Where Is The School Going?

[GQ-Loud]

I just wanted to know what do the current students think about where this school is heading?
I am an upper semester that will be graduating from basic science and feel that the school has been going through some strange changes...

It started about 3 semesters ago when 2 professors arrived after being dismissed from AUC...how is this possible for them to come here.
The Immuno exam just failed the smartest class in our school with 28 fails...scary...and the 1st semesters are failing like flies.

I hope something is taken care of and soon...

[covarubious]

the fail rates for anatomy and histo are brutal this semester! but don't they always start off bad and then even out? they have until may 2009 to fix it up lol

I just wanted to know what do the current students think about where this school is heading?
I am an upper semester that will be graduating from basic science and feel that the school has been going through some strange changes...

It started about 3 semesters ago when Dr. Wikstrand and Dr. ***** arrived after being fired from AUC...how is this possible for them to be fired and come here.
Dr. Wikstrand just failed the smartest class in our school with 28 fails...scary...and the 1st semesters are failing like flies.

I hope something is taken care of since this is scary for all our futures!!!

[GQ-Loud]

haha...well my class wasn't that bad...
hopefully things get fixed around though
but the immuno grade was insane...

[covarubious]

I will have to grab a few friend on msn who are in first semester and see what they thing. So far one of them is saying they raised the standard and are makin it rougher this semester... Scary!

haha...well my class wasn't that bad...
hopefully things get fixed around though
but the immuno grade was insane...

[GQ-Loud]

I bet this thread will be taken off since it causes disturbance lol...but actually its a constructive thread since I'm posting views from multiple students on their concerns.

[Boulderunner]

The Immuno exam just failed the smartest class in our school with 28 fails...scary...and the 1st semesters are failing like flies.

I hope something is taken care of and soon...



Smartest class in our school??? Obviously not if 28 people failed the immuno exam....I had the same prof for immuno and you guys got it soooo easy for micro compared to the old prof. so my advice is; put your man pants on and study harder....

[covarubious]

Nah, it'll only get taken off or locked for flaming or huge lies! lol you aren't being nasty and vendictive, you are raising valid concerns. I wouldn't worry.

I bet this thread will be taken off since it causes disturbance lol...but actually its a constructive thread since I'm posting views from multiple students on their concerns.

[GQ-Loud]

haha im not in that class i'm in the graduating class and im not talking about micro...you have no idea what happened...they made block 2 all immuno and 28 ppl failed from only immuno.
You are talking about the old micro prof well i had him and he was hard but he curved for us. This immuno prof won't nudge. Tough man for the upcoming semester, i think we dodged a bullet

[darkmansaad]

i think you guys should stop crying. sorry to be the guy to say it, when the brown stuff hits the fan you can wonder about the direction the school is taking or wonder about the direction you are taking. if even one person in the class is getting above a 90, why isnt that person you? there will be no curve on the usmle to save you; i had one of the profs from AUC his first semester in pathology, first exam average was hovering around a 60 and i got my first fail at a 69 on the exam. i could either cry about it and look for a curve or bust my *** to somehow make an A despite starting out with a 69. PS = my class which was the first class to get this guy who was initially hated on cuz of his no nonsense approach had over 10 people post 99's on the USMLE and many more above 95. Life is no place for excuses my friend

[GQ-Loud]

its true though, no matter what you get you have to work harder. I also heard like 10 ppl failed that class due to path though. But suck it up and work hard and I guess thats the only thing to do.

[Mike77]

I will have to grab a few friend on msn who are in first semester and see what they thing. So far one of them is saying they raised the standard and are makin it rougher this semester... Scary!


Your rank in the Saba class = not important at all.
Your score on the USMLE's = everything.

Who gives a crap if the profs are making it harder at Saba? People should stop seeming themselves as competing against Saba students... They're not.. They're competing against the other 40k people in their match year. Take a higher fail rate as a blessing so you work your *** off that much more.

And the whole 'where is Saba going?' nonsense? There will never be a shortage of people that will find a flaw in anything. I'm not even touching this with a 10 foot pool.

[covarubious]

how about a 10 foot pole? ;) the only thing that matters if profs are raising the bar is to be aware of it and be prepared. (failing out of Saba is not fun) the only person i am competing with is myself and I have high standards. ;)

Your rank in the Saba class = not important at all.
Your score on the USMLE's = everything.

Who gives a crap if the profs are making it harder at Saba? People should stop seeming themselves as competing against Saba students... They're not.. They're competing against the other 40k people in their match year. Take a higher fail rate as a blessing so you work your *** off that much more.

And the whole 'where is Saba going?' nonsense? There will never be a shortage of people that will find a flaw in anything. I'm not even touching this with a 10 foot pool.

[wolfvgang22]

Nah, it'll only get taken off or locked for flaming or huge lies! lol you aren't being nasty and vendictive, you are raising valid concerns. I wouldn't worry.
Right, no violations of Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php) and the thread stays. This site is not affiliated with any school censors or anything.

By where the school is going do you mean academically or financially?
If you mean financially I think the school will be fine and possible we will see more consolidation of the various schools under the EIC parent company if economic times continue to restrict availability of loans. But thats hard to say if that will really happen as long as there are a lot of Canadians willing to mortgage their soul to attend Saba...:lol: (joke, relax)
Also I'm not sure how many prospective students are able to finance Saba without student loans? Another thing to consider is that maybe Saba won't have any problem with revenue also if their in-house loan program works well. I for one couldn't go to Saba if I were to re-start med school today with the current poor loan situation.

A Dunn and Bradstreet analysis of the school might be an interesting excercise in due diligence. I don't think EIC will close down anytime soon, and Saba University is right now perhaps it #1 asset.

Topic switch:
Class rank does appear on your MSPE (deans letter). I don't think it matters too much as long as you are in the top half or so. And I think its way, way less important than USMLE scores.

[Mike77]

I think I agree with you. Financially, it will be fine, as long as it works out the loan situation. However, I think that if they didn't find a solution, they would still be fine financially for about 4 years, but they wouldn't be fine academically. They'd have to fill up the classes with kids that could pay, not with the best applicants. This would, of course, after a few years produce lower match/pass rates, leading to less applicants, and financial failure in the long run. That is my understanding of the situation. Agree?


I also figure that if Saba gets their own loan program, they will be unique among the good caribbean schools. Thus, all of the top applicants applying to the caribbean will most likely go there. At least until the credit crunch is over...

