Transferring out of SABA?

[Dr. N2012]

Hey guys....

as to my understanding Saba is one of the good Caribbean school. However, recently i heard many students are transferring out of Saba for some reasons?


Any comments as to why?

[KarmaInsight]

People gonna leave no matter what

[aspiringmedstudent]

When we had no loan options (the one we have now is pretty awful, but it's better than nothing) - I was thinking of transferring. The other "better" schools: SGU, AUC, and Ross have better loan options than we do.

I decided against it, especially after getting the new loan program. Unless you can get into SGU, Ross, or AUC, I don't think transferring is worth it. We are already discriminated against as a foreign medical student but moreso as a Caribbean student. Transferring is the worst thing a Caribbean student can do unless they are going up in the ladder. From my understanding, it's difficult to transfer up. It's doable though, but I think it definitely is determined on a case by case basis.

I wouldn't considerate it unless you can definitely go to the 3 above and you're prepared for a large backstep in your education. Most schools, whether they are the SGU, Ross, AUC or otherwise, will require you to complete certain classes on their campus.

If you've gotten through your basic sciences, or even up to 3rd semester, I would definitely think twice and thrice before transferring. Research it, too - because I think you'll find it will end up hurting you more in the long run.

I've heard stories of transfers getting a very hard time in interviews because of it. I've been told by a person on the admissions comittee of LSU residency program that they will not even interview a Caribbean medical school transferee no matter where their end destination. I can't completely validate this - but I've had a hard time finding information to prove it wrong.

[CrazyDiamond]

I'll try to present an unopinionated account of why students are/were considering transferring

- The school lost all its loan programs (we now have Ed-Invest loans)
- The school saw unprecedented failure rates in the first semester class (the first 3 histology exams yielded failing averages). Students were concerned because the school has recently increased enrollment greatly. There are worries that we have insufficient clincial spots and that the school is attempting to weed people out.
- The pathology course director, the most popular and best-liked professor at the school, was demoted in favor of a professor who students rate as very poor. As a result, the former professor quit. The replacement professor was fired from AUC.
-The said replacement professor's wife, also fired from AUC, was appointed as the dean of students. Most students are extremely dissatisfied with her performance on the job.
-Both the AUC-reject professors failed a very high percentage of students and did so as a matter of policy (they have gone on record to say that a certain percentage of students should always fail).

I should point out that 2 long schoolwide meetings were held including one with the Dean of Basic sciences to address students' concerns. The Dean has promised changes, so we'll have to wait and see if they materialize.

[Dr. N2012]

wow, that's really crazy of those professor to do such thing.....

[Experienced]

I'll try to present an unopinionated account of why students are/were considering transferring

- The school lost all its loan programs (we now have Ed-Invest loans)
- The school saw unprecedented failure rates in the first semester class (the first 3 histology exams yielded failing averages). Students were concerned because the school has recently increased enrollment greatly. There are worries that we have insufficient clincial spots and that the school is attempting to weed people out.
- The pathology course director, the most popular and best-liked professor at the school, was demoted in favor of a professor who students rate as very poor. As a result, the former professor quit. The replacement professor was fired from AUC.
-The said replacement professor's wife, also fired from AUC, was appointed as the dean of students. Most students are extremely dissatisfied with her performance on the job.
-Both the AUC-reject professors failed a very high percentage of students and did so as a matter of policy (they have gone on record to say that a certain percentage of students should always fail).

I should point out that 2 long schoolwide meetings were held including one with the Dean of Basic sciences to address students' concerns. The Dean has promised changes, so we'll have to wait and see if they materialize.

Slander
words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
defame: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone
--Princeton Online Dictionary

The similar thing written is also called libel.

Now boys and girls, gather 'round while Uncle Experienced (Are You Experienced?) tells you the difference between being 'fired' from a job and not having your contract renewed. Before I wax eloquent, however, let's agree that neither Uncle E nor you, his minions, knows the true circumstances of the movement from SXM to SAB (rdecastro & DF) of said professors.

Being 'fired' from a job can occur for many reasons and in many ways. These days, especially in The Academy, professors cannot just be let go because you don't like their shoes or their beard, or because you didn't get any last night. There has to be 'cause' and it needs to be good. My Experienced Guess is that neither of the former AUC professors did anything remotely related to 'cause.' For the thick amongst us: it is very doubtful that they were fired.

Now, in the real world there's this thing called politics. It's completely separate from one's job performance or merit or worth to the organisation or anything else..... it's 100% dependent on who happens to be The Big **** and how that person subjectively, not rationally, feels about you. Based on data ranging from subjectively barely defensible to purely out of their a** you might find yourself either in undeserved favor or undeserved disfavor. This is not just hypothetical, boys and girls -- some percentage of you reading this will find yourself one day in this very predicament if you haven't already been there.

You could be the inventor of the kurtev artificial heart thingy and if TBD doesn't like you, your life becomes sidetracked, and not in a good way. Now comes the possibility that 'your contract may not be renewed.' The higher percentile among you will have already caught my drift. You did nothing wrong but TBD just doesn't like you, the cut of your jib, the assertiveness you show in faculty meetings, your ideas that rock the boat, the fact that you spoke up and disagreed with TBD. Whatever. Voila, your contract isn't renewed.

Catch my drift? So can we drop the baloney (read: libel) about fired professors and move to a higher level, the level of empirical proof and all that scientific stuff we're supposed to be trained in?

Pretty please.

E.

-

[DoctorORG]

Slander
words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
defame: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone
--Princeton Online Dictionary

The similar thing written is also called libel.

Now boys and girls, gather 'round while Uncle Experienced (Are You Experienced?) tells you the difference between being 'fired' from a job and not having your contract renewed. Before I wax eloquent, however, let's agree that neither Uncle E nor you, his minions, knows the true circumstances of the movement from SXM to SAB (rdecastro & DF) of said professors.

Being 'fired' from a job can occur for many reasons and in many ways. These days, especially in The Academy, professors cannot just be let go because you don't like their shoes or their beard, or because you didn't get any last night. There has to be 'cause' and it needs to be good. My Experienced Guess is that neither of the former AUC professors did anything remotely related to 'cause.' For the thick amongst us: it is very doubtful that they were fired.

