Racism in Australia?

[567]

How serious is racism in Australia? Is the media blowing it out of proportion or is it really a problem?

Furthemore, would non-white people then be at a disadvantage when applying for all (or more competitive) residencies?

[redshifteffect]

How serious is racism in Australia? Is the media blowing it out of proportion or is it really a problem?

Furthemore, would non-white people then be at a disadvantage when applying for all (or more competitive) residencies?

If you'd actually been to Australia you'd see how silly this question is. Most of the doctors you will encounter in most hospitals are overseas trained. Many have made it to very senior positions.

How's the racism in America? Is the media blowing it out of proportion?

[567]

Thanks for the reply Redshift. What I really meant was how does the regular community (not necessarily health care workers) treat visible minorities? Recently there has been a lot on the news about rising racist incidents in Australia, and not just verbal but physical(like people throwing petroleum bombs, attacking people with screwdivers, shootings, etc), and there has been zero talk of this happening elsewhere. It really freaked me out because I am a visible minority, and I don't want to feel threatened just because of the way I look. I know it it may sound silly but I do think it is a valid concern.

If you'd actually been to Australia you'd see how silly this question is. Most of the doctors you will encounter in most hospitals are overseas trained. Many have made it to very senior positions.

How's the racism in America? Is the media blowing it out of proportion?

[redshifteffect]

Ah okay. I understand. If you're talking about the Melbourne train incidents they aren't really a true indication of systemic racism any more then say the handful of Indian students who've been killed in the US over the last few years.

I can't speek from others experience but I've been to small towns all over Australia and I can say that the majority of Indians/Pakistanis (who of course form the bulk of the overseas doctors in Oz) have been pretty happy. You do tend to meet other ethnic groups in small towns outside of medicine as well as other South Asians and from what I've heard from them it's not an issue. That isn't to say that racism doesn't exist, but it's not a major factor in their day to day lives.

Um...are you sure it doesn't happen anywhere else??

I think it gets drowned out in places like America because violence and murders are relatively common, whereas this type of thing is a big deal here.

There was a thread in another forum about this so I'm just copying and pasting, you'll note many of the incidents don't even make it to the national newspapers (sad don't you think, people just accept this as part of life):

http://www.demos.org/inequality/article.cfm?blogid=2396A9F5-3FF4-6C82-5328C5C5298B9226 (http://www.demos.org/inequality/article.cfm?blogid=2396A9F5-3FF4-6C82-5328C5C5298B9226)

http://www.demos.org/inequality/article.cfm?blogid=2396A9F5-3FF4-6C82-5328C5C5298B9226 (http://www.demos.org/inequality/article.cfm?blogid=2396A9F5-3FF4-6C82-5328C5C5298B9226)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2121612.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2121612.stm)

http://www.janet.org/~ebihara/aavn/aav_dennys_incident.html (http://www.janet.org/~ebihara/aavn/aav_dennys_incident.html)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/25/nyregion/columbia-president-denounces-racially-offensive-incidents.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/25/nyregion/columbia-president-denounces-racially-offensive-incidents.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all)

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t51636.html (http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t51636.html)

http://www.newser.com/story/12073/hate-crimes-up-racial-incidents-dominate.html (http://www.newser.com/story/12073/hate-crimes-up-racial-incidents-dominate.html)

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/c/constantine_chronis/index.html (http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/c/constantine_chronis/index.html)

http://oscarhanesbeating.blogspot.com/ (http://oscarhanesbeating.blogspot.com/)

