Is SGU a "sink or swim" school?

[BrianK0220]

From what I've gathered Ross is merciless. I know SGU is a for-profit school, but does it care more about its students graduating?

[rokshana]

From what I've gathered Ross is merciless. I know SGU is a for-profit school, but does it care more about its students graduating?

you're going to get a bias viewpoint here, what with this being an sgu forum and all, but i would have to say, that sgu is overall supportive, esp in the beginning...there are alot of resources available for 1st termers to make sure they don't get left behind...the profs (at least when i was there) were very approachable and very accessible.

yes, as you progress through the terms, there is less available in terms of outside resources (no DES tutoring sessions for example) but you should need less external help...profs (or tutors) are still approachable and accessible...

yes sgu IS for profit, and i am sure that the bottomline is well..the bottomline, but they are also savvy enough to know that making sure that the students that they admit succeed at med school and go on to become practicing MD in the US...what better advertisement could sgu have than successful students

sgu understands that you have to PUT money into a business to make it a profitable one

sure you will hear some complaint, what school won't have them? but overall...sgu gives to the abilty to learn the material you need to know for the steps, exposes you to good clinical experience and give you the shot at securing a residency spot, what more can you ask of a med school?

[david the walrus]

You could probably find the actual attrition rate somewhere, I don't have that. I can tell you from personal experience that between 20-25% of the entering class will not finish "on time". A significant portion decelerates to avoid failing classes.

[CANeh]

You could probably find the actual attrition rate somewhere, I don't have that. I can tell you from personal experience that between 20-25% of the entering class will not finish "on time". A significant portion decelerates to avoid failing classes.

DTW, attrition rate means dropping out. If they decel it is not attrition. :noidea:

[david the walrus]

DTW, attrition rate means dropping out. If they decel it is not attrition. :noidea:

Well aware of the distinction. But the thread isn't explicitly on attrition. I don't know about you, but I see the decel rates and I definitely think "sink or swim"...

[rokshana]

i think of it as more like left on your own to find your way...

[TheFooBar]

From what I've gathered Ross is merciless.

Never met Ross, so I can't comment.

Is SGU a "sink or swim" school?I guess it depends on what you mean "sink of swim." It's true; for each class you either pass or you don't. Overall you either graduate or you don't. You either survive and get spiffy letters after your name, or you don't and you panic and try and figure out how you will ever pay off the debt.

In my personal experience the professors are very straightforward about what it takes to pass the course. If you come up short, sometimes even by a single question, you came up short and will be retaking the course. I suppose that's the "sink" side of the equation.

As for the "swim" part of the equation, there are numerous resources available to students to help them swim. Of course there are lectures which are recorded and can be reviewed at your leisure. There's usually a handout for each lecture, sometimes great, sometimes not. For first year courses there are multiple tutoring and review sessions run by upper term students who got at least a B in the course.

The Department of Educational Services (DES) holds talks where they give strategies for studying, time organization, note taking, test anxiety, etc.

If you're having trouble adapting to either medical school or Grenada (or other problems) you can get free counseling through the school.

If you need more specific or individual help with a given topic you can make an appointment with the faculty.

For those students who fail a course, the university tries to get you to focus on your problem course. You're not allowed to participate in clubs, sports, or anything else that requires registration through the school. Nor do you have to repeat the entire semester (unlike Mr Ross) so you can focus only on what you failed.

Again, I can only speak about my direct experience, but the students I've known who have failed or decelled all had the same problem - not enough time studying and too much time on beach, Bananas (local club), beer, Bacardi, Bollywood films [1], babes, bachelors, babies, blondes, basketball, boats, and a billion other distractions.

I know SGU is a for-profit school, but does it care more about its students graduating?I'd say SGU cares about providing its students with an education. It's up to the students to do the necessary work to get the education, graduate, and do something meaningful with it. It will be work, lots of it. Everything you need to accomplish it is readily available.

[1] And yes Hollywood. Mentioning that would wreck the alliteration.

[Wh0Kares]

isn't everything in this world sink or swim?

[Kongakut]

I think I prefer to float.

[Golding]

I think I prefer to float.
They all floaaaaat down here.

