Tuition, Pass Rate, Clinical Rotations.

[technionstudent2020]

Hi,
I'm going to be at the Technion next year but I and a few of the new students are having second thoughts. We keep on hearing about these very big problems at the school, such as high failure rates, throwing students out of dorms, and raising tuition in middle of the year. Every time I ask some of the current students they will not give me any information or answer my questions. A few of them told me this is because if the school finds out that they were talking they will get kicked out.

After discussion with some of my fellow incoming class mates we decided to settle on a couple of very Important questions.

Is it true that in certain rotations the Doctors predecided to fail 60% of the class, even before the exam, and even bragged about it?

Is it true that in the class starting their clinical rotations this year they are all being sent to slum hospitals outside Haifa because the school wants to reserve all the good hospitals for the Israeli students?

Is it true that teachers commonly make racist jokes and comments in class, even to the point of using the N word :eek:?

Does the school really increase tuition in middle of the year?

Is cheating really a big problem in the school?

Only one student I spoke to told me that a lot of this is half truths, exagerations and distortions but he asked me not to use his name because he doesn't need trouble for him or his family. All the other students refused to even answer my questions and basicly told me you will have to wait and see.

If anyone can offer some constructive details that would be great.

[cuco2000]

I heard cheating was rampant...

[enwyse]

Is it true that in certain rotations the Doctors predecided to fail 60% of the class, even before the exam, and even bragged about it?

Exaggeration: I've never heard about any doctor bragging about trying to fail the class, nor have I ever seen "predecided grades". Grading of tests is based on the amount of questions on an exam, one doctor could not take an exam and just force 60% of the students to fail it.

Is it true that in the class starting their clinical rotations this year they are all being sent to slum hospitals outside Haifa because the school wants to reserve all the good hospitals for the Israeli students?


False: Only one group is being sent out of Haifa for the first set of rotations. They are in departments in very reputable hospitals. Students are sent to hospitals outside of Haifa for some rotations, this is a must as there aren't enough departments in the 3 major Haifa hospitals to house both american students and israeli students at once. I just finished my 3rd year and was happy with ALL of my rotations both inside and outside of Haifa. There are doctors that are eager to teach and many opportunities for both observing and doing. Rotations in different departments are rotated between both the american and israeli classes.

Is it true that teachers commonly make racist jokes and comments in class, even to the point of using the N word ?

I have never witnessed a teacher making a racist joke. As far as "the N word", there was an incident 3 yrs ago where a young EMT (who was at the school helping demonstrate CPR, not a member of the faculty) quoted a movie that used the N word. He was immediately told that it was inappropriate and apologized. The school has since changed the format of the class and the class is now run by an ER doctor.

Does the school really increase tuition in middle of the year?


The school announced a tuition raise for the 2008-2009 year during the 2007-2008 year. This was attributed to the sharp drop of the Dollar and for hiring of new staff.

Is cheating really a big problem in the school?


I haven't seen any cheating in my 3 years here. Though there are complaints about people hogging teachers and asking questions to try to get professors to help reveal things about the question.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

[Sanjay Orlov]

While I agree with some of what enwyse has stated below, I have inserted commentary or the actual emails from the school:

Is it true that in certain rotations the Doctors predecided to fail 60% of the class, even before the exam, and even bragged about it?

enwyse: Exaggeration: I've never heard about any doctor bragging about trying to fail the class, nor have I ever seen "predecided grades". Grading of tests is based on the amount of questions on an exam, one doctor could not take an exam and just force 60% of the students to fail it.

Sanjay: It is unlikely that the doctors are "predeciding" grades. They may very well be deciding the quota of students that they may fail per a given number of students taking an exam, but to me this is speculative. Preclinical years when people fail a test it tends to be about 3-5 students~10-18%. Clinical grades have been much better with only about 1 or 2 max failing.


Is it true that in the class starting their clinical rotations this year they are all being sent to slum hospitals outside Haifa because the school wants to reserve all the good hospitals for the Israeli students?


Enwyse: False: Only one group is being sent out of Haifa for the first set of rotations. They are in departments in very reputable hospitals. Students are sent to hospitals outside of Haifa for some rotations, this is a must as there aren't enough departments in the 3 major Haifa hospitals to house both american students and israeli students at once. I just finished my 3rd year and was happy with ALL of my rotations both inside and outside of Haifa. There are doctors that are eager to teach and many opportunities for both observing and doing. Rotations in different departments are rotated between both the american and israeli classes.


Sanjay: Your choice of words "slum" offends me. Israeli hospitals are not gleaming gold palaces, but they are not slums. The worst departments of some hospitals may look run down, but everything is relative. The hospitals are all very notable and reputable as enwyse has stated.