Now, in the real world there's this thing called politics. It's completely separate from one's job performance or merit or worth to the organisation or anything else..... it's 100% dependent on who happens to be The Big **** and how that person subjectively, not rationally, feels about you. Based on data ranging from subjectively barely defensible to purely out of their a** you might find yourself either in undeserved favor or undeserved disfavor. This is not just hypothetical, boys and girls -- some percentage of you reading this will find yourself one day in this very predicament if you haven't already been there.

You could be the inventor of the kurtev artificial heart thingy and if TBD doesn't like you, your life becomes sidetracked, and not in a good way. Now comes the possibility that 'your contract may not be renewed.' The higher percentile among you will have already caught my drift. You did nothing wrong but TBD just doesn't like you, the cut of your jib, the assertiveness you show in faculty meetings, your ideas that rock the boat, the fact that you spoke up and disagreed with TBD. Whatever. Voila, your contract isn't renewed.

Catch my drift? So can we drop the baloney (read: libel) about fired professors and move to a higher level, the level of empirical proof and all that scientific stuff we're supposed to be trained in?

Pretty please.

E.

-


very well said... many thanks

[mario345]

Slander
words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
defame: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone
--Princeton Online Dictionary

The similar thing written is also called libel.

Now boys and girls, gather 'round while Uncle Experienced (Are You Experienced?) tells you the difference between being 'fired' from a job and not having your contract renewed. Before I wax eloquent, however, let's agree that neither Uncle E nor you, his minions, knows the true circumstances of the movement from SXM to SAB (rdecastro & DF) of said professors.

Being 'fired' from a job can occur for many reasons and in many ways. These days, especially in The Academy, professors cannot just be let go because you don't like their shoes or their beard, or because you didn't get any last night. There has to be 'cause' and it needs to be good. My Experienced Guess is that neither of the former AUC professors did anything remotely related to 'cause.' For the thick amongst us: it is very doubtful that they were fired.

Now, in the real world there's this thing called politics. It's completely separate from one's job performance or merit or worth to the organisation or anything else..... it's 100% dependent on who happens to be The Big **** and how that person subjectively, not rationally, feels about you. Based on data ranging from subjectively barely defensible to purely out of their a** you might find yourself either in undeserved favor or undeserved disfavor. This is not just hypothetical, boys and girls -- some percentage of you reading this will find yourself one day in this very predicament if you haven't already been there.

You could be the inventor of the kurtev artificial heart thingy and if TBD doesn't like you, your life becomes sidetracked, and not in a good way. Now comes the possibility that 'your contract may not be renewed.' The higher percentile among you will have already caught my drift. You did nothing wrong but TBD just doesn't like you, the cut of your jib, the assertiveness you show in faculty meetings, your ideas that rock the boat, the fact that you spoke up and disagreed with TBD. Whatever. Voila, your contract isn't renewed.

Catch my drift? So can we drop the baloney (read: libel) about fired professors and move to a higher level, the level of empirical proof and all that scientific stuff we're supposed to be trained in?

Pretty please.

E.

-
Interesting analysis.
I would love to argue this post and the associated terms [and believe me, by the time I finished reading your post, I had 4/5 solid counterarguments to this]. However, I think it will just create useless debate instead of solving the serious issues we have on SABA.
I, however, would like to say that absence of evidence does not disprove anything either.

[Dr. N2012]

Excellent Discussion!!!

[ds_in_tx]

As a AUC student who took both aforementioned professors, allow me to add my two cents as well.

While I can't say that I thought them highly of them personally, they were both smart as heck and required a thorough understanding of the material when you tested. Dr. W's lectures (when you got into the swing of them) were outstanding. (I have a hard time imagining her as the Dean of Students, though. She was not that student-centric during my time at AUC...)

Not to be an apologist, but what's the problem with people failing? Medical school is supposed to be hard, ya know. Maybe you Saba guys should get outta the kitchen if you can't take the heat! :-devil

[Schnabel]

When we had no loan options (the one we have now is pretty awful, but it's better than nothing) - I was thinking of transferring. The other "better" schools: SGU, AUC, and Ross have better loan options than we do.

I decided against it, especially after getting the new loan program. Unless you can get into SGU, Ross, or AUC, I don't think transferring is worth it. We are already discriminated against as a foreign medical student but moreso as a Caribbean student. Transferring is the worst thing a Caribbean student can do unless they are going up in the ladder. From my understanding, it's difficult to transfer up. It's doable though, but I think it definitely is determined on a case by case basis.

I wouldn't considerate it unless you can definitely go to the 3 above and you're prepared for a large backstep in your education. Most schools, whether they are the SGU, Ross, AUC or otherwise, will require you to complete certain classes on their campus.

If you've gotten through your basic sciences, or even up to 3rd semester, I would definitely think twice and thrice before transferring. Research it, too - because I think you'll find it will end up hurting you more in the long run.

I've heard stories of transfers getting a very hard time in interviews because of it. I've been told by a person on the admissions comittee of LSU residency program that they will not even interview a Caribbean medical school transferee no matter where their end destination. I can't completely validate this - but I've had a hard time finding information to prove it wrong.
I agree unless its those top 3 you better stay here. But if you can get into any one of those that'll be awesome if you go to one of the lesser schools like *** *** *** you'll be like taking a step down.

[CrazyDiamond]

As a AUC student who took both aforementioned professors, allow me to add my two cents as well.

While I can't say that I thought them highly of them personally, they were both smart as heck and required a thorough understanding of the material when you tested. Dr. W's lectures (when you got into the swing of them) were outstanding. (I have a hard time imagining her as the Dean of Students, though. She was not that student-centric during my time at AUC...)

Not to be an apologist, but what's the problem with people failing? Medical school is supposed to be hard, ya know. Maybe you Saba guys should get outta the kitchen if you can't take the heat! :-devil

There is a problem with failing students if the failing is done as a matter of policy. If 100% of the students have a good understanding of the material, why is it necessary to fail out a certain percentage? Medical school is hard due to the complexity and vastness of the material and not because all med school professors decided to make it so.

Last semester, the first test yielded a high average. Interestingly enough, the very next test produced an abysmal average. Is it your opinion that a class with many high achievers (this is the class labeled "smartest at Saba," mind you) decided to slack off all at once?