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/11/nyregion/judge-dismisses-lawyer-for-defendant-in-racial-beating-case.html?sec=&spon (http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/11/nyregion/judge-dismisses-lawyer-for-defendant-in-racial-beating-case.html?sec=&spon)=

http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/43773-media-blackout-no-jail-long-beach.html (http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/43773-media-blackout-no-jail-long-beach.html)

http://repositories.cdlib.org/issr/volume4/19/ (http://repositories.cdlib.org/issr/volume4/19/)

http://www.howardwfrench.com/archives/2005/09/18/racist_incidents_unnerve_uva_after_slurs_students_ rally_for_change/ (http://www.howardwfrench.com/archives/2005/09/18/racist_incidents_unnerve_uva_after_slurs_students_ rally_for_change/)

http://repositories.cdlib.org/issr/volume4/19/ (http://repositories.cdlib.org/issr/volume4/19/)

http://www.howardwfrench.com/archives/2005/09/18/racist_incidents_unnerve_uva_after_slurs_students_ rally_for_change/ (http://www.howardwfrench.com/archives/2005/09/18/racist_incidents_unnerve_uva_after_slurs_students_ rally_for_change/)

http://media.www.thequindecim.com/media/storage/paper618/news/2007/10/19/News/Recent.Spate.Of.Racial.Incidents.Reveal.Deep.Centu riesOld.Tensions-3049471.shtml (http://media.www.thequindecim.com/media/storage/paper618/news/2007/10/19/News/Recent.Spate.Of.Racial.Incidents.Reveal.Deep.Centu riesOld.Tensions-3049471.shtml)

http://www.mailman.hs.columbia.edu/news/cu-campus-incidents.pdf (http://www.mailman.hs.columbia.edu/news/cu-campus-incidents.pdf)

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/11/06/2008-11-06_racist_grafitti_hits_east_new_york_grade.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/11/06/2008-11-06_racist_grafitti_hits_east_new_york_grade.html)

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2002/12/08/2002-12-08_asian_students_hit_in_rash_o.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2002/12/08/2002-12-08_asian_students_hit_in_rash_o.html)

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/20student.htm (http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/20student.htm)

http://pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=1607 (http://pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=1607)

http://www.indypressny.org/nycma/voices/111/news/news/ (http://www.indypressny.org/nycma/voices/111/news/news/)

http://www.democracynow.org/2001/10/3/arab_asian_taxi_drivers_beaten_and (http://www.democracynow.org/2001/10/3/arab_asian_taxi_drivers_beaten_and)

http://www.ocanational.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=367&Itemid=94 (http://www.ocanational.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=367&Itemid=94)

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10866820 (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10866820)

http://gothamist.com/2007/03/22/teen_beaten_for.php (http://gothamist.com/2007/03/22/teen_beaten_for.php)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-13-asian-teens-bullied_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-13-asian-teens-bullied_x.htm)

http://www.aznlover.com/vbulletin/news-around-world/15662-hitting-chinese-very-fun-14-y-o-student-beaten-brass-knuckles.html (http://www.aznlover.com/vbulletin/news-around-world/15662-hitting-chinese-very-fun-14-y-o-student-beaten-brass-knuckles.html)

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/03/03/korean-exchange-student-beaten-to-death-at-penn-state/ (http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/03/03/korean-exchange-student-beaten-to-death-at-penn-state/)

http://www.asianweek.com/2000/06/08/suny-binghamton-wrestler-pleads-guilty-to-attempted-assault/ (http://www.asianweek.com/2000/06/08/suny-binghamton-wrestler-pleads-guilty-to-attempted-assault/)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5317532 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5317532)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-********/racial-incidents-and-thre_b_144061.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-********/racial-incidents-and-thre_b_144061.html)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/3474135/Racial-incidents-sour-Barack-Obamas-victory.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/3474135/Racial-incidents-sour-Barack-Obamas-victory.html)

This is a good one:

http://www.louisianaweekly.com/news.php?viewStory=597 (http://www.louisianaweekly.com/news.php?viewStory=597)

[dadoc]

You must understand, that Australians have a very relaxed and layed back attitude. I am talking nationalistically, not just those of Anglo descent, all Australians from all backgrounds are included.

So infact, they may say things that are subliminally racist, but they may not mean it. And thats the full extent of racism on a day to day basis. Subliminals.

Of course, there are times when they go a little crazy and start harrassing everyone, or start riots, but...