And I won't even joke. I would mortgage my soul to come to Saba. RBC was interested, but after a detailed analysis, they said it wasn't worth much in the long term and turned me down. Apparently if i decrease my treachery by 15%, i'll be up to a 700 in my rating, and they might consider me with a soul cosigner. My parents, having no soul, couldn't cosign. :)

Wolf, good to know.. I figure that in a caribbean school it would be even less important though, wouldn't it?


Right, no violations of <a href="http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php">Terms of Service</a> (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php) and the thread stays. This site is not affiliated with any school censors or anything.

By where the school is going do you mean academically or financially?
If you mean financially I think the school will be fine and possible we will see more consolidation of the various schools under the EIC parent company if economic times continue to restrict availability of loans. But thats hard to say if that will really happen as long as there are a lot of Canadians willing to mortgage their soul to attend Saba...:lol: (joke, relax)
Also I'm not sure how many prospective students are able to finance Saba without student loans? Another thing to consider is that maybe Saba won't have any problem with revenue also if their in-house loan program works well. I for one couldn't go to Saba if I were to re-start med school today with the current poor loan situation.

A Dunn and Bradstreet analysis of the school might be an interesting excercise in due diligence. I don't think EIC will close down anytime soon, and Saba University is right now perhaps it #1 asset.

Topic switch:
Class rank does appear on your MSPE (deans letter). I don't think it matters too much as long as you are in the top half or so. And I think its way, way less important than USMLE scores.

[rokshana]

Wolf, good to know.. I figure that in a caribbean school it would be even less important though, wouldn't it?

like anything else, gpa, evals, etc., generally a great one won't necessarily help you, but a bad one WILL hurt you...

[Mike77]

like anything else, gpa, evals, etc., generally a great one won't necessarily help you, but a bad one WILL hurt you...

That's what I thought, thanks.

[covarubious]

hmmm good point! thanks for the heads up!

like anything else, gpa, evals, etc., generally a great one won't necessarily help you, but a bad one WILL hurt you...

[JeebusLives]

Lmao if you were in 5th semester why would you kiss the current 3rd semester's rear-ends and call them the smartest class in the school. I call shenaningans on that one.

[Mike77]

Lmao if you were in 5th semester why would you kiss the current 3rd semester's rear-ends and call them the smartest class in the school. I call shenaningans on that one.

I call shenanigans on anyone being able to identify the 'smartest class in the school' period. I don't call shenanigans often.

[covarubious]

do you have him on speed dial? ;) i don't think he was being serious. ;) just a slight exageration to make a point...

I call shenanigans on anyone being able to identify the 'smartest class in the school' period. I don't call shenanigans often.

[JeebusLives]

My point is that the original poster is not likely a 5th semester student. He/She is just ust trying to keep any backlash from the professors directed towards a class besides his/her own. 5th semester still has to deal with one of the professors in question in all 3 of their block exams so it makes no sense for a 5th semester student to first admit to being in 5th semester and then go on to bash one of the professors that holds their grade in his hands.

Hence, Thus Therefore, Ergo, Shenanigans.

Big-Ups to thesaurus.com :D

[Mike77]

My point is that the original poster is not likely a 5th semester student. He/She is just ust trying to keep any backlash from the professors directed towards a class besides his/her own. 5th semester still has to deal with one of the professors in question in all 3 of their block exams so it makes no sense for a 5th semester student to first admit to being in 5th semester and then go on to bash one of the professors that holds their grade in his hands.

Hence, Thus Therefore, Ergo, Shenanigans.

Big-Ups to thesaurus.com :D
I see... Sorry, I just jump on the opportunity to call shenanigans every time... 'gets me into trouble... :)

[tpw2k]

I'm current 3rd semester and yes that test in question was ridiculous but the stuff we learned is important, it just wasnt presented in a way we learned it in class. But whatever, stuff like that happens, best you can do is build from it and work your butt off in micro.
Everything else is great, neuro prof is amazing (dont listen to what other ppl say about him), he teaches in a way that you are forced into learning the material in class and dont have to study much at home.

I also call shenanigans on the TS callin us smartest class :P

[Boulderunner]

I'm current 3rd semester and yes that test in question was ridiculous but the stuff we learned is important, it just wasnt presented in a way we learned it in class. But whatever, stuff like that happens, best you can do is build from it and work your butt off in micro.
Everything else is great, neuro prof is amazing (dont listen to what other ppl say about him), he teaches in a way that you are forced into learning the material in class and dont have to study much at home.

I also call shenanigans on the TS callin us smartest class :P



we had the same immuno exam prof and it wasnt that bad. Get used to that volume, becuase every day and every lecture is as intense as the immuno prof teaches in 4th and 5th semester. Shes trying to prep you for the "fun" in later semesters. And she actually does a really good job of getting you ready for path and for the shelf.

[MatCFAMD]

Am not discouraged by this.

After ace-ing a few subjects, it's not hard to be complacent. In contrast, students get a lot of help in Canadian medical schools so as not to fail. It is difficult to get in, but once in they give you all the hand you need. Overall, a lot of Saba students are landing competitive specialties, and a girl last year matched to general surgery in U of T, from Saba. I'm feeling that the expectation should be: it's still cut-throat, Saba IS a reputable school. No doubt about that. :shock:

I hope there's more than one prof that teaches same subject though. lol

If you fail an exam, and retake it, will it show on your transcript ?

I just wanted to know what do the current students think about where this school is heading?
I am an upper semester that will be graduating from basic science and feel that the school has been going through some strange changes...

It started about 3 semesters ago when 2 professors arrived after being dismissed from AUC...how is this possible for them to come here.
The Immuno exam just failed the smartest class in our school with 28 fails...scary...and the 1st semesters are failing like flies.

I hope something is taken care of and soon...

[darkmansaad]

.......................

[Experienced]

Smartest class in our school??? Obviously not if 28 people failed the immuno exam....I had the same prof for immuno and you guys got it soooo easy for micro compared to the old prof. so my advice is; put your man pants on and study harder....

LOL, who told you they are the smartest class in the school? Them? Again? :bored:

I can verify that several in that class HAVE set a record for largest undeserved egos in the school's history.

E.

-

[wolfvgang22]

Usually every september class is considered "the smartest class ever" until they hit a bump in the road and then everyone feels less threatened/inferior. :p

[JLea]

LOL, who told you they are the smartest class in the school? Them? Again? :bored:

I can verify that several in that class HAVE set a record for largest undeserved egos in the school's history.

