Boycott the CA Approved & Unapproved Lists

[UHSADOC]

RE: California Ill Advised Approved & Unapproved Medical Schools

I wonder if there is any way to boycott CA Medical Board, or raise some concerns regarding the ill advised CA list of Approved and Unapproved medical schools ??

If Shangai Mai U and Bagdad U are "approved" then other Caribbean Schools that follow WFME and LCME standards might as well be, to say the least.

In my opinion MUA, SMU, St. James, St. Eustacious, Windsor, UHSA, AUA, St. Martinus, Spratan U, should ALL be approved, and reviewed based on USMLE students performance and education standards, NOT based on hidden political agenda.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Its not a hidden political agenda. Shangai Mai U and Bagdad U are approved because they are state sponsored or owned schools or state recognized schools made to train their own citizens, locals, natives, not OFFSHORE Medical schools open to cater mainly to US students not accepted in the US system. In other words, those schools and those countries don't train physicians to pass the USMLE or send them to our country. The state of CA approve them just in the case an immigrant from those countries arrive into the US at least they have a means to validate their credentials into the US system, same people they ask other requirements like the TOEFL test, visas, etc. Those schools must be in good standing in their own countries and have all the adequate acreditations within their countries. This has been explained extensively in the State Medical Licensing section of this website, look at it. Saying it's a hidden political agenda only reflects your lack of information on the subject.

People have even sued, UNSUCCESSFULLY the board. Results? More states have incorporated it, like adding fuel to a fire. So.....you may boycott and expect nothing in exchange or get a lawyer, sue them and loose like everyone else (not to be rude or anything). The CA medical board is very powerful, has lots of re$ources to fend off this kind of suits.







RE: California Ill Advised Approved & Unapproved Medical Schools

I wonder if there is any way to boycott CA Medical Board, or raise some concerns regarding the ill advised CA list of Approved and Unapproved medical schools ??

If Shangai Mai U and Bagdad U are "approved" then other Caribbean Schools that follow WFME and LCME standards might as well be, to say the least.

In my opinion MUA, SMU, St. James, St. Eustacious, Windsor, UHSA, AUA, St. Martinus, Spratan U, should ALL be approved, and reviewed based on USMLE students performance and education standards, NOT based on hidden political agenda.

[azskeptic]

in the absence of a national system to evaluate the med schools other boards are following the California list now and it is growing rapidly in terms of its importance. Bottom line: If your school can't meet California, you are taking a risky path in medical school.


Its not a hidden political agenda. Shangai Mai U and Bagdad U are approved because they are state sponsored or owned schools or state recognized schools made to train their own citizens, locals, natives, not OFFSHORE Medical schools open to cater mainly to US students not accepted in the US system. In other words, those schools and those countries don't train physicians to pass the USMLE or send them to our country. The state of CA approve them just in the case an immigrant from those countries arrive into the US at least they have a means to validate their credentials into the US system, same people they ask other requirements like the TOEFL test, visas, etc. Those schools must be in good standing in their own countries and have all the adequate acreditations within their countries. This has been explained extensively in the State Medical Licensing section of this website, look at it. Saying it's a hidden political agenda only reflects your lack of information on the subject.

People have even sued, UNSUCCESSFULLY the board. Results? More states have incorporated it, like adding fuel to a fire. So.....you may boycott and expect nothing in exchange or get a lawyer, sue them and loose like everyone else (not to be rude or anything). The CA medical board is very powerful, has lots of re$ources to fend off this kind of suits.

[UHSADOC]

This California list is biased:

It is the role of NBME or ECFMG to evaluate applicants based on performance in basic medical sciences and clinical sciences.

Evaluation should be individualized as per applicant, not medical school as a whole.

As a senior resident (3rd year) I can tell you that over the years I have seen good MDs from "bad" schools and Horrific MDs from GREAT north american schools, some even from California.

Now, I am mentoring few residents from Caribbean schools, St. James U, and St. Martinus U, both are GREAT MDs, and are "unapproved" in California, why ?? they both scored VERY well on the USMLE and are competent MDs. Let alone myself, graduated from UHSA, another "unapproved" medical school, yet I was awarded intern of the year in 2005.

[Aviv Imanuel]

I couldn't agree more Azkeptic. :D



in the absence of a national system to evaluate the med schools other boards are following the California list now and it is growing rapidly in terms of its importance. Bottom line: If your school can't meet California, you are taking a risky path in medical school.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Congratulations on you award. However, each state has their prerogatives and criteria. Some people will be displeased, as in your case, others won't. I suggest you to voice your concerns where it most matters, the CA legislature and government. Not that it's wrong to complaint here, since it helps you vent out the anger you have with them, but most of the old posters here, like me, we have been reading the same complaints since the days this was Network 54 in 1999, and CA has not changed a bit, on the contrary, more states are incorporating their list.




This California list is biased:

It is the role of NBME or ECFMG to evaluate applicants based on performance in basic medical sciences and clinical sciences.

Evaluation should be individualized as per applicant, not medical school as a whole.

As a senior resident (3rd year) I can tell you that over the years I have seen good MDs from "bad" schools and Horrific MDs from GREAT north american schools, some even from California.

