View Full Version : Hard to get licence to work in canada?
Hammzah
10-02-2009, 01:35 PM
Does anybody know how hard it it to get a licence to work in canada after graduating from SABA, i heard it was almost impossible (very long process and you have to do like 7 exams , Canada only takes a few international medical graduates) . Does anyone have information regarding whether this is true or not????????
Mourning Cloak
10-02-2009, 04:37 PM
Does anybody know how hard it it to get a licence to work in canada after graduating from SABA, i heard it was almost impossible (very long process and you have to do like 7 exams , Canada only takes a few international medical graduates) . Does anyone have information regarding whether this is true or not????????
Short answer is "yes".
Long answer:
question about med practice in canada...plz help | Canada | Student Doctor Network
http://www.valuemd.com/canadian-img/176759-uncertain-steps-future-i-want-go-back-canada.html
http://www.valuemd.com/canadian-img/178092-canadian-img-issues.html
U.S. trained FP to Canada?? | Canada | Student Doctor Network
Does anybody know how hard it it to get a licence to work in canada after graduating from SABA, i heard it was almost impossible (very long process and you have to do like 7 exams , Canada only takes a few international medical graduates) . Does anyone have information regarding whether this is true or not????????
this is my understanding from the situation...
if you do your residency in canada, then you're fine!
BUT, the alternative is to do your residency in the US right? in that case, you are not really an international MD but more like a US MD... some provinces like Ontario made it easy for MD's who finished their residency in the US to come to Ontario to practice.
But again, I have not really researched this topic thoroughly, but this is what I understand from things I've read.
Hammzah
10-02-2009, 06:53 PM
check this out carribeanmedicine.com/openletter. htm its long but read it all .
this was written by Dr. **** **** who attended SABA university, he basically says that i should forget about returning to canada!!
Mourning Cloak
10-02-2009, 08:15 PM
BUT, the alternative is to do your residency in the US right? in that case, you are not really an international MD but more like a US MD... some provinces like Ontario made it easy for MD's who finished their residency in the US to come to Ontario to practice.
The only American specialist I'm familiar with on the boards who has attempted it is Monterey, but it doesn't sound like it was an easy or pleasant (or successful) experience.
Canadian fellowships | Canada | Student Doctor Network
As for Ontario, the US trained Canadians via Australia don't seem too happy with the options.
http://www.valuemd.com/australian-medical-schools/180367-ontario.html
Doing in residency training in Canada is absolutely the best option, but very competitive. Next best is training in the US, but then don't count on returning to Canada.
atropine
10-03-2009, 12:34 AM
check this out carribeanmedicine.com/openletter. htm its long but read it all .
this was written by Dr. **** **** who attended SABA university, he basically says that i should forget about returning to canada!!
Most of that guy's information is either outdated and false or grossly exaggerated. It is still pretty hard to get a residency in Canada, but you can always go the US route and return afterwards if you want. Ontario accepts your US training as equivalent, and I believe BC is doing the same now, too.
check this out carribeanmedicine.com/openletter. htm its long but read it all .
this was written by Dr. **** **** who attended SABA university, he basically says that i should forget about returning to canada!!
this source is out-dated... and he's very pessimistic... I've read it before but I don't like his negative attitude... PLUS as I said Ontario changed some of its rules since september 2008
"So if you want to return specifically to Ontario, and plan to do your training in Australia you'd better be content with GP (Family medicine), Psychiatry, Internal Medicine and possibly Emergency Medicine. This is just another way Canada (and Ontario) has limited your career options."
So if you really want to come back to ON you should do FM, IM, EM etc.
Now what if you wanna do neurosurgery for example? well, if you are that good to get a neurosurgery position in the states, you should be able to get a good residency here in Canada too, don't you think?
There are some outstanding canadian residency matches from last year on the list of Saba... I am not sure how many canadians applied for a canadian match, but I would assume not all canadians do. For example, I am a canadian and I really dont have any preference over practicing in Canada or the US... as long as I practice something I love (e.g perhaps Neurology! yay!!) then I'm happy...
so there is always ways to come back to Canada... its not like its the end of the world, there might be limitations or trade-offs but it's doable. Life is all about trade-offs anyways and this is no exception ;) ...
Mourning Cloak
10-03-2009, 08:04 AM
Now what if you wanna do neurosurgery for example? well, if you are that good to get a neurosurgery position in the states, you should be able to get a good residency here in Canada too, don't you think?
Bear in the mind that there is only ONE position in neurosurgery for cIMGs in the 2010 match. In 2009, there were 52 applicants (http://carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/3MatchReport_E.pdf) (12 were interviewed) for that spot. I don't know how that compares in terms of competitiveness with the US.
In 2009, only 20% of cIMGs who applied through CaRMS were matched. The majority of students end up in the US (see this) (http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30717&page=4). And be keenly aware that there are ROS contracts attached to the cIMG positions through CaRMS.
And read up on the fourth pathway through Ontario; it does have certain conditions (http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?ID=2354) placed upon it.
Then you're ready to apply to CaRMS! :) Good luck!
Bear in the mind that there is only ONE position in neurosurgery for cIMGs in the 2010 match. In 2009, there were 52 applicants (http://carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/3MatchReport_E.pdf) (12 were interviewed) for that spot. I don't know how that compares in terms of competitiveness with the US.
In 2009, only 20% of cIMGs who applied through CaRMS were matched. The majority of students end up in the US (see this) (http://premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30717&page=4). And be keenly aware that there are ROS contracts attached to the cIMG positions through CaRMS.
And read up on the fourth pathway through Ontario; it does have certain conditions (http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?ID=2354) placed upon it.
Then you're ready to apply to CaRMS! :) Good luck!
As I said I rather practice in California with a higher income than up here in Ontario where 7 months of the year is cold, so I don't know why you would wish me luck applying to CaRMS?
Also, as of the conditions, they are nothing!
Just look:
The following conditions will be placed on the certificate of registration:
The physician must practice with a mentor and/or supervisor until he or she has successfully completed an assessment.
The physician must undergo an assessment after completing a minimum of one year of practice in Ontario. The certificate of registration automatically expires 18 months from the date of issuance, but may be renewed by the Registration Committee, with or without additional or other terms, conditions and limitations.
Imagine you are a cardiothoracic surgeon graduated from Mayo clinic... you have to work with a canadian supervisor (graduated from UofT probably) and after a year, they will assess your work (remember, you are a graduate from US and they are assessing your work, how is this a big deal). They can do assessments as much as they like; you know your job since you are graduated from a US residency program so you shouldn't be afraid of their assessments! These rules are really just some cliche.
bottom line: Not all conditions should scare you off!!!
