CHEATING is condoned on SABA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[survivors]

So I hear that a lot of students have cheated among the 5th semesters and the school did NOTHING about that. Simply there were many students who were awarded their 90s and 98s for their exams.

It is simply and utterly unfair that those students were allowed to hold on to their high scores and those students that did not cheat were poised to accept their low grades as there was no adjustment made to the exam because of artificially high average and the number of A students in one exam.

It is simply unacceptable to me and other parents who are monitoring the situation where are kids are sent to study and learn to become future doctors and really hoping that the school does something about this situation as problems like this are quite common in other universities as well but there are clear protocols as to what needs to be done and I'm positive that the school will secure its integrity.

We will have to wait and see what happens in CLINICAL MEDICINE and PATHOLOGY II courses.

[Tellingitlikeitis]

Dude I hear you. when I was in PAth with Dr L, I couldnt get above a 86 in his class no matter how hard I studyed but yet an abnormal amount of people were getting ridicoulus grades, so no curve. I later found out that the people in my class were getting the answers from the people on St. Martin were this teacher had previously taught. Im lucky I passed, but i feel for the people who didnt, and might have if there had been a normal curve.
saba is an unjust place, and it will not change becuase change only happens when its forced on you. Like, lawsuit forced on you. And thats what saba needs.
I know this is going to inflame people, but its true.

[survivors]

That is exactly what's happening.

There are people who made 98 on the first test and then failed the next two exams because the professor made new questions and yet they are not going to fail the course because they have received a high enough grade on the fist exam on which there was a widespread cheating.

And those who did poorly on the first exam simply because they were honest and didn't have a fair chance to compete with their classmates and no adjustments were made are paying the price.

19 people failed the final ICM exam while 23 people had received an A on block 1 exam. But those students are not going to fail, however the students who didn't get an A in the first exam are not going to do well in the course and some perhaps might even fail because of this uneven distribution.

I have already spoke with a few more parents and we are prepared to follow up on this matter. This is 5th semester and this should not be allowed!!

[Tellingitlikeitis]

I am going to be honest with you, as much as I feel your pain. You cant do anything. You cannot sue saba, unless you are a Vanderbuilt and have vast Ali Baba fotunes, becuase saba is out of any jurisdiction in america, if that is where you are from. Fist of all, have you ever even see a courthouse on saba? no, you havent, it doesnt exist.
My best advice to you is to stay outta it. Its terrible to say, becuase I would love to stick it to saba more than anyone else in the world, but while you are on the island, if you make real waves for them, they WILL take care of you.
Im not being dramatic, but thats what happens in any country where there is no real rule of law.
Be careful. thas the best advice I can give to you. And becareful who you think your friends are too

[SPennella]

yeah there's nothing you can do about cheating at this school. the testing center is secure... you would have to be extremely skilled with networking and hacking in order to even cover your traces of obtaining an uploaded exam.

that leaves only two other options:
actually, three.

first, students can miss an exam because of illness and then get the questions from students that can remember them. the temptation is there and it's pretty hard to resist.

second, there could be exam questions handed down, like you said, which could be helpful if professors prefer to use the same exam for a few semesters in a row.

and then corruption between student/faculty (which I think is probably the most unlikely out of these three)

and you can't really collaborate in the testing center...


AND the reason why it's condoned here... is cause there's no way to actually PROVE this without hard evidence. use your head... if you want to make a big deal out of it, get tangible evidence and not rumors.

You can't wrongfully punish someone if they really scored an A on an exam.

[survivors]

My prerogative is truly not to fight the school or obscure its image. It is simply to have a conversation about this issue. They are training future Doctors and the standards at the school should and we would all hope to be higher than to allow such cheating to go on without taking care of those students who are trying to be honest and to make it through.

The preferred solution obviously is to deal with the situation right now before it is too late.