YouTube- Pennywise Clown

[CANeh]

It is med school not elementary school. Learn to swim and you will do fine. SGU is kind enough to give you a chance to study medicine (and decel if you need to without them kicking you out or make tou repeat whole term). Clearly many of us didn't have the numbers to get into plan A (or B)

[icalz]

It would make sense to me (this isn't an authoritative post) that any for-profit business (speaking of sgu or ross) would want to produce as many doctors as possible, and accomplishing this by filling as many residency positions as possible. If they acquired a reputation of being a dead-end for your dream of becoming a doctor then they would rapidly lose their profit base: more and more applicants.

Sgu seems to be gaining respect and reputation and I can't imagine this being the case without being supportive in every way of their students (their cash cows); of which I will most likely be one soon.....moooo.

[jackbnimble]

From what I've gathered Ross is merciless. I know SGU is a for-profit school, but does it care more about its students graduating?

Brian,

That's a good question and as you can tell, none have provided a definitive answer. As they say, those that know don't speak while those that speak don't know. Therefore I will write.;) I will not provide a good answer either.

Some attended RUSM while others attended SGU. Few (none?) have attended both...so how would they really objectively reply? I attended neither, so here goes...

Both schools are for-profit, but I do not think that tax status really leads to an answer to your question. I do not see a higher degree of institutional compassion at a public institution as compared to a private one. The compassion is that when one sinks at a public institution it is not as deep---not as much debt.

I have taught both Ross and SGU students and grads and do not really see a demonstrable difference between the two. Granted my n is relatively small, but I cannot imagine that one going to sink at the former would swim at the later.

Both schools have a decided interest in having as many students as possible complete the program and pass boards. However, they do not really have so much responsibility as to assist in passing beyond the obvious, tutoring, office hours, mentors, advisors etc. Afterall, they can just as well recruit students that will not need so much support and the "profit margin" on those students is higher.

It seems Ross accepts students with lower credentials, in many cases they leave, and Ross ends up with a similar caliber of student as SGU. I say that because it is my experience in the wards. Take it as worth what you paid for it...

Again, I think you are asking some of the right questions between the two schools, but I don't really see how you are going to get the answer. Given the choice, you have to decide which works best for you. That said, it really is all about clinicals and any way you are able to determine information about the stability of both schools clinical relationships will only enhance your decision making ability. I don't know how to obtain that information with the inherent biases that go into the answering the question.

Best wishes,

Jack

[argazul]

That said, it really is all about clinicals and any way you are able to determine information about the stability of both schools clinical relationships will only enhance your decision making ability. I don't know how to obtain that information with the inherent biases that go into the answering the question.

to the OP, just visit the Ross clinicals forum here and you will see what kind of problems they encounter. Also learn about how the clinicals are set-up (esp. 3rd year) at both schools and make your decision.

[Wh0Kares]

yeah definitely listen to someone that attended neither school...

as for sgu, the bottom line is you have to step up or step out..but having said that, there a lot of support available at school for people in need of academic help or advice...

don't expect to float when you cant swim

[jackbnimble]

yeah definitely listen to someone that attended neither school..

Yeah, probably better to get an objective opinion from someone that attended one of the two?:confused:

[rokshana]

however the OP did NOT ask sgu vs ross, so your post jack is OFF TOPIC to this thread...

and bluntly, your opinion on this topic IS worthless (yeah, i said it...) you have NOT attended sgu (or ross for that matter) and so have no idea if sgu is sink or swim...in this instance you need to have attended the sgu as a student to be able to give any kind of informative answer...or did "someone" invite you to answer this question as well...


and IMHO I DID give a definitive answer...no sgu is NOT sink or swim...there is support and you get chances (ie decel, repeat the course you failed instead of an automatic dismissal) to keep plugging away...sometimes those who know DO speak.

[jackbnimble]

and bluntly, your opinion on this topic IS worthless (yeah, i said it...)

Then don't read it. Is "ready-fire-aim" worthwhile?

...sometimes those who know DO speak.

That remains to be seen.

QED,

Jack

[Wh0Kares]

Yeah, probably better to get an objective opinion from someone that attended one of the two?:confused:

yeah i definitely rather get any sort of info from someone who is clueless about both schools

[TheFooBar]

As they say, those that know don't speak while those that speak don't know.

You start by taking a swipe at everybody who has already replied. Stay classy, Jack.