PS: let's face it, you are going abroad for MD education. For whatever reason, you couldn't manage to get into a canadian MD school. Now, your chances of being even an MD without Saba would be 0%. Now Saba is giving you the chance to become an MD and practice in the US or Canada, but canada path isnt as straight forward as the US and you have to 'work under the supervision of a colleague in canada and your work will be assessed after a year'. So let's throw away all the pessimism and remain positive. If you want to work in Canada, you will! It may not be as easy but you will!
mario345
10-03-2009, 01:30 PM
I have a question to all those who want to go back to canada...
what are your reasons?
family and friends?
do inform me...because i am perplexed...
Mourning Cloak
10-03-2009, 03:08 PM
so I don't know why you would wish me luck applying to CaRMS?
Because it's polite.
Shiz77
10-03-2009, 03:17 PM
I have a question to all those who want to go back to canada...
what are your reasons?
family and friends?
do inform me...because i am perplexed...
Gun control lol
Mourning Cloak
10-03-2009, 03:18 PM
How does the visa thing work for Canadians doing specialty residencies (e.g 4-5 years) in the US?
mario345
10-03-2009, 05:34 PM
Gun control lol
there are tonnes of safe quiet, and 'canadian' type of towns in U.S. as well...you dont HAVE to live in detroit, baltimore, and miami, you know...
you know, Woody Allen quoted someone in Annie Hall that "I don't want to be a member of a club that wants me as a member!"...
I've got a bunch of friends who just graduated from either engineering or architecture (all of my friends are in those two fields and not science/medicine!) and many of them WISH to get a job in the US and move to US eventually, BUT it's hard for them to do that! I mean they have to deal with the whole greencard issue and stuff and get a company to support them...
now look at us future canadian MDs.... I am sure if US had restrictions and made it HARD to get a job there after graduation and canada didnt, everyone wanted to go to the US! It's just like when people from highschool apply to the most competitive universities without considering anything else, and rank the universities based on how hard it is to get into those schools (e.g. UofT vs. McMaster where UofT makes your life miserable with 4000 students in every class but since its more difficult to get accepted to, everyone likes to go to UofT!)...
and yes, US isnt equal to Texas and Detroit... if you think so then ...
Shiz77
10-03-2009, 11:55 PM
you know, Woody Allen quoted someone in Annie Hall that "I don't want to be a member of a club that wants me as a member!"...
I've got a bunch of friends who just graduated from either engineering or architecture (all of my friends are in those two fields and not science/medicine!) and many of them WISH to get a job in the US and move to US eventually, BUT it's hard for them to do that! I mean they have to deal with the whole greencard issue and stuff and get a company to support them...
now look at us future canadian MDs.... I am sure if US had restrictions and made it HARD to get a job there after graduation and canada didnt, everyone wanted to go to the US! It's just like when people from highschool apply to the most competitive universities without considering anything else, and rank the universities based on how hard it is to get into those schools (e.g. UofT vs. McMaster where UofT makes your life miserable with 4000 students in every class but since its more difficult to get accepted to, everyone likes to go to UofT!)...
and yes, US isnt equal to Texas and Detroit... if you think so then ...
Your post makes no sense, are you saying Canadians want to go to the US just because we like things harder? ROFL, no it's cuz we're going to the caribbean.
Hammzah
10-04-2009, 01:36 AM
well im from Alberta not Ontario, i kinda wish i was from ontario, but i have family here in alberta and think its really hard to come back to alberta, plus his letter isnt outdated.
and for the record ,i know u can get residency in canada, but im talking about getting licence
mario345
10-04-2009, 12:37 PM
Your post makes no sense, are you saying Canadians want to go to the US just because we like things harder? ROFL, no it's cuz we're going to the caribbean.
well, you are going to the caribbean because you couldnt get into a cdn school...you arent doing anyone but yourself a favour...
secondly, i dont know about you...but i would not go back to canada for a variety of reasons...thats for another time :)
why should, equally good, if not better, and competent doctors from U.S. have to shadow and intern and seek approval of a fellow cdn doctor to be able to practise...
the whole world acknowledges U.S. education to be the best, yet, we have people in our government who hold different standards...thats why people laugh at the backwardness of the cdn system...
its not just cdn...its all commonwealth countries which have flooded their healthcare with these non sense policies which do nothing but to restrict a person from achieving what they want to do...australia, U.K, most of western europe, canada...all the same...
just wait till the economic situation turns around in the U.S and healthcare gets back on its feet...everyone will stop this non-sense of how canada is somewhat better for docs...and fly down here.
well im from Alberta not Ontario, i kinda wish i was from ontario, but i have family here in alberta and think its really hard to come back to alberta, plus his letter isnt outdated.
It does say that the letter was revised on September 9th, 2009 so yes I see why you would think that the letter is not outdated. However, it does not mentioned anything about the recent developments that were made in the licensing in November 2008. The author either is not aware of them himself or he chose not to mention them.
and for the record ,i know u can get residency in canada, but im talking about getting licence
You need to do some very basic research on how Canadian licensing system works to give you a clearer picture of the licensing process. If you do your residency in Canada you shouldn't not have any problems getting a license. It is finding a residency position within Canada that is a major barrier.
summerwind
10-04-2009, 06:28 PM
From what I have read there is a severe shortage of doctors in Canada, especially in rural areas, so I don't understand why the Canadian government makes it so difficult for Canadians to return home?
mario345
10-04-2009, 07:02 PM
From what I have read there is a severe shortage of doctors in Canada, especially in rural areas, so I don't understand why the Canadian government makes it so difficult for Canadians to return home?
because they want to ensure a 'standard of care' and only let those physicians practice that come through the canadian system ...
however, there are ONLY 17 schools in all of canada...the competition for a seat is SEVERE...there are NO private institutions...its a complete mess for pre-med students...and even after finishing all that, the compensation is not as good compared to states (i know i sound as if im putting money before everything, but dude...when you owe the bank close to $200k, your whole life and everyday choices are governed by that)...there is very little room to be ambitious as everything is government regulated...
plus, i just do not like the system in canada...treatment is delayed, because of the presumed understanding that resources are scarce (since its a government sponsored system, if person A takes up a certain amount of resource, then it automatically affects person B, C upto Z). I just dont like that. Sure, doctors in states go overboard at times and order tests right and left, but having the freedom to do so and practise aggressive medicine is VERY important to me. I dont want to think of 'oh gee! i better not order this test because WE as tax payers cant afford it.'
dont get me wrong, i like canada...but i don't like some of the aspects of cdn healthcare...i didnt like it when i lived there either...and im not going to kill myself to get a residency in nunavut...coz good luck getting a residency in GTA, calgary, vancouver - places where actually something is going on, and are worth living... :)
rest of candia is just an igloo...and no better than any midwest parts of U.S....actually it may be worse because its so friggin cold and you pay more taxes :P
meh...
