Ross Residencies Vs. St. George's Residencies

[domdom]

I just took a look at the residency placement list for St. Georges. I am shocked to see how much better their placements are in comparison to Ross. They have tons of ER, surgery, anesthiology, and other fields. They even have several orthopedics surgery and neurosurgery placements. Ross only have a handful of those same placements. Ross only gets like one or two orthopedic surgery placements and they celebrate that like its the biggest accomplishment in the world. I guess St. Georges is not just a little bit better than Ross but its more like ten steps above Ross. As a Ross student, I just became a little bit depressed with our residency placement list.

[A.H.]

It has more to do with the caliber of SGU students than it does the school. SGU is a better med school than Ross (I say that because SGU has a better clinical program), but the discrepancy in residencies is because SGU has better students than Ross. If you kick butt at Ross you'll get a good job. If you do poorly at SGU you won't get a good job. Its all about your individual performance, not your school.

[medic105]

A.H.

I dont agree with your comments. When you look at the clinical programs, both school are very much comparable. If you also speak with program directors, you would know that Both Ross and St. Georges are considered the same.... FORIEGN MED. SCHOOLS.. so what you need to do is come off your high horse and face the reality...... You will be an FMG just like he rest of us....

[stephew]

A.H.

I dont agree with your comments. When you look at the clinical programs, both school are very much comparable. If you also speak with program directors, you would know that Both Ross and St. Georges are considered the same.... FORIEGN MED. SCHOOLS.. so what you need to do is come off your high horse and face the reality...... You will be an FMG just like he rest of us....

In fact no, not all foreign medicals schools are viewed the same, as much as some people believe so. Program directors very much have their own impressions and biases. You'll note this is why, in part, you'll see clusters of students from one school at a hospital. Just as Harvard is not viewed on par with Crieghton (its in Nebraska if youre wondering) and the students dont get viewed equally, so it to a less degree admittedly, in the caribbean.

[Mo716]

You're going to become the doctor you were destined to be, regardless of where you went to school. No matter where you went to school, biochemistry is biochemistry and pathology is pathology. The Krebs Cycle works the same way at Ross as it does at St. George's or Harvard or UCLA or any other place. We can sit here talking about which school has a better program and which school has a better faculty, but we all know that the bottom line is that you get through med school on your own. I go to Ross, but this school isn't going to make me a doctor. I am going to make myself a doctor. The medical school you attend can do nothing more than make it all logistically possible.

That being said, it really doesn't matter where you went to school. The "M.D." behind your name is going to look the same regardless of where you cracked the books. And don't forget that we all take the same exact test that will make or break our medical careers. The reputation of your school is a moot point if you are a good med student, and you cannot hide behind it if you are a bad one.

[medic105]

Steph,

From what I know, and those that I have spoken to-- program directors in NY, Ross and St. Georges are considered the same.......

[bevo]

I believe the only time where that MD comes from matters is when you apply for residency.

Once you start practicing, it won't matter at all.

Just applying for the residencies that it does.

Is SGU better than Ross? No.

Would it improve your chances at getting a more competitive residency
if you want to SGU? Slightly or negligible.

Neither school will give you a leg up into getting into any sort of residency program.


You'll make more headway into getting the residency you want by 1) working your butt off and 2) making a favorable impression everywhere you go

[link626]

it seems that ross has a lower academic cut off (which is a good thing for some) when it comes to admissions. Those that barely make it through ross end up with "crappier" residencies.

The best ross students won't be denied better residencies. I suppose even a harvard C student will find it tough to get a top residency.

[stephew]

Steph,

From what I know, and those that I have spoken to-- program directors in NY, Ross and St. Georges are considered the same.......

and


being said, it really doesn't matter where you went to school. The "M.D." behind your name is going to look the same regardless of where you cracked the books. And don't forget that we all take the same exact test that will make or break our medical careers. The reputation of your school is a moot point if you are a good med student, and you cannot hide behind it if you are a bad one

respectfully I disagree. While obviously who you are as a student matters most considerably, its wishful thinking to say where you attend school doesnt matter. Same in the US and to a much greater degree. Ive been dealing with IMG education since I was a student at sgu back in the mid 1990's. Ive sat through several residency selection processes informally and formally. Like it or not, school matters. Its merely wishful thinking to say that where you graduated from in the caribbean is immaterial.
And I'm quite confident about this. But hey it could be worse; school matters even more if your a US grad.

