Georgia is considering using the CA lsit

[Aviv Imanuel]

An OP in the IUHS forum posted this.... If true Georgia will soon ban many Caribbean schools, another one bites the dust!

"I decided to email a few states to see where everything stands, if they will licence graduates from IUHS, even if it has online course components, and i will post responses as i receive them, so far i only have one...

here is the thread....

http://www.valuemd.com/international-university-health-sciences-iuhs/170410-states-accept-iuhs-graduates.html#post1018513

GEORGIA-
Good morning. We are currently accepting international medical school graduates if the schools are listed in the WHO Book. This may change soon as we are looking into using the same list as the State of California utilizes. I am not sure about the courses. As far as the residency programs, you will need to contact the program as each program has it owns requirements for the programs. Should you have additional
questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us.:

[Aviv Imanuel]

I found this thread in the IUHS forum....

http://www.valuemd.com/international-university-health-sciences-iuhs/170410-states-accept-iuhs-graduates.html#post1018513

If it is true and they do, then Georgia will effectively ban several Caribbean schools, not just IUHS.

Your thoughts?

[DoctorJ]

If this happens, a lof of Carib students will be effected. There are currently quite a few Carib students rotating in GA. Some hope to eventually get a license there.

With all this movement towards accepting CA list, eventually only those schools approved by CA will survive.

What about those graduates currently in residency in GA? They prob won't get licensed if this passes.

It'd be interesting to see what happens.

What about graduates who have been licensed in States before they adpt the CA list? Will they be grandfathered in?

[Shiz77]

They usually put a deadline for their California approval will work. But it's true, this California list is spreading and most of the schools will fail.

[med etudiant]

Perhaps MUA and AUA will expedite their plans for Cali? One could only hope?

[Shiz77]

One can only hope med, one can only hope.

[jonasp]

There needs to be a major overhaul in the way caribbean schools are evaluated. I have never understood why a national committee doesnt oversee this issue and can either totally approve the school everywhere or dissaprove them everywhere this would solve all the problems in the future. No student will need to worry about state to state licensing and the country doesnt have to worry about crappy caribb schools who are diploma mills since no one will attend those schools.This califonia adoption policy is nonsense and gives everyone a headache.

[Shiz77]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Jonas but who will be doing that. Clearly we as students have no power to do it and the schools are making enough money to not push for it.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Unfortunately they rarely do it retroactive. In other words, recognition begins from the moment they give their approval, not before. A tought one.


Perhaps MUA and AUA will expedite their plans for Cali? One could only hope?

[med etudiant]

Unfortunately they rarely do it retroactive. In other words, recognition begins from the moment they give their approval, not before. A tought one.

Rarely. However, didn't Saba have a 2 or 3 year retroactive clause?

I'm hoping that MUA's relationship with Saba will aid (somewhat) in the approval process.

I just pray all of this is taken care of before I head to any Medical school, Caribbean or not. :roll:

[jonasp]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Jonas but who will be doing that. Clearly we as students have no power to do it and the schools are making enough money to not push for it.

If the country is so adamant about "protecting its citizens from corrupt diploma mill schools" as well as "providing the best doctors for their country" I dont see a better alternative. Maybe all the states will slowly adopt california and that will be the unfortunate solution. I just think the whole process is awful and the ones who will get hurt are current and future students in decent caribb schools like smu aua and mua that can actually practice in parts of the country but will find the windows of opportunity closing rapidly....And then the country will be dumbfounded as to why we are in a recession when we have students that are hundreds of thousands in debt with no place to go and no way to pay it back.

[Shiz77]

I agree, it's sad to see schools like MUA, AUA, SMU lumped in with the rest of the non cali approved schools.

[MDXRS22]

Shoot! That would be nasty then. I hope this does not happen any time soon

[Shiz77]

It's not only Georgia, there are 2 other states looking into adopting the Cali list. I'm pretty sure it will happen in 2009 or 10.

[jonasp]

shizz so georgia isnt included as one of the 2 states considering california this year?

[Shiz77]

I don't know Jonas. This Georgia thing is from some dudes post on vmd, who received an email from Georgia med board. I don't think it's bogus though. Azskeptic and Pat Park both stated to me there are a few med boards looking into the Cali list this year. I believe Pat Park said 2 states and Az initially said 2 but then said 3. They would not give me the names of the boards due to confidentiality.