Now, I am mentoring few residents from Caribbean schools, St. James U, and St. Martinus U, both are GREAT MDs, and are "unapproved" in California, why ?? they both scored VERY well on the USMLE and are competent MDs. Let alone myself, graduated from UHSA, another "unapproved" medical school, yet I was awarded intern of the year in 2005.

[Phrozen]

I couldn't agree more Azkeptic. :D

Ditto :cool:

[DOCplucinski]

how many more Cali threads do we need? we get the point...

[Phrozen]

how many more Cali threads do we need? we get the point...

lol, Seriously DOCp!

[Aviv Imanuel]

Mybe 3 or 4 more, for the new people who don't bother to search in the site because they "don't have the time" = lazyness.


how many more Cali threads do we need? we get the point...

[azskeptic]

what amazes me is the number of personal emails I get from people who claim they didn't know that their medical school was restricted in certain states,etc. How can people spend the amount of time, energy, and money and not research it? Amazing........AzSkeptic


Mybe 3 or 4 more, for the new people who don't bother to search in the site because they "don't have the time" = lazyness.

[DOCplucinski]

Mybe 3 or 4 more, for the new people who don't bother to search in the site because they "don't have the time" = lazyness.
i know that but mutiple threads from the same user?

[joe soap]

RE: California Ill Advised Approved & Unapproved Medical Schools

I wonder if there is any way to boycott CA Medical Board, or raise some concerns regarding the ill advised CA list of Approved and Unapproved medical schools ??

If Shangai Mai U and Bagdad U are "approved" then other Caribbean Schools that follow WFME and LCME standards might as well be, to say the least.

In my opinion MUA, SMU, St. James, St. Eustacious, Windsor, UHSA, AUA, St. Martinus, Spratan U, should ALL be approved, and reviewed based on USMLE students performance and education standards, NOT based on hidden political agenda.





....its misleading to dump MUA (NY approved & Title IV eligible soon) and AUA (NY approved & Title IV eligible soon) with that list ...these two schools are actively pursuing Cali and will most likely achieve it in the years to come...the others have no chance in the foreseeable future if ever at all...plus MUA & AUA are NOT on the disapproved list they are simply not yet evaluated....fighting Cali is like putting a Gremlin in a microwave or pouring water on it.....does'nt end well...

[RussianJoo]

It's impossible to boycott something that YOU want. Cali doesn't need Caribbean grads or IMGS/FMGS in general. There are plenty of US grads that want to live in Cali. Just like NYC, Cali's market is saturated with MDs. That's why they'll only certify certain schools. You won't change anything because you have nothing to offer the state of Cali that they want. So get over it and just practice in the approved states or reapply to a school that has Cali approval. No one forced you guys to go those schools, you knew from the start that they weren't approved by Cali and you won't be able to practice in Cali. So stop your whining and just deal with it.

[UHSADOC]

Not interested and never cared about practicing in CA. The "approved" and "dissaproved" list of Cali is political, there are hundreds of "non state" governed medical schools worldwide, that were not and probably will never be "evaluated" by CA officials, furthermore are inferior to the average Caribbean medical school.


It's impossible to boycott something that YOU want. Cali doesn't need Caribbean grads or IMGS/FMGS in general. There are plenty of US grads that want to live in Cali. Just like NYC, Cali's market is saturated with MDs. That's why they'll only certify certain schools. You won't change anything because you have nothing to offer the state of Cali that they want. So get over it and just practice in the approved states or reapply to a school that has Cali approval. No one forced you guys to go those schools, you knew from the start that they weren't approved by Cali and you won't be able to practice in Cali. So stop your whining and just deal with it.

[Phrozen]

Not interested and never cared about practicing in CA. The "approved" and "dissaproved" list of Cali is political, there are hundreds of "non state" governed medical schools worldwide, that were not and probably will never be "evaluated" by CA officials, furthermore are inferior to the average Caribbean medical school.

All schools are evaluated by the Cali medical board. This evaluation includes site visits.

Just because a school may be in a poor country does not mean that it is inferior to just any profit-making Carib school.

The safest bets are SGU, AUC, Ross, and Saba in the Carib because they have been approved.

[Phrozen]

It's impossible to boycott something that YOU want. Cali doesn't need Caribbean grads or IMGS/FMGS in general. There are plenty of US grads that want to live in Cali. Just like NYC, Cali's market is saturated with MDs. That's why they'll only certify certain schools. You won't change anything because you have nothing to offer the state of Cali that they want. So get over it and just practice in the approved states or reapply to a school that has Cali approval. No one forced you guys to go those schools, you knew from the start that they weren't approved by Cali and you won't be able to practice in Cali. So stop your whining and just deal with it.

Ditto. :cool:

[Aviv Imanuel]

YES indeed...fighting Cali is like putting a Gremlin in a microwave or pouring water on it.....doesn't end well



....its misleading to dump MUA (NY approved & Title IV eligible soon) and AUA (NY approved & Title IV eligible soon) with that list ...these two schools are actively pursuing Cali and will most likely achieve it in the years to come...the others have no chance in the foreseeable future if ever at all...plus MUA & AUA are NOT on the disapproved list they are simply not yet evaluated....fighting Cali is like putting a Gremlin in a microwave or pouring water on it.....does'nt end well...