[CrazyDiamond]

Slander
words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
defame: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone
--Princeton Online Dictionary

The similar thing written is also called libel.

Now boys and girls, gather 'round while Uncle Experienced (Are You Experienced?) tells you the difference between being 'fired' from a job and not having your contract renewed. Before I wax eloquent, however, let's agree that neither Uncle E nor you, his minions, knows the true circumstances of the movement from SXM to SAB (rdecastro & DF) of said professors.

Being 'fired' from a job can occur for many reasons and in many ways. These days, especially in The Academy, professors cannot just be let go because you don't like their shoes or their beard, or because you didn't get any last night. There has to be 'cause' and it needs to be good. My Experienced Guess is that neither of the former AUC professors did anything remotely related to 'cause.' For the thick amongst us: it is very doubtful that they were fired.

Now, in the real world there's this thing called politics. It's completely separate from one's job performance or merit or worth to the organisation or anything else..... it's 100% dependent on who happens to be The Big **** and how that person subjectively, not rationally, feels about you. Based on data ranging from subjectively barely defensible to purely out of their a** you might find yourself either in undeserved favor or undeserved disfavor. This is not just hypothetical, boys and girls -- some percentage of you reading this will find yourself one day in this very predicament if you haven't already been there.

You could be the inventor of the kurtev artificial heart thingy and if TBD doesn't like you, your life becomes sidetracked, and not in a good way. Now comes the possibility that 'your contract may not be renewed.' The higher percentile among you will have already caught my drift. You did nothing wrong but TBD just doesn't like you, the cut of your jib, the assertiveness you show in faculty meetings, your ideas that rock the boat, the fact that you spoke up and disagreed with TBD. Whatever. Voila, your contract isn't renewed.

Catch my drift? So can we drop the baloney (read: libel) about fired professors and move to a higher level, the level of empirical proof and all that scientific stuff we're supposed to be trained in?

Pretty please.

E.

-

To say that Dr. W and Dr. L's contracts were not renewed is a euphemism for "they were fired." Their former employers decided to terminate their employment.

According the dictionary.com, the definition of the verb "fire" in our context is:
terminate the employment of; discharge from an office or position;

Let's call a spade a spade shall we?

It is possible that they were let go for any number of reasons and you'll notice that I didn't speculate as to the reasons why in my post. I simply stated a fact; those two profs were fired and that students are concerned as to why rejects from another school would be appointed to such high positions, supplanting higher rated faculty members.

Please don't read things into my post that aren't there.

By your own admission, you do not know all the circumstances surrounding the two said professors' move from St. Maarten to Saba. Therefore you have no basis to conjecture that they "did nothing wrong" or that they did for that matter. It may have been due to politics, or it may have been due to poor performance on their part...neither you or I know the reason why. But the fact still stands that they were fired.

[Experienced]

I must respectfully disagree.

[CrazyDiamond]

Why not try to argue with facts instead of puerile insults? Stop injecting words into my posts that I never typed!


This seemingly insatiable need you have, CD, along with a shrinking handful of others, to believe in fairy tales is striking. Remind me to tell you about the bridge to Statia I have for sale.

The original poster asked why there is talk of many students transferring out of Saba. I presented facts without injecting my opinion into it. If you think these are "fairy tales", then let's examine the claims.

What I read in your posts is slander, and because it is written it is also libel. You are convinced, or portray yourself as such, that the two professors were fired and that bad, bad SUSOM hired two 'rejects' (your words) to inflict pain and suffering on you and other hapless victims for some reason you haven't clarified. I challenge you to point out to me where exactly I typed any of these things. Specific quotes would be nice rather than vague and unsupported accusations.

Yet you've read the alternatives, you've read former students of these professors saying they are demanding but excellent, that these former students learned a lot and are doing well in their clinicals in the areas these professors taught.But the fact remains that the vast majority of the posts on these forums regarding these professors are negative. A quick search will reveal hundreds of posts on these profs and the bulk of posters do no speak positively about them.

Those 2 professors are poorly rated. I can objectively say that they are poorly rated because at 2 3+ hour long meetings attended by the vast majority of basic science students, there were ZERO positive comments about them. Average students, excellent students and poor students alike had only unfavorable things to say.

At the meeting Dr. D said he had to give these professors a chance to improve (now why would he say a thing like that?) He even went as far as to acknowledge that they might not be the best people for their jobs. He also promised to "get in Dr. L's back pocket."

But you persevere in your fairy tale that they are 'rejects' who as a personal policy (or is it the whole bad school's policy?) automatically flunk some number of otherwise brilliant, deserving students. It's laughable, really, and yet you continue to say this over and over and over. Newsflash: those professors ARE rejects of AUC. By definition a reject is one who was rejected. In terminating their services i.e. firing them, AUC rejected them. They were not wanted there, therefore they are rejects; AUC-rejects.

During these aforementioned marathon meetings, at no point did Dr. D deny that Dr. L and Dr. W were fired. The claim that they were fired was brought up several times. Dr. D had the opportunity to scotch this rumor if indeed it is untrue. Yet, he never did.

What's your agenda, friend? Are you just gullible? Are you a marginal student who struggles more to blame professors for your deficiencies than to just study harder or even to admit that maybe you are one of that small percentage of admitted students who just can't cut it?And what is your agenda? Are you with the admin? What is your interest in acting like there are no concerns among the student body when clearly there are? Is it your opinion that students decided out of the blue to simply type out hundreds of posts regarding concerns at the school? Why did they only now decide to do this if nothing much has changed?

If these are not truly concerns held by the student body then why did the vast majority of students take 6+ hours out of their busy weeks to discuss these issues at not one but two school wide meetings?

For all you know, I could be a straight A student. Please, stop with the childish name calling.

I'm fascinated with this world view you insist on inflicting on the rest of us, viz., that a very highly rated, prestigious Caribbean medical school that has somehow managed to turn out hundreds of successful physicians before you ever heard the name Saba is of the policy of hiring 'rejects' (a truly slanderous term if there ever was one) who then are allowed to torture poor pitiful medical students for no reason. And that the bad, bad people who have made this school such a success are truly out to get you. You may be closer to your namesake Mr. Barrett than you know.What we have here are more inane ramblings drawing absurd conclusions from my post. If you dispute my claims in post #4 provide evidence please. Wild ad homiem attacks and baseless statements do not constitute eivdence.