Your post makes no sense, are you saying Canadians want to go to the US just because we like things harder? ROFL, no it's cuz we're going to the caribbean.
well, how long did it take you to read my post? 2.45 seconds?
no I actually said the exact opposite! lol... some comprehension would be handy here :clapover:
because they want to ensure a 'standard of care' and only let those physicians practice that come through the canadian system ...
however, there are ONLY 17 schools in all of canada...the competition for a seat is SEVERE...there are NO private institutions...its a complete mess for pre-med students...and even after finishing all that, the compensation is not as good compared to states (i know i sound as if im putting money before everything, but dude...when you owe the bank close to $200k, your whole life and everyday choices are governed by that)...there is very little room to be ambitious as everything is government regulated...
plus, i just do not like the system in canada...treatment is delayed, because of the presumed understanding that resources are scarce (since its a government sponsored system, if person A takes up a certain amount of resource, then it automatically affects person B, C upto Z). I just dont like that. Sure, doctors in states go overboard at times and order tests right and left, but having the freedom to do so and practise aggressive medicine is VERY important to me. I dont want to think of 'oh gee! i better not order this test because WE as tax payers cant afford it.'
dont get me wrong, i like canada...but i don't like some of the aspects of cdn healthcare...i didnt like it when i lived there either...and im not going to kill myself to get a residency in nunavut...coz good luck getting a residency in GTA, calgary, vancouver - places where actually something is going on, and are worth living... :)
rest of candia is just an igloo...and no better than any midwest parts of U.S....actually it may be worse because its so friggin cold and you pay more taxes :P
meh...
couldn't agree more!
canadian MD schools don't even take into account which university you graduated from.... just for reference, I took GCHEMII and OCHEMII at Ryerson U and ended up getting A and A+ respectively in those courses, while I got C+ and C- in GCHEMI and OCHEMI at UofT.... and guess what, 3 of my friends from the architecture school at Ryerson got into Dentistry and MD school at UofT and I didnt get an interview!!!!! :crazy:
lesson: canadian MD schools don't even consider which school you graduated from or what program you completed... well, your GPA from genetics major at UofT st.george would be 1.0 unit lower than a liberal arts student at York university.... but hey, they don't care! This just shows how messed up the system really is! Why would I kill myself and prove myself to such a messed up system? and get paid less and pay more tax? and freeze my a** off!!
canada doesnt want me, and I don't wnat them either. Thankfully, there is a more advanced country called USA just south of the border with so much better opportunities and better living standards who will be offering me better opportunities in the near future, so why bother to think about Canada at all?
I am a proud canadian, don't get me wrong. But in terms of their health care system.... meh
mario345
10-04-2009, 07:43 PM
^hehehe, another angry UofT-er...i think that there are many of us that share the same views...
dont worry, the rigor you went through at St. George will definitely help you in saba...
Mourning Cloak
10-04-2009, 08:26 PM
SG and Mario
Since you're going to the US, can you explain how the visa thing works? In particular, I'm confused how the J1 works with a 4-5 year residency.
summerwind
10-04-2009, 08:39 PM
.the compensation is not as good compared to states (i know i sound as if im putting money before everything, but dude...when you owe the bank close to $200k, your whole life and everyday choices are governed by that)...there is very little room to be ambitious as everything is government regulated...
I agree with your position on compensation. I was told that there are pay caps for primary care doctors in Canada...is that true?
KingMo
10-04-2009, 08:44 PM
God bless America. The greatest country in the world.
SG and Mario
Since you're going to the US, can you explain how the visa thing works? In particular, I'm confused how the J1 works with a 4-5 year residency.
I talked to a resident (Dr. Kamyab) who graduated from UofT St.George and went to Ross. He's currently doing his residency in General Surgery at the Mayo clinic.
He's a canadian obviously who had to deal with the J1 visa thing. He said it would be great if you could get H1 visa, but most of the times (99%) you'll have to get the J1.
The J1 visa is valid for 5 years and his residency program is also 5 years.
Also, after he graduates, if he gets hired by a hospital or something in the US, he can apply for the greencard and then become a resident of US.
There are tons of governmental offices who support engineers etc like Caltrans in california hires many canadians every year and these people then apply for a greencard. Now imagine if you are surgeon/physician and a huge demand for you to get hired in various hospitals in the US.
I agree with your position on compensation. I was told that there are pay caps for primary care doctors in Canada...is that true?
I think they removed the cap a while back (at least for primary care). But since you work for the government basically, you don't have to pay for insurance and stuff so...
mario345
10-04-2009, 11:42 PM
I agree with your position on compensation. I was told that there are pay caps for primary care doctors in Canada...is that true?
actually, FP is MUCH better in canada than states generally, because like all commonwealth countries, the emphasis is put on preventive medicine.
however, the oppurtunities for specialized care are limited and all of them are through the government...so even as a specialist, you are a government employee :)
i know for a fact that i would specialize in something...not because i dont like IM or FP (infact, i truly respect primary care), but because i want to master one area of medicine, know it really well, and call it my niche...instead of playing jack of all trades...and knowing 'lil of that and lil of this'
for that, no thanks to canada...the oppurtunities for fellowships in canada are laughable...:mrgreen: (its hard to get into good IM fellowships in U.S. as well...but atleast there ARE oppurtunities)
Mourning Cloak
10-05-2009, 12:53 PM
I talked to a resident (Dr. Kamyab) who graduated from UofT St.George and went to Ross. He's currently doing his residency in General Surgery at the Mayo clinic.
He's a canadian obviously who had to deal with the J1 visa thing. He said it would be great if you could get H1 visa, but most of the times (99%) you'll have to get the J1.
The J1 visa is valid for 5 years and his residency program is also 5 years.
Also, after he graduates, if he gets hired by a hospital or something in the US, he can apply for the greencard and then become a resident of US.
Sounds good. But how does he get around the Two-year Home-Country Physical Presence Requirement?
Sounds good. But how does he get around the Two-year Home-Country Physical Presence Requirement?
you can get a J1 visa waiver after you finish your residency.
http://www.valuemd.com/canadian-img/20032-j1-waiver-canadian-imgs-important.html
I think eventually you will have to apply for a greencard and become a US citizen (i.e. you need to give up your canadian citizenship)...am I right?
Mourning Cloak
10-05-2009, 01:18 PM
you can get a J1 visa waiver after you finish your residency.
OK, help! I don't get it.
You may be eligible to apply for a waiver for the foreign residence requirement if:
You have a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident spouse or child and you can provide evidence that returning to your country would impose exceptional hardship on your spouse or child.
Doesn't apply.
You cannot return to your country because you would be subject to persecution because of your race, religion, or political opinion.
Doesn't apply.
A U.S. government agency requests a waiver directly from the Bureau of Consular Affairs for you because you are engaged in a project of official interest to the agency.
Is this the one to use? Which agencies would be the ones that would make this request? This sounds like atom cracking for the DOD!
Your country provides a written statement to the director of the Bureau of Consular Affairs stating that your country has no objection to a waiver. (If you came to the United States as an exchange visitor to receive graduate medical education or training, you are ineligible to receive a waiver on this ground.)