All in all, dont come Australia if your super culturally sensitive. I garuntee you will run into racists, and even those who arent "racist" may have a jab at you, but there is nothing horrifying about it.

Redshift was right, I think it was either 40 or 60% of all Australian doctors are overseas trained.

[567]

Thanks dadoc and redshift. Those were the responses I was hoping for. I asked around and people have been saying the same-that those incidents are not the norm. I guess the media in Australia probably didn't focus on those attacks as much as the media here. They made it seem like it happened regularly and was a huge problem, and everyone was talking about it. The reason why I asked about getting residencies was because of that, and that I was told it's hard to get surgical residencies in Australia if you're not white. I'm glad none of this is true.

[redshifteffect]

Thanks dadoc and redshift. Those were the responses I was hoping for. I asked around and people have been saying the same-that those incidents are not the norm. I guess the media in Australia probably didn't focus on those attacks as much as the media here. They made it seem like it happened regularly and was a huge problem, and everyone was talking about it. The reason why I asked about getting residencies was because of that, and that I was told it's hard to get surgical residencies in Australia if you're not white. I'm glad none of this is true.
Most of the victorian gen surg registrars for the last few years have been brown/chinese..there are a few "white" ones but they are in the minority.

[dadoc]

Yes, general surgeons. But in QLD, I am yet to see a non-white specialised surgeon.

[redshifteffect]

Yes, general surgeons. But in QLD, I am yet to see a non-white specialised surgeon.

It could be QLD, but in NSW and VIC there's quite a few in Ortho and ENT. The ones I've seen in Plastics though are mainly South Africans though. Neurosurg has quite a few Indians. Some even trained from the US. My old boss was an (Indian) Neurosurgeon who did his residency from a US hospital. There's a British Indian lady who's also a Neurosurgeon that I met, but she's in Tasmania.

[joe soap]

So what about flipping the coin. How bad is racism in India and Pakistan towards "white" people? Wonder how easy it would be for me to get a job in said countries? People seem to forget racism is a two way street. During basic sciences I remember a guy telling me how he managed to get his F's off his transcript just by saying that the prof was a racist. He was Indian and the prof was white. He laughed about it saying he had done that in undergrad in Canada often. Wonder if I can get away with that sh*t.

[redshifteffect]

I think the point you make is a good one, but the analogy you used probably isn't a good example in this case, and let me explain why.

Part of the problem with being a former colony is that although you tend to dislike your former "conquerors" you do have a certain awe and respect for their methodologies. You can see this in the mentality of many of the citizens of former colonial countries. For example many Indians/Pakistanis/Malaysians etc. prefer sending their children to western medical schools (if they can afford them) even though in some cases the training they get (especially in regards to patient/student ratio or in terms of didactic anatomy teaching) can be inferior to what they would receive in their home countries. Yet the perception is that since they are being trained in a Western country they must be getting "better" training then what they would receive at home. Many students go to these countries with the full intention of returning home but with the knowledge that automatically having a western degree/training will put their career on a better trajectory then what they would have achieved had they stayed at home. This is evidenced by the huge number of Thai consultants who have completed post-graduate training in the US/UK/Australia, yet return to their native country.

Therefore if you were a Western doctor you would automatically be favored over a local graduate, simply on the basis of your degree. However not being able to speak the local language and not having connections (which is even more important in developing nations) might limit your career options. Your race/qualifications however would not be discriminated against because they are foreign.

Now we all know that Indian/Pakistani doctors in general have a poor reputation in Western countries regardless of whether or not that is true (I personally believe it isn't) and so in the grand scheme of things your race/qualifications would be given much more respect in their homelands then theirs would be in yours.

[dadoc]

Back on topic, in the medical field, racism shouldnt (key word) be a problem.

But, something I did notice in Aus society is the use of subliminal remarks that can be racist. Things may be said as a joke, but can be percieved racist. Being of German background, I did get subliminal remarks from alot of my peers in school, workplace etc.
Most people dont mean anything by it, rather it was just innaporpriate rather than racist.