Obviously most places will have folks who have gone beyond the boarders and done exceptionally well. But like a cancer patient who survives advanced disease, you accept this as a happy exception, not a rule.

And before someone gets hotheaded and stupidly assumes that I am ranking sgu and ross in some thinly veiled way, I assure you I am not. I dont accept the simplistic argument that one school is necessarily better than another. It depends upon the student's needs and i always encourage students to figure out the issues invovled with IMG education, figure themselves out and make an informed decision. Clearly some places are better for some folks than others. But is coming from one school the same as from another. No. People -that is program directors- do make distinctions.

I should add Bevo is bang on about one thing; this matters most at residency time. Not after nearly so much.

And yes the poor Johns hopkins students do get better residencies very often than some of the better loma linda folks. Ive seen it four times over now.

For those still reading, those things to know about a school:
1)usmle pass rate
2)percent who make it to their boards with their class
3)can you get a license in the state your interested in
4)do people seem to get the residencies you want/how competitive a residency do you want?
5)all rotations ACGME ok'd
6)in this context consider cost, life style, etc.

[teratos]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks2.jpg

[Zeock9]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks2.jpg

wahahahahahahha

nice picture!!

[IndianBabu]

Hahaha, hilarious!!!!!

IndianBabu

[A.H.]

I am a Ross student, first off.

Secondly, SGU does have a better clinical program than Ross. SGU has clinical centers, much like US med schools. Ross doesn't. That is a huge advantage in SGU's favor.

[jim]

yea, great pic there george. as for AH, dont forget, ross doesnt require people to tell their placements, and i know many who arenot on the lists. but steph hits the nail pretty much on the head. school does matter. i have sat in informally now on one rssidency app cycle, and i can tell you taht there are soem schools that my program will NEVER even consider you(and some of those ar US!). but for the most part, ross and sgu are considered teh same here.

[medic105]

Jim,

I am glad we have one person who agrees with what I have been saying. It seems that some students from st. george think that they are better than other carib students just because they are under the notion that they went to they top carribean school, which in my opinion, and this is just me, means nothing. We still have to take the USMLE and go through the same residency applications. St. Georges and Ross are considered the SAME, both are good schools that have proven to put out Great doctors.

[stephew]

both are good schools that have proven to put out Great doctors.

Medic, no one is arguing otherwise on this point.

[keithom]

OK,

I have sat by in the shadows, and need to throw my comments into the ring.
I will be quick.

1) It is my belief as is most everyone's. that the individual makes up the resident candidate. Doing well in medical school, on the boards, in clinicals etc. can only foster your chances of getting a good residency no matter where you are from.
2) I also believe that there exists 2 sets of applications to residency: FMG & US.
3) NOW, as a correlate to #2, to many program directors: There IS a difference between some Carribean schools. I know this, like Steph, as a first hand fact. Some program directors see St. Georges/Ross in the same boat, and all the rest of Carribean schools in another. Others, will ONLY look at applications from St. Georges if they are looking at Carrib. applications at all. This is reality. Just like Steph said, Harvard and loma linda are seen differently. I know some program directors who could only name 1 school located in the Carribean: St. Georges.
Lastly, times do change. 1 of our programs here use to only take Carribean applicants from St. Georges (if they took ANY FMG). For the first time this year they interviewed a Ross candidate. Maybe that has something to do with interactions with a Ross graduate, maybe not.
So, we are left with the harsh reality, that to many Ross lies in the shadows of St. Georges. But given the chance to interview both candidates, the stronger candidate will always win out.

I remember interviewing at the Yale orthopaedics program. The only FMG out of 50 total interviewed. I was sitting in the waiting room talking to one guy from Stamford, and the other a MD/PhD from Harvard. No interviewer asked me about being an FMG until the last room. He said: "I bet you are wondering how you got this interview." (I Had). He said, I don't care where you came from, your board scores are better than most of the people out there, and your letters of rec. are fantastic. Consider yourself on the same playing field as all the other applicants here." Ahhh. Justice does exist some places in the world. Keep your heads up, study hard.