The term "reject" is not slanderous, it is factual. And Saba has hired far worse than simply rejects of other medical schools. Are you aware of Dr. D and Dr. A, the clin med prof's histories? PM me and let's just say that I can point you toward certain court documents.

I suggest you take a few lessons in reading comprehension. It is clearly not your forte. Are you perhaps one of those students that didn't take the MCAT?

[mario345]

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:wow

[Schnabel]

There is a problem with failing students if the failing is done as a matter of policy. If 100% of the students have a good understanding of the material, why is it necessary to fail out a certain percentage? Medical school is hard due to the complexity and vastness of the material and not because all med school professors decided to make it so.

Last semester, the first test yielded a high average. Interestingly enough, the very next test produced an abysmal average. Is it your opinion that a class with many high achievers (this is the class labeled "smartest at Saba," mind you) decided to slack off all at once?
In my undergrad professors increased the level of difficulty in classes based on how the students did in past exams. It was very frustrating because no matter how hard you studied they just kept on pushing your grades down and down if you didn't keep up. I understand how this can make students learn more but it does make you wonder if its you and your brain which are deteriorating or if the school has a policy where a teacher cannot give too many B s and A s.

[Boulderunner]

I just finished fifth semester on the island and had both Dr.W and Dr.L. I had no problem with either of them. As a matter of fact I really enjoyed Dr.L's lectures and found that he did an excellent job of preparing us. They were both tough profs that pushed us to excel. I dont care what school they were at before or what their reason for leaving was, it doesnt matter. Many fo the students that dislike them seem to think that the profs are obligated to hand feed the students info and hold their hand through med school. Its time to grow up. This is graduate school. No matter where you go there is going to be profs that you dont like or that you dont feel teach well. There are other profs on saba that I felt were much worse than Dr.L and Dr.W that have never come under scrutiny. And to be honest I think that the curves some profs were giving were excessive in my fourth and fifth semester. Dr.L and Dr.W are doing tthe right thing i think by not being so generous with curves. By giving such excessive curves the profs were not only passing people who were not ready to take the usmle but also were minimizing the efforts of those who excelled without the need for curves.There was a class where the prof made the curve just big enough so that no body would fail. It was an enormous ridiculous curve. And honestly some of the people that passed should not have. I am actually terrified at the thought of some of these people making decisions about peoples lives. Nobody wants to be that prof that fails people. It is much easier to be that cool prof that tests easy, and gives big curves and wont fail anybody.Dr.L and Dr.W have one job on saba, and that is to prep us for the usmle and they are doing a fine job. Period. You should be thanking your lucky stars that you even have a chance to become a doctor.

[CrazyDiamond]

I just finished fifth semester on the island and had both Dr.W and Dr.L. I had no problem with either of them. As a matter of fact I really enjoyed Dr.L's lectures and found that he did an excellent job of preparing us. They were both tough profs that pushed us to excel. I dont care what school they were at before or what their reason for leaving was, it doesnt matter. Many fo the students that dislike them seem to think that the profs are obligated to hand feed the students info and hold their hand through med school. Its time to grow up. This is graduate school. No matter where you go there is going to be profs that you dont like or that you dont feel teach well. There are other profs on saba that I felt were much worse than Dr.L and Dr.W that have never come under scrutiny. And to be honest I think that the curves some profs were giving were excessive in my fourth and fifth semester. Dr.L and Dr.W are doing tthe right thing i think by not being so generous with curves. By giving such excessive curves the profs were not only passing people who were not ready to take the usmle but also were minimizing the efforts of those who excelled without the need for curves.There was a class where the prof made the curve just big enough so that no body would fail. It was an enormous ridiculous curve. And honestly some of the people that passed should not have. I am actually terrified at the thought of some of these people making decisions about peoples lives. Nobody wants to be that prof that fails people. It is much easier to be that cool prof that tests easy, and gives big curves and wont fail anybody.Dr.L and Dr.W have one job on saba, and that is to prep us for the usmle and they are doing a fine job. Period. You should be thanking your lucky stars that you even have a chance to become a doctor.

If you look back through this thread, you'll notice that I never said they were good or bad professors. I said they were poorly rated, which is a statement of fact.

The only "agenda" I had in this thread is to answer the original poster's questions as to why there is discontentment among the student body and why there is lots of talk of students transferring out.

[Boulderunner]

Well I dont think people transferring out has anything to do with Dr.L or Dr.W. And poorly rated by who? If you look at the evaluations of Dr.W and Dr.L since they arrived on Saba, I doubt that overall they are "poorly rated". You say that that is a statement of fact but what is it based on. Was it based on that joke meeting that happened at school....Or somehow you accessed their faculty evaluations which I didnt know that students could do. Most of the people in my class and the class ahead of me liked them just fine. Stop spreading rumors and "creating dissent among the lemmings"....

[CrazyDiamond]

Well I dont think people transferring out has anything to do with Dr.L or Dr.W. And poorly rated by who? If you look at the evaluations of Dr.W and Dr.L since they arrived on Saba, I doubt that overall they are "poorly rated". You say that that is a statement of fact but what is it based on. Was it based on that joke meeting that happened at school....Or somehow you accessed their faculty evaluations which I didnt know that students could do. Most of the people in my class and the class ahead of me liked them just fine. Stop spreading rumors and "creating dissent among the lemmings"....

Just do a quick search of all the posts on these forums about them. I would bet that 90% + of the comments about them are negative. And it's not just 1 or 2 posters typing 100s of posts.

These "joke" meetings were attended by the majority of the student body. Dr. D and the other professors (who were present on the first day) acknowledged the seriousness of the issues. At the said "joke" meeting, there were ZERO positive comments about Dr. L and Dr. W. These professors were 2 of the main agenda items at the meetings about student concerns.

If the ratings of Dr. L and Dr. W were overall not negative then how come no one had anything positive to say about them? 4th and 5th semester students had only negative criticisms about them. If these 2 profs are overall not poorly rated how come no one among the 4ths and 5ths said anything in their defense?

If Dr. L is not poorly rated, then why was the upstairs of the main building overcrowded with students protesting to admin his appointment as course director of pathology?