Isn't this a problem?
And does the Statement of Need for the J1 in the first place come from Canada, or does it come from the province?
And is the list of Needed Specialties fairly broad, and similar year-to-year (e.g. you can specialize is pretty much whatever you want) or not? Has anybody seen the Needed Specialties lists? Does it differ province to province (I would be Ontario)?
OK, help! I don't get it.
You may be eligible to apply for a waiver for the foreign residence requirement if:
You have a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident spouse or child and you can provide evidence that returning to your country would impose exceptional hardship on your spouse or child.
Doesn't apply.
You cannot return to your country because you would be subject to persecution because of your race, religion, or political opinion.
Doesn't apply.
A U.S. government agency requests a waiver directly from the Bureau of Consular Affairs for you because you are engaged in a project of official interest to the agency.
Is this the one to use? Which agencies would be the ones that would make this request? This sounds like atom cracking for the DOD!
Your country provides a written statement to the director of the Bureau of Consular Affairs stating that your country has no objection to a waiver. (If you came to the United States as an exchange visitor to receive graduate medical education or training, you are ineligible to receive a waiver on this ground.)
Isn't this a problem?
And does the Statement of Need for the J1 in the first place come from Canada, or does it come from the province?
And is the list of Needed Specialties fairly broad, and similar year-to-year (e.g. you can specialize is pretty much whatever you want) or not? Has anybody seen the Needed Specialties lists? Does it differ province to province (I would be Ontario)?
This is the one:
A U.S. government agency requests a waiver directly from the Bureau of Consular Affairs for you because you are engaged in a project of official interest to the agency.
If you finish your residency successfully, you'll get hired by a hospital/private health company or whatever and they will do this for you.
All you need to do is to get a letter from the government of Canada which isn't a problem. They give it to you easily nowadays according to the Ross graduate I talked to. Apparently, as of 2005, they changed the rules and give out these letters to foreign MD's.
Someone on this thread said the specialties in need in Ontario are mostly FM, IM, and Emergency MD.
By the way, the link I sent here is kinda outdated. Getting the letter from Canada used to be a problem; it's not anymore.
(Imagine in the old times, Canada wouldnt let you get into an MD school, and then after you left Canada and finished your residency in the US, Canada wouldnt give you this letter and you had to come back to Canada for 2 years (doing nothing!) and then going back to US to start practicing!!! I don't know what the government used to think! but thankfully they changed the rules) ... oh canada!
Mourning Cloak
10-05-2009, 01:57 PM
Thanks! Very helpful.
Thanks! Very helpful.
yup... the whole process seems pretty complicated and scary! But it's doable... that's the whole point. As long as I know it's doable now, I'll worry about the details later on...
atropine
10-05-2009, 05:14 PM
however, the oppurtunities for specialized care are limited and all of them are through the government...so even as a specialist, you are a government employee :)
The government doesn't employ doctors in Canada...well, beyond special positions for Health Canada, and the like.
mario345
10-05-2009, 05:39 PM
The government doesn't employ doctors in Canada...well, beyond special positions for Health Canada, and the like.
it does, because the doctor has to bill to the government to earn...of course a doctor can move around his office and practise where he wants (in that sense he's not 'emplyed'), but his compensation is dependant on the government.
a specialist does not directly bill the patient...he gets a pre-determined fee (as set for that consultation/referral) from Health Canada...so in essense, they are 'employed' by the govt...as the money is coming out of the government, not the patient or the patient's insurance company...
the only healthcare professionals in ontario that take private insurance (sunlife, etc) are dentists...cardiologits, surgeons, dermatologists cant...
atropine
10-09-2009, 02:41 PM
it does, because the doctor has to bill to the government to earn...of course a doctor can move around his office and practise where he wants (in that sense he's not 'emplyed'), but his compensation is dependant on the government.
Ha ha ha, so how does this differ from a private practice who bills to insurance companies to earn? By your logic, that means they're employed by the insurance companies too? :rolleyes:
mario345
10-09-2009, 04:17 PM
Ha ha ha, so how does this differ from a private practice who bills to insurance companies to earn? By your logic, that means they're employed by the insurance companies too? :rolleyes:
i dont understand what is so funny?
you have much more control over billing to a private insurance company versus billing to your government AFTER a referral from the family physician.
secondly, in canada, a specialist is a specialist and DEPENDANT on referrals; vs in states, you open up your shop and patient is treated like a customer - if they want to see a cardiologist, they will see a cardiologist. if they want to see a dermatologist and NOT the FP for their psoriasis they will the dermatologist, they dont 'permission' from the FP.
And also, a private doctor does not HAVE to take insurance - they bill the patient, if the patient wants to pay out of pocket, then that works too (many well-off people pay for their own care, and because of this, they are given priority by the docs).
lastly, there is a huge difference between the actual re-imbursement amount from a private insurance company vs the government. i will give the example of an anesthesia doc whom i worked with...
they get paid by blocks...each induction is 4 blocks, and then each 15 minutes counts as 1 block.
for general surgery procedures...
1 block = 12 dollars by medicaid [an analogous example of a government run 'free' healthcare system - way behind canadian system, but still], and MINIMUM 35 dollars by a private insurance company. Obs/Gyn, cardiothoracic, neuroanesthesia, and obs gyn anesthesia obviously pays more than that.
you do the math.
i will leave it at that.
atropine
10-10-2009, 01:09 PM
i dont understand what is so funny?
you have much more control over billing to a private insurance company versus billing to your government AFTER a referral from the family physician.
secondly, in canada, a specialist is a specialist and DEPENDANT on referrals; vs in states, you open up your shop and patient is treated like a customer - if they want to see a cardiologist, they will see a cardiologist. if they want to see a dermatologist and NOT the FP for their psoriasis they will the dermatologist, they dont 'permission' from the FP.
OK....so you are saying insurance companies in the US don't put restrictions on what kinds of doctors they can see and what procedures they can get? Not according to friends of mine in the US. Regardless, I don't see how this makes somebody 'employed by the government'. Do you think specialists are starving for patients in Canada?
lastly, there is a huge difference between the actual re-imbursement amount from a private insurance company vs the government. i will give the example of an anesthesia doc whom i worked with...
they get paid by blocks...each induction is 4 blocks, and then each 15 minutes counts as 1 block.
for general surgery procedures...
1 block = 12 dollars by medicaid [an analogous example of a government run 'free' healthcare system - way behind canadian system, but still], and MINIMUM 35 dollars by a private insurance company. Obs/Gyn, cardiothoracic, neuroanesthesia, and obs gyn anesthesia obviously pays more than that.
So because Medicare doesn't pay much, you think the Canadian system is the same? Not quite...Anesthesiologists up here make the same as their US counterparts - about 400k/year plus or minus 50k depending on location, practice environment, etc. In fact, as an American working in a setting like emergency medicine is even worse. Half your patients aren't insured and you are being forced to work for free to help them.