E.

-


Hear, Hear!

[gumby]

Usually every september class is considered "the smartest class ever" until they hit a bump in the road and then everyone feels less threatened/inferior. :p

Isn't this universal for all med students. We think we are all that until we get owned on a test. Then reality sets in and we realize its going to be a long road ahead of us.

[Mike77]

Isn't this universal for all med students. We think we are all that until we get owned on a test. Then reality sets in and we realize its going to be a long road ahead of us.

Well I don't think people care about the rest of their classes abilities, but I would hope that everyones goes through that experience. Nobody wants a Doctor that thinks they're all that.

[GQ-Loud]

Iceman has no idea what has happened to this school right now.
He is in clinicals and hasn't have a single idea of whats going on.
All the lower semesters get a very bad vibe by the changes. When I was in first semester this place was amazing now its just different. They are treating us like little kids and stuff with all these new rules its pathetic.
Iceman if you have seen what changes have occurred due to the shift in power you would be complaining just like alot of the other students who are currently in basic science.

I have heard from previous students on saba that things like this happen though and then things come around again after a few semesters.

[darkmansaad]

i dont know whats going on but i do know one thing. Saba is a second chance school, plain and simple. If we all got accepted to schools in our respective countries then we wouldnt have to deal with stuff like this. Unfortunately we do and fortunately we got a 2nd chance. If you dont like it, leave or work hard so u get it over with as fast as possible, no one is making you stay with a gun to your head.

[anjaligirl]

I'm usually the first one to defend SABA but things have def. been off around here.
We are being asked to bring our ID to all our exams, and that may seem strange that I am complaining about it, but in a school of 300 students most people know who we are. The excuse is that, they want it to be more like USMLE and the shelf exams. Well then maybe we should also do paper exams from now on.
If you don't bring your ID, you cant write the exam, you have to make it up later in the semester and the maximum mark you can get it 78. Who came up with that number?
We have had some really great profs leave and some really bad ones who can't teach come in.
The first semester are falling like flies and are being encouraged to drop by the admin.
The end motive seems to be much more about making a quick buck off these guys than making sure they get through med school.
Whats going on here? I used to like this place?

I know this is about a second chance, but we have to be given a chance...and I really don't feel that we are getting that.

[wolfvgang22]

Even when I was on the island a year and a half ago we had to show our student I.D. to take exams, so that is not new. I do think it is silly in such a small school. I recall that we also had a mix of very good and poor professors.
What other rules are there that are new?

Of course many people will tell you suck it up and that you will see quite a bit more of rules that make no sense out in the clinical world, and this is true. However if there is something that can be done about such silly rules, it should be done. There is enough regulations already if the goal is simply to build discipline.

Hang in there!

[AZcopperJim]

All I know is 'Soul Train' was sold to an entertainment corporation. Totally lame!!

[JeebusLives]

I only showed my ID once before this semester. So the enforcement of the rule is new. And tha punishment is ridiculous.

I think the number of anatomy drops is 30. With 15 having just left the island. Thats alot in my opinion. Probably like 2.5 million dollars in lost tuition for equinox capital. Theyre not going to like spending all this money for a new building to expand class sizes but losing out on whatever new profit they were planning on making.

One professor didnt like that the class average on one exam was too high and decided to make the next exam killer. So a professor made what they thought was a fair exam but increased the difficulty of the next solely based on their opinion that the average was too high. Ridiculous.

Now histo has a 32 point cummulative final exam. Along with the new emphasis on physio and path correlations its become alot more difficult than in my day.

I expect the school to chill out soon. They already gave some retrograde curves in Histo because too many were failing.

The school is run by a business now. Having students drop like flies is not good business. Both for lost tuition, increasing attrition rate and loan companies seeing that saba students are a bad investment.

The students that graduated from here before this anti-student movement made fine doctors. Dont fix a system that aint broke.

[mower1000]

I think the number of anatomy drops is 30. With 15 having just left the island. Thats alot in my opinion.

Are those numbers right? That is a lot! Maybe I don't understand what happens when a student "drops"? Do they repeat all of that semester's courses the next semester? Does that mean 30 out of 80ish students have to repeat this semester? That seems alarmingly high. Personally, I'm concerned about running up $17K+ debt a semester if the odds are that poor that I would get thru. If I don't get into a US school (which I probably won't because of my older age), I would really hate to run up incredible sums of debt at a foreign school unless I'm reasonably assured that I can get thru it. I don't expect it to be any easier than a US school (because the USMLE won't be any easier for FMG), but I certainly don't want it to be any harder.

Thoughts from current students at Saba?

[JeebusLives]

numbers tend to get inflated when spread by word of mouth so i dont know if it was exactly that high or rounded up that high but either way it really is an insane amount.

i believe that most of the students who just left the island probably transferred to another school.

[covarubious]

was talking to a buddy of mine in first semester and those numbers aren't too far off. after block one he says 50 people failed histo, 38 anatomy. as of last night at least 8 people have dropped out, more then 12 have dropped anatomy... that does sound higher than normal... btw hes getting A's so it is doable...

numbers tend to get inflated when spread by word of mouth so i dont know if it was exactly that high or rounded up that high but either way it really is an insane amount.

i believe that most of the students who just left the island probably transferred to another school.

[mower1000]

Thanks for the replies. Does anybody knows exactly happens when you drop a course? I'm sure you have to repeat it, but do you take the course by itself the following semester or do you take a reduced load with some other courses, etc.

[Reactant]

Thanks for the replies. Does anybody knows exactly happens when you drop a course? I'm sure you have to repeat it, but do you take the course by itself the following semester or do you take a reduced load with some other courses, etc.

reduced load with some other courses

[health6375]

The third semester really is a strong class. Their mistake was in acing the first immuno exam. The prof hates that. She told them straight out that if they did well on an exam there was something wrong with the test. Pretty motivational. Best strategy is to stop trying so hard on immuno. You'll just get punished if you do well. Study hard for micro and you'll make it up.

[aspiringmedstudent]

I just finished 5th - been off island for a few months. Just to give you perspective.