[567]

umm I posted my question in the AUSTRALIAN forum for a reason. Obviously racism is a two way steet and no one said otherwise. For your info, many Asian countries love Westerners, so your situation would not be the same.

So what about flipping the coin. How bad is racism in India and Pakistan towards "white" people? Wonder how easy it would be for me to get a job in said countries? People seem to forget racism is a two way street. During basic sciences I remember a guy telling me how he managed to get his F's off his transcript just by saying that the prof was a racist. He was Indian and the prof was white. He laughed about it saying he had done that in undergrad in Canada often. Wonder if I can get away with that pooh pooh.

[567]

It was more the physical attacks and murders that scared me, and not being able to get a surgical residency. I'm not really bothered by subliminal remarks/jokes, but it's good you pointed that out. My background is Arabic so it's pretty much expected I'll get(and do get) such remarks.


Back on topic, in the medical field, racism shouldnt (key word) be a problem.

But, something I did notice in Aus society is the use of subliminal remarks that can be racist. Things may be said as a joke, but can be percieved racist. Being of German background, I did get subliminal remarks from alot of my peers in school, workplace etc.
Most people dont mean anything by it, rather it was just innaporpriate rather than racist.

[redshifteffect]

Being Arabic in ancestry will not hurt your chances at a specialist position. However not having connections or not having the right things on your CV will. So if that's what you're interested in make sure you find out from your colleagues/seniors what will increase your chances in getting a job.

[567]

Thanks Redshift. I just wanted to clarify something. Once I finish my MBBS degree, I understand that I have to do an internship and a RMO year. So does that mean that at first everyone is training as a GP, and only after that we can specialize? In the U.S./Canada, people apply directly to a specialization, but that doesn't seem to be the case in Australia. And how much on average do the interns and RMOs get paid and taxed?

Being Arabic in ancestry will not hurt your chances at a specialist position. However not having connections or not having the right things on your CV will. So if that's what you're interested in make sure you find out from our colleagues/seniors what will increase your chances in getting a job.

[lifeAgift]

Hmmm wonder what the idigenious aboriginals would say!!! Racism is a light term, the ish folks have pulled in Australia is akin to ethnic cleansing and genocide. Not much unlike the anihilation of the first nation peoples of the United States.

[redshifteffect]

Thanks Redshift. I just wanted to clarify something. Once I finish my MBBS degree, I understand that I have to do an internship and a RMO year. So does that mean that at first everyone is training as a GP, and only after that we can specialize? In the U.S./Canada, people apply directly to a specialization, but that doesn't seem to be the case in Australia. And how much on average do the interns and RMOs get paid and taxed?

It's complicated. The internship is required for everything, but the RMO year is only required for some things. For example for GP training, you can gain entry into the program during your Intern year, but your first year is technically an RMO year, but you are in the training program. Pathology, Psychiatry, Emergency Medicine and a few others will let you in without an RMO year, but you will of course be more competitive with an RMO year.

Surgery requires an RMO year.

This internship + RMO is not equal to General Practice. To do General practice you need to be in the GP training program and write their exams. There was a point in time where a GP was someone with only an internship, but those days are gone.

I won't quote direct salaries, to maintain my privacy, but I can tell you that you can make 100g+ as an intern if you pick the right hospital. That's working 50 hours a week. If you get in good with a surgeon and do some private assisting you can make 2000-3000/day doing that sort of work. Don't pick a big city hospital though as they are usually stingy on overtime, and their base salaries are lower. Victora and NSW have the lowest base salaries.

Taxes aren't bad because of salary packaging. I wont' go into too much details but almost everything from your rent, meals and mobile phones are tax deductible...I saved a lot of taxes that way.

*Edit*

Actually in the US although theoretically you can apply directly to surgery quite a few people do not get it (it's fairly competitive there too, even more so if you do not have a green card or Citizenship). So you can do a transitional or prelim/categorical year. This is equivalent to the Australian internship year.