[FOID]

lol. nice phrase... pouring water on a gremlin.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Ok, prove it is political? What is the vested interest from the CMB that makes it political?


Not interested and never cared about practicing in CA. The "approved" and "dissaproved" list of Cali is political, there are hundreds of "non state" governed medical schools worldwide, that were not and probably will never be "evaluated" by CA officials, furthermore are inferior to the average Caribbean medical school.

[drforlife]

The user that said they visit every school, have no idea what he/she is saying...... People argued that maybe the approved school - big 3 -possible could be sponsoring ( financially) the board to keep the list and make the process almost impossible... but hey Saba got in..! So it's all speculation. It is a sensitive issue, because it is true that many doctors from schools not in their list are better doctors than some coming form listed schools....

[UHSADOC]

Couldn't agree more my friend !, The CMB doesn't have the budget or time to "site visit" EVERY school ;), hence political agenda. Many of my classmates, and current residents from other Carib Med Schools, scored higher on boards than other IMGs in my program.

The user that said they visit every school, have no idea what he/she is saying...... People argued that maybe the approved school - big 3 -possible could be sponsoring ( financially) the board to keep the list and make the process almost impossible... but hey Saba got in..! So it's all speculation. It is a sensitive issue, because it is true that many doctors from schools not in their list are better doctors than some coming form listed schools....

[LqdPls]

Its not a hidden political agenda. Shangai Mai U and Bagdad U are approved because they are state sponsored or owned schools or state recognized schools made to train their own citizens, locals, natives......

This means nothing, especially that there are many parts of the world where state sponsored or owned institutions are unfortunately overwhelmed by corruption. On the contrary, there is not a single legitemate Caribbean medical school, which would not be willing to open their doors to CMB tomorrow, or any other inspection committee. Furthermore, the LCME should be actively involved in some type of regulation of medical schools located within a 1000 mile radius from the southern most point of Florida.

[Aviv Imanuel]

That doesn't prove is a political agenda and you fail to see a simple thing:

Caribean Medical schools, with the exception of UWI are 2nd and 3rd tier school made to accomodate American students that have been rejected in their country, USA. On the other side, the rest of the foreign schools listed that California does not need to visit are made to train LOCAL doctors for their own population, not to be exported or loss to the US system, reason why they don't have to visit. Furthermore, most Caribbean schools are charted in places where their grads are not even welcomed to practice medicine, you don't get that with the so called inferior shools you guys are trying to unsuccessfully point out in your argument. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT with the CMB. As I said, you may try to sue them and see what happens. Here in VMD, nothing will make them change. Your whole argument about corruption, well, corruption happens everywhere, that does not validate nor invalidate your argument, it is subject to speculation.


Couldn't agree more my friend !, The CMB doesn't have the budget or time to "site visit" EVERY school ;), hence political agenda. Many of my classmates, and current residents from other Carib Med Schools, scored higher on boards than other IMGs in my program.

[UHSADOC]

I guess time will tell......I think Carib MDs will prove themselves over the years in US clinicals or as residents....Many States are now looking at SGU, ROSS and AUC grads as if they graduated from a US medical school....they proved themselves in the past 20 years.....Same will follow in my opinion to the other good caribbean medical schools......

[RussianJoo]

I guess time will tell......I think Carib MDs will prove themselves over the years in US clinicals or as residents....Many States are now looking at SGU, ROSS and AUC grads as if they graduated from a US medical school....they proved themselves in the past 20 years.....Same will follow in my opinion to the other good caribbean medical schools......

i don't think it will be the case.. I remember reading something about how lenders are pulling out from some carib schools and it's getting tougher to get loans. Also new DO and MD schools are being opened in the US every year, also some US MD school are increasing their class sizes. I think the US is trying to switch from IMG's to DO's. I personally believe that it's going to be tougher and tougher to get residency placement as an IMG, especially if you want to do a specialty. the number of residencies isn't growing but the number of grads is increasing tremendously. a lot of the carib schools take sub-par applicants and those people have a very tough time passing the boards, often having to take multiple attempts to pass. schools like SGU, ROSS, AUC and maybe SABA will still do ok in placement just because they have a lot of grads that are now attendings at a lot of hospitals around the country and because of that the schools are well known. but other unknown schools will have a very hard time matching their residents, they already have a very hard time finding green booked rotations for their students, and without green booked rotations it's almost impossible to get licensed in a lot of the states.