My class was the first to have the immuno instructor. She was tough, even for us. I am looking at the stats for the first two tests. The first test was totally hers and the second test was mostly hers with a bit of Micro. I am not sure if the schedule is the same, but first test was immuno intro and the second test was mostly immuno plus staph, strep, and G- rods. (I think). Anyway, the stats here are, in a class of 66 - there were 18 fails on Block 1 and 22 fails on Block 2. This isn't too far away from what I'm hearing now. We were a September class, but as far as being a "smart class" - I won't comment - because every class thinks they are THE smart class. A crock, really.....

As far as first semester goes, it's all here-say, and probably a lot of people coming to medical school thinking they can handle it like they did undergrad. For most students, this will not fly. I know there were problems last semester in Histo with people "cheating" although I am still not sure what went on. It seemed like the Histo professor decided to change the exam at the last minute when he found out. Those who were supposedly cheating got screwed royally, and those who studied as usual still got a bit screwed because it was my understanding that it was more difficult than usual. Since then, based on what I'm hearing through friends still on Saba and through valuemd, it seems he's letting up very much. Looking back at the stats from my class' Histo tests - 32 people failed Block 1. So I don't feel too sorry for yas ;-) The numbers went down after that though. 13 fails in Block 2, 2 fails in Block 3, 8 fails in Block 4, and 2 fails in Block 5. We didn't get many curves for Histo as far as I remember, except for on the last exam.

Anyway.. Good luck to you all. Hope things pick up. ;-)

Godspeed.

[BrendaB_MD]

The standard deviation of the mean is proportional to the inverse of the square root of n. Thus, the average performance of a class should be quite stable.

On the other hand, the difficulty of a test can show wide variability. Thus, a test in which a large number of people unexpectedly fail is more likely a reflection on the test (or some other outside influence) than on the ability of the test takers. Thus, as Norman as Steiner discuss in their text Health Measurement Scales, criterion based exams (i.e. non curved) are very hard to justify from a statistical standpoint. Your recent immuno exam experience is a good illustration of this point.

The USMLE is not a good comparison. First of all, the questions in the USMLE are tested. Second, the number of questions is large (350). Thus, you would not expect significant variations in test difficulty. Lastly, I believe the USMLE is curved. The scores do not reflect a staight percentage. Rather, they are scaled which typically means that they are transformed to give a desired mean and standard deviation (much like an IQ test score). A failing score does not represent a fixed percentage. Rather, it means that the score is a certain distance from the mean of USMGs.

The good news is that the USMLE protects from bad exams by strict quality control and by norm based scales. Unfortunately, neither of these seem to apply in your immunology course.

[AZcopperJim]

sounds about right.

[MatCFAMD]

The tests given in classrooms often lack standardization, and are also subject to bias, although they still do retain the internal validity of the tests. When the class distribution is extremely skewed, there is bias relative to the design of the test. Frequently it is not only the students' ability but their preparation as the culprit to low class performance. And preparation is two-way street. The designer of the test should familiarize the test takers as to just how difficult and what the format of the test is. Typically, Profs can and should give sample test questions (say five or ten questions) only to give the students an idea of the level of difficulty and the scope of the test, so it's fair, and the design of the test is also reliable and valid. Preparation is key, but it is two-way street. If you were to take MCAT without knowing the level of difficulty and the format, you will surely perform poorly, not due to your intrinsic ability, but to lack of preparation (which is brought about by lack of familiarity and information). In class, the students are at the mercy of the Prof who can choose to design at whim an extremely difficult test which may lack the internal validity that the test is intended to serve, ie, testing students’ mastery of the material but outside the bounds, scope, and with unreasonable level of difficulty (example, designing test questions for Physiology as if the class consists of Physiology Ph.D students).

It is not enough, however, that a distribution be skewed, for it to be biased. The degree of skewness, which can be quantified, will reveal bias in the design of the test. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to say that there is enough variability in terms of tests/exam across each class, and across medical schools, not only in the US, Canada, but also around the world. How the test is designed is important. The situation, cited by the OP in their Immuno class or blocks where there are a lot of failures, only reflects the typical variabilities prevalent in designing a test, I’d be, however, hesitant to go out on a limb and view the design of the test as flawed. The objective is to test the students’ mastery of the material, without regard to whether the outcome of the distribution is going to be normally distributed or not.

Just how much the tests given in the class (or any class for that matter) mimic the USMLE Step 1 is subject to skepticism for one reason I cited above. Also, I do not agree that the USMLE is bell-curved, it is important to recognize that the bar is set and the exam is designed to test mastery of a large set of body of knowledge, again, without regard to whether the outcome of the distribution is going to be normally distributed or not. The student’s score is relative to the mastery required by the exam (that the student should have acquired), and not to the other exam takers’ performance. Furthermore, a student’s USMLE Step 1 score is best interpreted in terms of the mastery acquired in the basic sciences relative to the bar set. It is never interpreted in terms of percentile where a student’s score is relative to other students’. However, that’s only one aspect, because the distribution of the scores will reveal that the curve is skewed positively, and the population mean is greater than the mode. In other words, while it remains that your Step 1 score is relative to the mastery of the material and the degree of difficulty without regards to other’s performance, the final distribution of all scores is not bell-curved. IF Step 1 is bell-curved, the median will cover the minimum passing score set, plus the corresponding +/- standard deviations. But Step 1 distribution of the population is not bell-curved. What this is telling us is that people in general do reach and surpass the minimum bar set (which is the minimum passing score). Now because exam takers come from different and diversed schools, it is logical to say that the performance, to a much larger extent, is due largely to individual effort. You can run an analysis of variance of this, comparing the general population vs. a random school population, and will reveal the same.

Thus, if the students suspect that the design of the test is flawed, ie, the scope and the level of difficulty is not suitable to undergraduate MD, there is warrant in the protest; whereas, if the failure rate is attributed to the lack of normality in the class performance alone, it lacks warrant. The test is not (and should not be) designed to yield normal distribution. The test is ought to be designed to test the mastery of body of knowledge, without regard whether the final distribution will be normal or not. Thus, you can have a situation where 90% of the class pass, or you could have the opposite outcome. When you have a situation like this, you know the class test performance quite possibly does mimic the USMLE final outcome (and when you see a normal distribution for class performance, you know it does not possess the descriptive quality of the USMLE population! Because USMLE - it ain't normal -- and neither should the class test performance).

The standard deviation of the mean is proportional to the inverse of the square root of n. Thus, the average performance of a class should be quite stable.