[redshifteffect]

Hmmm wonder what the idigenious aboriginals would say!!! Racism is a light term, the ish folks have pulled in Australia is akin to ethnic cleansing and genocide. Not much unlike the anihilation of the first nation peoples of the United States.

It's not much but at least they got their "sorry". When is Obama going to do the same?

[dadoc]

It's not much but at least they got their "sorry". When is Obama going to do the same?

That "sorry" was so insincere and pathetic. It was honestly a joke, or a stunt pulled off by Rudd just to make his stand in the government. And the opposition leader is even more stupid. His speech was insulting....

[redshifteffect]

That "sorry" was so insincere and pathetic. It was honestly a joke, or a stunt pulled off by Rudd just to make his stand in the government. And the opposition leader is even more stupid. His speech was insulting....

I never claimed it was great, but you must admit it's at least a start. I know to some of my aboriginal patients it meant a lot.

[dadoc]

Indeed. But still, its barely enough. You compare the indeginous populations lifestyle to other Australians, and its like traveling to a 3rd world country.

I did somee volunteer work at an Aboriginal Youth Center, and when I walked some of the kids home, I was absolutely appauled at the state.

PS: I dont like the Rudd governement. I think he is a complete moron and so is Anna Bligh and "Gilly" Gillard..

They promised so much, but have managed to do nothing. Where is the reform in education and transport? 2 big promises not even looked at.

[redshifteffect]

Yep I agree. I worked in the territory and it really is 3rd world like up there. But part of the problem is that aboriginals don't really trust other Australians, and they have such a nomadic lifestyle that they might be in Alice springs one day and in Darwin the next. All this makes it tough to keep track of medical conditions and treatments. I still remember seeing brand new multihundred thousand dollar houses being abandoned in a community. When I asked why they said someone died in there, and once that happens they can no longer live in the house. So the result is the government spends millions building these houses only to have them abandoned.

I think a radically new approach will have to be taken to improve their living conditions, but what it will be I have no idea about.

[567]

Redshift, thanks! So are internship programs and residency programs affiliated? So basically you should do your internship in a hospital where you want to get a residency? And is it like your clinicals, where you do a certain type of rotation(like surgery, psychiatry, etc), so an internship would be specialized in a certain field? Do internship directors value med school marks and research experience? Would I have to get my PR before I have a good chance at getting an internship? Thanks.

[redshifteffect]

Redshift, thanks! So are internship programs and residency programs affiliated? So basically you should do your internship in a hospital where you want to get a residency? And is it like your clinicals, where you do a certain type of rotation(like surgery, psychiatry, etc), so an internship would be specialized in a certain field? Do internship directors value med school marks and research experience? Would I have to get my PR before I have a good chance at getting an internship? Thanks.

Australian training programs are super flexible. There are many many ways to get to the same end result, which means even if you aren't a good candidate to get in the easy way, there is at least a "hard way".

No internship programs and residency programs are not affiliated, but the people who pick residents "PDs as they are termed in the US" will know you if you were an intern in that hospital, so it basically makes you an internal candidate, which means it's much easier to get a job there. Internship varies from state to state and hospital to hospital. You can request certain rotations if you want them, but the core three everyone in the country has to do are the same (ED, Gen Med, Gen Surg).

To be honest for me getting a minimum wage job in Canada (I still haven't gotten that call back from Old Navy...hopefully one of these days). was harder then getting my internship (and in a way residency), When you graduate I doubt I'd be able to say the same. So if you have your PR you will be at a huge advantage.

[567]

Redshift, thanks for all the info you provided me(and everyone else). Seriously, this forum wouldn't be half as useful without you.

p.s. Maybe your medical work experience will now help you out-compete all the other over-qualified people applying for jobs at Old Navy(or any other workplace right now). The recession is not helping either.:(


Australian training programs are super flexible. There are many many ways to get to the same end result, which means even if you aren't a good candidate to get in the easy way, there is at least a "hard way".