-KeithOM, MD
Orthopaedic Surgical Resident
Rhode Island Hospital
Brown Medical School

[teratos]

Just ignore AUC.....

Anyway, there are a lot of program directors who have no experience with St. Georges and lots with Ross and AUC etc. I say this because these are the schools I have experience with. It is interesting that people from various schools tend to cluster in certain geographic regions. Depending on where you go, PDs will have experience from different schools. My residency progam has has various students from Ross and AUC throughout the years, but nobody from SGU. Many of the attendings have never hear of SGU. You will find the opposite is true in other areas.

BTW, this arguement is a complete waste of time and cyberspace. It is just a shallow excuse for school wars. The most important thing is how well YOU do on the boards, and how well YOU perform. G

[stephew]

Just ignore AUC.....

Anyway, there are a lot of program directors who have no experience with St. Georges and lots with Ross and AUC etc. I say this because these are the schools I have experience with. It is interesting that people from various schools tend to cluster in certain geographic regions. Depending on where you go, PDs will have experience from different schools. My residency progam has has various students from Ross and AUC throughout the years, but nobody from SGU. Many of the attendings have never hear of SGU. You will find the opposite is true in other areas.

BTW, this arguement is a complete waste of time and cyberspace. It is just a shallow excuse for school wars. The most important thing is how well YOU do on the boards, and how well YOU perform. G
Right, exactly my point. You wont be treated equally from every school at every program.

I think the question though is a fair one; the "yes it is!" "no its not!" back and forth is, as you a say a waste of time, energy and right now, chance for sleep. Its the same as the DO vs IMG fight; few care about objectivity and most use is as a way to boost "their" guy. My perinneal comparison is the old "Duran Duran vers Culture Club" wars of my teens. Its stupid. Cos everyone knows Duran Duran is far better.

[stephew]

OK,
I remember interviewing at the Yale orthopaedics program. The only FMG out of 50 total interviewed. I was sitting in the waiting room talking to one guy from Stamford, and the other a MD/PhD from Harvard. No interviewer asked me about being an FMG until the last room. He said: "I bet you are wondering how you got this interview." (I Had). He said, I don't care where you came from, your board scores are better than most of the people out there, and your letters of rec. are fantastic. Consider yourself on the same playing field as all the other applicants here." Ahhh. Justice does exist some places in the world. Keep your heads up, study hard.

The funny thing for me was when i sat at my interview, no one volunteered to even address that. Which is typical of my veddy veddy stiff upper lip group. I asked though and it was sort of the same reply; research, letters and fantastic interview.

I just took a job for my first attending position; I was told point blank they were very interested in my being an IMG because that I got this far shows I had "Something". So every now and then, the good will out.

Thanks for coming out of the shadows and posting here. IMGs need to know that they can be valued as much as US grads and rarely even, completely on a level ground.

[Ganja Magic]

I just took a job for my first attending position; I was told point blank they were very interested in my being an IMG because that I got this far shows I had "Something". So every now and then, the good will out.

Congrats!

Now don't be shy and tell us where...? :D

[teratos]

I just took a job for my first attending position; I was told point blank they were very interested in my being an IMG because that I got this far shows I had "Something".


Congrats. Just sit down when you open your first paycheck. I don't want you to fall over and hurt yourself...... G

[wildream]

I think this all talk about comparing schools is worthless when you, as a med student, can't score high enough on the USMLE to compete with American graduates. The question is not whether or not Ross is better viewed than St. George's or vise versa, the question is: which one has a trend for students who score higher on the USMLE. I think after all, the USMLE is what matters for residency.

[nyphys1]

I looked over the residency appointments from Ross and St Georges for the past few years,and there is little if any real difference in what to expect from these schools when it comes match time.The overwhelming majority go to FP and Internal Med at very similar hospitals in most cases the same exact ones.Its very rare to see Rads,Ortho,Optho,Urology at either school but both schools have several. There was urology,optho at Ross this year,and nerosurgery last year.If there were any rads or optho from St Georges this year I missed it.As far as residency goes its a wash between these school.Dont worry about anesthesiology..about 60 spots failed to match altogether,its not hard to get it someplace.