[Tellingitlikeitis]

right on dude, i love the anger. Reminds of the island, and of which I am trying to let go. However, I know how much the fury of injustice can envelope you. Its true, u could make a big stink, shout as loud as you can to anyone who will listen, and I wish you luck. But what if they do listen. Im assuming you are a student? would u take away your own accredidation? Saba admin does what it wants. It might change things if they felt threatend enough. Or they might escort you off the island. Both have happened.
Like I said, be careful . Better to be anonymous like myself, say what you can, but save yourself right? I was in your position not long ago, and I chose to let it go. I had to. So now I resort to my occasional rants on valuemd, with the knowledge that when saba no longer has its grip on me, I will shout as loud as Ican about how much the school sucks, start a website, do something cathartic. but till than.......i just tellitlikeitis

[survivors]

I'm not talking about failing the course which is not what I'm worried about. I'm mainly talking about each exam and how it is truly unjust to be compared with those students who have the exams in advanced and that the avg for that exam is abnormally high and therefore no adjustments is made which puts the honest students at a cross road to either cheat on the next exams or to suffer for being honest.

My prerogative is not to create a problem for the school as issues like this happen in any school but the problem that I see is that this school so far must be given the credit that they at least realized that the problem exists which is an appropriate first step. But we are just waiting to see what will be done. Are they going to make sure each student is evaluated fairly or are they going to simply act like nothing happened.

It is interesting to see what the school will do.

From my understanding Dr. C the chairman of the Clinical Medicine course is a very honest man himself and has tried his best to tackle the issue and I must command him for that. And we are all going to have to wait and see what he does next.

[darkmansaad]

ah i love threads that are just posts between two people preaching to the choir aka each other

[SPennella]

we had rumors like that in our histo class last semester (and even anatomy to an extent). it pissed me and some others off just as much. but after a while I realized that's all they are. rumors. did people have exam questions?... maybe.

what do you do when your competitors are using steroids in college sports and you know about it? You lift harder, eat bigger, and get better sleep. Use the frustration as your fuel.

or if you really want to catch someone who is cheating, put your mind to it and come up with a way to obtain tangible evidence and corner them if it really bothers you that much. and then go to one of the deans with it. technology is great these days. But, you'll be a rat if you're exposed for providing evidence and screwing someone over.

[SPennella]

oh by the way. dont' start rumors about cheating with an accrediting board or the hospitals that the 5th semester "cheaters" end up at . you'll make things even harder for all the people who are working for the goal. keep it contained within the school.

[darkmansaad]

spenella...the wisdom of your posts has not been seen in a long time. hopefully you can take my 'valuemd sheriff' mantle after i leave and regulate idiocy that reigns her

[survivors]

I am utterly disgusted by the level of dishonesty that seems to be the morale of a few of the future Doctors at SUSOM.

[Tellingitlikeitis]

I couldnt agree more with you. Been a while since I heard anyone out there who got real tired with way thing get run down there. Its true that you could say forget what other people do, work harder etc. And while thats true, in some ways it negates the hard work you do. Nothing made me madder than to have studied all weekend long for the anatomy lab exam, only to watch Dr. R give answers away to a student who had repeated the class. I wasnt the best student but I killed myself to get the grade that I got. And to watch as answered were given to a student who repeatedly wouldnt work hard, but rather spent the time fratinizing with the teachers made me real mad, and I wanted that student expelled. Later on that student did fail out in fourth semester because he couldnt handle the work load and so it was a big disservice to him in the end.
Pheww.. I feel better. Damn cheaters, students and teachers alike.

[GuitarHero]

I'm a current 5th semester student. So let me tell people here what the issue is.

Someone in 5th semester gave the clin med course director a file which contained old exam questions from previous semesters. Some or all of those questions turned up on the block 1 clin med exam. It was alleged that some students made use of this file.

That DOESN'T actually constitute an honor code violation. The professors have said as much. Is it unethical? Certainly. But it's not actually cheating. In most universities, it is perfectly fine to save old tests and distribute them to other students. In fact, many university professors make old tests available to students.