No internship programs and residency programs are not affiliated, but the people who pick residents "PDs as they are termed in the US" will know you if you were an intern in that hospital, so it basically makes you an internal candidate, which means it's much easier to get a job there. Internship varies from state to state and hospital to hospital. You can request certain rotations if you want them, but the core three everyone in the country has to do are the same (ED, Gen Med, Gen Surg).

To be honest for me getting a minimum wage job in Canada (I still haven't gotten that call back from Old Navy...hopefully one of these days). was harder then getting my internship (and in a way residency), When you graduate I doubt I'd be able to say the same. So if you have your PR you will be at a huge advantage.

[redshifteffect]

Redshift, thanks for all the info you provided me(and everyone else). Seriously, this forum wouldn't be half as useful without you.

p.s. Maybe your medical work experience will now help you out-compete all the other over-qualified people applying for jobs at Old Navy(or any other workplace right now). The recession is not helping either.:(

567,

You're welcome. I'm glad to help.

I should just add a bit more, as I hate to confuse people but I also hate not to provide every little exception to the rule as well.

Some training programs like Surgery, Pathology etc. are done on a state or national level. Others like Internal medicine or Rehab or Emergency medicine are done on an individual hospital level, and once the hospital accepts you into their training program you can then apply to be part of that college.

So for example in Pathology you apply to a state you are interested in (ie SA). You attend a meeting where all the directors for interested hospitals/labs are present who interview you at the same time. You put down a ranking of labs/hospitals and they do the same. You then get offered a job at a hospital/lab based on the mutual ranking. Now if you know a director at a hospital both you and s/he can place each other high on the list and s/he can ask for you specifically when the match time comes (there's a lot of flexibility) so in that case doing an internship at that hospital will help you in getting a job.

In terms of Surgery there are a core group of directors for each state, and even nationally. If you can make yourself known to them it greatly increases your chances at getting a surgery job since they interview you and allocate jobs. Each one of these people also work at large hospitals, so being an intern there can increase your chances at getting a job.

Less competitive specialities however like Rehab you simply apply to the hospital (say Royal melbourne) for a Rehab registrar job. Once you get accepted you then apply to the College of Rehab Physicians, they accept you (since you have a registrar job) you pay your registration fee and you're in the training position. No transcript, hassle or stressful match required.

There is also a lot of room to switch specialities. I've had plenty of friends switch from GP to Emergency to Psychiatry and then back to GP. Even if you go down the GP path you aren't stuck with it. Certain specialities like chronic pain, or palliative care allow fully licensed GPs to apply to their training programs (as well as allowing other specialties to apply). As a GP you can also do 6 month diplomas in various fields like Obs/Gynae, Paediatrics, Dermatology and set up a speciality interest practice in those areas. Since there's a high skin cancer rate in Australia, and few dermatologists many GPs actually run skin care clinics where they devote a huge portion of their practice to common skin problems, and the removal of BCCs/SCCs/SebKs/keratoAcanthos etc.

So there is a huge range of options available in terms of training and unlike North America you are not pigeoned holed into practicing in one particular area once your training is completed.

Country towns offer an even more bewildering range of options since they are short staffed, but that could take pages to list so I'll not go into it.

[567]

Thanks again, Redshift! Interesting...that system is very different from North America. It's great that they're so much more flexible over there. You know how there's the ROPE PAD in North America (Radiology->Derm), which are all very competitive because of the lifestyle and high salary. Are there certain specialities that are best in terms of lifestyle in Australia? I'm interested in both an academic and clinical career but also having some free time for myself, so I don't know if surgery would be good for that. Sub-specializing as a GP sounds really interesting...I didn't know you could do that, so I'm going to look into that for sure.

567,

You're welcome. I'm glad to help.

I should just add a bit more, as I hate to confuse people but I also hate not to provide every little exception to the rule as well.

Some training programs like Surgery, Pathology etc. are done on a state or national level. Others like Internal medicine or Rehab or Emergency medicine are done on an individual hospital level, and once the hospital accepts you into their training program you can then apply to be part of that college.