On the other hand, the difficulty of a test can show wide variability. Thus, a test in which a large number of people unexpectedly fail is more likely a reflection on the test (or some other outside influence) than on the ability of the test takers. Thus, as Norman as Steiner discuss in their text Health Measurement Scales, criterion based exams (i.e. non curved) are very hard to justify from a statistical standpoint. Your recent immuno exam experience is a good illustration of this point.

The USMLE is not a good comparison. First of all, the questions in the USMLE are tested. Second, the number of questions is large (350). Thus, you would not expect significant variations in test difficulty. Lastly, I believe the USMLE is curved. The scores do not reflect a staight percentage. Rather, they are scaled which typically means that they are transformed to give a desired mean and standard deviation (much like an IQ test score). A failing score does not represent a fixed percentage. Rather, it means that the score is a certain distance from the mean of USMGs.

The good news is that the USMLE protects from bad exams by strict quality control and by norm based scales. Unfortunately, neither of these seem to apply in your immunology course.

[BrendaB_MD]

The USMLE site says the scores are scaled in order to allow valid comparisons between years. Thus, a score of 205 obtained in 2001 means the same thing as a score of 205 in 2008. With respect to the minimum passing score, I am not sure whether it is relative measure (i.e. a curve) or criterion based (based on an arbitrary standard). I suspect it is some of both.

I am not sure what you were trying to say about class exams. A skewed distrubtion does not imply bias (I am not sure what bias even means in this context). Further, there is nothing magical about a normal distribution. Nothing that I said assumes anything about a normal distribution.

You are correct that exams have variability; however, the question is whether there is something unusual about the immuno exam. You can easily devise a statisical test of the proposition that the exam is unusual by by comparing this exam to the pass rate on the immuno exam to the average pass rate on other exams.

So, the question has nothing to do with whether the results were normally distributed -- the question is whether the test was unreasonably difficult. Given the high fail rate, it seems likely that it was.




The tests given in classrooms often lack standardization, and are also subject to bias, although they still do retain the internal validity of the tests. When the class distribution is extremely skewed, there is bias relative to the design of the test. Frequently it is not only the students' ability but their preparation as the culprit to low class performance. And preparation is two-way street. The designer of the test should familiarize the test takers as to just how difficult and what the format of the test is. Typically, Profs can and should give sample test questions (say five or ten questions) only to give the students an idea of the level of difficulty and the scope of the test, so it's fair, and the design of the test is also reliable and valid. Preparation is key, but it is two-way street. If you were to take MCAT without knowing the level of difficulty and the format, you will surely perform poorly, not due to your intrinsic ability, but to lack of preparation (which is brought about by lack of familiarity and information). In class, the students are at the mercy of the Prof who can choose to design at whim an extremely difficult test which may lack the internal validity that the test is intended to serve, ie, testing students’ mastery of the material but outside the bounds, scope, and with unreasonable level of difficulty (example, designing test questions for Physiology as if the class consists of Physiology Ph.D students).

It is not enough, however, that a distribution be skewed, for it to be biased. The degree of skewness, which can be quantified, will reveal bias in the design of the test. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to say that there is enough variability in terms of tests/exam across each class, and across medical schools, not only in the US, Canada, but also around the world. How the test is designed is important. The situation, cited by the OP in their Immuno class or blocks where there are a lot of failures, only reflects the typical variabilities prevalent in designing a test, I’d be, however, hesitant to go out on a limb and view the design of the test as flawed. The objective is to test the students’ mastery of the material, without regard to whether the outcome of the distribution is going to be normally distributed or not.

Just how much the tests given in the class (or any class for that matter) mimics the USMLE Step 1 is subject to skepticism for one reason I cited above. Also, I do not agree that the USMLE is bell-curved, it is important to recognize that the bar is set and the exam is designed to test mastery of a large set of body of knowledge, again, without regard to whether the outcome of the distribution is going to be normally distributed or not. The student’s score is relative to the mastery required by the exam (that the student should have acquired), and not to the other exam takers’ performance. Therefore, a student’s USMLE Step 1 score is best interpreted in terms of the mastery acquired in the basic sciences relative to the bar set. It is never interpreted in terms of percentile where a student’s score is relative to other students’. However, that’s only one aspect, because the distribution of the scores will reveal that the curve is skewed positively, and the population mean is greater than the mode. In other words, while it remains that your Step 1 score is relative to the mastery of the material and the degree of difficulty without regards to other’s performance , the final distribution of all scores is not bell-curved. It it’s bell-curved, the median will cover the minimum passing score set, plus the corresponding standard deviations. But it is not. What this is telling us is that people in general do reach and surpass the minimum bar set (which is the minimum passing score). Now because exam takers come from different and diversed schools, it is logical to say that the performance, to a much larger extent, is due largely to individual effort. You can run an analysis of variance of this, comparing the general population vs. a random school population, and will reveal the same.

Thus, if the students suspect that the design of the test is flawed, ie, the scope and the level of difficulty is not suitable to undergraduate MD, there is warrant in the protest; whereas, if the failure rate is attributed to the lack of normality in the class performance alone, it lacks warrant. The test is not designed to yield normal distribution. The test is ought to be designed to test the mastery of body of knowledge, without regard whether the final distribution will be normal or not. Thus, you can have a situation where 90% of the class pass, or you could have the opposite outcome.

[KarmaInsight]

Just how much the tests given in the class (or any class for that matter) mimic the USMLE Step 1 is subject to skepticism for one reason I cited above.

Depends on the class. Anatomy is ultra low yield, nothing against Dr. R. Just know the 3 P's well and your fine. Path, Physio and Pharm. 90% of the test was Path-Physio. It's safe to say that Saba has very good teachers for these (Dr S, Dr J, Dr M and even Dr L). As hard as Dr. W is in immuno she did teach good basics for Path and made some things a joke later on. So have pain now then pleasure later or vice versa?

[health6375]

Enough abuse for the Third semester already. I don't even think it was a Third who made the unfortunate "smart class" comment. In fact they handily beat the national average on all three Shelfs, Anatomy, Physiology, and Biochemistry. Did your class do that? Mine sure didn't. The point was that they were strong enough, and prepared enough that half of them shouldn't have failed. Of course they'll buck it up and shove past the tests of the AUC profs. But they also have a right to complain if they get hosed.

[AZcopperJim]

What difference does it make? None; nothing will change. Btw 'they' read these posts.