But bottom line, just because you bill from one insurer hardly makes you 'employed' by that group! You have just as much freedom, if not more, in Canada to work how you please. In the US, you have to deal with the mess of uninsured patients, patients with insurance that doesn't cover XYZ problem, insurance that will only let you do some procedures every X years, etc. My friend's dad in Arizona has had a little bit of cardiac issues recently, and his insurance company wouldn't let his doctor do a coronary CTA, so he had to go to the cath lab instead.
What a headache.
mario345
10-10-2009, 02:59 PM
you are obviously missing the point...and its laughable that you think that 400 K in U.S. is somehow 'equivalent' to 400K in canada...(or any amount of numerically equivalent salary)...
you forgot a sales tax of around 15% and an income tax of close to 40% and the exchange rate...haha...
again...you can do the math in your spare time :)
as for your friend's father not being able to get the procedure of choice is not a big enough sample size to make an inference about insurance companies. however, thats too bad. but, the good thing is that he atleast had the option of getting a CTA (he would have to pay out of pocket, but hey! the possibility exists)!
try doing that in canada where healthcare is DICTATED to you and YOU as a patient always loses to 'WE the canadians cannot be doing expensive procedures just because they have 10% better yield"
its this exact mentality of the cdn healthcare system which i hate!
and by the way, i know that clinical rotations expose caribbean students to downtown run down hospitals with mostly a medicaid and medicare population; and that may have led you to believe that its a nightmare and a headache...however, thats a very narrow way of looking at things as there are nicer areas that have patients with insurance.
no one has been able to prove to me yet this notion that canada is apparently better for doctors (and by canada, i mean GTA, calgary, edmonton, and vancouver ONLY - the rest of the areas are in no competition with U.S.). there is no concrete data that suggests that. for every 8 doctors trained in canada, 1 goes down to states...i cant really say that its true the other way around ;)
atropine
10-10-2009, 07:13 PM
We're comparing compensation, not the taxation or other factors surrounding living in each country. I find it amusing when you throw out hyperbole like 'healthcare is dictated' , when the opposite is true. That happens more in the United States with cost-controlling insurance companies. Physicians up north just do and bill whatever they feel is appropriate for patients, and by and large the only things that they get are annual letters reviewing their billing practices as compared to their colleagues. Are you aware of any of this, because it sounds like you're basing your opinion on right-wing propagandist literature. But can you provide me with some examples where health care is dictated in Canada? Becuase I can give you lots of extra examples in the US. I mean, the brilliant insurance companies in the US denied a coronary CTA in favour of an angio, when the former is less invasive, safer, and actually cheaper!
As for the brain drain, well things have actually changed a lot over the past 5-10 years as compensation has improved in many areas. I know an EP who moved up north and is making more in Canada now, even after consideration for taxes and the exchange rate.
Of course, I should be agreeing with you. The fewer Canadians who want to apply for residency back home, the better for me. Don't come back! It sucks in Canada, and you will be told what you can and can't do, what patients you can see, and where you can work by the government! :)
of course, i should be agreeing with you. The fewer canadians who want to apply for residency back home, the better for me. Don't come back! It sucks in canada, and you will be told what you can and can't do, what patients you can see, and where you can work by the government! :)
ok :).....
In the US, you have to deal with the mess of uninsured patients, patients with insurance that doesn't cover XYZ problem, insurance that will only let you do some procedures every X years, etc. My friend's dad in Arizona has had a little bit of cardiac issues recently, and his insurance company wouldn't let his doctor do a coronary CTA, so he had to go to the cath lab instead.
What a headache.
I used to work in TGH for 2 years, and I would see patients who couldnt receive treatments ON TIME and had to go to US and pay from the pocket to receive treatment... at least in the US, you PAY and receive the treatment if you have money...here you don't even have that choice!
atropine
10-10-2009, 08:13 PM
I used to work in TGH for 2 years, and I would see patients who couldnt receive treatments ON TIME and had to go to US and pay from the pocket to receive treatment... at least in the US, you PAY and receive the treatment if you have money...here you don't even have that choice!
Yeah I agree that sucks and there are issues with both our health care systems. But our argument was about autonomy. To say that Canadian doctors are forced to do what the government wants is an absolute farce, especially when the insurance companies in the US have the right to refuse payments under so many circumstances, and tell their doctors how to care for patients if they want to have their billings approved. Also there are certain clinical guidelines that I know ER docs have to follow in certain states/hospitals which makes them follow cookie-cutter protocols and explain any circumstance where they deviate from that protocol. Then of course there's also the lawsuit-crazy culture which is telling doctors how to treat patients to avoid getting sued, which doesn't always coincide with what is best for them. EG: There's literature that says physicians are getting sued less for giving tPA to stroke patients (and risking intracranial bleeds) than withholding it. Some ER docs are using that to dictate how they practice, even in scenarios when it really isn't in the best interest of the patient to be getting tPA.
In BC there is a cap for family physicians of 50 patients/day. Beyond that you only get 50% of your regular billings. But to be honest, if you're seeing more than 50 patients in a day you probably aren't spending enough time with each of them to be giving proper care.
Yeah I agree that sucks and there are issues with both our health care systems. But our argument was about autonomy. To say that Canadian doctors are forced to do what the government wants is an absolute farce, especially when the insurance companies in the US have the right to refuse payments under so many circumstances, and tell their doctors how to care for patients if they want to have their billings approved. Also there are certain clinical guidelines that I know ER docs have to follow in certain states/hospitals which makes them follow cookie-cutter protocols and explain any circumstance where they deviate from that protocol. Then of course there's also the lawsuit-crazy culture which is telling doctors how to treat patients to avoid getting sued, which doesn't always coincide with what is best for them. EG: There's literature that says physicians are getting sued less for giving tPA to stroke patients (and risking intracranial bleeds) than withholding it. Some ER docs are using that to dictate how they practice, even in scenarios when it really isn't in the best interest of the patient to be getting tPA.
In BC there is a cap for family physicians of 50 patients/day. Beyond that you only get 50% of your regular billings. But to be honest, if you're seeing more than 50 patients in a day you probably aren't spending enough time with each of them to be giving proper care.
well the point is that neither health care system is perfect... but for those who :hail: canadian system and think it's perfect, well its not!
My family doc used to spend less than 10min with each patient... but did the government care? no!
Mourning Cloak
10-10-2009, 09:00 PM
As for the brain drain, well things have actually changed a lot over the past 5-10 years as compensation has improved in many areas.
It's incredible how money changes things. Newfoundland (St. John's) was something like 6-8 MDs short in their pathology department; they increased their annual compensation to ~$350K and guess what - no more shortages exist. They've filled all those jobs.
Of course, I should be agreeing with you. The fewer Canadians who want to apply for residency back home, the better for me.