Because these questions were floating around, the professors decided to write new questions for block 2 and block 3. The averages were lower, but that was because all the questions were new and thus they hadn't been "battle tested." Adjustments WERE made for both exams. Bad questions were thrown out and students received points for them.

What exactly should Saba do? Throw out the first exam? Doesn't that unfairly punish students who didn't make use of those old test questions? If the first block gets thrown out, some students will fail as a result and we can't say that they ALL use those questions for block 1. How exactly can the school tell who "cheated" and who didn't?

[buddababa]

Let saba handle it internally, survivor, you are going to ruin a lot of peoples dreams. justice will be served, but if you continue to bring this out in the open, and something negative happens to our accreditation, I promise you, not just the cheaters but every single student currently enrolled in saba will ....well you can get the point

[atropine]

How can the administration determine who had access to these old questions, and who did not? You're making a demand to 'expel' certain students, but you don't even know who those students are, and neither does the administration. How is Saba condoning cheating when they did everything in their power to stop it by creating new exams? Did you want them to put everyone into a room and attach them to a lie detector? Did you want them to make a brand new block exam for everyone to write, and punish everybody for the actions of a few? Even if people were using old test questions, that happens all the time at colleges and universities in North America, and it's not necessarily 'cheating'. Bottom line, it sounds like you did well, and the questions were fair. If other students were just memorizing answers to old questions without learning the material, they are only hurting themselves in the end when it comes to write the Step 1.

If you keep making ridiculous statements like "cheating is condoned", you're only hurting yourself and other students at Saba by spreading these rumors around and giving the school a bad reputation. In this case, I think they responded appropriately. Please, for the sake of myself and everyone else at the school, think twice before doing this again.

[SPennella]

that's my point exactly^

and yeah I might be in second semester, but seriously, don't make too big of a deal out of this because there are people working hard in the lower semesters (and 5th I'm sure) that don't want to have a bad rep somehow linked to their school when they enter clinical rotations.

It will most likely catch up with the people that cheat in the long run. if they're learning close to nothing and only the particular test questions, they really won't know much of anything right? That's the whole point of an exam: you don't know what's on it which is why you try to learn as much as you can so that you have the whole dart board covered so to speak.
and there's nothing wrong with fraternizing with the professors in my opinion. you need to be comfortable with those that are teaching you. that's how it's going to be in clinicals I think. plus you aren't necessarily limited to learning in just the classroom. but yeah I do think that's a problem if a prof is just giving away a test... although I still find that really hard to believe.

[wolfvgang22]

At the risk of feeding the troll, and losing a few seconds I could be spending in hard earned PGY-1 post call sleep I offer this advice and personal observations:

1. If people are cheating, you can't do much about it except voice your concerns to school administration. The more people are concerned, the more likely something may be done about it. Talking to classmates in person might help you get needed voices, not griping on this forum with other anonymous posters.

2. Widespread cheaters at Saba will destroy the school's reputation and USMLE scores. So it probably won't be widely tolerated for very long. Saba admin is not brand new to this business of running a successful med school. They didn't get this far just to abandon their best cash cow.

3. Cheaters probably won't do as well as you on step 1, anyway. But who cares what they do from your personal standpoint? At the end of the day you are not really competing with other Saba students, you are competing with yourself and all med students who take the step 1. Your grades on the island don't matter much as long as you pass and learn something. You aren't going to get residency interviews based on where you ranked in your class on Saba as an IMG, but on how badly you thrash US students on the boards in your chosen specialty. Trust me on this. Act accordingly.

Best of luck to you,
~W

[EdwardO]

I never post anything on this site I like to watch you guys fight each other. I just want to clarify something, Survivors are you saying that your willing to destroy the careers of honest students by starting rumors with hospitals and accrediting boards without any hard evidence just to smoke out a few roaches?

[SPennella]

he didn't exactly say that. I got that drift from him and said it.

someone should delete this thread though... this site is open to the public. neway, internet break's over. back to biochem and physio. but seriously. someone kill the thread.

[wolfvgang22]

You have your wish. Locking.