SABA or Ireland

[MONS]

Hello there,

I am faced with a difficult decision as to which Medical program I should attend. I need to decide between SABA and Trinity College Dublin, Ireland. I am looking for a little bit of help with this. I am a Canadian and hoping to match in Canada following graduation. I would particularly like to know how living on the island is and for your experience on the island. Also if you have any information of Trinity College that would help with my decision it would be very much appreciated. Thank you for you time!

MONS

[drrone]

Hi,
I am currently going to school on Saba. I am Canadian aswell, but I am not really interested in matching in Canada. I have had friends that where in the same position as you though and have had good Canadian Matches. So, you can definately get rotations and residencies in Canada. It is mostly Eastern Canada and nothing out West. How it compares with school in Ireland I don't know. I had a friend that went to school in Poland and he is back in Canada doing a fellowship, so there are alot of options. It is going to depend on your step 1 scores mostly. If you kill it then it opens up alot of doors.
Saba overall is a great school. The education has been very good and the matching is good. The island is small, but I really like it. There are few distractions and it is safe, the people are friendly and it is beautiful.
Hope that helps a bit. If you have any other ?'s you can pm me.

[devildoc8404]

I would have loved to study in Ireland. My colleague met several grads from there (RCSI, though, not Trinity) while doing his 4th year rotations. They all spoke very highly of their experiences there. If either one will get you where you want to go, then pick where you think you will be happiest... I do wonder if there's any truth to the rumor that it's easier to get back to Canada from a Commonwealth country school (UK, Australia, New Zealand)?

[Shiz77]

I'm Canadian as well and I honestly don't know much about Ireland. From what I've read on student doctor forum and from what I've heard is that the reputation is pretty high if you go to Ireland than caribbean or even australia. But I think the rep only counts for getting into academic medicine.

Many Canadians who go to Australia end up writing the step and end up matching in american residencies and that might as well be happening in Ireland. Ireland is pretty darn expensive too. Had you asked this question a few years ago I would say go to Caribbean hands down, match in US and come back to Canada. But w/ the lack of residency seats and the match rates for non US IMGs at 40%, it's not an easy decision for us Canadians. Personally I'd go to saba, it's cheaper than Ireland by a LOT and it has good match rates. Statistically speaking you will be getting a primary care position and I don't know if you would want to spend over 60k/year of tuition in Ireland (I think) to become a GP. Good luck.

[Big Baller]

I am not sure where do students from Irish Schools do their clinical rotations but due to the fact that Saba students do theirs in US plays a big role when matching in US or Canada. My 2 cents...

[MONS]

Thanks guys this is helpful...I am more and more considering Ireland though. However I might change my mind again because of the costs.

I like the fact that in Ireland you get summers off in which I would also be able to get back into Canada and make contact and shadow doctor in my area. Also you can do clinical rotations in the US and Canada. I have read that Trinity College is ranked as the #1 in Ireland and they have very interesting research in Neuroscience which is something I am very interested in as I am currently finishing up my MSc in Neuroscience. Also since it is a 1st world country the transition to studying abroad would be much easier.

I guess it seems like my mind is made up but I don't know if this all justifies the cost difference.

I do not plan to be a GP however it may end up happening...I would much rather specialize.

[howardhoavan]

Thanks guys this is helpful...I am more and more considering Ireland though. However I might change my mind again because of the costs.

I like the fact that in Ireland you get summers off in which I would also be able to get back into Canada and make contact and shadow doctor in my area. Also you can do clinical rotations in the US and Canada. I have read that Trinity College is ranked as the #1 in Ireland and they have very interesting research in Neuroscience which is something I am very interested in as I am currently finishing up my MSc in Neuroscience. Also since it is a 1st world country the transition to studying abroad would be much easier.

I guess it seems like my mind is made up but I don't know if this all justifies the cost difference.

I do not plan to be a GP however it may end up happening...I would much rather specialize.

Hi I matched to CANADA this year as my first choice. Honestly I don't find any difference btw Ireland candidates and SABA. One thing when we are going through CARMS processs I find a lot of of luck associated with it. You will see a guy with fellowship in neurosurgery on your CARMS interviews and wonder if you should compete with him. Honestly, I find school pretty much is platform for us to get our MD, to gain a good residency is varies from individual to individual. Most of Ireland grads I met during the interview trail do admitted that it is hard to be IMG, we are the same boat. Honestly speaking I think our SABA is one of the best performant in term of matching to CAN. Ireland is a good training spot, but again, it is pricey. If you think you gonna kick *** in MCCEE, good personality that you can make a good connection. Good LOR, SABA is a lot cheaper. Still It will not guarantee to have a spot in CAN. sadly speaking, most of Canucks going to Ireland end up in states.
Good luck, PM me if you want further information.