Are you matching this year (2010)? This year looks pretty good - the quota for IMGs is almost as high as it was last year.
mario345
10-10-2009, 09:12 PM
"We're comparing compensation, not the taxation or other factors surrounding living in each country. "
-Even 6th graders know that NET compensation = gross - taxes.
I should not have to waste time with someone who doesnt understand these simple things. Compensation is WHAT you take home. Obviously its dependant on what you take away from it. :eek::eek::eek: Otherwise you can make two million dollars and pay 100% taxes, but despite having a higher 'compensation' I would be richer with my 10 dollar a hour job and 20% tax. I hope you get the picture.
"I find it amusing when you throw out hyperbole like 'healthcare is dictated' , when the opposite is true."
- I find it MORE amusing that someone doesn't understand the concept of 'choice'. Perhaps you have been living in Canada for too long to actually know what it means.
"That happens more in the United States with cost-controlling insurance companies. Physicians up north just do and bill whatever they feel is appropriate for patients, and by and large the only things that they get are annual letters reviewing their billing practices as compared to their colleagues."
-You cannot possibly speak of 'what happens' in U.S. based on your friends uncles experience. U.S. is not some homogenous piece of land - its 12 times the size of Canada. You should use ALL that your epidemiology skills to make an educated inference, NOT base your opinion on a ridiculous anecdote. Doctors in U.S. are more aggressive in patient care than anywhere else. Do you really think that they are afraid of not ordering a CBC because insurance wont pay for it?! LOL. They are more afraid of the fact that IF THEY DON'T, they will get sued!
Lastly, your friends uncles (or your mother neices sisters brother father, or whoever) experience does NOT mean that ALL U.S. insurance companies are like that. You are painting a VERY rosy picture of doctors in Canada, which is quite ridiculous. Outpatient MRI wait time of 9 months :D. GI-Hepatology wait time for 6 months! hahaha And I am talking about Toronto. Only God knows what its like in Nunavut - the patients probably get shipped to Russia. Wait times to see a specialist are ridiculous.
Canadian doctors are under this umbrella of 'protection' that because they dont have insurance companies riding their a**, so they can take it easy, and can be 'safe'. That breeds incompetency. Perhaps that what you aspire to be 'take it easy, do what I want without checks....hmmmmmmmm'! Yeah run to Canada because you are afraid of insurance companies! lol
Insurance companies and Lawyers, no matter how much docs hate them - keep a check on us. And very RARELY a doctor gets sued (dependant on specialty). You must be reading a lot of U.S. trashy newspapers where doctor's messed up and got sued, however, in order for a doctor to get sued, a LOT of things have to transpire. Its not that easy! and most doctors NEVER get sued in their lifetime. However, everyone like to blow it up. However, as a patient I would take that freedom to sue a doctor in case something happens than live with a life-altering mistake without any consequences to the physician.
"Are you aware of any of this, because it sounds like you're basing your opinion on right-wing propagandist literature."
-I dont read right wing propagandist literature. Nor do I have a poster of Michael Moore in my bedroom. However, I am not ignorant either.
"But can you provide me with some examples where health care is dictated in Canada? Becuase I can give you lots of extra examples in the US. I mean, the brilliant insurance companies in the US denied a coronary CTA in favour of an angio, when the former is less invasive, safer, and actually cheaper!"
-Good for you. You can find examples of dictated healthcare in Canada as well yourself. Because if you are trying to tell me that you could not find well-documented criticisms on Cdn healthcare, then I find that hilarious. Look hard. Its all there. :)
"As for the brain drain, well things have actually changed a lot over the past 5-10 years as compensation has improved in many areas. I know an EP who moved up north and is making more in Canada now, even after consideration for taxes and the exchange rate."
-For the last time, I dont care who you know, who your friends uncle is, and etc. Its NOT a statistic. I can tell you that my aunt went for her hand surgery at TGH, and they accidentally dissected the median nerve. She was in SEVERE pain and couldnt work for 1 year and ended up recieving only 20K. Thats what happens when you have government run healthcare, and no insurance companies riding you. Doctors take it easy, are laid back and believe that they are free to do what they want with no 'side effects'.
"Of course, I should be agreeing with you. The fewer Canadians who want to apply for residency back home, the better for me. Don't come back! It sucks in Canada, and you will be told what you can and can't do, what patients you can see, and where you can work by the government! :)"
-You can agree with me or disagree with me - I dont really care or think of posters on VMD as people of any significance.
But FYI, darling, I can live and work in both countries. And I would not want to go back to Canada even if you paid me. And your chances of matching there are pretty slim as well, as ONLY 13 people matched into Canada from Saba in 2009 (DOWN from 16 in 2008). Only one person matched in IM from Saba at UT. What a joke...lol
I dont know what kind a person would look at these stats and say 'OH WOW! RESIDENCY IN CANADA LOOKS PROMISING." You must be a true patriot! hehhehehe...You can check that yourself if you can get a hold of the match lists Saba used to put out on the old website.
13 people matching out of a class which has more that 50% of its graduates as Cdn. :D:D:D:D:?
The rest of what you wrote is pretty much gibberish, and doesnt make any sense.
prettysmart
10-10-2009, 10:43 PM
But FYI, darling, I can live and work in both countries. And I would not want to go back to Canada even if you paid me. And your chances of matching there are pretty slim as well, as ONLY 13 people matched into Canada from Saba in 2009 (DOWN from 16 in 2008). Only one person matched in IM from Saba at UT. What a joke...lol
I dont know what kind a person would look at these stats and say 'OH WOW! RESIDENCY IN CANADA LOOKS PROMISING." You must be a true patriot! hehhehehe...You can check that yourself if you can get a hold of the match lists Saba used to put out on the old website.
13 people matching out of a class which has more that 50% of its graduates as Cdn. :D:D:D:D:?
The rest of what you wrote is pretty much gibberish, and doesnt make any sense.
If you believe the Canadian Health system sucks, that explains why the number of Saba Canadian match down from 16 to 13 because many of them feel the same way you feel.
The lower of numbers should not be misinterpreted as "residency in Canada does not look promising"!
mario345
10-10-2009, 11:59 PM
If you believe the Canadian Health system sucks, that explains why the number of Saba Canadian match down from 16 to 13 because many of them feel the same way you feel.
The lower of numbers should not be misinterpreted as "residency in Canada does not look promising"!
first of all, we expect the numbers to go UP...because every year more and more cdns flea to saba...the 2008 residency list included people who started in 03-04...if you believe that every year more cdns go down to saba, it would make sense that the people who started in 04-05 and matched in 2009, should take up more than 16 spots that they secured in 2008! however, instead of the expected number being more than 16, it went down to 13...
i dont know how that enables anyone to conclude that saba provides a good chances to match into canada...
i dont understand what you meant by lower numbers should not be misinterpreted as residency in canada does not look promising.
well that doesnt make any sense...if you are getting lower numbers than what you achieved before, given that more applicants tried...it means that residency in canada does NOT look promising...
prettysmart
10-11-2009, 12:09 AM
what else can it mean? :?