[RussianJoo]

That doesn't prove is a political agenda and you fail to see a simple thing:

Caribean Medical schools, with the exception of UWI are 2nd and 3rd tier school made to accomodate American students that have been rejected in their country, USA. On the other side, the rest of the foreign schools listed that California does not need to visit are made to train LOCAL doctors for their own population, not to be exported or loss to the US system, reason why they don't have to visit. Furthermore, most Caribbean schools are charted in places where their grads are not even welcomed to practice medicine, you don't get that with the so called inferior shools you guys are trying to unsuccessfully point out in your argument. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT with the CMB. As I said, you may try to sue them and see what happens. Here in VMD, nothing will make them change. Your whole argument about corruption, well, corruption happens everywhere, that does not validate nor invalidate your argument, it is subject to speculation.

i totally agree with your statement. the only reason why CMB had to ban those carib schools is because their grads will want to practice in Cali and carib schools with the exception of UWI , like mentioned above, train their students to work in the USA. that's why cali had to ban them because they knew if they wouldn't those sub-par grads would be knocking on their doors asking to get licensed. On the other hand they know that graduates of pakistan medical college or whatever other med school that's on their list will most likely want to practice in pakistan and not move to the US. and also it would be so hard for them to move to the US and get a hospital to sponser their visa that there's no point in banning them.

[Shiz77]

that's why cali had to ban them because they knew if they wouldn't those sub-par grads would be knocking on their doors asking to get licensed.

I find it humorous that you classify all the graduates of a school as sub-par just because it doesn't have cali approval.

On the other hand they know that graduates of pakistan medical college or whatever other med school that's on their list will most likely want to practice in pakistan and not move to the US. and also it would be so hard for them to move to the US and get a hospital to sponser their visa that there's no point in banning them.

So many doctors around the world dream of working for the US, 25% of American MDs are IMGs. So many of them come to the US just to write the Steps and get into the program, from India especially. There are even hundreds of Canadians at Saba and St. George getting J1s,residencies and even H1s.

Although I disagree with a lot said in your post I think the Cali approval is a good thing as it ensures some sort of standard with Caribbean med schools.

[RussianJoo]

I find it humorous that you classify all the graduates of a school as sub-par just because it doesn't have cali approval.



So many doctors around the world dream of working for the US, 25% of American MDs are IMGs. So many of them come to the US just to write the Steps and get into the program, from India especially. There are even hundreds of Canadians at Saba and St. George getting J1s,residencies and even H1s.

Although I disagree with a lot said in your post I think the Cali approval is a good thing as it ensures some sort of standard with Caribbean med schools.

I consider other schools sub par not because they don't have Cali approval but because they accept sub-par students into their programs. People with below 3.0 GPA's and below 20 on the mcat are the stats of many people attending these Sub-Par medical schools. Doctors are supposed to be smart and knowledgeable, and there have to be some standards. Just because a person wants to be a doctor doesn't mean they should become a doctor. And if someone can't do well in undergrad what makes them think they can do well in medical school and actually be responsible for a person's life. Would you want the doctor who's treating your mother to have had a 2.6 gpa in undergrad and med school and had to take the boards multiple times to pass? I wouldn't, and neither do the people of california. Also those sub-par schools that I am talking about are truly sub-par because less than 50% of 1st time takers of the USMLE Step1 actually pass the exam. I am not making that number up it's posted in that article published by the AAMC. Those schools didn't become sub-par because the state of California isn't granting their graduates a license to practice, it's because they were sub-par from the very beginning that the state of calirofnia decided to ban them.

[UHSADOC]

I don't think the US is going to "Switch" DOs to IMGs ;) that is a VERY ill advised statement. The only thing that is happening with the DO profession is the placement of clerkship and residency, many Allopathic hospitals are "purchasing" DO hospitals, but the discipline remains "Osteopathic" at large.

Furthermore, Correction:
1. Increased enrollment maybe....new medical schools ?? where and when ?? last time I checked AMSA # of US medical schools did not change in the past several years.
2. Even if it will, the % of population increase, due to immigration and birth rate.
3. Increase in baby boomers & related diseases (HTN, DM etc.)
4. There is a HUGE physicians and RN's shortage worldwide, especially in the US.
5.The # of residency spots will INCREASE to meet demand, in addition, it is a business anyway you look at it......cheaper to have a resident than a board certified MD.

The Good Caribbean medical schools will do just fine, the poor will remain poor, or shut down due to lack of enrollment or funding.



i don't think it will be the case.. I remember reading something about how lenders are pulling out from some carib schools and it's getting tougher to get loans. Also new DO and MD schools are being opened in the US every year, also some US MD school are increasing their class sizes. I think the US is trying to switch from IMG's to DO's. I personally believe that it's going to be tougher and tougher to get residency placement as an IMG, especially if you want to do a specialty. the number of residencies isn't growing but the number of grads is increasing tremendously. a lot of the carib schools take sub-par applicants and those people have a very tough time passing the boards, often having to take multiple attempts to pass. schools like SGU, ROSS, AUC and maybe SABA will still do ok in placement just because they have a lot of grads that are now attendings at a lot of hospitals around the country and because of that the schools are well known. but other unknown schools will have a very hard time matching their residents, they already have a very hard time finding green booked rotations for their students, and without green booked rotations it's almost impossible to get licensed in a lot of the states.

[RussianJoo]

So many doctors around the world dream of working for the US, 25% of American MDs are IMGs. So many of them come to the US just to write the Steps and get into the program, from India especially. There are even hundreds of Canadians at Saba and St. George getting J1s,residencies and even H1s.