The technology at these hospitals is fine. Furthermore, it is the teaching staff that can make or break your clinical experience. You can take the best teaching hospital and ruin it by filling it with docs indifferent to your education.

that said- we share all sites with Israeli students.

Is it true that teachers commonly make racist jokes and comments in class, even to the point of using the N word ?

enwyse: I have never witnessed a teacher making a racist joke. As far as "the N word", there was an incident 3 yrs ago where a young EMT (who was at the school helping demonstrate CPR, not a member of the faculty) quoted a movie that used the N word. He was immediately told that it was inappropriate and apologized. The school has since changed the format of the class and the class is now run by an ER doctor.


Sanjay: I have in fact heard racist jokes. While I regard such statements as unprofessional, I would not say it will do much to harm your experience here unless you are particularly sensitive.
but, alas, there is a decent amount of so called un-p.c. material that you may hear over your 4 years, compared to the U.S.

Does the school really increase tuition in middle of the year?


enwyse:
The school announced a tuition raise for the 2008-2009 year during the 2007-2008 year. This was attributed to the sharp drop of the Dollar and for hiring of new staff.


sanjay: this response by enwyse bothered me. Below is the official email from the school:

"
Dear TeAMS Students

We would like to bring to your attention that tuition for next year will be $25,000 (US$).
The decision to raise tuition was received due to many reasons, some of which I will specify below.

As you are well aware the Dollar rates have gone down and thus a new tuition calculation is needed.
In addition, we are seeking to hire new additional academic staff, advisors and administrative staff for the program.

As other universities over the world and in Israel, we have also come to the conclusion that we need to raise tuition on a yearly basis, in order to progress forward and ensure that the students will be able to receive more administrative/ advisor support while maintaining the high level quality of teaching.

I wish you luck in your studies,"

Later, the class rep emailed the administration asking to have a meeting to discuss the tuition raise.

the reply was:
first pay, or you can leave.



- make of these what you will; that all i have to say on this matter.

Is cheating really a big problem in the school?


enwyse: I haven't seen any cheating in my 3 years here. Though there are complaints about people hogging teachers and asking questions to try to get professors to help reveal things about the question.

sanjay: cheating has been discussed. Frankly, the tests here are so ridiculous that while cheating could save students from failing an exam, in the long term it's not going to make or break you as a doctor, when your peers cheat on exams; reflects poorly on them, or the school for not preventing such acts.

enwyse: I hope this helps answer some of your questions.
sanjay" if you have more questions or comments please feel free to reply.

[dawkins]

technionstudent2020 -- I am also an incoming student with your concerns. I could spend a bunch of time polishing a response to each of your concerns based on the information I have gathered. I will keep it relatively short.

Yearly incremental tuition increases are normal at basically every medical school in America. Difference is that in America, the dean of Harvard Medical School would not tell you "pay or leave". In North America and specifically in Canada, we take politeness and niceties for granted. These formalities are almost completely absent from everyday life in Israel. Diplomacy is not always afforded to others in Israel. I can not imagine this reflects on the quality of education, but rather the normative mode of communication here. The flavor of the air is basically, "look, the Arabs are trying to wipe Israel off the map and you are trying to complain about $2000. Financial times were and are tough. Grow up or go home". Not to mention, after the tuition hike, Madoff flew off with $100 million of the Technion's money.

In America, what are our biggest concerns?

Is the driveway shoveled?
Is the grass mowed?
Did the maid finish ironing my shirt?
Should I take my 750 to the wash?
Mets or Yankees tonight?

In Israel, what are the biggest concerns?

Is Obama going to forcibly pressure Bibi to give away the Old City?
Is Ahmedinijad going to send nukes into Israel?
Will Israel exist in the 22nd century?
Why and how are Saudi oil sheiks buying up so much land in Israel?

Hopefully you get the point. We are worried about mundane issues in North America whereas Israel is confronted with survival on a daily basis.

You probably know that Ethiopia houses the most indigent Jewish community in the world. These Black Jews have been absorbed in large, albeit not large enough, numbers by Israel. It is safe to say that one unprofessional Israeli EMT does not represent the official voice of the Technion or Israelis. There are racist and bigoted people everywhere in our world.

Cheating is also everywhere. It is a byproduct of intensely competitive environments with lucrative compensation. You want to try and tell me there is no cheating at Harvard Medical School. Who are you kidding? If some shmuck is cheating on an exam, this really does not effect you. Said shmuck still has to pass his boards. More importantly, you and I both have to pass our boards. I would rather be last in the class with honest grades, than first in the class with dishonest grades any day of the week. It seems reasonable that hard-working honest people will study harder and will more likely achieve better scores on their boards.

Anyway, I know life is going to get really tough here as it would at any medical school. There is no need to make issues out of non-issues. There will be plenty of problems, that I am sure of, but nothing too difficult to overcome with a measured amount of discipline, effort, and hard work.