It means "Residency in Canada still looks promising" for Saba students except Saba's Canadian students choose to go to United States instead of staying in Canada.
nydoc70
10-11-2009, 12:10 AM
Ha ha ha, so how does this differ from a private practice who bills to insurance companies to earn? By your logic, that means they're employed by the insurance companies too? :rolleyes:
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mario345
10-11-2009, 12:18 AM
It means "Residency in Canada still looks promising" for Saba students except Saba's Canadian students choose to go to United States instead of staying in Canada.
i edited my earlier post.
it is true that a lot of cdns do match in U.S...BUT a significant amount every year applies for canada...
it seems odd that every year you have more and more cdns, meaning more and more applications for residency in canada...so from 16 in 2008, you would expect that number to go up...granted all other variables stay the same...
it has NOT happened...
cdn students need to familiarize themselves with reality here...and get off this percieved notion that matching into canada is 'doable'....
It's incredible how money changes things. Newfoundland (St. John's) was something like 6-8 MDs short in their pathology department; they increased their annual compensation to ~$350K and guess what - no more shortages exist. They've filled all those jobs.
.
my friend who is an engineer receives a higher salary than others in his company because he spends the highest number of weeks in the abroad offices... the company pays him more to compensate for the comfort he has to sacrifice and the rest...
The same story goes with living in St. John's. Now you may have been grown up there and love Newfoundland (and I respect your perspective) but honestly let's face it. You have to pay higher salaries to attract MD's from the rest of the place... I wouldnt let go of practicing in Toronto or Ottawa to live up north with the same amount of money I make back in Toronto or Ottawa.
We've learnt the cost-benefit concept pretty good in biology so I don't understand why it's so hard to accept it for people as well!
i edited my earlier post.
it is true that a lot of cdns do match in U.S...BUT a significant amount every year applies for canada...
it seems odd that every year you have more and more cdns, meaning more and more applications for residency in canada...so from 16 in 2008, you would expect that number to go up...granted all other variables stay the same...
it has NOT happened...
cdn students need to familiarize themselves with reality here...and get off this percieved notion that matching into canada is 'doable'....
I agree with you, but matching in Canada is certainly 'doable'. But I think there is point that is being missed out here. First of all, 'doable' doesnt mean that everyone can make it! There is a degree to the magnitude of being 'doable' thing that we are talking about here!
Secondly, not all the Cdn applicants are on the same page. Regardless of the test scores and gpa and this and that, there are many canadians who start Saba with MSc or PhD. These people have made connections back home and have an easier time matching in Canada (in theory at least). Or not just due to the connections, but also the fact that having a grad. level degree puts you ahead of everyone else for matching. (and all the research you've done!).
Long story short, for those who only consider the Canada option, think twice! Have a backup plan, and if you can't make it to Canada, it's not the end of the world. There is always ways to go abck, and even if you cant, living in the US is not like living in a 3rd world country. US has better life standards, better opportunities, nicer weather if you care depending on where you practice, etc.
And dealing with insurance companies isnt that bad! At least in the US you have the option to treat a poor patient for free (you paying the costs from your pocket) and receive that immense sense of satisfaction, while in Canada you can't do that! You cant treat a patient for free :p haha
atropine
10-11-2009, 04:17 AM
"We're comparing compensation, not the taxation or other factors surrounding living in each country. "
-Even 6th graders know that NET compensation = gross - taxes.
I should not have to waste time with someone who doesnt understand these simple things. Compensation is WHAT you take home. Obviously its dependant on what you take away from it. :eek::eek::eek: Otherwise you can make two million dollars and pay 100% taxes, but despite having a higher 'compensation' I would be richer with my 10 dollar a hour job and 20% tax. I hope you get the picture.
If you work at ANY job in Canada with a similar income, you will pay the same taxes. The point is, we're comparing the actual compensation at the employer-level for the job. When people report their income, they don't deduct income tax first. If you want to compare which country has a lower cost of living, then you may have a point. But we are talking about physician compensation. Get the two ideas separated.
"I find iit MORE amusing that someone doesn't understand the concept of 'choice'. Perhaps you have been living in Canada for too long to actually know what it means.
Haha, ok we're going in circles. About the only 'choice' you can have is to accept patients who don't have insurance, which is a rare breed indeed. Otherwise you're being pigeonholed into accepting whatever the insurance company will let you bill for. At least up north you don't worry about what is necessary for your patient.
You cannot possibly speak of 'what happens' in U.S. based on your friends uncles experience. U.S. is not some homogenous piece of land - its 12 times the size of Canada. You should use ALL that your epidemiology skills to make an educated inference, NOT base your opinion on a ridiculous anecdote.
Sorry, how about we just use common sense and avoid the examples. We all know how the insurance companies work in the United States and restrict access to care, minimize claims at all possible costs, and dictate which hospitals you can go to, which doctors you can see, what tests can be ordered, etc.
Doctors in U.S. are more aggressive in patient care than anywhere else. Do you really think that they are afraid of not ordering a CBC because insurance wont pay for it?! LOL. They are more afraid of the fact that IF THEY DON'T, they will get sued!
You are comparing a coronary CTA to a CBC? Kinda grasping for straws eh?
Outpatient MRI wait time of 9 months :D. GI-Hepatology wait time for 6 months! hahaha And I am talking about Toronto. Only God knows what its like in Nunavut - the patients probably get shipped to Russia. Wait times to see a specialist are ridiculous.
Hey thanks for the strawman argument. I'm pretty sure we were talking about physician autonomy, not patient access to care.
Canadian doctors are under this umbrella of 'protection' that because they dont have insurance companies riding their a**, so they can take it easy, and can be 'safe'. That breeds incompetency. Perhaps that what you aspire to be 'take it easy, do what I want without checks....hmmmmmmmm'! Yeah run to Canada because you are afraid of insurance companies! lol
Sure, or go ahead and push tPA for that 95 year old man with an INR of 1.5, + fine needle biopsy of Ca., 2 units of blood the day before due to bleeding, signs of some old subdurals on CT etc. because you're more afraid of lawyers. Yeah, that's what those "checks" are for right?
Insurance companies and Lawyers, no matter how much docs hate them - keep a check on us. And very RARELY a doctor gets sued (dependant on specialty). You must be reading a lot of U.S. trashy newspapers where doctor's messed up and got sued, however, in order for a doctor to get sued, a LOT of things have to transpire. Its not that easy! and most doctors NEVER get sued in their lifetime. However, everyone like to blow it up. However, as a patient I would take that freedom to sue a doctor in case something happens than live with a life-altering mistake without any consequences to the physician.