You're right I don't have access to the student evaluations. But do you? If you do, you are probably with the admin and you would have a vested interest in down playing how poorly rated these professors are.

[Experienced]

"There is beauty all around,
When there’s love at home;
There is joy in every sound,
When there’s love at home.

"Peace and plenty here abide,
Smiling sweet on every side,
Time doth softly, sweetly glide,
When there’s love at home.

"Chorus: Love at home, love at home,
Peace and plenty here abide
When there's love at home."

Old Mormon Hymn

[covarubious]

Once again another insulting rude post from Experienced,. Every rude post you make only tarnishes the schools rep even more. Please try to be a little bit more professional... After all, you are Experienced, you should be better then the rest of the "swine" and not wallow in the muck

Don't bother. The fact that you have actually had these two professors and that I am 'experienced' means nothing. The expert noob (and slanderer) Crazy Diamond knows all there is to know. In all my experience, I too have never heard the term 'highly rated' or 'poorly rated' regarding a faculty member. But apparently Mr. Diamond knows all. Pearls before swine and all that, I say.

E.

-

[KingMo]

:rolleyes:

[CrazyDiamond]

:-devil:-devil:-devil:-devil:-devil:-devil

[edited]

[CrazyDiamond]

Don't bother. The fact that you have actually had these two professors and that I am 'experienced' means nothing. The expert noob (and slanderer) Crazy Diamond knows all there is to know. In all my experience, I too have never heard the term 'highly rated' or 'poorly rated' regarding a faculty member. But apparently Mr. Diamond knows all. Pearls before swine and all that, I say.

E.

-

Yet again, there is absolutely no substance to your "argument." In fact this isn't an argument at all.

I understand though.....it's much easier to use petty insults than things like "facts" and "logic."

[icesage]

C'mon Experienced use a Jedi mind trick, reverse PSYCHOLOGY ;) or something. You are getting pwned by the "noob".

[AZcopperJim]

Hey Covarub,
Experienced is experienced. He is a cool guy that has been here along time. Also, he does not get lost in the forest; that speaks volumes to me :D. He is our very own island clone of Porter Rockwell. Don't piss him off! :headchop:

[covarubious]

I have heard the same from other people(well, maybe not the Porter Rockwell thing) who have met his in person but that doesn't mean some of the posts here aren't a little much... And if having an opinion is what keeps me out of Saba then maybe its not the school for me ;)

Hey Covarub,
Experienced is experienced. He is a cool guy that has been here along time. Also, he does not get lost in the forest; that speaks volumes to me :D. He is our very own island clone of Porter Rockwell. Don't piss him off! :headchop:

[mario345]

I just finished fifth semester on the island and had both Dr.W and Dr.L. I had no problem with either of them. As a matter of fact I really enjoyed Dr.L's lectures and found that he did an excellent job of preparing us. They were both tough profs that pushed us to excel. I dont care what school they were at before or what their reason for leaving was, it doesnt matter. Many fo the students that dislike them seem to think that the profs are obligated to hand feed the students info and hold their hand through med school. Its time to grow up. This is graduate school. No matter where you go there is going to be profs that you dont like or that you dont feel teach well. There are other profs on saba that I felt were much worse than Dr.L and Dr.W that have never come under scrutiny. And to be honest I think that the curves some profs were giving were excessive in my fourth and fifth semester. Dr.L and Dr.W are doing tthe right thing i think by not being so generous with curves. By giving such excessive curves the profs were not only passing people who were not ready to take the usmle but also were minimizing the efforts of those who excelled without the need for curves.There was a class where the prof made the curve just big enough so that no body would fail. It was an enormous ridiculous curve. And honestly some of the people that passed should not have. I am actually terrified at the thought of some of these people making decisions about peoples lives. Nobody wants to be that prof that fails people. It is much easier to be that cool prof that tests easy, and gives big curves and wont fail anybody.Dr.L and Dr.W have one job on saba, and that is to prep us for the usmle and they are doing a fine job. Period. You should be thanking your lucky stars that you even have a chance to become a doctor.
Much of this is false and you know it. You are presenting your opinion of these professors as facts [and I know the motives behind your post, trust me :) ]
Dr. W teaches only 20 lectures or so for immunology and hosh posh of genetics. Genetics, which she made ridiculously confusing and convulated that it took many of us more time to go though her one ppt slide than attend a 3 hour session with Dr. A and get everything down. Yes, Dr. A taught us her session because we could not understand anything. Therefore, first off, its not a matter of intelligence of the student, rather the competence of the educator.
I will admit that she gave students a lot of information for immunology, however, in regards to the actual USMLE prep - its not like she did anything spectacular [or more work than any other professor]. Most of immunology was covered again in Pathology.
I will restrict giving an opinion on Dr. L because I do not wish to write negative about him publicly as he taught us and that is a fact, and he should be respected for that. He is a very knowledgable person, but not a good professor for many key reasons (as many people have stated over and over).
And its funny how you are 'terrified' by your classmates intelligence and you choose to congratulate professors who fail students rather than opening your eyes and understanding he TRUE FACTS:
The 5th exam in Pathology 1 was given a 19 point curve not to disappoint you or Dr. L or give you a mark over 100, or pass 7 people. As far as I can tell, that highest mark was a 88 before the curve. ZERO As. The reason there was a curve was because there were 9-10 questions which failed on the discrimination index [I know this for a fact]. It had nothing to do with Dr. J trying to pass people, it had everything to do with following Pathology course policies which have been in place since Saba started, simple as that! Unfortunately, Dr. L took this personally and wrote a letter to the admin, and put Dr. J under the scanner and he was subsequently removed after he gave another 3 point curve in 5th semester block 2 AGAIN because he simply adhered to policies that were always in place by the Pathology department. Note that Dr. J was the coordinator and he was exercising his rights (and not in an unfair manner - but with honesty and equality).
There was a lot of bias involved in judging who was right or wrong and a lot of politics dominated this situation. Im sure you know that [you should know that if you were in Saba from June 15- August 15].
Anyhow, since the exam was out of 55 qns, 10 qns are roughly equal to 20%, and that was the 'adjustment'. How can a simple thing be so foreign to you?! It boggles me that people know the facts and still make such comments.
And as for your assertion that some of your classmates should not be doctors is honestly quite stupid, pathetic and shameful. Who are YOU to say that they 'shouldnt' make it if they didnt do well on one petty miniscule block exam? Like you, most of us have made tremendous sacrifices to do this, and I think it will be appreciated if you dont spit on that.
I think you have forgotten than you are at SABA. Remember, you were NOT good enough to get into a school in your country, so please stop this nonsense because it makes you ignorant and someone who lacks perspective (among many other things). As soon as you step into the Caribbean, your bragging rights are gone! Same goes to many other 'senior' posters here who assume that the world starts and ends at their feet. So yeah, you should also be thanking your lucky stars that you have a chance to become a doctor. :roll:
One other fact to consider which will hopefully open your eyes:
The questions that Dr. L wrote were answered 15-20% more incorrectly than Dr. J and Dr. K. Dr. L's questions average in 4th semester was barely 70%, meaning that if he taught all of 4th, more than half the class would fail. Dr. J and Dr. K were compensating for his questions! [I also know this for a fact].