Yes hundreds of graduates from those schools have gotten J1 and H1 visas but thousands have not. Also I don't consider those schools to be sub-par. How many graduates have gotten a J1 or H1 visa from a school that's not approved by cali? probably a very small amount. Sure a couple of the graduates from the schools will do well but the majority will not only have to retake the steps multiple time to pass but will have a very hard time getting a US residency. Also I have spoken to a few residents that have stated that if you need a visa their program will simply reject your application no matter what your stats are. And I have spoken to multiple Canadaian students at SGU and they have told me that they're applying to Family practice and Internal medicine programs because no specialty will sponser them for a visa. It costs the hospital time and money to sponser someone for a visa. why would they want to do that when there are hunderds of applicants with the same exact stats and don't require a visa sponsership.

[RussianJoo]

I don't think the US is going to "Switch" DOs to IMGs ;) that is a VERY ill advised statement. The only thing that is happening with the DO profession is the placement of clerkship and residency, many Allopathic hospitals are "purchasing" DO hospitals, but the discipline remains "Osteopathic" at large.

Furthermore, Correction:
1. Increased enrollment maybe....new medical schools ?? where and when ?? last time I checked AMSA # of US medical schools did not change in the past several years.
2. Even if it will, the % of population increase, due to immigration and birth rate.
3. Increase in baby boomers & related diseases (HTN, DM etc.)
4. There is a HUGE physicians and RN's shortage worldwide, especially in the US.
5.The # of residency spots will INCREASE to meet demand, in addition, it is a business anyway you look at it......cheaper to have a resident than a board certified MD.

The Good Caribbean medical schools will do just fine, the poor will remain poor, or shut down due to lack of enrollment or funding.

Ok here's a list of brand new Allopathic medical schools opening in the USA.
California University of California, Merced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Merced) School of Medicine Fresno Fall 2012
California University of California, Riverside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Riverside) School of Medicine Riverside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside,_California) Fall 2013
California The Scripps School of Medicine[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States#cite_ note-0) at TSRI La Jolla MD/PhD Under Discussion
Idaho University of Idaho Boise MD Under Discussion
Michigan Oakland University Beaumont Medical School Rochester Fall 2010
New Jersey Touro University College of Medicine Hackensack Fall 2010,
New York Hofstra University School of Medicine Hempstead Fall 2010 or 2011
Pennsylvania The Commonwealth Medical College (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Commonwealth_Medical_College&action=edit&redlink=1) Scranton Fall 2009,
Virginia Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine Roanoke Fall 2010

There are also a list of DO schools that's being opened in the near future. and here's a link to a full list of DO and MD schools in the US. List of medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[RussianJoo]

I don't think the US is going to "Switch" DOs to IMGs ;) that is a VERY ill advised statement. The only thing that is happening with the DO profession is the placement of clerkship and residency, many Allopathic hospitals are "purchasing" DO hospitals, but the discipline remains "Osteopathic" at large.

Furthermore, Correction:
1. Increased enrollment maybe....new medical schools ?? where and when ?? last time I checked AMSA # of US medical schools did not change in the past several years.
2. Even if it will, the % of population increase, due to immigration and birth rate.
3. Increase in baby boomers & related diseases (HTN, DM etc.)
4. There is a HUGE physicians and RN's shortage worldwide, especially in the US.
5.The # of residency spots will INCREASE to meet demand, in addition, it is a business anyway you look at it......cheaper to have a resident than a board certified MD.

The Good Caribbean medical schools will do just fine, the poor will remain poor, or shut down due to lack of enrollment or funding.


DO's are taking over because now as a DO you can do whatever specialty and whatever resdiency you want as long as you take the USMLE, in the past this wasn't the case, and DO's were stuck doing DO only residencies, which were mostly primary care.

Also you're right there's a shortage of doctors in the US, but there's only a shortage in places where no one wants to live and work like the middle of the country, in California, NY, NJ and many other coast states there's no shortage and in fact the market is over saturated with doctors, that shortage will never change because no one in their right mind wants to live there. Also the shortage is in primary care, but most graduates don't want to be a primary care doc they want to specialize and there's no shortage of specialists in this country.

Lastly you said that there's going to be an increase in residencies. Can you please show my some evidence of that? I showed you specific proof of new MD and DO schools that are going to be accepting students in 2009 and in the near future. Please show me proof that the number of residencies will increase accordingly. I am very certain that the US is trying it's hardest to not take img's or fmg's into their residency programs. and pretty soon the only residency programs that will allow imgs and fmgs will be primary care such as Family practice and Internal medicine. My theory is also proven by the fact that US graduates need much lower board scores to get accepted into the same residency programs as forgiegn grads.

[Aviv Imanuel]

"Those schools didn't become sub-par because the state of California isn't granting their graduates a license to practice, it's because they were sub-par from the very beginning that the state of calirofnia decided to ban them"

Yes, it can be interpreted as one of the reasons.



