suggestions on a grading policy

[gassan]

with the term in session, and our grading policy not really finalized, I would like to see what some of the students suggestions for a grading policy should be so that we could make recommendations to the professors. Apparently the professors have different ideas on how to adjust our grades according to which Subject exam we get offered.

We need to come to a decision that is fair, soon...the minis are only two weeks away.

Some professors are arguing to get the score from the shelf exam that you take, have the same weight in all of your courses.

Another suggestion is to add the percentage of the shelf in the classes that you don't take it, to the local final.

At the meeting on friday a proposition to have the shelf exam taken out of course grade, and be used only for evaluative purposes was brought up.

Today in class, we discussed having the overall value of the shelf exam reduced so something like 10%, and that score only counting for the course whose exam you take. for the remaining courses, that 10% will be dispersed over all of your mini exams, including the local mini (so that there will be minimal effect on your grade.

I'm curious to see if there are other suggestions that people have to make it as fair as possible.

but take this into consideration when coming up with proposals, the policy is set for this semester, so we are only going to be offered one shelf (whether or not we will know which shelf it is going to be ahead of time still hasn't been decided because the dean was still open to suggestions).
so don't suggest that we take all or none of the shelf exams.

Also remember, the local finals are now cumulative (spanning the whole term) they are no longer just covering the material between Mini II and the end of the semester.

suggest away

Gassan

[iris]

I think the idea that one shelf grade should be counted towards ALL classes should be THROWN OUT due to the simple and known fact that all shelves are not of equal difficulty. Use second semester as an example. Ask anyone in an upper semester which is most difficult and everyone will groan "PHYSIO!!!" So for the students who end up taking the Physiology shelf (blind or not), they are ultimately at a disadvantage simply because of bad luck. Some will say- so it goes... I just don't think that's a fair way to figure out your grade.

I think we should go back to having every student in every semester take every Shelf exam and having it count minimally (10%) towards your grade in each respective class. For this semester, since everyone is already only taking ONE shelf exam, it should count 10% towards that class only and 10% should be distributed among the other 3 mini's in the other classes.

Iris

[bevo]

if they are only using it as an external barometer of their teaching and us. Since we don't get any feedback either.

Why don't they just make it mandatory for every student to take at least 1 shelf from their semester but make it ungraded and unrelated to any class. Make it as a requirement to recieve your grades. Not taking it would force you to recieve an Incomplete in that class, or something like that. Or make it optional during registration and have students sign up then if they want to take it or not and which one they would like to take, at an additional fee?



The grading scheme as is is horrendous and needs to be changed.

[oc23]

i agree with bevo. the fairest way is NOT to have the shelf graded. that way the percentage weight of each exam will be the same for all the students in the class. and in order to avoid the students blowing it off, they could make the shelves mandatory. ...i don't agree with having the students pay an additional fee though. we're already paying enough as it is.

[MitchDC]

Come on guys...if the shelf weren't graded students wouldn't bother with it - they would Christmas tree the scantron and get the heck out of there so they could study for the Local Final. Imagine if the USMLE weren't graded, would you guys bother? Case in point: when students knew the MCAT was required but not considered a couple years ago, students didn't bother studying for it (if they weren't applying to US schools). Students (most, at least) don't bother with things that don't count or make any difference on their grade.

MitchDC

i agree with bevo. the fairest way is NOT to have the shelf graded. that way the percentage weight of each exam will be the same for all the students in the class. and in order to avoid the students blowing it off, they could make the shelves mandatory. ...i don't agree with having the students pay an additional fee though. we're already paying enough as it is.

[Doc12]

Obviously Ross doesn't put too much importance on shelves if they're not making us take all of them. Mitch I do think people will study for the shelf because it will be administered the day before our local final. Our finals are now cumulative... therefore, we would have already been studying for the finals, so we will be prepared for the shelf. I agree with the previous responder, I think the shelves should not be counted.

[gassan]

It would at least be up to the students discretion how seriously they wanted to take the exam. it would be for their own evaluative purposes. We're in a professional school, and i think that people would take it seriously if they're trying to evaluate their performance for their own purposes. If people don't want to take the exam seriously, fine, but an unequal distribution of testing and grading is not going to be fair for all of the students of the class, which is why making the shelf purely evaluative is a suggestion.

