Michigan clinicals

[mjlmjl]

Hi,

I've gotten a few messages about Michigan clinicals so I thought I could share with you my limited knowledge of the subject and hopefully provide some useful info for students who are considering it.

I am presently a third year clinical student at Providence. At present you can do your entire third and fourth years EXCLUSIVELY in Michigan if you were so inclined.

Which hospitals are SGU affiliated?
Providence in Southfield (2 miles north of Detroit) and
St. Joe's in Pontiac (roughly 10 miles north of Detroit)
both are IMG friendly and I can say that Providence is a good hospital.

There are many AUC students that rotate here and I know from word of mouth that many of the other area hospitals allow unaffiliated electives without much hassle if you are so inclined.

There are also many DO students here as well as Wayne State University students (the area US school... Detroit is in Wayne county)

Can you do all your cores here?
Uh... the rules might be changing on that one... Providence's Peds and Pscyh are not directly ACGME accredited (i.e. no residency programs in these specialties) HOWEVER, SGU students have been doing Psych at Providence for years and I was able to do Pediatrics at St. John in Detroit which is Providence's sister hospital.

Cost of living/ Quality of life etc...
If you are in Detroit (the MOTOR city) you MUST and I mean MUST have a car. Public transport is nearly non-existent.

Cost of living probably isn't as much as NY/NJ but don't expect it to be dirt cheap either. Both SGU hospitals are in Oakland County which is very suburban... and family orientated... nice for students with families.
Not as many young people around as in other large urban settings, but there is PLENTY to do.

One fun fact is that Canada is actually south of me... Windsor, Canada is a mere bridge away from Detroit and it is approximately 4 hrs from Chicago and Toronto and about 2 hrs from Cleveland.

I'll try and check back to this post if anyone has questions for me...
Mike

[drnick07]

Are clinicals in MI handled as one entity with students doing rotations at both St. Joe and Providence (kind of like a clincal center), or are you assigned all your rotations at one hospital and then have to foot work to go to the other?

What is the atmosphere like at the hospitals you've rotated through? - autocratic with domineering residents, or team- and learning-oriented? Do people (MDs, RNs, etc) seem willing and wanting to help you and answer questions? Are the MDs mostly IMGs or US-born?

MI typically does not offer many spots, so do you interact much with other students (SGU and others) or are you mostly by yourself with the residents and attendings on the wards?

My final question is more broad and less specific, but since you're someone who is in the exact situation/location i want to be in a year from now, i'll ask it here. It's aimed at others as well.

How able is someone to hold a job during clinicals? I'm a medical technologist and am hoping to get a job working in one of the hospital labs, doing maybe 1-2shifts a week on the weekend or PRN. There are positions available, but will i have time?

[mjlmjl]

To answer these questions (my responces are in bold)
Are clinicals in MI handled as one entity with students doing rotations at both St. Joe and Providence (kind of like a clincal center), or are you assigned all your rotations at one hospital and then have to foot work to go to the other?
>>> I don't know what they are doing for each particular term... Bayshore could probably paint a better idea than myself. Providence was offered for my class after clinical centers were assigned, I changed rather last minute... a good friend of mine tipped me off. I don't know how it is handled now

What is the atmosphere like at the hospitals you've rotated through? - autocratic with domineering residents, or team- and learning-oriented?
I'm sure everyone you speak to has a different answer to this question... like anywhere there are good days and bad days... So much of it is what YOU make of it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in alot of ways its up to the individual student. In my humble opinion Michigan is student friendly.

Do people (MDs, RNs, etc) seem willing and wanting to help you and answer questions?
Some are very helpful, some could be more helpful. This is not unique to Michigan.

Are the MDs mostly IMGs or US-born?
Providence has many AUC residents and attendings... There are plenty of US grads, plenty of DOs and plenty of non US IMGs too... A good mix I think you could say... each specialty is different in this sense too... (i.e. not as many IMGs in Surgery)

MI typically does not offer many spots, so do you interact much with other students (SGU and others) or are you mostly by yourself with the residents and attendings on the wards?
There are very few SGU students but there are MANY MANY AUC students and plenty of DO students and a few Wayne students.

My final question is more broad and less specific, but since you're someone who is in the exact situation/location i want to be in a year from now, i'll ask it here. It's aimed at others as well. How able is someone to hold a job during clinicals? I'm a medical technologist and am hoping to get a job working in one of the hospital
I'm not so sure that sounds like a good idea. In some rotations you will have your weekends free, but don't always count on it... don't forget third year is no vacation (you're still a med student)... and you will be on call

[drnick07]

I was able to do Pediatrics at St. John in Detroit which is Providence's sister hospital.

Wait a second, let me get this straight, you were able to do one of your cores (psych) at an UNAFFILIATED hospital??? That's unprecedented, or is it?

You may have been able to do all of your cores in MI, but what is offered is changing. I got this info from the clinicals website:

HOSPITALS AVAILABLE FOR SPRING 2004
IM=Medicine OB=Ob/Gyn PD=Pediatrics P=Psychiatry S=Surgery
Name/Spots available/Rotations offered
Providence Hospital and Medical Center, MI / 4 / IM,OB,PD,P,S
St. Joseph Mercy Hospital, Pontiac, MI/ 6 / IM,S,P

HOSPITALS AVAILABLE FOR FALL 2004
Providence Hospital, MI / 6 / IM,OB,S
St. Joseph Mercy Hospital, Pontiac, MI / 4 / IM,S

So whats the difference between what the students who just started clinicals and those will be starting in the Fall? -The fall 2004 list are only the rotations in areas where they have a ACGME ("green book") accredited residency program. I don't know if this is attributable to the normal ebb-and-flow of different rotations offered to the august vs. jan. class, or if the university is starting to crack down on cores done at a place w/o a ACGME residency program. Time will tell.

[5th Termer]

Psych was added to the list for our term (Fall 2004 - it's under Q & As). Only IM and S are available at St. Joseph. To my knowledge, the placements are separate and students do not rotate between the hospitals. That means if you go to St. Joes, you move around more.

You might not be aware of the interest in these hospitals. Some students are from the Midwest and want to stay close to home. Other students with families like the Midwestern setting no matter where they are from (even the northeast) due to the perceived lower cost of living. Canada is closer to Providence than Chicago...just across the bridge or tunnel from Detroit. You just rank your choices and hope for the best, but I know from personal experience that there are not enough spaces for everyone who wants to go.

[mjlmjl]

5th termer is correct...

Although they are roughly ten miles apart Providence and St. Joes are separate assignments. However, some students at St. Joes rotate at Providence and of course vice versa.

Yes Detroit borders Windsor, Canada... just across the river.

Its too bad that there aren't more placement spots in the midwest, but then again there aren't as many midwestern students (as compared to the number of East and West Coast students)

Its no big secret that each term is offered different rotation sites... Some hospitals may only be offered for the January class etc... no need to worry too much about it until you are at St. Vincent because it is not something that you can control

Also in reference to the remark about a core at an unaffiliated hospital... I am doing Peds through Providence AT St. Johns... they are sister hospitals and AUC does the same year round (many many AUC students and residents at St. John's)

The psych green book issue is a confusing one... I'm not so sure that I get the whole picture... BUT Wayne state does go through providence psych rotation. This is only an issue in certain states (i.e. Texas)