I consider other schools sub par not because they don't have Cali approval but because they accept sub-par students into their programs. People with below 3.0 GPA's and below 20 on the mcat are the stats of many people attending these Sub-Par medical schools. Doctors are supposed to be smart and knowledgeable, and there have to be some standards. Just because a person wants to be a doctor doesn't mean they should become a doctor. And if someone can't do well in undergrad what makes them think they can do well in medical school and actually be responsible for a person's life. Would you want the doctor who's treating your mother to have had a 2.6 gpa in undergrad and med school and had to take the boards multiple times to pass? I wouldn't, and neither do the people of california. Also those sub-par schools that I am talking about are truly sub-par because less than 50% of 1st time takers of the USMLE Step1 actually pass the exam. I am not making that number up it's posted in that article published by the AAMC. Those schools didn't become sub-par because the state of California isn't granting their graduates a license to practice, it's because they were sub-par from the very beginning that the state of calirofnia decided to ban them.

[Aviv Imanuel]

"4. There is a HUGE physicians and RN's shortage worldwide, especially in the US. "

That depends. As russianjoo points out, in big cities might not be the case, in rural areas yes because almost nobody wants to practice there. On a related note, Cuba is exporting doctors like hotcakes.








I don't think the US is going to "Switch" DOs to IMGs ;) that is a VERY ill advised statement. The only thing that is happening with the DO profession is the placement of clerkship and residency, many Allopathic hospitals are "purchasing" DO hospitals, but the discipline remains "Osteopathic" at large.

Furthermore, Correction:
1. Increased enrollment maybe....new medical schools ?? where and when ?? last time I checked AMSA # of US medical schools did not change in the past several years.
2. Even if it will, the % of population increase, due to immigration and birth rate.
3. Increase in baby boomers & related diseases (HTN, DM etc.)
4. There is a HUGE physicians and RN's shortage worldwide, especially in the US.
5.The # of residency spots will INCREASE to meet demand, in addition, it is a business anyway you look at it......cheaper to have a resident than a board certified MD.

The Good Caribbean medical schools will do just fine, the poor will remain poor, or shut down due to lack of enrollment or funding.

[UHSADOC]

Most of these schools are not even operational yet...;)
I wonder what the tuition will be like ??

Most Carib schools are hiking tuition prices like crazy.....better re-take the MCAT and re-apply to US schools then....guaranteed top residency even with average USMLEs....

[RussianJoo]

Most of these schools are not even operational yet...;)
I wonder what the tuition will be like ??

Most Carib schools are hiking tuition prices like crazy.....better re-take the MCAT and re-apply to US schools then....guaranteed top residency even with average USMLEs....


they will start to open next year.

how are carib schools hiking up tuition when they're losing government issued loans and other lenders left and right, no one will be able to afford to go there. and with step1 and 2 pass rates below 50% I don't know why anyone would want to go there anyway.

[UHSADOC]

No need to be insulting or name calling...here !! please amend or I will report to the admin !

they will start to open next year.

and what I put in bold is the only smart thing you've said on this thread thus far.

how are carib schools hiking up tuition when they're losing government issued loans and other lenders left and right, no one will be able to afford to go there. and with step1 and 2 pass rates below 50% I don't know why anyone would want to go there anyway.

[RussianJoo]

No need to be insulting or name calling...here !! please amend or I will report to the admin !

done, no need to get big brother involved.

[Shiz77]

I consider other schools sub par not because they don't have Cali approval but because they accept sub-par students into their programs. People with below 3.0 GPA's and below 20 on the mcat are the stats of many people attending these Sub-Par medical schools. Doctors are supposed to be smart and knowledgeable, and there have to be some standards. Just because a person wants to be a doctor doesn't mean they should become a doctor. And if someone can't do well in undergrad what makes them think they can do well in medical school and actually be responsible for a person's life. Would you want the doctor who's treating your mother to have had a 2.6 gpa in undergrad and med school and had to take the boards multiple times to pass? I wouldn't, and neither do the people of california. Also those sub-par schools that I am talking about are truly sub-par because less than 50% of 1st time takers of the USMLE Step1 actually pass the exam. I am not making that number up it's posted in that article published by the AAMC. Those schools didn't become sub-par because the state of California isn't granting their graduates a license to practice, it's because they were sub-par from the very beginning that the state of calirofnia decided to ban them.

You're using the same arguement an American/Canadian medical school grad would use on you, except instead of saying a 3.0 is the basic standard necessary, they would say a 3.5 or a 3.6. In the end if a person passes the boards, does well in med school, are ECFMG certified and finish their residency, it shouldn't really matter what their undergrad GPA was.

[RussianJoo]

You're using the same arguement an American/Canadian medical school grad would use on you, except instead of saying a 3.0 is the basic standard necessary, they would say a 3.5 or a 3.6. In the end if a person passes the boards, does well in med school, are ECFMG certified and finish their residency, it shouldn't really matter what their undergrad GPA was.

you're right i am. in that case i retract my statement and say that if you are a US citizen and didn't get into a US school you're considered sub par. That's why when it comes to residency placement, IMGs need to get much better board scores to be even considered for the same residencies as US grads. Also this is why top residency programs won't even look at your applications if you're an IMG. Call me a hypocrit or a slef-hater but there are a lot of people in the caribbean that should not be MDs.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Folks, bear in mind GPA is just a parameter used to select candidates but it does not necessarily translate into eventually becoming a physician, there are many other things involved. In the US they use an average of 3.5 or 3.6 to admit, the private Caribbean schools much lower, yet the private Caribbean schools have produced a plethora of competent licensed physicians throughout the last 30 years that would have never had a chance under the US system. Let's give credit were it's deserved. Also each candidate is unique.