[AZcopperJim]

And if having an opinion is what keeps me out of Saba then maybe its not the school for me ;)[/quote]

yup 10-4 on that statement of yours.
don't need more BNC on Saba

[ds_in_tx]

There is a problem with failing students if the failing is done as a matter of policy. If 100% of the students have a good understanding of the material, why is it necessary to fail out a certain percentage? Medical school is hard due to the complexity and vastness of the material and not because all med school professors decided to make it so.

Last semester, the first test yielded a high average. Interestingly enough, the very next test produced an abysmal average. Is it your opinion that a class with many high achievers (this is the class labeled "smartest at Saba," mind you) decided to slack off all at once?

OTOH, I would be concerned if either too many *or* too few students are failing... As a I previously implied, but will now state more explicitly, perhaps you Saba guys are too accustomed to easy exams and high overall pass rates so that when you actually get a challenge, you crumble? I have no evidence of this, mind you, but if AUC could survive them for >2 years without whole classes failing out, why can't you guys?

[mario345]

And if having an opinion is what keeps me out of Saba then maybe its not the school for me ;)

yup 10-4 on that statement of yours.
don't need more BNC on Saba
sorry, but i didnt understand your post. care to elaborate? :p

[icesage]

Boulderunner getting pwned by Mario345. I know Mario345 to be a solid student too.

[CrazyDiamond]

OTOH, I would be concerned if either too many *or* too few students are failing... As a I previously implied, but will now state more explicitly, perhaps you Saba guys are too accustomed to easy exams and high overall pass rates so that when you actually get a challenge, you crumble? I have no evidence of this, mind you, but if AUC could survive them for >2 years without whole classes failing out, why can't you guys?

No one is complaining that the professors are challenging. The professor before Dr. L was challenging, but he also taught well to prepare students for the steps. The vast majority of students would tell you that Dr. J, the prof the school demoted in favor Dr. L, was a far superior professor who prepared them better for the step.

People are complaining that the professors haven't been testing on the material they have taught. People are complaining because in their opinion, Saba is becoming a kakistocracy; the highest-rated professors are being replaced by the lowest-rated.

Consider this. When Dr. J tendered his resignation, the upstairs of the main building was overflowing with students protesting to admin. Would anyone protest if Dr. W or Dr. L were to quit tomorrow?

[icesage]

No one is complaining that the professors are challenging. The professor before Dr. L was challenging, but he also taught well to prepare students for the steps. The vast majority of students would tell you that Dr. J, the prof the school demoted in favor Dr. L, was a far superior professor who prepared them better for the step.

People are complaining that the professors haven't been testing on the material they have taught. People are complaining because in their opinion, Saba is becoming a kakistocracy; the highest-rated professors are being replaced by the lowest-rated.

Consider this. When Dr. J tendered his resignation, the upstairs of the main building was overflowing with students protesting to admin. Would anyone protest if Dr. W or Dr. L were to quit tomorrow?

Also CD, you should mention the fact that USMLE Step 1 pass percentages have not changed one bit since the arrival of Dr. L. If anyone wants to know where I received this information from, I received it from Dr. D (the Dean himself) b/c I asked him and he was kind enough to provide this info. So Dr. L is not a godsend as some are suggesting. Also it can be argued that he is not doing a poor job either. But I shall reserve judgement on this matter when we shall have stats from next year onwards on the passing rates of Step 1 since Dr. L was made Path course director and more importantly since Dr. J, a highly knowledgable, caring and valued member of the department, resigned. If the pass rates are the same give or take a couple of % points then Dr. L is not doing a bad job. However if the passing rates are lower than
that, then we know where to assign blame since Path is such a key component of the Step 1 exam. Just as we the students, are judged by numbers, we should also judge the professors accordingly. I look forward to next year's stats.

[CrazyDiamond]

Even if the pass rates remain unchanged, it could simply be a testimony to the effectiveness of Kaplan and other prep courses that students take prior to sitting for the Step. I'm just going by testimony of the students who say that they find the material Dr. J lectured on far easier for the purposes of the USMLE than what Dr. L taught.

I've heard statements like "Dr. J could teach path to a 5 year old" and "Dr. L's slides are like trying to decipher a secret code."

[icesage]

Even if the pass rates remain unchanged, it could simply be a testimony to the effectiveness of Kaplan and other prep courses that students take prior to sitting for the Step. I'm just going by testimony of the students who say that they find the material Dr. J lectured on far easier for the purposes of the USMLE than what Dr. L taught.

I've heard statements like "Dr. J could teach path to a 5 year old" and "Dr. L's slides are like trying to decipher a secret code."

No arguments there CD. I totally agree with you. Dr. J could teach Path to a 5 yr. old and probably better than Dr. L could teach Path to a medical student. In fact, Dr. J might be doing that right now in the unfortunate event that some of those 5 year olds may later have the misfortune of having to sit through one of Dr. L's classes.

[mario345]

No one is complaining that the professors are challenging. The professor before Dr. L was challenging, but he also taught well to prepare students for the steps. The vast majority of students would tell you that Dr. J, the prof the school demoted in favor Dr. L, was a far superior professor who prepared them better for the step.

