :D

I dont agree. I think you should carefully think out what you re getting yourself into.