[aspiringmedstudent]

I am not so sure about the 3 P's. Based on friends who have just recently taken their Step 1, the subject percentages are varying between tests. This isn't to attack what you're saying, though. The 3 P's are the main things to concentrate on, indeed, because they encompass the bulk of material taught in medical school, period. But to all you 5ths who will start studying for Step 1 soon - don't neglect your Biochem and Micro! It seems that Biochem, especially, is being tested more heavily.

Depends on the class. Anatomy is ultra low yield, nothing against Dr. R. Just know the 3 P's well and your fine. Path, Physio and Pharm. 90% of the test was Path-Physio. It's safe to say that Saba has very good teachers for these (Dr S, Dr J, Dr M and even Dr L). As hard as Dr. W is in immuno she did teach good basics for Path and made some things a joke later on. So have pain now then pleasure later or vice versa?

[darkmansaad]

the only reason any class on saba beats "the national avg" on shelfs is that a) shelfs dont normally count for american students so they pay them no mind
b) for the ones that they do count, american students take all their shelves AT ONCE, yes every shelf exam in a few days period with maybe a weekend to study. No week+ period to cram goljan before a path shelf that would otherwise pwn the herbs

dont get too cocky herbs

[MatCFAMD]

The standard deviation of the mean is proportional to the inverse of the square root of n. Thus, the average performance of a class should be quite stable.
Brenda, the standard deviation of the mean is the best measure of the spread when your distribution is approximately normal. And the standard deviation of the mean is not best measure of the spread, when your distribution is skewed (or less normal). Your assertion that the average performance of a class should be quite stable (see below) is built on your use of the standard deviation of the mean as the measure of the spread. You were implicitly assuming a normal distribution [re: "I was not assuming the distribution is normal" -- see your post above].


On the other hand, the difficulty of a test can show wide variability. Thus, a test in which a large number of people unexpectedly fail is more likely a reflection on the test (or some other outside influence) than on the ability of the test takers. Thus, as Norman as Steiner discuss in their text Health Measurement Scales, criterion based exams (i.e. non curved) are very hard to justify from a statistical standpoint. Your recent immuno exam experience is a good illustration of this point.

The situation where a large number of people unexpectedly fail is not necessarily a reflection of the test. I made the argument (see previous post) that the design of the test is a skill, but the student's preparation is also key. And the preparation is two-way. Even when the test is designed appropriately (and hence it is not the test that is the culprit), you can still have a situation where there's going to be a lot of fails: the students were not prepped for and not familiar with the Prof's style of giving the exam. This frequently happens when a given class is the guinea pig and was taught for the first time by a new Prof/Lecturer (ie, Prof. has not taught previous classes in the same school) - which was described by the OP. I cited the case of MCAT where you can perform poorly if you are not prepared. You can literally have thousands of people performing poorly and the test is not the culprit (of course not) for poor performance, but it is the lack of preparation. And it's not necessarily the student's doing either, but the Prof needs to be clear in communicating to the students on the particulars of the exam (scope, format, rigour).


The USMLE is not a good comparison. First of all, the questions in the USMLE are tested. Second, the number of questions is large (350). Thus, you would not expect significant variations in test difficulty. Lastly, I believe the USMLE is curved. The scores do not reflect a staight percentage. Rather, they are scaled which typically means that they are transformed to give a desired mean and standard deviation (much like an IQ test score).

The USMLE is scaled to also protect the reliability and consistency of the test from year-to-year. The test must be high in reliability, ie, if the test is administered repeatedly, the test should yield the same distribution result - unless there is a dramatic shift in the charateristics of the population). The same is true with MCAT, the scores are scaled. And the distribution from year-to-year reflects the characteristics of the population (of test takers).


A failing score does not represent a fixed percentage.
Any score does not represent a fixed percentage. Step 1 score is not a percentile rank. There is a standard to meet, the score is relative to that standard, and not to the performance of other USMLE test takers.


Rather, it (the failing score) means that the score is a certain distance from the mean of USMGs.
A failing score on Step 1 means a certain distance from the mean of the US medical students?? -- That's not what a failing score means. The distance from the USMG score mean is after the fact, post-test measurement. But by no means the failing score is pre-set to yield a particular distance from the USMG mean. To support this assertion, the minimum passing score has been the same or constant for the last several years (until this year, where the new 2008 USMLE Step 1 minimum passing score (MPS) is 185), but the mean of the US medical students varied, and in recent years around 215, with a standard deviation of 23.

The minimum passing score (MPS) is not set using the USMG mean alone, if used at all. Your assertion about what a failing score means is akin to "If the estimated USMG mean score is x, then let's set the MPS at this score y.", for if that were true, the MPS should be much higher. With the increase in the minimum passing score to 185 (beginning in 2008), there is no indication or documents published that it is due to increase in the USMG mean score.


The good news is that the USMLE protects from bad exams by strict quality control and by norm based scales. Unfortunately, neither of these seem to apply in your immunology course.
The distribution of the class test performance should closely resemble those from US medical schools and the USMLE Step 1, for the Caribbean schools are built to model the US curriculum and to best prepare their students for the US Boards. Because the US students' overall performance is not normally distributed (both in school and USMLE) -- the distributions are positively skewed -- what a student from Caribbean should look for is a positively skewed distribution in their class test performance also, not a normal distribution.

[BrendaB_MD]

Thanks for the stats lesson but you are mistaken. A standard deviation can be calculated for any distribution and the standard deviation of the sampling distribution (i.e. the distribution of the mean of the distribution) decreases as the sample size gets larger. This fact is true for any distribution. This is why results are more accurate if you take a large sample and it is why class performance (n=100) would be expected to have low variability. It has nothing to do with whether the underlying distribution is normal. It turns out, however, that the mean of a sampling distribution is always asymptotically normal by the central limit theorem. So, for any distribution of scores, the standard deviation of the average score decreases as the number of scores increases and the distribution of the average becomes normal. (for a proof, see Wackerly et al. Mathematical Statistics with Applications 6th ed, pp 332 for a proof)




Brenda, the standard deviation of the mean is the best measure of the spread when your distribution is approximately normal. And the standard deviation of the mean is not best measure of the spread, when your distribution is skewed (or less normal). Your assertion that the average performance of a class should be quite stable (see below) is built on your use of the standard deviation of the mean as the measure of the spread. You were implicitly assuming a normal distribution [re: "I was not assuming the distribution is normal" -- yes you were, read your assertion right above].

