Does school require Step 1 to graduate

[fossildoc]

Does Windsor require students to pass Step 1 to graduate with the MD degree?

Some schools do (e.g., All Saints), and some do not (e.g., Xavier).

A student may wish to do only research, or to practice in a country which does not use Step 1. Although all Carib schools prepare students for the Steps, it should not be a requirement for the degree, IMO. The analogy is law schools which prepare students for the bar exam, but never require it for the LLB degree.

[wusmstudent]

I am not sure 100%, but I saw a new policy on their website that stated all students must pass (or at least attempt) Step 1 prior to be being placed in U.S. clinical rotations.

I am not sure if this policy is different for U.K. rotations. I think a lot of the other caribbean schools do not require step 1 if you are going to england for rotations. So if you don't want to take step 1 then maybe the u.k. rotations will be a good option for you.

[Baadshah]

Does Windsor require students to pass Step 1 to graduate with the MD degree?

Some schools do (e.g., All Saints), and some do not (e.g., Xavier).

A student may wish to do only research, or to practice in a country which does not use Step 1. Although all Carib schools prepare students for the Steps, it should not be a requirement for the degree, IMO. The analogy is law schools which prepare students for the bar exam, but never require it for the LLB degree.


Mostly likely yes if you want to do practice in USA.

[alQurayshee]

the school doesnt require it to recieve a degree

but if you want to do clinicals/practice in the uS then thats what you gotta do - take the steps

[MDXRS22]

The school has its own final comprehensive exam, of about 500 questions, which is administered after clinical or the last semester.

I hope I am right

[UHSADOC]

RE: MD (ECFMG Certified)

I know, many carib schools do not require NBME/ECFMG for graduation, however, in order to complete rotations in ACGME, you MUST at least pass Step 1........in 2005 UHSA made the change to require students to pass step 1, prior to 3rd year hospital rotations, I think it is wise, and good idea.

Furthermore, many good programs currently require PASS scores on all steps of the USMLEs PRE-Graduation....(Since, Jan/2005, my school requires grads ECFMG certification, before getting the MD Degree.) Mainly because having MD graduates w/o ECFMG does not make the school look good....(eg: the Thomas case, DDS, MD.....Dentist who displayed his MD w/o even attempting the USMLEs....)

I strongly believe it should be a PRE-MD graduation Requirement. NBME/ECFMG at least shows the MD is on par to LCME type education.
Passing USMLE 1, 2CK and 2CS (CSA).

As most carib school are marketed to US Students, it is only logical to require NBME / ECFMG certification as most LCME schools.

Cheers, ;)

[lswiltshire]

It is good that Windsor SOM can run its own affairs and grant the MD degree to its students whether they pass the ECFMG exams. Is it not true that many students who attend Windsor SOM do not plan to practice medicine between Alaska & the Florida Keys? Why then should they have to subject themselves to this unnecessary exam for them?

Long before the advent of the ECFMG exams, and long before medicine reached the shores of the USA, doctors were graduating from reputable medical schools.

Passing the ECFMG exam does not make anyone a doctor. Every school should have the right to set its own standards to determine who they will allow to be a Dr.

I know of many students who passed the ECFMG exam in my time who could not pass the final exams of their school. Only when they passed their schools exam could they get their schools MD. It is also true that many excellent Drs are trained all over the world at hospitals that are not ACGME. Thank God!

“In 2005 UHSA made the change to require students to pass step 1, prior to 3rd year hospital rotations.”……” Mainly because having MD graduates w/o ECFMG does not make the school look good....(eg: the Thomas case, DDS, MD.....Dentist who displayed his MD w/o even attempting the USMLEs....)”

Between 2003-2005 Azskeptic and others put so much fire and pressure on UHSA on this forum that they were forced to make these steps.

It is noteworthy that many students from all over the world are looking on VMD for advice. Many of them have no desire to practice medicine in the USA. There are many students at Caribbean schools who do not plan to practice medicine in the USA. It is evil to subject them to some exam other than their school’s exam to grant them their degree.

[MatCFAMD]

I agree with the first paragraph, but not with the rest.

I don't think passing USMLE should be a graduation requirement. Not all students who attend the school are looking to practice in the States, and there are multitudes of things that one can do with an MD degree other than clinical practice: with the MD degree, you can work in public health, policy making, epidemiology, work with a drug/pharmaceutical company, work for UN, administrative work, pursue other postgraduate studies, etc. etc. The USMLEs can also be attempted post-graduation, as thousands of foreign-trained doctors now working in the US have done. So, to require passing the Steps or else the MD degree is not going to be awarded, can result in the students being downtrodden. There are tens of thousands of foreign-doctors who attempted the USMLE Steps post-graduation.