[stephew]

I think this all talk about comparing schools is worthless when you, as a med student, can't score high enough on the USMLE to compete with American graduates. The question is not whether or not Ross is better viewed than St. George's or vise versa, the question is: which one has a trend for students who score higher on the USMLE. I think after all, the USMLE is what matters for residency.

While the usmle is key, unforutantely, med students, and IMGs in particualr miss out on other very important things.
First of all, getting your eras application in, not just in time, but EARLY> Like in the first week. why? because regardless of what PDs say,. they start to download and look at applications as soon as they begin to take shape. In the first week, all the interview spaces are open. And they do start to peg people to fill them. By week two there are less and by half the season, far less. So a person with weaker numbers looks better sooner rather than later.

Second. research. particularly for the morecompetitive and specialty residencies. Why? It shows interest and ability and a sence that youre going to contribute to the field.

Finally, interview. Ive sat on a few residency selection committees now. I can tell you we've bumped people who are academic stars by the numbers off the list several times. The usual offenses; back biting other candidates (yes we see it when you think we can't), whiney, arrogent, playing people off of each other (for "bright people" a lot of them arent too bright) and general poor form. Alternately we've bumped people up the list for being what i can only describe and "gentlemanly" (pardon the sexist language but "ladylike" has the wrong connotation.) People who are caring, decent, nice to each other, and just plain likeable.

So yes worry about your boards, you get no where without them, but trust me, you have other things you need to worry about. And if you do it, there are lots of others who are happy to take your place.
Steph

[singer]

As I had brought up on this forum the Ross residency list for 2004 is not a complete list. Can't speak for the SGU list. There may very well be matches in other areas not on the current list.

[futuredoc]

Alternately we've bumped people up the list for being what i can only describe and "gentlemanly" (pardon the sexist language but "ladylike" has the wrong connotation.) People who are caring, decent, nice to each other, and just plain likeable.

Why did you bump them off?

[spatel0434]

Why did you bump them off?

Futuredoc,

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Those "gentlemenly" and "ladylike" candidates were bumped UP not OFF the list. In other words, they were rewarded (i.e. moved up from being the 5th choice to the 2nd choice), not punished.

I hope that clears it up. Please correct me if I'm wrong stephew.

[stephew]

Why did you bump them off?

Futuredoc,

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Those "gentlemenly" and "ladylike" candidates were bumped UP not OFF the list. In other words, they were rewarded (i.e. moved up from being the 5th choice to the 2nd choice), not punished.

I hope that clears it up. Please correct me if I'm wrong stephew.
right. moved up the list.

[anencephalic]

My perinneal comparison is the old "Duran Duran vers Culture Club" wars of my teens. Its stupid. Cos everyone knows Duran Duran is far better.

I dunno...Boy George could throw ***** LeBon in a boat and ***** would nearly drown himself...

Aloha,

[medNoir]

perinneal

"perennial" means "Lasting or active through the year or through many years"

"perineal" means "The portion of the body in the pelvis occupied by urogenital passages and the rectum"

[stephew]

perinneal

"perennial" means "Lasting or active through the year or through many years"

"perineal" means "The portion of the body in the pelvis occupied by urogenital passages and the rectum"

how very enlightening. Its actually a little known word meaning "an occupied portion of the urogenital passages, active throught the rectum and lasting for many years." But thanks for reading thoroughly.

[teratos]

If you are in the perineum perrennially, then you are likely to do pporly on your boards........Just a thought

[TaxiDriver]

I just took a look at the residency placement list for St. Georges. I am shocked to see how much better their placements are in comparison to Ross. They have tons of ER, surgery, anesthiology, and other fields. They even have several orthopedics surgery and neurosurgery placements. Ross only have a handful of those same placements. Ross only gets like one or two orthopedic surgery placements and they celebrate that like its the biggest accomplishment in the world. I guess St. Georges is not just a little bit better than Ross but its more like ten steps above Ross.