I will not provide a good answer either.On this we agree.

I have taught both Ross and SGU students and grads and do not really see a demonstrable difference between the two. Granted my n is relatively small, but I cannot imagine that one going to sink at the former would swim at the later.Unless you're lecturing in Grenada or Dominica the problem with your assertion is that most of the sinking happens in the first two years. Comparing MS-3, MS-4, and MDs from the school totally ignores the first two years where students are vastly more likely to be dismissed for academic reasons.

Again, I think you are asking some of the right questions between the two schools, but I don't really see how you are going to get the answer. While the OP didn't do a great job of asking the question, asking students if they felt the school gave them the necessary support, assistance, and encouragement vs. throwing them a bunch of text books and saying "exam in 8 weeks, fail and we kick you out while laughing" seems like a good start.

That said, it really is all about clinicals and any way you are able to determine information about the stability of both schools clinical relationships will only enhance your decision making ability. Yeah, you don't get it or have forgotten how medical school works. Passing the first two years of medical school is a requirement for going onto the third year. A school having awesome clinical spots is of no significance if students can't pass the first two years.

[digitalising]

In response to the OP, I would say no (leaning towards absolutely not, but that's probably a bit too strong). From orientation onwards you are informed of all the academic resources available to you. Profs regularly announce or publish their office hours so that you can go in to ask questions (the approachability of the profs varies from high to bring a stake), and DES organizes review sessions run by students and M.D.s (I remember a particular Dr. K.D. for Physio). Students are encouraged from day -2 (orientation) to form study groups and work with them, to get help early if they find they are struggling, and to be aware of the various supplemental resources and services, academic, social, and psychological, that they may need in helping them learn the material and adjust to life on the island.

Furthermore, we have a lot of alumni coming back to talk to students, and to work in locum tenens (not sure if I'm using that term correctly) at the local hospital. One of my friend's friends, who is currently a pediatrician, came back to visit and for vacation. While here, she worked a health fair and showed us how to do pediatric exams. Another student came back to organize a review session for Immunology. Clubs organize Skype teleconferences with docs back in the States so that we can learn from their expertise. Even students who graduated years back will return. Many of our Bioethics small group leaders were current M.D.s. I remember a cardiologist from Chicago who came back to talk to us about his route and fellowships. I've been struck by the willingness of SGU's alumni to support current students' ambitions and to come back to an island that can be rather difficult and expensive to reach.

[rokshana]

Is "ready-fire-aim" worthwhile?
What does this EVEN mean???

have you met Better think twice over on the ross forum...you two are a match made in heaven....

[jackbnimble]

You start by taking a swipe at everybody who has already replied.

No swipe intended only that the answers seemed circuitous. If my intent was to take a swipe, I probably would not have discounted my response along with the rest. Absent having done both RUSM and SGU, is anyone really able to properly answer the question? They are really left with dueling pro and pro lists from the respective schools.

A school having awesome clinical spots is of no significance if students can't pass the first two years.

A school having awesome didactics is of little benefit if they have lousy or insufficient clinicals.

Some are more interested in combative retorts than reasoned replies.

Thanks,
Jack

[jackbnimble]

What does this EVEN mean???

--- "ready-fire-aim" as opposed to "ready-aim-fire?" I think the difference is pretty obvious.

[Wh0Kares]

don't you have anything else to do in the world other than posting on a school's forum that you have a sub-zero amount of knowledge about? its getting sad

[kananaskis_girl]

keep on topic folks, no personal attacks this time, please :wink:

[TheFooBar]

Absent having done both RUSM and SGU, is anyone really able to properly answer the question? They are really left with dueling pro and pro lists from the respective schools.

So in your estimation we shouldn't bother to tell the OP what resources the school has because we haven't been to Ross?

This is the nature of life; having to make discrete choices with incomplete information. Current and recent students who have undergone the process and have provided the OP direct insight on what offerings SGU has. Plus your advice.

With that the OP will have to make their choice; it isn't perfect but short of waiting for someone to graduate from both schools it is as good as it gets.

A school having awesome didactics is of little benefit if they have lousy or insufficient clinicals. "Sink or swim" as compared to the merciless Ross clearly implies "pass vs. fail" not "what is the quality of clinical rotations."