Nevisbutterfly (MUA grad) tried campaigning with Arkansas for a reconsideration of the list or to give us a little break like New Mexico does (which gives you a license after you have been licensed in another state for a few years). But they only stated that only if it serves the interest of the state they will take anyone from a non cali approved school...whatever that means.

I'm not American, I'm Canadian so I don't know how this process would work. In Canada you would contact your MPPs and MPs and if they received enough emails they would bring up issue in the house and it would be addressed. Funny enough Canada is very lax w/ IMG schools, they just have to be IMED listed.

[jonasp]

I don't know Jonas. This Georgia thing is from some dudes post on vmd, who received an email from Georgia med board. I don't think it's bogus though. Azskeptic and Pat Park both stated to me there are a few med boards looking into the Cali list this year. I believe Pat Park said 2 states and Az initially said 2 but then said 3. They would not give me the names of the boards due to 'confidentiality'.

Nevisbutterfly (MUA grad) tried campaigning with Arkansas for a reconsideration of the list or to give us a little break like New Mexico does (which gives you a license after you have been licensed in another state for a few years). But they only stated that only if it serves the interest of the state they will take anyone from a non cali approved school...whatever that means.

I'm not American, I'm Canadian so I don't know how this process would work. In Canada you would contact your MPPs and MPs and if they received enough emails they would bring up issue in the house and it would be addressed. Funny enough Canada is very lax w/ IMG schools, they just have to be IMED listed.

Yeah i hear you...if anything why cant the states make it case by case this way they can take into account all of your credentials and evaluate on their own whether you merit a license or not.Its pretty ridiculous to tell someone who went through an acgme residency program in a state and passed every exam with flying colors he is not qualified to practice medicine because he studied embryology in a library in Grand Cayman or Nevis instead of in Grenada.

[DoctorJ]

I can't say for other States but what will happen in GA is that most residency programs will not take people who aren't eligible for licensure in GA. It has something to do with post graduate training funding.

[med etudiant]

Any word on MUA's or AUA's application status?

[Shiz77]

Or SMUs application??

[jonasp]

SMU on their behalf wants to get it right this time around so i can understand the waiting eventhough its killing them right now.I think just about every "deficiency" talked about in the cali report is ancient history.They shouldnt have a problem the next time around the only question is when is a good time to apply so that they can be reasonably sure they will get approved.Its not something the school can take lightly or attempt without being absolutely confident.

[Shiz77]

It takes a few years to get cali approved. I think SMU and MUA should apply already. It could be a race against time.

[kofi129]

Anyone think the schools with CA approval is probably pushing for bans in more states for non-approved CA schools? I am just speculating here, since it'll benefit most of these schools that have CA approval as more students will throng to their doors with improved MCAT scores looking for admissions. This will means more students to these 4 schools and more money in the school's coffers. Does anyone knows when MUA will apply for CA approval? I am actually from GA but do not really care about cali excepts that it's disapproval will have effect on other states I may like to practice.

[Shiz77]

That may be a possibiliy kofi but I doubt it, I think it's just the state boards are looking to show the carib schools who is boss. Also there are a number of real crappy schools in the carib, and unfotunately good schools such as MUA get lumped in with them. I believe asking the MUA admin would be the best course of action for this sort of thing.

[DoctorJ]

I think the big question is WHEN?

It is only a matter of time before ALL States adopt the CA list. It is less headache for them because supposedly CA has done all the homework for them. And they can say that they're more "confident" (whatever it means) in protecting their citizens.

But I'd agree. There are a lot of bad schools out there. But then, there are a few good doctors who went there for one reason or the other.

Internet schools should be banned, no question about it. But putting this issue aside, applicants should be evaluated on individual basis, taking into consideration his/her med school performances, training, board exams, LORs.

But this would again but too costly and too time consuming for each individual Board so they're just taking an easy way out but adopting the CA list.

When I went into this 10 years ago, people have already been saying get in quick and get out fast......

It is only a matter of time..........