You're using the same arguement an American/Canadian medical school grad would use on you, except instead of saying a 3.0 is the basic standard necessary, they would say a 3.5 or a 3.6. In the end if a person passes the boards, does well in med school, are ECFMG certified and finish their residency, it shouldn't really matter what their undergrad GPA was.

[Shiz77]

And in Canada much higher, most med students are between 3.8-3.9, and aren't any more competent than American doctors.

[LqdPls]

You're using the same arguement an American/Canadian medical school grad would use on you, except instead of saying a 3.0 is the basic standard necessary, they would say a 3.5 or a 3.6. In the end if a person passes the boards, does well in med school, are ECFMG certified and finish their residency, it shouldn't really matter what their undergrad GPA was.

Let us also not forget that the Caribbean medical school market was built on the backs of the 3.0 GPA and 20 MCAT students. Furthermore, if it wasnt possible to turn those "rejects" into doctors, or perhaps find enough desperate and crazy kids back in the day who would attend a school teaching classes out of a rented hotel, schools like Ross and SGU wouldnt even exist today. BTW, there are people in the US medical education circle who will tell you that if you cant score at least a 30 on the MCAT, you shouldnt even think about medical school. But in the Caribbean, the message is very simple. They told you you were sub-par, but you think you can be a doctor, well then PROVE it!!!!...........the American dream in a nutshell.

[LqdPls]

... Call me a hypocrit......there are people in the caribbean that should not be MDs.

Well as you wish, "hypocrit", hence perhaps you are one of them. But you dont believe that, therefore you were granted an opportunity to prove otherwise. Many are no different than you.

[RussianJoo]

Well as you wish, "hypocrit", hence perhaps you are one of them. But you dont believe that, therefore you were granted an opportunity to prove otherwise. Many are no different than you.

maybe i don't...


ohh and Caribbean schools are just in it to make money. they don't really give a crap if you succeed as a doctor, as long as you pay your tuition on time that's all they care about. That's why as long as you have a good credit score or a lot of money in the bank account you'll always find a caribbean school that will accept you.

[UHSADOC]

Most non state sponsored even US private medical schools are for profit, so don't kid yourself......
If you want to become a doctor, focus on board scores and good clinical experience,
Caribbean medical schools may help you as well, if the US doesn't work for you....and YES they are all for profit...LOL

[Shiz77]

The school where I got my undergrad degree was all about profit, and it's supposed to be one of the top 5 schools in Canada, such is the nature of modern economics.

[diogenes]

Most non state sponsored even US private medical schools are for profit, so don't kid yourself......
If you want to become a doctor, focus on board scores and good clinical experience,
Caribbean medical schools may help you as well, if the US doesn't work for you....and YES they are all for profit...LOL
I had understood from something I read a long time ago that the LCME did not accredit "for profit" schools - and hence some hullabaloo about a new DO for profit school?
Therein, of course, lies the rub - even if there are for-profit American schools (and I recognize that there are motives of self-interest and self-aggrandizement amongst even the most august "not-for-profit" institutions) they have a recognized accreditation system. No USMLE etc. without LCME (or Ost. equivalent). Makes the CMB attitude seem quite logical and reasonable?

[UHSADOC]

Hence, ALL schools are for profit, one way or another the tuition money HAS to go somewhere !!
Unless we are looking at countries like France where for the french citizens, the tuition is FREE !! Even in medical schools !!
Pure socialism........US is capitalistic, so there is really no such thing as non for profit education !! ;)
Cheers ;)

[nevisbutterfly]

http://www.armedicalboard.org/professional/EGTYBVCW/ORMPVBRYM/PDF/MD_AppPack.pdf
Arkansas list taken from CA


My story and my efforts to change their mind - printed today.
Physician Questions Medical Board's Blacklisting School on Arkansas Medical News Inc. (http://www.medicalnewsofarkansas.com/news.php?viewStory=705)

[Aviv Imanuel]

This statement is catching..."questions why the state has adopted California's list and points out that being certified is a costly process. Medical University hasn't been rejected – it just hasn't started the process in California, and it has gotten seals of approval elsewhere, including the World Health Organization and other states such as New York, which is considered along with California to have the most effective certification program. Its sister school, Saba University School of Medicine, has been approved."

First and foremost, the WHO DOES NOT accredit schools, they merely list whatever the country tells them they have, a very different process than accreditation. I am familiar with the process of accreditation, and it can be daunting.

Second, New York accredits only for clinical rotations, any graduate from schools not listed in the famous New York approval schools can still get licensed in the state of New York, I know of several.

Last but not least, it does not matter if their sister school is CA approved, that does not give an automatic blank check for accrediting another school under the same conglomerate. CA still has to go and do an independent evaluation of the new facilities, etc. Best example, Ross is owned by Devry and that does not automatically grant it acrredited status in the USA under the LCME.