[Anastomosis]

You could probably find the actual attrition rate somewhere, I don't have that. I can tell you from personal experience that between 20-25% of the entering class will not finish "on time". A significant portion decelerates to avoid failing classes.

I think every term about 20% decel.. so probably around 60-70% of people will go through the 2 yrs without decelling. Regarding somebody's comment about failing by one point, I actually know someone who failed a class by one point and kept harassing profs and deans about it. I'm proud that SGU stood their ground, as they can't be making exceptions for students once a cutoff is made. Regarding sink or swim, i don't think its really either. I feel those people who fail or drop out are those that party too much or just lost motivation, and not really a fault of SGU.
Having said that, pathology in 4th term I think is the one class I feel SGU is trying to trim down students. Dr. B (the course director) is quite possibly the WORST professor I have ever seen. The sad part is, I think he thinks that he is doing a good job with the structure of this course. He has this course set up so that he does ALMOST NOTHING. HIs notes are half assed, he is not approachable, going to him for help.. don't even waste your time. He'll just tell you to go do concept maps which is a total joke. We have a new visiting professor every week, and they vary greatly in quality, but the sad part is... they aren't even involved in making the exams. They lecture what they think is important, and then Dr. B tests us on what HE thinks its important, and it doesn't correlate that well. In addition, the lab rarely correlates with the lecture of the class. To do well in the class, you don't use class notes as your primary source (cause they mostly suck), but you use previous term's slide material + other things that do not originate from the department, but from past students. This is not how a class should be run, but sadly to do well.. this is what students must do. I truly think this is the one class SGU is trying to trim down students as evidenced by the 68 on the 2nd exam. Whenever you have such a low exam average, I don't care how hard the subject is, the problem doesn't lie in the students, it lies in the exam.

[jackbnimble]

So in your estimation we shouldn't bother to tell the OP what resources the school has because we haven't been to Ross?

No, I didn't say that. Instead, I wrote:

Again, I think you are asking some of the right questions between the two schools, but I don't really see how you are going to get the answer. Given the choice, you have to decide which works best for you.

A comparison implies evaluating between two or more alternatives. I don't see that dueling pro lists provides that information. Obviously, if you could say, "Joe would sink at Ross and swim at SGU," you answer the questions.

I agree the fact finding is tortuous as one's bias precedes them. I applied to 13 schools, interviewed/visited 8, and was accepted at four. I would never have gone to a school without visiting it first. That doesn't seem to be the IMG way--presumably for financial reasons? My Israeli school buddies do the same thing, thus I realize it is not a uniquely Caribbean approach. I believe were I applying to non-US schools, I would still visit them prior to making a decision. Do schools put their best foot forward during interviews? Of course. Is the information gained subjective? No doubt, but like you suggest and I agree....the selection process is not perfect so why not try to make the best possible decision? I would always advocate gaining as much information as possible. I just think there is a problem with available avenues of interpreting it.

Many advance to clinicals after Step I; therefore, sufficient resources must be available at both schools to succeed.

Good luck to the OP,

Jack

[Wh0Kares]

Many advance to clinicals after Step I; therefore, sufficient resources must be available at both schools to succeed.

Good luck to the OP,

Jack

Listen, we here know about the facilities at sgu and over the ross forum, the ross people know about their facilities..and the OP can compare the posts..you, on the other hand know NOTHING...so please refrain from pressing down on your keyboard keys when it comes to topics that you clearly know nothing about.

this topic as much as you like it to be has nothing to do with how successfully students are doing in clinicals....the OP is asking about the support services and weeding out systems that each school has..of which you again, know, NOTHING. see a pattern?

[jackbnimble]

see a pattern?

Other than your bitterness?

the OP is asking about the support services and weeding out systems...

Don't you think getting to clinicals has at least some relationship to successfully navigating the didactics? Make 215 plus on Step 1 and support was either unnecessary or sufficient.

Feel free to pass over my posts. I assure you that I will not take it personally.

[Wh0Kares]

Don't you think getting to clinicals has at least some relationship to successfully navigating the didactics? Make 215 plus on Step 1 and support was either unnecessary or sufficient.