[kofi129]

Let's wait and see. I really hope MUA, SMU, AUA and the other second tier schools get the CA approval quick but sometimes these investors are businessmen who wants the now as opposed to the later. I hope the new title IV loans get approve for most of the second tier school quick, as this will go a long way to help get CA approval as facilities will be put in place due more student gettting financial Aid and the school, of course, charging more for tuition. It all boils down to the FA for some of these school, as fee payments help in the school's development.

[kauquah]

It's not only Georgia, there are 2 other states looking into adopting the Cali list. I'm pretty sure it will happen in 2009 or 10.

Which other states are considering the CA list?

[AKF]

I think the big question is WHEN?

It is only a matter of time before ALL States adopt the CA list. It is less headache for them because supposedly CA has done all the homework for them. And they can say that they're more "confident" (whatever it means) in protecting their citizens.

But I'd agree. There are a lot of bad schools out there. But then, there are a few good doctors who went there for one reason or the other.

Internet schools should be banned, no question about it. But putting this issue aside, applicants should be evaluated on individual basis, taking into consideration his/her med school performances, training, board exams, LORs.

But this would again but too costly and too time consuming for each individual Board so they're just taking an easy way out but adopting the CA list.

When I went into this 10 years ago, people have already been saying get in quick and get out fast......

It is only a matter of time..........


The expansion of the use of the California List is do to the Carrib Schools failure to self regulate. The explosion of the number of schools in the last 10 years and the lack of standardizing governing body. If the Carib schools would have formed a body of standards in a similiar mold to the LCME this would not be an issue. It became so anybody with a building in the Carib could start a med school almost. The short term business gain was driving it instead of longterm security of high standard.

The future of all Carib schools beyond the Big 4 who have Federal loans and CA approval are in peril. The financial crisis is already going to thin the herd of Carib schools b/c it's not going away for years and even when it turns around Carib med schools are going to be the last to see the loan situation/crunch ease. The expansion of the CA list, which grows yearly will make it less feasible for many to go to non-approved CA schools b/c they will have limited practice opportunities. These combined factors of credit crunch and CA list will probably leave the Ross, AUC, Saba, SGU and probably another 3-4 schools. The ones that survive will be those that get CA approval(SMU I think will definitely and the rest are up for grabs, with AUA ans MUA as the next likely contenders). While Federal loans and CA approval are not linked I think those that get CA approval can use that as a item on their "resume" towards pushing for Federal loans as they have shown they have reached a certian standard of education. Unfortunately, the impending bust of Carib many medical schools is by their own fault of not seeking to regulate and now the US states are doing it by the CA list.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Probably from the time they submitted in their application (I am merely speculating) which meant students who started from that moment got the most benefit. I do believe all that information can be found in the CAMB website, I read it so log ago, I just can't remember exactly what it said and how it said it.



Rarely. However, didn't Saba have a 2 or 3 year retroactive clause?

I'm hoping that MUA's relationship with Saba will aid (somewhat) in the approval process.

I just pray all of this is taken care of before I head to any Medical school, Caribbean or not. :roll:

[Shiz77]

I believe Saba got theirs as a 2 year retroactive, which means anyone who entered 2 years prior to the approval was also covered.

[jonasp]

You have to take into account that the full evaluation can take up to 2 years as it did at smu. So if a school was granted approval students who attended the school from the beginning of the evaluation onward should at least be approved.

[Shiz77]

I think it takes about 3 years from the time of the application to full approval/disapproval.

[jonasp]

Either way the approval has to at least be retroactive to when the evaluation began.

[med etudiant]

Just contacted MUA today, and they reported that "California is in our long term plans, if California is a must for you, I suggest you apply to Saba."

[Shiz77]

Do they understand that it's not only California, it's the other states that keep on getting lumped w/ them??

[med etudiant]

She mentioned that "a handful" of other states use the list.

[Shiz77]

Well it is only a handful right now. These are the states: CA, ND, AK, AR, TN and NM.

Let us remove NM because they give you some leeway. It's the other states that might adopt it that worries me

[med etudiant]

Well it is only a handful right now. These are the states: CA, ND, AK, AR, TN and NM.

Let us remove NM because they give you some leeway. It's the other states that might adopt it that worries me

Very true. I would hold off on going to any school that doesnt have 50 state approval.