[dimples]

i think it should count 10% across the board

[oc23]

most of us, believe it or not, actually do want to take the shelves. we're all preparing for a very major exam (step 1), and the shelves are our only real way of evaluating ourselves on just how prepared we are for the real thing. and for that reason, most students will not be blowing this off. of course, there will always be a few students who will, in fact, blow it off, but that's their own loss and that's up to them. and besides, our local finals will be cumulative now and, as such, students will be studying for everything from start to finish anyway. the main thing we're trying to avoid here is unequal/unfair grading. some people will be lucky and get the shelf for the subject they're strongest in; some won't. some people will have their pharm mini count for 33%, while some will only have theirs count for 25%. this is the main thing we're trying to avoid.

[atth]

pharm is one of my worst subject and i would not want the final to count for say 33% while other's only count for 25%. that's almost 1 letter grade difference! however they decide to do it, it's going to be unfair unless they don't count the shelf at all. they should have thought about the grading before they go and change the policy like this. According to dean obenshain last friday, they have ironed out all the details, that's why they didn't wait to implement the new exam/shedule change! NOT!

[rph2md]

this whole situation that Dean O. has put us all in is horrible!!! I liked Iris's propsal.

I would LOVE a PHARM shelf.... but guess what... I am NOT that lucky... so it will probably be micro. Actually, since I'm a pharmacist, i would prefer a shelf in another subject.

[spatel0434]

I would really like to know their final rationale for not administering all shelfs to each student. Is it really because shelfs provide no feedback (it is just a number)? In that case, why make students even take one random shelf? How much benefit can that provide?

Personally, I would like to take all of the shelfs, and I would even pay an additional fee (if reasonable) to take it. Not only that, they should allow students the opportunity to take the comp also, and not use it only to see who moves on to Miami and who does not. In the previous semesters, I used the shelfs to see how well I had progressed in each subject. Even if it is just a number, the number DOES mean something. And now in the new scheme, being a 4th semester student, I will not be able to gauge my progress in 3 of 4 important courses (keep in mind that pharm, micro, and path are all 2 semester courses), and Step I is just around the corner.

As for shelfs counting as part of our grade. In this new scheme, the shelf score should only count for that particular course. It is completely ludicrous to even think of counting course "A" shelf score toward course "B's" grade. Who in administration came up with that suggestion?

As for my suggestion, I would say throw out counting the shelfs as part of the grade. Just count M1, M2, Local Cumulative Final (and any lab, oral, ect...) toward the grade. However, allow students the option to take the shelfs if they wish (preferably without an additional fee).

[oc23]

I would really like to know their final rationale for not administering all shelfs to each student. Is it really because shelfs provide no feedback (it is just a number)? In that case, why make students even take one random shelf? How much benefit can that provide?

in the meeting, dean obenshain said it's because we're wasting one whole week taking all the shelves when we could be using that week to study and think more about what we learned--pull things together in our heads. he also said he personally wants to get rid of it altogether, but members of the faculty expressed concern over doing that. he said that he thinks there's no advantage to taking the shelves because we don't get any feedback, just a number.

[bevo]

the shelf is just a number, just like our mini scores. We never see that and hardly ever get anything back. Unless we pull someone's leg to have something done.

[LakeForest]

Make it all or none. Either bring back the old system of having shelfs in every subject or have no shelfs at all for this semester. As far as why the new Dean changed the old policy??? Money ofcourse. Loans from undergrad, professional school, and now foreign medical school is piling up...last time I checked sallie mae, my debt is over 130,000 U.S.D. I am 4th and the only thing I am looking forward to is getting out of this island soon and in one piece. Students come and go, deans come and go, policies keep changing...I guess we just gotta roll with the punches and take it up the @...

[oc23]

the faculty has finally made their decision: the shelf will count for 15% and the final exams for the subjects where you didn't take the shelf will count 15% more than usual.

in micro, for example, someone who takes the micro shelf will have their final exam count for 21% of their grade, while someone who didn't take the micro shelf will have his final count for 36%.

15% difference! for some people, that can mean the difference between moving on and repeating. pray that you get the shelf for the class you're strongest in!

[atth]

lakeforest,

you owe that much?!?!?! do you have a family to support too that's why your loan is that much? you are only half way through! I'm also forth and I take the maximum out every semester and i only owe around $70,000!