[doctorvp]

A rep from CARMS came to SGU to give a presentation on the statistics regarding Canadians Studying Abroad and their match rates in Canada.
Statistically, Canadian students from Australian medical schools have the best success of matching in Canada. I believe Ireland was 2nd. This info should be available on the CARMS website, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[sgMD]

A rep from CARMS came to SGU to give a presentation on the statistics regarding Canadians Studying Abroad and their match rates in Canada.
Statistically, Canadian students from Australian medical schools have the best success of matching in Canada. I believe Ireland was 2nd. This info should be available on the CARMS website, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


I have seen those statistics too... but they are incorrect statistics!!!

Please consider the fact that there is MORE canadian students going to AUstralia and Ireland than Caribbean in the first place, so obviously there is going to be more matches from those two countries in compare with, say Saba.

In fact, what would be interesting to know is the RATIO of students who go to a certain place and then match in Canada. In this way, I think Saba has the best match ratio (considering 2009 match).

Also, I think it is much easier for Saba students to complete their residency in US than it is for Irish or Auzzie students, because Saba is focused on preparaing its students for USMLE as well. According to the College of Phy and Surg of Ontario, it is much easier to practice in Canada if you've done your residency in US. Saba students also do their clinicals in US, so it is easier to make connections for future residency too.


Pathway 4: IMG with US Postgraduate Training and Certification



The Registration Committee may direct the Registrar to issue a certificate of registration to an applicant who is an IMG, if the applicant has:
successfully completed a residency program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education;
been certified by a US Specialty Board;
successfully completed the US Medical Licensing Examination or successfully completed an acceptable qualifying examination; and
an independent or full license or certificate to practise without restrictions in the US or is eligible to apply for an independent or full license or certificate of registration to practise without restrictions in the US.
The following conditions will be placed on the certificate of registration:
The physician must practice with a mentor and/or supervisor until he or she has successfully completed an assessment.
The physician must undergo an assessment after completing a minimum of one year of practice in Ontario. The certificate of registration automatically expires 18 months from the date of issuance, but may be renewed by the Registration Committee, with or without additional or other terms, conditions and limitations.

[doctorvp]

I have seen those statistics too... but they are incorrect statistics!!!

Please consider the fact that there is MORE canadian students going to AUstralia and Ireland than Caribbean in the first place, so obviously there is going to be more matches from those two countries in compare with, say Saba.

In fact, what would be interesting to know is the RATIO of students who go to a certain place and then match in Canada. In this way, I think Saba has the best match ratio (considering 2009 match).

Also, I think it is much easier for Saba students to complete their residency in US than it is for Irish or Auzzie students, because Saba is focused on preparaing its students for USMLE as well. According to the College of Phy and Surg of Ontario, it is much easier to practice in Canada if you've done your residency in US. Saba students also do their clinicals in US, so it is easier to make connections for future residency too.


Pathway 4: IMG with US Postgraduate Training and Certification



The Registration Committee may direct the Registrar to issue a certificate of registration to an applicant who is an IMG, if the applicant has:

successfully completed a residency program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education;
been certified by a US Specialty Board;
successfully completed the US Medical Licensing Examination or successfully completed an acceptable qualifying examination; and
an independent or full license or certificate to practise without restrictions in the US or is eligible to apply for an independent or full license or certificate of registration to practise without restrictions in the US.

The following conditions will be placed on the certificate of registration:

The physician must practice with a mentor and/or supervisor until he or she has successfully completed an assessment.
The physician must undergo an assessment after completing a minimum of one year of practice in Ontario. The certificate of registration automatically expires 18 months from the date of issuance, but may be renewed by the Registration Committee, with or without additional or other terms, conditions and limitations.



She specifically stated program directors in Canada seem to have a favorable bias towards CSA's from Australia and Ireland as opposed to the Caribbean. When I have time I will try to find the powerpoint presentation she presented to us.. So for now, take it with a grain of salt i guess.

[sgMD]

She specifically stated program directors in Canada seem to have a favorable bias towards CSA's from Australia and Ireland as opposed to the Caribbean. When I have time I will try to find the powerpoint presentation she presented to us.. So for now, take it with a grain of salt i guess.


well I guess their data belongs to the times before CPSO changed their registration rules... plus a caribbean school like Saba is very much like a US medical school except the fact that you do your basic science on in the caribbean campus (with an american faculty). I believe one can even study basic sciences back at home with all your textbooks and online lectures (except for the anatomy lab where Saba has all the essentials for students to learn what they need to learn).

Now if whoever does not approve this kind of education while you obtain a high score in the canadian licensing test, then their loss! (and the fact is they do actually take you.... Saba 2009 match list proves this point).

[MONS]

I have heard that the clinical rotations you do in the USA are not at the well respected universities and they put you where ever they want. Can anyone clarify this?

[uvicstudent]

Ireland is definitely better than the Caribbean for getting a Canadian residency(for canadian citizens). They have basically a 100% match for canadian residencies(although uncompetitive ones), so you are pretty safe there. The real question is whether or not you can afford it. Even the cheapest of Irish schools will run you over $320,000, and loans will not cover that in most cases. From what I have heard, students in Ireland are funded by wealthy family members, so if you are one of those lucky few pick Ireland.