[med etudiant]

Tipton, can you give us any current news, on how the application is coming along?

[Shiz77]

He's too busy fighting for the Palestinian cause on VMD ;) (I kiiid Tippy)

[AKF]

She mentioned that "a handful" of other states use the list.

The schools are going to try to make it seem like a small thing and nothing to worry about, but it is going to be huge in the future with the current trends. Any school that isn't approved has to b/c it's in their self interest to de-emphasize CA list. In actuality they should be making steps to get CA approval but most aren't and never will.

Some people in medicine have a strong bias against Carib schools and if they really wanted to, all but the big 4 could be out of business or nearly strangle them over time if they promote the CA list. Who is on the state medical boards and their feelings/biases towards Carib schools is going to be increasingly important. There are enough FMG's that closing all but the CA Carib schools would not cause a blip on the residency pool.

[med etudiant]

The schools are going to try to make it seem like a small thing and nothing to worry about, but it is going to be huge in the future with the current trends. Any school that isn't approved has to b/c it's in their self interest to de-emphasize CA list. In actuality they should be making steps to get CA approval but most aren't and never will.

Some people in medicine have a strong bias against Carib schools and if they really wanted to, all but the big 4 could be out of business or nearly strangle them over time if they promote the CA list. Who is on the state medical boards and their feelings/biases towards Carib schools is going to be increasingly important. There are enough FMG's that closing all but the CA Carib schools would not cause a blip on the residency pool.

Very true.

If I remember corectly, AUA has submited their application.

MUA has yet to, but is (and has) been improving the University.

[Shiz77]

MUA will not apply until they're very sure that they will get it. It is the nature of the school.

[med etudiant]

MUA will not apply until they're very sure that they will get it. It is the nature of the school.


True, and Dean T.

I really hope MUA gets Cali b/c I would love to learn under Dean T.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Ah, no, they are drinking the "everything is going to be fine" Kool-aid. That alone is a good reason to stay away from that school, their inability to forecast and be overly optimisitc.



Do they understand that it's not only California, it's the other states that keep on getting lumped w/ them??

[Wajaro]

Can anybody explain the difference between not being on the not approved CA list and being on the disapproved list for CA. How much harder/easier is it on the approved list if the school is disapproved vs. not approved?? Because SMU is disapproved

Welcome to the Medical Board of California - International Medical Schools Disapproved by the State of California (http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools_unapproved.html)

[davidMD]

also...doesn't a school have to have 10 yrs of graduates before CA approval...or is this urban legend? Also I think Indiana uses Cali as well...

[tampanian]

read this on the st matthews official forum: "Currently you can not get licensure in Georgia because of the California situation. if you graduated before Jan. 1st of 2008 you are grandfathered in and are fine."

anyone know if there's any truth to it?



St. Matthew's University, School of Medicine Official Forums :: View topic - List of States that Limit Licensure of SMU Grads! (http://smucayman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2436)

[Kronos]

I know a number of SMU grads there in GA in residency... I even interviewed there at a community program. I guess the grandfather clause works, but then why would programs continue to interview candidates if SMU was disapproved?

Confusing...

[Kronos]

Maybe GA just restricts full licensure for SMU grads while training licenses would be okay..?

[MDXRS22]

as long as they have something, it's better than nothing at all.

[AUCMD2006]

I know a number of SMU grads there in GA in residency... I even interviewed there at a community program. I guess the grandfather clause works, but then why would programs continue to interview candidates if SMU was disapproved?

Confusing...


takes time for the info to trickle down...the medical board doesn't advertise all changes loudly.

so programs and residents may not find out until their senior year of residency in internal medicine or fp. in ga imgs have to do 3 years of residency for full licensure so you typically apply about a month or so before then so thats when they woudl find out

-specialties that take longer than 3 years some programs we are required to get our full license as soon as possible and maybe also required for moonligting so if you are from a non cali school you get screwed for possibly not meeting the program requirements and not being able to moonlight

[jonasp]

takes time for the info to trickle down...the medical board doesn't advertise all changes loudly.

so programs and residents may not find out until their senior year of residency in internal medicine or fp. in ga imgs have to do 3 years of residency for full licensure so you typically apply about a month or so before then so thats when they woudl find out

-specialties that take longer than 3 years some programs we are required to get our full license as soon as possible and maybe also required for moonligting so if you are from a non cali school you get screwed for possibly not meeting the program requirements and not being able to moonlight

Thats absolutely correct.In fact that point bit smu students last year.Several students prematched at certain programs only to find out later the state board wouldnt give them temporary licenses for residency.The students as well as the hospitals were infuriated as they had no idea but nothing could be done.