So for example in Pathology you apply to a state you are interested in (ie SA). You attend a meeting where all the directors for interested hospitals/labs are present who interview you at the same time. You put down a ranking of labs/hospitals and they do the same. You then get offered a job at a hospital/lab based on the mutual ranking. Now if you know a director at a hospital both you and s/he can place each other high on the list and s/he can ask for you specifically when the match time comes (there's a lot of flexibility) so in that case doing an internship at that hospital will help you in getting a job.

In terms of Surgery there are a core group of directors for each state, and even nationally. If you can make yourself known to them it greatly increases your chances at getting a surgery job since they interview you and allocate jobs. Each one of these people also work at large hospitals, so being an intern there can increase your chances at getting a job.

Less competitive specialities however like Rehab you simply apply to the hospital (say Royal melbourne) for a Rehab registrar job. Once you get accepted you then apply to the College of Rehab Physicians, they accept you (since you have a registrar job) you pay your registration fee and you're in the training position. No transcript, hassle or stressful match required.

There is also a lot of room to switch specialities. I've had plenty of friends switch from GP to Emergency to Psychiatry and then back to GP. Even if you go down the GP path you aren't stuck with it. Certain specialities like chronic pain, or palliative care allow fully licensed GPs to apply to their training programs (as well as allowing other specialties to apply). As a GP you can also do 6 month diplomas in various fields like Obs/Gynae, Paediatrics, Dermatology and set up a speciality interest practice in those areas. Since there's a high skin cancer rate in Australia, and few dermatologists many GPs actually run skin care clinics where they devote a huge portion of their practice to common skin problems, and the removal of BCCs/SCCs/SebKs/keratoAcanthos etc.

So there is a huge range of options available in terms of training and unlike North America you are not pigeoned holed into practicing in one particular area once your training is completed.

Country towns offer an even more bewildering range of options since they are short staffed, but that could take pages to list so I'll not go into it.

[redshifteffect]

Thanks again, Redshift! Interesting...that system is very different from North America. It's great that they're so much more flexible over there. You know how there's the ROPE PAD in North America (Radiology->Derm), which are all very competitive because of the lifestyle and high salary. Are there certain specialities that are best in terms of lifestyle in Australia? I'm interested in both an academic and clinical career but also having some free time for myself, so I don't know if surgery would be good for that. Sub-specializing as a GP sounds really interesting...I didn't know you could do that, so I'm going to look into that for sure.

There are quite a few specialties that are good for lifestyle, but it really depends on what you're interested in. Surgery is the hardest job in any country. Even in Oz it involves long hours and high stress. It does however pay very well.

[dadoc]

Redshift, whats your speciality?

[rodius]

For what is worth as a contribution to this thread, I am from Guatemala, Central America, and I have been living in Melbourne for the past 2 months.

I havent seen or suffered racist remark at all. Not that I wont... the whole world is racist! Even we have our own racism in some way... a philosophical remark that fall out of the scope of my comment.

The society seems so nice. Ive been to Europe (lived 6 month in Barcelona for example, and spent time in Italy and France), Africa (worked 15 months in Kenya) and a lot to the US. Australia for me its the most non-racism place I've ever been to.

SO far so good

[Vox]

Hmm, I dont know. I spent alot of my life in Australia and I was a victim of alot of racism at work and at school. The thing is, they arent openly racist, so how you interpret alot of comments will be the factor when deciding racist or not. And as someone said before, its not just the anglo-Australians that are racist. Ive noticed each cultural group tends to be racist to others. I guess about 75% of Australians arent racist, but that 25% can affect how you see it.

I also lived in the US for about 5 years, and its beyond just racial tolerance and acceptance. From what I remember, everyone was treated the same, and I never ever experienced any form of it in the states.

[pj1969]

Redshift was right, I think it was either 40 or 60% of all Australian doctors are overseas trained.

Way off the mark - more like 25% overall, though it can be much much higher in some rural areas.