[MatCFAMD]

:truce:
.............

[golfman]

Brenda, u should stop now.

[Experienced]

Yikes, the wonks are out tonight :shock:

[JeebusLives]

whats all this statistical analysis? They got almost an A avg on 1st test, then almost an F avg on second. Its the examiner's fault not the examinee. Dont need some fancy stats for that. LOLZ!

And besides path shelf weve been taking them along with finals so its not like we got all the time in the world to study. And 2nd semester its 3 shelves in 3 days along with 3 finals, 3rd semester its 2 shelves in 1 day along with 3 finals in 3 days, 4th semester ill concede that 1 shelf along with finals isnt so bad, and 5th semester u get 6 days to study so i can see where youre coming from.

Either way i guess we are "herbs" for ending up on Saba :D

And if one of us herbs makes it through and gets say a 248 it gives the rest of the herbs hope :p

[KingMo]

Wow...okay I didn't read the enormously long posts. But aspiringmed said that micro and biochem are both high yield. My exam had a fair bit of biochem on it...enough that I was glad I studied it. Yes, Micro is also important. The great thing about Path is that often times it is integrative, so it touches on all the other subjects in varying degree. So the three Ps and the M and the B. And epi is always fast points, so don't forget the E.

"Don't get too cocky herbs"...LOL.

[BrendaB_MD]

You are absolutely right. I just like to use stats because I used to teach stats before I went to medical school. But you are right, sometimes the data is so obvious you don't need stats to prove a point.

whats all this statistical analysis? They got almost an A avg on 1st test, then almost an F avg on second. Its the examiner's fault not the examinee. Dont need some fancy stats for that.

[AZcopperJim]

Lets us examine the 1st inane rebuttal, including stat analysis & specifically the choice of vocabulary. Let us consider the motivation to defend this professor's exam methods. I believe the answer to our question can be found in WIKIPEDIA:beat:. Still, nothing good will happen. There will be no positive change.
Inane = typical wikipedia stilted language

[wolfvgang22]

Everyone:
Please be aware that criticizing ideas is okay, but attacking people is not ok as flaming or insulting other users is against Terms of Service.
Thank you.

[island42]

Most of us will get by a few questionable tests by a couple of profs. What actually irks me more are all the rules they throw at us nearly every week. Just two semesters ago they bragged that we had an 88% first time USMLE pass rate. Then for some reason they started changing everything. Now before every test the Dean's wife stands up and reads us a long list of testing "Do's and Don'tbs". If we don't put our Saba ID on the top of the computer, our highest possible score is 78??!! And we had to go to a "mandatory" pizza party with our advisors the night before some students had an exam. Am I really in medical school?

[amyames]

sucks to hear about all the negative changes on Saba, but as many have said before...it's all up to you no matter what situation arises. so even if you think the professors are worse than normal just get your butt into gear and study harder than ever. even with good professors, it is all up to you in the end.

then again some positive changes are occurring. I hear the fifth semester now takes the NBME comp instead of the awful Kaplan "exit exam" to get off the island. What a great way to track your progress before you leave the island. It's also the best way to know if you need to complete a program such as PASS and FALCON after you leave Saba...and yah they say the programs fill up fast, but believe me...for money, they can find room for ya if you want to attend a program! btw, how do they score the NMBE comp?

all i really want to say is study well now..starting from first semester. I recommend people go home over the break and buy first aid. go to the local print shop and have them de-bind the book and hole punch it. stick it into a notebook and while on Saba add all your notes (because the margins are way to small for any good notetaking!!), and when you are in fifth you will have the ultimate step 1 study bible. go home during the break, rebind the book...and go kick butt on step 1. it's what I have been doing NOW AFTER fifth and I wish I had been doing it all along, for it would have saved me loads of time.

[darkmansaad]

if any of you have bought alcohol in your life im sure you showed ur id then and didnt go talk about it on an internet forum. this is honestly hilarious im sure things are bad but showing identification and hard tests are seriously not the real reason u are questioning where things are going. if so stay away from hospitals as you have to show identification AT ALL TIMES and you have to perform "hard tests" as well such as the digital rectal exam, need i say more?

[JeebusLives]

hmm do you really have to show id at a hostpital where the total # of employees is 60?

dunno about that.

The appeal of saba is supposed to be the small class sizes where you expect everyone to know everyone. Its not too big of a deal, the ID thing but its just wierd to make rules that go against what your appeal is supposed to be. Also again the penalty is redonkulous.

Also another rule that they are trying to start enforcing is that if you don't show up 10 minutes early, you are late, and it hold the same penalty as the ID rule which is that you can't take the exam until an exam make up date which is august 1st this semester and the max u can get is a 78.

Is the rule at hospitals that if you forget your ID or show up late that you get instantly fired? Hope not.

Semi-Reasonble rules, penalty is not.

[golfman]

Darkman Zoolander, I think that Jeebus just gave you the patented Magnum look that you invented. Before you go into your acceptance speech for winning the Male model of the year for the 3rd consecutive time make sure that it isn't Jeebus whose name is called. :)

[Experienced]

Uh-oh, here's where it starts to get gay for a few messages, as the body builders exhange a few hoohahs and then leave.

Not to worry, one of them accidentally stumbled into this thread - just wait it out and then we can resume our dialogue.

E.

-

[golfman]

Uh-oh, here's where it starts to get gay for a few messages, as the body builders exhange a few hoohahs and then leave.

Not to worry, one of them accidentally stumbled into this thread - just wait it out and then we can resume our dialogue.

E.

-

Hahaha. Don't worry, I was only referencing the movie Zoolander.

[darkmansaad]

first off jeebus never addressed the issue of giving digital rectal exams, possibly the toughest exam to give on earth (or to take as well)

2ndly as far as showing ur id i was referring to real hospitals aka ones u will be rotating in and working not the saba one. i was just saying im sure things are getting worse but showing your id can not seriously be the peak issue that is riling u up. and as for showing up early, well consider it practice for later on in life. i do agree a 22 point cut for being late is kind of rough however showing up late for other things like usmle = u get a zero so im not sure these 2 things would irritate me and trust me many things irritated me on saba

and i am an actor slash model, not the other way around; and whos the other bodybuilder on this thread?