People are complaining that the professors haven't been testing on the material they have taught. People are complaining because in their opinion, Saba is becoming a kakistocracy; the highest-rated professors are being replaced by the lowest-rated.

Consider this. When Dr. J tendered his resignation, the upstairs of the main building was overflowing with students protesting to admin. Would anyone protest if Dr. W or Dr. L were to quit tomorrow?
You are right.
But I would like to stress that Dr. J is loved not only because he prepared us for the USMLE, but because the way he treats his students and conducts himself. By the way, when asked the reasons behind his incredible lectures, he gives credit to Goljan. But lets be honest, its easy to shrink down material, but very difficult to expand it. So, there has to be some serious talent and genius behind his lectures, which a product of extreme hard work and sleepless nights (if he is reading this, I am sure he will be laughing). :D
Instead of bullying and brushing them off, he sits down with you and explains till you get it without any exceptions. I remember learning these kinds of attributes of a physician in my psychology class. ;)
Sadly, students do not have that kind of a role model to follow anymore.
Dr. J has class, coupled with great talent and humility - that is a rare combination, and any school which has the honour of employing his talents will be doing itself a huge favor. Not huge, humongous.
This may sound like flattery, but I guarantee you that more than 90% of my class thinks of him in this light [barring few exceptions who do not represent an average student as they want to be 'challenged', and then cheat on the NBME exit exam, lol].

[darkmansaad]

man my computer gets hit with a virus and i get stuck in a bad rut with rotations and the noobs have grown wild with comfort. Listen up noobs, if u want to transfer, do it and stop posting. 3 quick points - #1 you dont win arguments with posts that are similar in size to the state of rhode island and that i have to stop reading after roughly 2 lines because i cant follow the train of thought.
#2 - to be serious, i dont think you understand what rotations are like as a foreign IMG student. you all act like you "deserve" something coming to you and that there is some "ideal" situation you see coming to yourselves. if you think you feel injusticed now when you've failed a few basic science exams.....ho ho ho let me know how u feel when you hit a typical hospital (typical, some are very good in many respects i dont want to get into details here) that takes predominately IMG students and u've gotten pwned a few times with months gone between learning anything at all.
#3 - does anyone here care about average usmle pass rates??? I care about avg usmle SCORES, if u just care about passing in my opinion you shouldnt be posting, just go home and study if you are on that much of a tightrope. If you are posting on here, i assume you have enough time on your hands to be rocking med school in between manic posts so you should focus on how high you should score not just barely passing.

PS = go download the latest tables from the people that run the match...check out how img's did and what scores they needed to get into a halfway decent program. I'll give you a hint...even a 99 doesnt guarantee that you wont end up in an IMG sweatshop program in Internal Med or FP whose name alone will make it harder to get a fellowship. And if you want to shoot higher (and i am by no means disparaging I-Med or FP, im talking strictly salary/step 1 score/specialty) i suggest you get your act in gear and get ready for war the next two years. I dont even want to get into the argument of where the future of medicine and economics lie but basically you better start working hard if you want to make enough money to pay back massive loans.

[bigkap87]

man my computer gets hit with a virus and i get stuck in a bad rut with rotations and the noobs have grown wild with comfort. Listen up noobs, if u want to transfer, do it and stop posting. 3 quick points - #1 you dont win arguments with posts that are similar in size to the state of rhode island and that i have to stop reading after roughly 2 lines because i cant follow the train of thought.
#2 - to be serious, i dont think you understand what rotations are like as a foreign IMG student. you all act like you "deserve" something coming to you and that there is some "ideal" situation you see coming to yourselves. if you think you feel injusticed now when you've failed a few basic science exams.....ho ho ho let me know how u feel when you hit a typical hospital (typical, some are very good in many respects i dont want to get into details here) that takes predominately IMG students and u've gotten pwned a few times with months gone between learning anything at all.
#3 - does anyone here care about average usmle pass rates??? I care about avg usmle SCORES, if u just care about passing in my opinion you shouldnt be posting, just go home and study if you are on that much of a tightrope. If you are posting on here, i assume you have enough time on your hands to be rocking med school in between manic posts so you should focus on how high you should score not just barely passing.

PS = go download the latest tables from the people that run the match...check out how img's did and what scores they needed to get into a halfway decent program. I'll give you a hint...even a 99 doesnt guarantee that you wont end up in an IMG sweatshop program in Internal Med or FP whose name alone will make it harder to get a fellowship. And if you want to shoot higher (and i am by no means disparaging I-Med or FP, im talking strictly salary/step 1 score/specialty) i suggest you get your act in gear and get ready for war the next two years. I dont even want to get into the argument of where the future of medicine and economics lie but basically you better start working hard if you want to make enough money to pay back massive loans.

Off topic but I think Darkman has been watching a little too much Scrubs and maybe emulating Dr. Cox haha. In all seriousness, he brings some good points to the table. As an IMG you do not "deserve" anything and you have to EARN everything! Nothing comes easy. I too was a huge fan of our former path professor, but great teachers come and go, you make do with what you have and try your best to put a smile on your face and keep a positive attitude. Complaining and negativity will only bring more stress and unhappiness to your life.

[icesage]

Off topic but I think Darkman has been watching a little too much Scrubs and maybe emulating Dr. Cox haha. In all seriousness, he brings some good points to the table. As an IMG you do not "deserve" anything and you have to EARN everything! Nothing comes easy. I too was a huge fan of our former path professor, but great teachers come and go, you make do with what you have and try your best to put a smile on your face and keep a positive attitude. Complaining and negativity will only bring more stress and unhappiness to your life.

Agreeing with bigkap87 and darkmansaad, I am done arguing and complaining about the Machiavellian manner in which Dr. J was forced to resign. I still think it was wrong the manner in which Dr. J was dealt with by Admin and I believe that Dr. L engineered Dr. J's downfall in order to become course director, but that is the last of this that you will hear from me. We do have to make do with what we have and do the best with what we have. Hell, no one is forcing us to be here. We are paying to be here. I see where the other side is coming from - "If you don't like the situation, study hard and get out of it".

[mario345]

EDITED (due to a request.)