It is, of course, best for the school to require students to pass USMLE Step 1 prior to starting the clerkships, but without having to require it to graduate. In many countries, the board licensing exams are written post-graduation.

There are also some administrative and business aspects to having the Steps passed before graduation. Schools do report and use Steps passing rates, residency placement rates, etc. not only for quality assurance, approvals, and continuing accreditation purposes, but also for valid business/recruiting purposes.

So those mock Step 1 exams do help not only to prepare the students, but also as a way to control the passing/failing rate. Imagine if a student has failed or scored low 3 mock exams for Step 1, it is not in the student's best interest either to attempt the official Step 1. There is a good reason why the school monitors student's performance for mock exams, or have them take rigorous Steps review to best prepare. If a student fails or gets low scores in mocks, he/she should not attempt the Step but should wait and prepare more through additional and marathon reviews because there are so much that are at stake on a single score, and indeed that is what some schools do, it is in the student's best interest.

Lastly, the ECFMG certification is not for students from LCME schools, but for those from non-LCME schools. The ECFMG certification is the only thing that will satisfy the examination requirement component for licensure of graduates from non-LCME schools, ie, IMGs.

RE: MD (ECFMG Certified)

I know, many carib schools do not require NBME/ECFMG for graduation, however, in order to complete rotations in ACGME, you MUST at least pass Step 1........in 2005 UHSA made the change to require students to pass step 1, prior to 3rd year hospital rotations, I think it is wise, and good idea.

Furthermore, many good programs currently require PASS scores on all steps of the USMLEs PRE-Graduation....(Since, Jan/2005, my school requires grads ECFMG certification, before getting the MD Degree.) Mainly because having MD graduates w/o ECFMG does not make the school look good....(eg: the Thomas case, DDS, MD.....Dentist who displayed his MD w/o even attempting the USMLEs....)

I strongly believe it should be a PRE-MD graduation Requirement. NBME/ECFMG at least shows the MD is on par to LCME type education.
Passing USMLE 1, 2CK and 2CS (CSA).

As most carib school are marketed to US Students, it is only logical to require NBME / ECFMG certification as most LCME schools.

Cheers, ;)

[BrendaB_MD]

Whether the school requires it is really a minor issue. Irregardless of your current plans, the USMLE broadens your options at relatively little cost. If you plan on spending four years and 200k on medical school is seems prudent to complete the exam. It is easiest to do it when the material is fresh. Thus, you should get it behind you as soon as possible.

If you don't plan a clinical career, you should think long and hard about whether you really require a medical degree. A medical degree does not teach you anything about research. Most medical jobs in the pharmaceutical industry (at least the good ones) require board certification. You certainly don't require a medical degree to succeed in medically-based businesses. And, for those that do require a medical background, they will most likely require that you have clinical expertise. So, if you plan on a clinical career take the USMLE. If not, think hard about whether an MD is a useful investment. Most likely, it is not.

[rokshana]

Since, Jan/2005, my school requires grads ECFMG certification, before getting the MD Degree.)

As most carib school are marketed to US Students, it is only logical to require NBME / ECFMG certification as most LCME schools.

Cheers, ;)


umm...could you tell me how this is possible since to get ECFMG certification YOU NEED A COPY OF YOUR DIPLOMA SHOWING AN MD DEGREE???????

and the LCME does not require ECFMG certification of US grads, since ECFMG stands for the Education Council of Foreign Medical Graduates- the LCME handles US and Canadian schools and has nothing to do with the ECFMG (well not directly anyway).

[rokshana]

It is noteworthy that many students from all over the world are looking on VMD for advice. Many of them have no desire to practice medicine in the USA. There are many students at Caribbean schools who do not plan to practice medicine in the USA. It is evil to subject them to some exam other than their school’s exam to grant them their degree.


Many is a stretch...some is probably more accurate.

whether you like it or not, vmd is defacto a forum for primarily North American students looking to eventually train and practice in either the US and Canada...

and schools DO have other examination avenue fro those who truly don't plan to train or practice in the states (sgu requires passing scores on the BSCE I, BSCE II, and the CSCEs for graduation, but will accept I, CK, and CS IN LIEU of those exams)- so they are not forced to take those exams, but do have to take something.