[urosaba]

Don't know that I'd agree that Ireland has a better match rate than carribean. I'd say it was pretty damn even. Know gen surg, rads, ortho, ob/gyn that matched from ireland and a ortho, ob/gyn, ER, uro from Saba. I think for certain things Ireland will get you further (gen surg), but all in all very close. As far as the clinical rotations from Saba some are crap, but there are also good spots as well (IM- Bridgeport - dirt town but Yale affiliated program w/ some wicked smart residents). And it may be more hands on than what you get in Ireland. If you're really interested in Canada do rotations there... like all programs in Canada the standard is quite good and consistent. And if you want to get into gen surg in Canada doing your elective their won;t hurt.

[uvicstudent]

Don't know that I'd agree that Ireland has a better match rate than carribean. I'd say it was pretty damn even. Know gen surg, rads, ortho, ob/gyn that matched from ireland and a ortho, ob/gyn, ER, uro from Saba. I think for certain things Ireland will get you further (gen surg), but all in all very close. As far as the clinical rotations from Saba some are crap, but there are also good spots as well (IM- Bridgeport - dirt town but Yale affiliated program w/ some wicked smart residents). And it may be more hands on than what you get in Ireland. If you're really interested in Canada do rotations there... like all programs in Canada the standard is quite good and consistent. And if you want to get into gen surg in Canada doing your elective their won;t hurt.

Are you a Saba graduate/current student?

[dadoc]

Many Canadians who go to Australia end up writing the step and end up matching in american residencies and that might as well be happening in Ireland. .


Many Canadians who end up going to Australian schools stay in Australia or try to get back into Canada. It doesnt make sense going to Australia to go into the US.

This has been discussed before and if you want to get back into Canada, Ireland is your best chance. However, weigh up the positives and negatives about it before deciding. Would working in the US really be so bad? Seeing as how GPs in Canada make the same as a nurse in the US, maybe you should rethink about spending 300K+ on Med school in Ireland.

Fact: Your chance of getting into a residency because you came from an Irish school rather than a Caribbean one, is only slightly higher. Might land you a nicer residency, but then again, thats a big "might"

[MedMan87]

Many Canadians who end up going to Australian schools stay in Australia or try to get back into Canada. It doesnt make sense going to Australia to go into the US.

This has been discussed before and if you want to get back into Canada, Ireland is your best chance. However, weigh up the positives and negatives about it before deciding. Would working in the US really be so bad? Seeing as how GPs in Canada make the same as a nurse in the US, maybe you should rethink about spending 300K+ on Med school in Ireland.

Fact: Your chance of getting into a residency because you came from an Irish school rather than a Caribbean one, is only slightly higher. Might land you a nicer residency, but then again, thats a big "might"

I don't think GPs in Canada make as much as nurses in the US, GPs here make atleast 150+

[olek]

I don't think GPs in Canada make as much as nurses in the US, GPs here make atleast 150+

You're in for a surprise, kiddo. Do some reasearch.

[MedMan87]

You're in for a surprise, kiddo. Do some reasearch.

Well my dad's an MD...but my figure may be more for private practice FP?

[olek]

My dad is not an MD. I got my information from Statistics Canada.

[urosaba]

Saba graduate, this year (for Uvic student)

[atropine]

Most program directors aren't going to know anything about Australian/Irish/Carib schools. But at face value, they will automatically be much more skeptical about a person who attended a medical school that only exists to profit off applicants who were rejected from Canada and US schools. Aus/IE schools are established with great reputations and are there to train their own citizens, and follow the commonwealth system which is much more similar to Canada than the US style (which you will get at a Carib school).

On the other hand, since Saba students are matching frequently in Canada, my guess is that a positive reputation is slowly being established in these programs. These program directors will be much more comfortable with a Saba grad now that they have seen the quality of its alumni.

As for which is better, I would say you are still slightly better off at an Irish/Australian school, but is all that extra cost really worth it? In addition, it seems like these schools are ONLY matching into FM, whereas Saba students seem to be matching into many other specialties as well.

[atropine]

My dad is not an MD. I got my information from Statistics Canada.
How did they calculate these stats? They probably include people who only work part-time hours. Most FPs can comfortably make around 120-140k by working 5 days a week in an urban clinic setting. There's a lot more if you do cosmetics, procedures, obs, or work in underserviced areas with rural retention fees. ER work and hospitalists make a lot more as well.

[MedMan87]

How did they calculate these stats? They probably include people who only work part-time hours. Most FPs can comfortably make around 120-140k by working 5 days a week in an urban clinic setting. There's a lot more if you do cosmetics, procedures, obs, or work in underserviced areas with rural retention fees. ER work and hospitalists make a lot more as well.

thats about what my dad quoted me.