[Kronos]

Several students prematched at certain programs only to find out later the state board wouldnt give them temporary licenses for residency.The students as well as the hospitals were infuriated as they had no idea but nothing could be done.

I was wondering if this situation ever arose. :shock: What a nightmare that must have been! A horrible thing to find out.

What about that one VMD poster who pre-matched in MA last year after they disapproved us? Did he ever get another spot? I can't seem to find that thread in a search...

[kauquah]

It's not only Georgia, there are 2 other states looking into adopting the Cali list. I'm pretty sure it will happen in 2009 or 10.

Anyone know which other states are looking into the Cali list?

[pvttimhall]

I was wondering if this situation ever arose. :shock: What a nightmare that must have been! A horrible thing to find out.

What about that one VMD poster who pre-matched in MA last year after they disapproved us? Did he ever get another spot? I can't seem to find that thread in a search...

As far as I know, there were two SMU grads that this happened to in MA last year. Husand and wife.. they ended up getting a FM spot somewhere else, in another state, of course.

If more states start following the Ca list, I think someone will eventually have to sue California or individual states. With Obama trying to increase healthcare, he can't do it without all the IMGs. The states should be careful or his administration will try to take state medical boards' rights away and go to a national medical licensing (could happen). The US schools don't have enough students to fill the need.. and if he increases healthcare coverage, our country will see a huge crash in the system, since it can't even keep up now. Imagine.. more people going to doctors, who are already too busy to see more pts.

As far as Georgia, they have a TON of IMGs in their residency programs. I don't see how a state like them can afford to take LESS doctors when they are already severely underserved. Some of their med schools will only take Ga residents, because they need more doctors to come in, and stay in the state.

I hope other states really think about what they are doing. The other solution... is to stop all these crap med schools from popping up every month. They are the reason states are scared now. But.. this is hte kicker for me.. some states won't even let foreign students rotate in their hospitals, which hinders them from getting a residency there.. so how is a state ever supposed to access how well a foreign school is doing, if they don't have exposure to their students?

At the end of the day... board scores SHOULD even out the first two years, after that.. if you completed all ACGME rotations.. and pass step 2 and CS.. what is a state's issue?

[Aviv Imanuel]

Good points, however your comment "The states should be careful or his administration will try to take state medical boards' rights away and go to a national medical licensing" is easier said than done. i don't see that happening anytime soon without hell breaking loose in Congress and a massive turnover on the next 2 congressional elections like it happened in 1994. That is if he wants to keep a senate and congress in Democrat hands.






As far as I know, there were two SMU grads that this happened to in MA last year. Husand and wife.. they ended up getting a FM spot somewhere else, in another state, of course.

If more states start following the Ca list, I think someone will eventually have to sue California or individual states. With Obama trying to increase healthcare, he can't do it without all the IMGs. The states should be careful or his administration will try to take state medical boards' rights away and go to a national medical licensing (could happen). The US schools don't have enough students to fill the need.. and if he increases healthcare coverage, our country will see a huge crash in the system, since it can't even keep up now. Imagine.. more people going to doctors, who are already too busy to see more pts.

As far as Georgia, they have a TON of IMGs in their residency programs. I don't see how a state like them can afford to take LESS doctors when they are already severely underserved. Some of their med schools will only take Ga residents, because they need more doctors to come in, and stay in the state.

I hope other states really think about what they are doing. The other solution... is to stop all these crap med schools from popping up every month. They are the reason states are scared now. But.. this is hte kicker for me.. some states won't even let foreign students rotate in their hospitals, which hinders them from getting a residency there.. so how is a state ever supposed to access how well a foreign school is doing, if they don't have exposure to their students?