You should look up the term 'frivolous lawsuit'. It's thrown around a lot, I know. People get sued in Canada too, and must be diligent in their care; they just don't have as many frivolus lawsuits to worry about. Just think of the tPA scenario above, where PAPERS have been published telling doctors what to do to not get sued, even if it's a bad idea for the patient. That kind of stuff doesn't happen here, and that's the kind of lawsuits which you have to deal with. And if you think doctors in the US don't get sued, I don't know what planet you're on. My own experience with the US is mostly with emergency physicians, and almost every one of them gets sued at least once in their career, if not more. And they are usually not due to malpractice.
-Good for you. You can find examples of dictated healthcare in Canada as well yourself. Because if you are trying to tell me that you could not find well-documented criticisms on Cdn healthcare, then I find that hilarious. Look hard. Its all there. :)
Hey another strawman. We were talking about physician autonomy, not general criticisms of the system. Keep on track. And we all know it sucks, but so does the US system. If you haven't figured it out yet, it doesn't have to do with the style of healthcare delivery, but everything to do with a system that is simply crumbling from the aging population. No system is sustainable in this environment.
mario345
10-11-2009, 10:30 AM
I agree with you, but matching in Canada is certainly 'doable'. But I think there is point that is being missed out here. First of all, 'doable' doesnt mean that everyone can make it! There is a degree to the magnitude of being 'doable' thing that we are talking about here!
Secondly, not all the Cdn applicants are on the same page. Regardless of the test scores and gpa and this and that, there are many canadians who start Saba with MSc or PhD. These people have made connections back home and have an easier time matching in Canada (in theory at least). Or not just due to the connections, but also the fact that having a grad. level degree puts you ahead of everyone else for matching. (and all the research you've done!).
im purely basing it on the numbers. those 13 who DID get in, probably all of them had connections. despite this, there were lesser numbers than the year before. and having a masters or phd doesnt really mean that you have connections. lets not talk about exam scores, GPAs, clinical rotations in canada because thats pretty much assumed that you are a competitive enough applicant to apply to canada.
and 'doable' in my books means a 'good chance'. Only 13 people matching out of 50 is NOT...lets say, saba graduates 180 students every year, 50% are cdn = 90 [even though there are more cdns than that]...and lets say, of that 90, about 60% apply [which is ALSO an underestimate] to canada...so 50 people applied...only 13 matched
13/50 is NOT good odds. infact its pathetic. its around 25%!!
how can ANYONE say that matching into canada is 'doable' with these numbers?
im purely basing it on the numbers. those 13 who DID get in, probably all of them had connections. despite this, there were lesser numbers than the year before. and having a masters or phd doesnt really mean that you have connections. lets not talk about exam scores, GPAs, clinical rotations in canada because thats pretty much assumed that you are a competitive enough applicant to apply to canada.
and 'doable' in my books means a 'good chance'. Only 13 people matching out of 50 is NOT...lets say, saba graduates 180 students every year, 50% are cdn = 90 [even though there are more cdns than that]...and lets say, of that 90, about 60% apply [which is ALSO an underestimate] to canada...so 50 people applied...only 13 matched
13/50 is NOT good odds. infact its pathetic. its around 25%!!
how can ANYONE say that matching into canada is 'doable' with these numbers?
anything beyond 5% is significant ;) ... 25% means 1/4th and its a big number...certainly big enough to call it 'doable'... but then I agree with you it'
s not easy and etc.
mario345
10-11-2009, 02:02 PM
^dude...25% is NOTHING compared to % matching as a saba student in U.S. residencies
Mourning Cloak
10-11-2009, 02:29 PM
You have to pay higher salaries to attract MD's from the rest of the place.
True enough . . . but it helps that Ontario is pretty much saturated with pathologists.
Newfoundland is the only place offering a comparable salary.
^dude...25% is NOTHING compared to % matching as a saba student in U.S. residencies
of course! but it's still 25% not 5% or 0%!
True enough . . . but it helps that Ontario is pretty much saturated with pathologists.
Newfoundland is the only place offering a comparable salary.
Good to know! Personally I wouldn't mind practicing in Newfoundland and enjoy the beautiful scenery besides work ... during the summer time ;)
atropine
10-11-2009, 02:59 PM
^dude...25% is NOTHING compared to % matching as a saba student in U.S. residencies
I agree with you that it's probably difficult, but I wonder why it is that every person I talked to who applied to Canadian residencies matched except one guy. That one guy applied in a year when the US match was first, so he had to accept the offer and withdraw from CaRMS. Now I obviously don't think 100% of people match who apply, but I do have a feeling it is higher than 25%.
But obviously you should not go to Saba expecting to ever match into Canada, but if it's what you want then you should at least put in an application and try for it, along with your US apps.
mario345
10-11-2009, 03:08 PM
of course! but it's still 25% not 5% or 0%!
lol...once you get to the stage when you are applying for residencies, you will appreicate more why these numbers are so important.
applying for a match is ALL about risks, probabality, and likelihood of you matching there. because IF you miss the match, you sit out a year (in canada). when you are a 4th year student with over 150K in loans AND ABSOLUTELY burnt out from medical school (travelling, doing rotations, scutting, applying, interviewing, etc etc etc - s**t never stops!), a lot of psychological factors go in your decision and you would be EXTREMELY foolish to apply to a place where AT best you have a 35% chance of matching.
its similar to anesthesia...35% of IMGs matched in U.S. in anesthesia. look at the NRMP reports which will show you why 25% is not just good enough...and anesthesia is one of the more competitive ones...its not a FP residency...thast what incresed number of spots does to a match...more oppurtunity = more chances of matching
in U.S., you can pretty much barely pass your usmles and get a FP residency [there are FP and psych residencies still open in states, because there is more supply vs. demand]. i cant possibly imagine FP residency spots being open in canada, coz there arent that many!. the competition is severe because canada is one twelfth the size of U.S. and the resources are just not there. you cant compare canada at the same scale as U.S.
if only 15% of my class was cdn, and there were 13 matches, i would be really impressed...but when you look at the numbers...it doesnt make sense to me.
for anyone to pin all their hopes on a canadian match given these numbers (and this years trend is a further example of that) is quite amazing and borderline foolish.
an equally good option is, instead of putting yourself through this hassle, go to U.S., get a FP residency and go back to canada (esp. ontario) if you are THAT hell bent on going back...
mario345
10-11-2009, 03:16 PM
I agree with you that it's probably difficult, but I wonder why it is that every person I talked to who applied to Canadian residencies matched except one guy. That one guy applied in a year when the US match was first, so he had to accept the offer and withdraw from CaRMS. Now I obviously don't think 100% of people match who apply, but I do have a feeling it is higher than 25%.
But obviously you should not go to Saba expecting to ever match into Canada, but if it's what you want then you should at least put in an application and try for it, along with your US apps.
the people who did not match will probably wont tell you that they did not match.
people tend to hide negative things and perpetrate positive aspects (med students, especially!)
anyhow, we will see how this years match goes.
the 2009 match was disappointing in canada as i said...13 this year with more canadian applying every year. when we were able to get 16 last year.
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