Feel free to pass over my posts. I assure you that I will not take it personally.

again, that has NOTHING to do with clinical...the OP is asking about how things are within the school as a comparison to Ross...something that you know NOTHING about

Feel free to stop posting on our forum...I assure you we won't miss your lack of knowledge

[digitalising]

One can certainly navigate the basic years without school support. However, that would probably fall into the "sink" category.

As I and others have detailed above, SGU offers a wide range of student support services to help you succeed. One may conjecture all they want about the intentions of for-profit vs. non-profit schools, but in the end what's being implemented and how students benefit is what matters.

Although the OP mentioned Ross, the phrasing of the sentence shows that he/she wanted a comparison of SGU's financial interests against the academic interests of its students, not of SGU vs. Ross. This is something that can only be accurately answered by students who have attended or are attending the school. One can certainly succeed without DES groups, office hours, study groups, psychological services, etc., but then that might not be a school that many would consider tossing its students to the sharks (i.e., sinking). Fortunately, in my estimation, SGU is not like that for the reasons listed above.

I forgot to add in my post above - students are graded on a scale, not against each other, encouraging collaboration in learning rather than competition.

[Phrenetic]

First-termer perspective after 3 months in Grenada:

Anatomy
--------
Professors are very helpful
Lecture quality varies
Office hours are a hot commodity, you must be proactive about scheduling them in advance and not wait until all slots are filled - however, professors will do their best to make sure you get help, even when there are no open office hour spots left they will come to campus on the weekends to meet with your small group of 4-5 (just ask nicely)
Course objectives are clear and understandable, learn what is asked of you and you will do well on the exams

Biochem
--------
Quality of notes and lectures varies by professor
All professors are more than willing to sit down with you in office hours and clarify things
Profs are easily accessible, most have an open door policy

Histo
-----
Quality of most of the notes is mediocre to poor
Lecture quality and organization varies, but the material is not terribly complicated
Professors are very willing to meet with you and clarify any points you don't understand
Labs are generally very helpful, and can be outstanding if you have one of the better facilitators (all MDs), in hammering in the important points
There are excellent resources like Quizbank and Histotime available at the library (or from upper termers)

DES Sessions
-------------
I haven't attended any, so I can't comment on their utility. However, I do have copies of DES-designed summary handouts and review questions for a few topics, passed down from my Footsteps Buddy, and they are pretty good.

There are several levels of support, course instructor < course director < academic advisor < dean of students < chancellor, and so far my impression is that you can get help at each level.

I do have 2 close friends, one in 4th term and one in 4th year in NY applying for residencies, and I picked SGU based on their recommendations, among other things. They both have plenty of things that they would like to see improved, but they have both told me that SGU is a solid school and they are very happy with their decisions. My friend who is a 4th year now is really happy to have chosen SGU because of some of the extra challenges faced by Ross students in getting clinical spots (based on information shared by Ross students in NY).

Edit: I forgot to mention my favorite piece of support - Sonic Foundry!!! Lecture video recordings are available online within 1-2 hours after the lecture is given live, and this is, by far, the most helpful resource for me.

[jackbnimble]

First-termer perspective after 3 months in Grenada:

Anatomy
--------
Professors are very helpful
Lecture quality varies
Office hours are a hot commodity, you must be proactive about scheduling them in advance and not wait until all slots are filled - however, professors will do their best to make sure you get help, even when there are no open office hour spots left they will come to campus on the weekends to meet with your small group of 4-5 (just ask nicely)
Course objectives are clear and understandable, learn what is asked of you and you will do well on the exams

Biochem
--------
Quality of notes and lectures varies by professor
All professors are more than willing to sit down with you in office hours and clarify things
Profs are easily accessible, most have an open door policy

Histo
-----
Quality of most of the notes is mediocre to poor
Lecture quality and organization varies, but the material is not terribly complicated
Professors are very willing to meet with you and clarify any points you don't understand
Labs are generally very helpful, and can be outstanding if you have one of the better facilitators (all MDs), in hammering in the important points
There are excellent resources like Quizbank and Histotime available at the library (or from upper termers)

DES Sessions
-------------
I haven't attended any, so I can't comment on their utility. However, I do have copies of DES-designed summary handouts and review questions for a few topics, passed down from my Footsteps Buddy, and they are pretty good.

There are several levels of support, course instructor < course director < academic advisor < dean of students < chancellor, and so far my impression is that you can get help at each level.