At the end of the day... board scores SHOULD even out the first two years, after that.. if you completed all ACGME rotations.. and pass step 2 and CS.. what is a state's issue?

[nevisbutterfly]

Quote:
As far as Georgia, they have a TON of IMGs in their residency programs. I don't see how a state like them can afford to take LESS doctors when they are already severely underserved. Some of their med schools will only take Ga residents, because they need more doctors to come in, and stay in the state.


Well look at Arkansas they need doctors worse than GA does. AR has only ONE medical school and graduates less than 150 a year. Of that number only around 15 or so go into FP.
They adopted the CA list - cutting their nose off to despite their face.

[jonasp]

Quote:
As far as Georgia, they have a TON of IMGs in their residency programs. I don't see how a state like them can afford to take LESS doctors when they are already severely underserved. Some of their med schools will only take Ga residents, because they need more doctors to come in, and stay in the state.


Well look at Arkansas they need doctors worse than GA does. AR has only ONE medical school and graduates less than 150 a year. Of that number only around 15 or so go into FP.
They adopted the CA list - cutting their nose off to despite their face.

Its gonna change nevis. I really believe so. The california scrutinization is just to make sure the school is up to acceptable standards and prevent diploma mills.I am sure AUA MUA and SMU will be approved in due time. SMU was inspected in 2003-04 at that point the school just moved to grand cayman and was really not ready for the inspection. Its more a fault of the school than California. I would be really surprised if they dissaproved the school again.The school is well developed at this point. It sucks because of the ramifications today..but things are going to change.

[LqdPls]

.....The states should be careful or his administration will try to take state medical boards' rights away and go to a national medical licensing (could happen)....

Be careful now, neither Obama nor his administration have such power, and I hope they never will. The solution is quite simple I think. If I'm not mistaken there is a strong move right now towards establishing a regional Caribbean accrediting body with equivalency of power to the authority expressed by the LCME. Of course this is a loaded statement, as individual states, especially California for the purpose of this discussion, must first support, and more importantly be aware of the aforementioned initiative. Call individual medical boards and ask them about organizations such as ACCM or CAAM-HP, and I can almost guarantee that no one will have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Furthermore, California site visits within the Caribbean every 15 years or so, is at best a very loose interpretation of the duties performed by the LCME. Therefore, an organization should be established within the Caribbean whose sole purpose is to enforce quality control at least on a 5 year basis.

[AUCMD2006]

As far as I know, there were two SMU grads that this happened to in MA last year. Husand and wife.. they ended up getting a FM spot somewhere else, in another state, of course.

If more states start following the Ca list, I think someone will eventually have to sue California or individual states. With Obama trying to increase healthcare, he can't do it without all the IMGs. The states should be careful or his administration will try to take state medical boards' rights away and go to a national medical licensing (could happen). The US schools don't have enough students to fill the need.. and if he increases healthcare coverage, our country will see a huge crash in the system, since it can't even keep up now. Imagine.. more people going to doctors, who are already too busy to see more pts.

As far as Georgia, they have a TON of IMGs in their residency programs. I don't see how a state like them can afford to take LESS doctors when they are already severely underserved. Some of their med schools will only take Ga residents, because they need more doctors to come in, and stay in the state.

I hope other states really think about what they are doing. The other solution... is to stop all these crap med schools from popping up every month. They are the reason states are scared now. But.. this is hte kicker for me.. some states won't even let foreign students rotate in their hospitals, which hinders them from getting a residency there.. so how is a state ever supposed to access how well a foreign school is doing, if they don't have exposure to their students?

At the end of the day... board scores SHOULD even out the first two years, after that.. if you completed all ACGME rotations.. and pass step 2 and CS.. what is a state's issue?


some of your points may have been true a few years ago but you forget that there are a ton of new allopath and osteopath schools that have opened up and more planned including beumont in michigan virginia tech and so on around the country.

also most schools are expanding enrollment. the medical school where i am a resident at in ga has already increased enrollment by 30%each of the last 2 years and they are opening a satellite campus in 2011 60 miles away that will double the class size

eventually there will by a tipping point where the smaller schools may become irrelevant and sgu ross auc will have to return to their 1980's roots and scrape the bottom of the applicant pile again