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/1989oldnews5.jpg

[michigander]

I think Ross makes a mistake signing up students the first couple weeks of the 5th for USMLE-1. With that done, they want you to take it in just a few weeks after completion of the 5th. I think it would be much better for the students to be able to take a lot more time and do a more thorough review for that important test. I have a friend that went to St. Georges, shes from St. Louis, and not a good student, However, with a 5 month intensive review she was able to score very high on that test. In fact, shes told me that most of those students take a long time off and study intensively for 4 to 6 months, then take the test. Its the same for Step 2 , im told. Point im making you cannot enter those really competitive fields mentioned above with just mediocre scores, its going to take a lot better in both Step 1 and Step 2 than just passing or an average score. She also told me that St. Georges make it a point to tell the students that a much more intensive review is need in order to achieve in those areas, and encourages the student to take the time and do so.

I feel Ross is just plain pushing too hard to get us thru that Step one in a rapid pace for what reason, im not for sure.

[stacy_de_lin]

Ross students have no choice about when they take their Step 1 after the 5th semester? I thought the students had the option of deciding, and then could submit their scores when they had decided to take it to be assigned clinicals. But my impression is that it was up to the students.

No?

Stac'

[babydaddy75]

I remember when we were in fourth we were told that the statistically your percent chance of passing step one after you leave the island drops as time goes by. Makes sense. The longer you are from your basic science the less you will remember. Provided you got a decent enough GPA and learned it the first time. Remember what the word REVIEW means here people. You should have allready learned the material and it shouldn't take you another 6 months to review it. My limited experience with my friends in my semester suggests the same thing as Ross's data. They might acctually know what they are doing when they encourage us to take it sooner rather then later. Perish the thought I know : ) :D

[stacy_de_lin]

They might acctually know what they are doing when they encourage us to take it sooner rather then later. Perish the thought I know : ) :D

But do they "encourage" or force you to take it at a certain date? I understand that it's better to take it shortly after school rather than say, sitting around for a couple of years first, however, if you feel that you could use an additional review course or some extra time, could you have the option? A perfect example is me with the MCAT-- I planned to take it in April, but wasn't ready and deferred until August. I would like to know that I have this option with the Step 1 as well.

Stac'

[MitchDC]

They don't ever force you to take it. They give you (or rather the ECFMG doe) a 3 month window period in which you should take it. Some students ask for an extension and are granted that by the University. Some ask for another extension and are granted that too. However, the University does have stats to show that the longer you wait the lower your chances of passing are. Another reason to get it over with is that you don't get any financial aid while you are studying.

MitchDC

[stacy_de_lin]

Gotcha. Thanks Mitch.

Did YOU feel like you were ready to take it when you did? I know that you just took your Step 1.

[bevo]

********* in our meeting here said the school is looking for ways to enfore people to take the test in that 5 month window. If you don't, you might lose you're choice in clinical spots. Have to take what is given to you. Or not allowing you to apply for the full amount of your financial aid.


He also said that something like ~300? people (a class and a half) in ross still haven't taken step 1 or passed step 1. These are the people who eligible to take step 1.

[michigander]

Hope Miami is going well for you.

Ross does push students to take the exam right after 5th. I mean soon. What my post is about isnt that you can extend it by a few weeks, its about the fact Ross doesnt encourage that kind of extension. You have to write a letter for a 30 day extention, then the next extension has to be for a good reason or you wont get it. On the other hand, George's you take it when you so please. I think Ross got some kind of "flow" problem and wants students to 'flow" thru the program not sidestep and cause problems in the overall running of their program in general.

I did get to know an Resident from George's quite well. Id have to say they are a walking Med Library. I dont know if all of them are, but this fellow took a 6 month study program I think 10 hr a day solid review for the program. Needless to say he scored very well and got a residency in those programs the write above questions why there is a lesser amount of us Ross students in. My point, is George's encourages it by encouraging a more thorough review for the USMlE in which the students score better than us. I dont have any data, do you? Im told by this fellow from George's that is the reason they achieve moreso than us in these residencies.