[MatCFAMD]

Whether the school requires it is really a minor issue. Irregardless of your current plans, the USMLE broadens your options at relatively little cost. If you plan on spending four years and 200k on medical school is seems prudent to complete the exam. It is easiest to do it when the material is fresh. Thus, you should get it behind you as soon as possible.

If you don't plan a clinical career, you should think long and hard about whether you really require a medical degree. A medical degree does not teach you anything about research. Most medical jobs in the pharmaceutical industry (at least the good ones) require board certification. You certainly don't require a medical degree to succeed in medically-based businesses. And, for those that do require a medical background, they will most likely require that you have clinical expertise. So, if you plan on a clinical career take the USMLE. If not, think hard about whether an MD is a useful investment. Most likely, it is not.

Oh boy.

The question was whether or not passing Step 1 should be a graduation requirement, not if you should write it or not.

I briefly stated the reasons for not requiring the Step 1 as one of the graduation requirements. There's a lot more. As a matter or course, and there might be some very rare exceptions -- there is no medical school in North America, in UK, Europe, Australia, Asia, and the rest of the world, where passing the board exam is a requirement to obtain the MD degree. These two are separate. I can cite numerous rationale for this, only to echo the same basic premise espoused by educators. The same for lawyers, nurses, pharmacists, etc. and the whole gamut. The awarding of the degree and the granting of license to practice -- are two completely different things. While both the degree and the board exams are required for licensure, the board exam is not a requirement to obtain the degree.

And this has got nothing to do with what your specific plans are after your MD. Also, although Step 1 is required for postgraduate training, it is not mandatory requirement to graduate from, or fulfill, the MD degree and obtain the diploma. This is really a very thin line and subtle, and you are easily confused for viewing the board exams as a requirement for graduation. From an educator and policy maker perspective, they do not disallow a student to graduate if he/she doesn't pass the boards. In US, "A graduate of *** College of Medicine who wishes to obtain a license to practice medicine must take the United States Medical Licensing Examinations". In other countries, it is more typical outside North America to graduate first, before one is allowed to take the boards. The degree and the boards are two things.

There is no question whether you should sit for the boards. The OP's question is whether it should be a graduation requirement. And I say, it shouldn't be.

Hundreds of thousands of IMGs sat for the boards after they obtained their MD degree. Your assertion that whether a school requires it or not is a minor issue, is quite myopic. As an educator, a student should be allowed to graduate and attempt the boards post-graduation. It is not rare that people take more than one sitting for a Step, are you telling people in the forum that they should delay their graduation until they pass a Step? And as for your assertion that MD should be thought hard as a useful investment, this is largelyone of the things that underpin the policy not to make the boards as a graduation requirement. And to use your phrase as “useful investment”, it is not useful investment to delay your MD graduation because you didn’t pass each Step. It would be a complete debacle. How about be allowed to graduate, and then sit or re-sit afterwards for the boards? Hundreds of thousands of IMGs now practicing in the US have done this. In fact, they wrote their own boards and the US boards post-graduation.

This is not about whether you should write the boards or not, or whether delay writing the boards or not. This is about whether it should be a requirement to fulfill the graduation requirements and obtain the degree/diploma. You would rather have that degree/diploma, and be able to sit or resit for the boards (and for those who are not going to US, they can sit for their own boards after MD).

Would you still say and remain adamant the OP's question is a minor issue? You need to understand their plight because it is rightly so.

[MatCFAMD]

Many is a stretch...some is probably more accurate.

whether you like it or not, vmd is defacto a forum for primarily North American students looking to eventually train and practice in either the US and Canada...

and schools DO have other examination avenue fro those who truly don't plan to train or practice in the states (sgu requires passing scores on the BSCE I, BSCE II, and the CSCEs for graduation, but will accept I, CK, and CS IN LIEU of those exams)- so they are not forced to take those exams, but do have to take something.

Just because SGU does it, doesn't mean it is the way to do it and it is in the student's best interest. There is no rebuttal to having the students pass the Steps before they graduate, but the students should also not be disallowed to graduate if the board result is not satisfactory; they should be allowed to sit or re-sit for the boards after MD degree. There are a few years that each of the Steps stays valid for; also, the postgraduate training (which requires passing the first two steps) is not always entered immediately after graduation. Most programs require that the degree is obtained in the last five years prior to starting the postgraduate training. There are also thousands upon thousands of IMGs who sat for similar boards after years of graduation. So, to have the students disallowed to graduate for unsatisfactory board result (or equivalently, to require passing a Step in order to graduate), is downright downtrodding to the students.

[Staedtler]

I agree. good post.