[mario345]

Off topic but I think Darkman has been watching a little too much Scrubs and maybe emulating Dr. Cox haha. In all seriousness, he brings some good points to the table. As an IMG you do not "deserve" anything and you have to EARN everything! Nothing comes easy. I too was a huge fan of our former path professor, but great teachers come and go, you make do with what you have and try your best to put a smile on your face and keep a positive attitude. Complaining and negativity will only bring more stress and unhappiness to your life.
I agree with you a 100%. However, the issue was not about how he was removed, although I do agree that it was unfair (saying it very nicely). And it is wrong to just single out Dr. L. I respect him tremendously because he taught us, and I will be the first one to say that he is very knowledgable on any day. But I have always have a different opinion in regards to how he teaches, and how he treats students; in comparison to Dr. J. Anyhow, thats been discussed many times, no point in being repetitive.
What got me irked is that after all this has happened, when facts are in front of every one, and people not only do not understand, but argue! And further, they use their perception of facts and opinions to bring down their fellow classmates by saying 'they couldnt hack it'. To be honest with you, its shameful.
Its funny that your posts reminds me of this thing I was thinking about. It may be odd, but every single doctor that I have talked to, they all say that the best doctors they know struggled some point in medical school [without any exceptions]. By best I mean, not intelligent, but best for their patients. They think that once you struggle and get back up, it brings humility and builds character, which is foreign to those who dont have any difficulties in blasting through their studies. I do admire people who do well at school as that takes character and a lot of discipline and hardworlk as well, and I congratulate them on their success whenever I can. But I think it takes a bit more to be a doctor than arrogance and exploiting every oppurtunity to step on your fellow students and try to crush them, especially when they know the sacrifices people have made to be there. Its nothing less than spitting on someone.

[darkmansaad]

consider noobs regulated and thread ended, mission accomplished.

now seriously does anyone know what exactly is tested on these CCE exams lol i heard my surgery final has 1/3's ob gyn on it

[mario345]

consider noobs regulated and thread ended, mission accomplished.

now seriously does anyone know what exactly is tested on these CCE exams lol i heard my surgery final has 1/3's ob gyn on it

Sorry to burst your bubble 'darkman', but the post above addressed your nonsense in a very 'appropriate' and 'comprehensive' manner. However, I was requested to take it down. Its a shame that you missed it, would have been quite an eye opener for you.
However, I will say that its a shame that U.S. of A will have physicians like you who cannot even respect their own profession and peers, and disregard them by tagging them as belonging to 'IMG sweatshops'. :roll:
I think you have forgotten that you were not good enough to get into a medical school in your own country, so your bragging rights and cockiness goes out the window as soon as you step foot in Saba. Perhaps you overlooked that minute detail. Anyhow, 'live and let live' (and dont bring down people while you live).

[icesage]

Sorry to burst your bubble 'darkman', but the post above addressed your nonsense in a very 'appropriate' and 'comprehensive' manner. However, I was requested to take it down. Its a shame that you missed it, would have been quite an eye opener for you.
However, I will say that its a shame that U.S. of A will have physicians like you who cannot even respect their own profession and peers, and disregard them by tagging them as belonging to 'IMG sweatshops'. :roll:
I think you have forgotten that you were not good enough to get into a medical school in your own country, so your bragging rights and cockiness goes out the window as soon as you step foot in Saba. Perhaps you overlooked that minute detail. Anyhow, 'live and let live' (and dont bring down people while you live).

Amen. Darkman, just because someone does not agree with you, does not make them "noobs", "lemmings" or "potential IMG sweatshoppers" or whatever other inane labels you want to give them. Grow up a little...you clearly did not know what was going on at the school b/c you were in clinical rotations. I am sure you are the foremost authority on everything else. BTW I have finally agreed with you in my previous post and you still keep on "labelling". Show some maturity at least when someone agrees with you.

[darkmansaad]

you guys are hilarious. you think im serious when i say "noob" or half the stuff i say. and when i say img sweatshop im referring to programs that exploit imgs because they are in a position of weakness and unless you work hard you will be at their mercy. Take humor with a grain of salt ....noob hahaha j/k cmon man laugh a little its good for u

[mario345]

you guys are hilarious. you think im serious when i say "noob" or half the stuff i say. and when i say img sweatshop im referring to programs that exploit imgs because they are in a position of weakness and unless you work hard you will be at their mercy. Take humor with a grain of salt ....noob hahaha j/k cmon man laugh a little its good for u
Thats convenient.
I will laugh at a good joke anyday, but I think we should be careful in what we post, and maintain objectivity at all times. Besides, when you write a post which is half a page long with definite thought provoking statements, I think its really silly to revert back and say that its a joke. Perhaps you should use more smileys and other indicators, like this one -->:bored::bored::bored:
Just my $0.02

[gumby]

Why must we all argue so much? Clearly we can move on to more important things, like how to increase your bench. Seriously, improve your bench and you improve your outlook. Can't we all just bench more and get along???

[Experienced]

Why must we all argue so much? Clearly we can move on to more important things, like how to increase your bench. Seriously, improve your bench and you improve your outlook. Can't we all just bench more and get along???

Ok, this is cute for awhile, then it becomes very very prissy.

E.

-

[darkmansaad]

hey man, if u want i can give u tips on benching and gettin ripped. then you can run the island shirtless and grow your hair out so it billows in the saba breeze as you run.

[Experienced]

hey man, if u want i can give u tips on benching and gettin ripped. then you can run the island shirtless and grow your hair out so it billows in the saba breeze as you run.

LOL, like Coochie?

[AZcopperJim]

Shirtless is illegal on Saba. Ask the last of the hells gate bus drivers. He knows about this. Hey, I need another TOS infraction. I just realized Gumby is tied with me. Umm who shall I insult to get ahead of him?

[darkmansaad]

shirtless is technically illegal on saba, however i was never stopped once. The cops knew me and were cool with me....also i think i looked good as i ran in the ocean breeze which probably helped my cause. i know experienced honked at me a few times, a little too enthusiastically

[Experienced]

shirtless is technically illegal on saba, however i was never stopped once. The cops knew me and were cool with me....also i think i looked good as i ran in the ocean breeze which probably helped my cause. i know experienced honked at me a few times, a little too enthusiastically

Shut up, that was OUR secret.....

E.

-

[Dr. N2012]

Nice discussion....it gives more insight of school....thanx everyone