Fourth...."why she could practice at a Veterans Administration hospital in Arkansas or at the Little Rock Air Force Base with her education, but can't practice civilian medicine"
Easy to answer, there is separation of powers, the Sate of Arkansas, or any state for that matter, cannot dictate who gets employed in what is considered Federal land to the Federal Government. As long as the practice is limited to Federal facilities within the scope of your employment. The moment you open shop outside you Federal umbrella you will be practicing medicine without a license in the State of Arkansas and can be prosecuted for such.

If you are arguing your case based on the aforementioned points, then you are presenting a weak basis for your case, sorry. You will have to appeal to the board, with legal counsel preferably and argue that your education is comparable with that of a CA approved school, if the Arkansas medical board grants that exception, or like in some states is defined as "on a case by case" basis.

Good luck.




http://www.armedicalboard.org/professional/EGTYBVCW/ORMPVBRYM/PDF/MD_AppPack.pdf
Arkansas list taken from CA


My story and my efforts to change their mind - printed today.
Physician Questions Medical Board's Blacklisting School on Arkansas Medical News Inc. (http://www.medicalnewsofarkansas.com/news.php?viewStory=705)

[azskeptic]

Good post Genossa. Also anyone can feel free to boycott the list. Just don't apply to the states that use it but with the increasing amount of states looking for help in assessing offshore schools it may be a serious mistake to go to a school that isn't on the list.

This statement is catching..."questions why the state has adopted California's list and points out that being certified is a costly process. Medical University hasn't been rejected – it just hasn't started the process in California, and it has gotten seals of approval elsewhere, including the World Health Organization and other states such as New York, which is considered along with California to have the most effective certification program. Its sister school, Saba University School of Medicine, has been approved."

First and foremost, the WHO DOES NOT accredit schools, they merely list whatever the country tells them they have, a very different process than accreditation. I am familiar with the process of accreditation, and it can be daunting.

Second, New York accredits only for clinical rotations, any graduate from schools not listed in the famous New York approval schools can still get licensed in the state of New York, I know of several.

Last but not least, it does not matter if their sister school is CA approved, that does not give an automatic blank check for accrediting another school under the same conglomerate. CA still has to go and do an independent evaluation of the new facilities, etc. Best example, Ross is owned by Devry and that does not automatically grant it acrredited status in the USA under the LCME.

If you are arguing your case based on the aforementioned points, then you are presenting a weak basis for your case, sorry. You will have to appeal to the board, with legal counsel preferably and argue that your education is comparable with that of a CA approved school, if the Arkansas medical board grants that exception, or like in some states is defined as "on a case by case" basis.

Good luck.

[Shiz77]

UNIBE was not disapproved by Arkansas, UNIBE does not have CA approval...what gives?

[nevisbutterfly]

ValueMD Medical Schools Forum - View Single Post - Don't bother applying to AR (http://www.valuemd.com/973454-post4.html)

The link to the above post tells you how desperate some hospitals are in Arkansas to secure a doctor in their area.... to the point of hiring a convicted pediophile felon or close the hospital.

The medical board in Arkansas are self serving people and have not taken the in account the shortage of doctors in many areas. They are willing to let hospital's close and people suffer because of their narrow minded unfounded beliefs.
NWAnews.com :: Northwest Arkansas' News Source (http://nwanews.com/adg/National/218727)
Ark. hospital will close - job offered to convicted felon (pediophile)
82 year old doc comes out of retirement to work in hospital to keep it open. Interesting article.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Ok, but still that is their policy, you can either influence the Arkansas legislature to change that or litigate your cause in court, both will definitely add up in cost for you PLUS you have to factor in you probabilities of winning. Unfortunately, the reality for US FMG's is that they must exercise extreme care and be very diligent when in comes to choose a medical school. Sorry to hear that.




ValueMD Medical Schools Forum - View Single Post - Don't bother applying to AR (http://www.valuemd.com/973454-post4.html)

The link to the above post tells you how desperate some hospitals are in Arkansas to secure a doctor in their area.... to the point of hiring a convicted pediophile felon or close the hospital.

The medical board in Arkansas are self serving people and have not taken the in account the shortage of doctors in many areas. They are willing to let hospital's close and people suffer because of their narrow minded unfounded beliefs.
NWAnews.com :: Northwest Arkansas' News Source (http://nwanews.com/adg/National/218727)
Ark. hospital will close - job offered to convicted felon (pediophile)
82 year old doc comes out of retirement to work in hospital to keep it open. Interesting article.

[MDTry]

Nothing has to give. If it is not on the list then it is not approved and Ca/Ar will not give you a Lic.

UNIBE was not disapproved by Arkansas, UNIBE does not have CA approval...what gives?

[devildoc8404]

Nothing has to give. If it is not on the list then it is not approved and Ca/Ar will not give you a Lic.

Nothing has to "give," but the state can certainly change their policy. Nothing is written in stone.

If the folks in Arkansas are as hurting for docs as they seem to be, it could be a very prudent move...