I do have 2 close friends, one in 4th term and one in 4th year in NY applying for residencies, and I picked SGU based on their recommendations, among other things. They both have plenty of things that they would like to see improved, but they have both told me that SGU is a solid school and they are very happy with their decisions. My friend who is a 4th year now is really happy to have chosen SGU because of some of the extra challenges faced by Ross students in getting clinical spots (based on information shared by Ross students in NY).

Edit: I forgot to mention my favorite piece of support - Sonic Foundry!!! Lecture video recordings are available online within 1-2 hours after the lecture is given live, and this is, by far, the most helpful resource for me.

Your post would be very helpful to the OP.

Does admin also help with supplying the pigtail rubber bands? That gender presumption jumped over my head too.:p

We had note service and paid our classmates $60.00/lecture to transcribe the tapes. The head of lecture service got $1000.00/year plus the transcription fee. I think we charged $250.00/semester and were able to get it added to our tuition bill. The school contributed a high speed copier and paper. 90%+ signed up for the service. Peer pressure (lecture notes were signed by the transcriber) was so high that we literally spent 5 hours to transcribe lectures. They were due 3 days from the lecture, except around tests when they were due in one day and a premium was paid to the scribe. Most were more than adequate, some were works of art. Note service was sufficient that I probably viewed <2% of the wave files.

Jack

[TheFooBar]

A comparison implies evaluating between two or more alternatives. I don't see that dueling pro lists provides that information. Obviously, if you could say, "Joe would sink at Ross and swim at SGU," you answer the questions.

That's why the OP asked it as a general question rather than about a specific person.

I agree the fact finding is tortuous as one's bias precedes them. (...blah...blah...blah...) I believe were I applying to non-US schools, I would still visit them prior to making a decision.

This isn't about you or what you'd do in this situation. It isn't even about visiting schools before applying. Please reread the OP and really think about what it is asking.

It is not asking "Are there sufficient resources to pass at SGU or Ross?"
It is not asking "Should I visit the school before applying?"
It is not asking "WWJD (What would Jack do)?"
It is not asking "Will I, the OP, succeed at SGU"
It is not asking "How good of a doctor will I be from SGU or Ross?"

It is not asking "How do I decide between SGU and Ross?" Although the answer to the question being asked will likely factor into this question, it isn't the question being asked.

It is not asking "Do many students make it to third year?" Although the answer to this question follows from what they are asking, it isn't the question being asked.

Many advance to clinicals after Step I; therefore, sufficient resources must be available at both schools to succeed.

Define "many." Knowing that "many" succeed is only helpful if you're confident that you are one of the many. I've heard attrition rates at Ross anywhere from 20% (school officials) to 40% (students). Yeah, 80% of the entering class making it to clinicals could be called "many" but that is of little comfort to the other 20%.

No one is saying that a bare minimum of resources don't exist at every med school. The question is about the quality and nature of those resources and the response of the administration to students in trouble.

[Wh0Kares]

The question is about the quality and nature of those resources and the response of the administration to students in trouble.

of which jack knows NOTHING about. :D

[asystole]

I am going to repeat what a biochem professor told me this week. I was told that they are having to change the appeals process because of the number of students in this class and the next 01/2010. The are making the process more difficult and taking it out of the professors hands (more lenient) and making students appeal before the assistant deans. "so you are more likely to be axed". This is apparently an effort to increase the attrition rate since they are having problems with so many upper-termers failing exams (I saw this first-hand last week!!). I was told that they had identified the students early on and that they should have been let go then to avoid the problems they are having now. Nice huh? So, the bottom line... Pass Your Exams! The second chance is quickly going away.

[BrianK0220]

Great comments. Thanks guys.

At SGU and/or ROSS, do you schedule all of your third and fourth year clinical rotations in advance at once, or are you constantly scrambling to schedule new rotations after each rotation is over?

[Anastomosis]

I was told that they had identified the students early on and that they should have been let go then to avoid the problems they are having now.

Actually, SGU would probably like to axe students later into the basic science than earlier... so they can make more money.

[buckun]

In summary to all... I would say, they have given u the means... its upto you how well you use it. I have just finished basic sciences and in mu opinion, it was great, provided u know how to look after urself... hope this helps