[island42]

Don't for a minute buy the idea that we only do well on the Shelf because the "smart kids" in the US don't try very hard; an idea likely promoted by US students who hate to be beaten by a "lowly" caribbean med student. The National Board website is pretty clear on how they make sure their Shelf exams are good indicators of our strength. The percentiles are based on a large sample of students who answered the same questions "as part of an end-of-course final exam". Some schools may use the test differently, but they aren't part of the calculation. So we're compared to students who take the exam pretty much like we do. Also, any student I've talked to who scored high on our Shelfs also beat the national average on the USMLE. Surely you don't suggest US students don't try hard on that exam. If I beat the national average on a Shelf exam, I have a right to feel positive about it.

[GQ-Loud]

When it comes down to it these changes are ridiculous and the students should of had a say before the rules were initiated.
The new dean of students doesn't even care about the students anymore so our voices are not being heard.
I hope they replace her and fast. Things need to go back to the way they used to be. SUSOM is a great school for a reason and these people are ruining it.

[Boulderunner]

Don't for a minute buy the idea that we only do well on the Shelf because the "smart kids" in the US don't try very hard; an idea likely promoted by US students who hate to be beaten by a "lowly" caribbean med student. The National Board website is pretty clear on how they make sure their Shelf exams are good indicators of our strength. The percentiles are based on a large sample of students who answered the same questions "as part of an end-of-course final exam". Some schools may use the test differently, but they aren't part of the calculation. So we're compared to students who take the exam pretty much like we do. Also, any student I've talked to who scored high on our Shelfs also beat the national average on the USMLE. Surely you don't suggest US students don't try hard on that exam. If I beat the national average on a Shelf exam, I have a right to feel positive about it.

actually there are schools in the us that administer the shelfs but dont count them or make them optional. or like saad said they are all administered together. And also just becuase you beat the national average doesnt exactly equate to smartest class ever. You got beat out by ~ half of the us students. getting a big head by beating the average is like bragging about getting an 80 on an exam. Unless you got a raw score in the nineties (as in before the 15+ point curves saba gives) I would maintain an attitude of humility and just study your butt off. I really think that the new rules are just in place to up the standards at saba. They are trying to push the scores up and better the rep of the school. And saad, Ive been hitting the Ab-deck pretty heavy at the school gym and well Im not into bragging but Ive been selling tickets to the gun show.....

[JeebusLives]

isnt the standard deviation for a shelf like 8 points? So a 78 means that you were in the top 86% or something if the avg is a 70. A score in the 90s would be almost impossible since its almost 3 standard deviations up from average.

The "curves" youre referring to arent curves. From what ive heard the passing grade for a shelf is a 55 and the avg is a 70. So of course they have to add points because its a different grading scale. 15 points is the minimum we should receive to get the averages matching (assuming your class average is an 85 on all exams) 20 points would make sense as well because it would make passing on shelf equal to passing an exam on saba (75 on a class exam). So dont act like theyre doing us a favor by adding points. Its the only way they can use a shelf grade with our class grades.

[jabee_usm]

Geesh, such long comments!

[darkmansaad]

the only day you can sit down and tell yourself that your doing good is the day you match into the program of your choice. every other day i suggest you work hard and adopt the attitude that nothing is good enough, it works wonders.

unless you are also working out really hard and you get jacked up with killer abs and/or a bench press that simulates your Step 1 score, then you can get cocky and talk smack on valuemd. for that is what separates us from the herb

[covarubious]

did anybody else hear about the robberies that have been happening on the island? been reading a few things on facebook... true or no?

[gumby]

the only day you can sit down and tell yourself that your doing good is the day you match into the program of your choice. every other day i suggest you work hard and adopt the attitude that nothing is good enough, it works wonders.

unless you are also working out really hard and you get jacked up with killer abs and/or a bench press that simulates your Step 1 score, then you can get cocky and talk smack on valuemd. for that is what separates us from the herb

So by improving my bench, I can achieve oneness with the USMLE? How many plates must I bench to get a 248/99?

[Boulderunner]

isnt the standard deviation for a shelf like 8 points? So a 78 means that you were in the top 86% or something if the avg is a 70. A score in the 90s would be almost impossible since its almost 3 standard deviations up from average.

well if thats the case then saba students have achieved the "impossible". I personally know students that scored between 88-90 RAW on the path shelf just last semester.And which shelf are you referring to that has a pass of a 55, becuase the pass and average depends on the shelf.

[Gigi25]

Iceman has no idea what has happened to this school right now.
He is in clinicals and hasn't have a single idea of whats going on.
All the lower semesters get a very bad vibe by the changes. When I was in first semester this place was amazing now its just different. They are treating us like little kids and stuff with all these new rules its pathetic.
Iceman if you have seen what changes have occurred due to the shift in power you would be complaining just like alot of the other students who are currently in basic science.

I have heard from previous students on saba that things like this happen though and then things come around again after a few semesters.
This all sounds so familiar!!! There are always little problems on the island. Instructors who are not "fair", classes that get "blacklisted" for misbehaviour, etc. The school goes through its rough times and usually bounces back. The loan situation is new and disturbing. As wolf said, I probably could not have attended Saba if the loan situation was what it is now. I would probably be posting on AUC or SGU's forum!!

[darkmansaad]

To sum up matters so far =
a)some people think the schools new policies are too tough and unfair
b) other people think the people who share the above point of view need to toughen up

these groups will never agree so lets not beat that dead horse with a stick, which brings us to point c

c) large diesel pectorals and/or abs you could grate mozzarella cheese on appear to give a distinct evolutionary advantage to the saba student, elevating them to a level above the common herb on the food chain. No definitive double blinded study exists but case studies exist of the Iceman, Maverick and now the Boulderrunner and Gumby that seem to provide some sort of positive correlation. The only conclusion we can draw from these studies is that being diesel cannot possibly hurt your grades.

Now that we have summed up the important arguments in this thread, it is time to let it die a natural course. Hopefully new exciting threads will pop up, maybe covarubious would be kind enough to start one? (PS this is not flaming, i better not get reported to a moderator again and get an infraction for saying the word herb)

[AZcopperJim]

Clueless & out of touch

[JeebusLives]

Clueless & out of touch

Can't blame him it’s been almost a year since he left. Doesn't realize the magnitude to which things have been changing. The best professor here (Dr. J) is getting disrespected and persecuted for giving a 3 point curve to us last block (wasn’t really a curve, 2 questions were mis-keyed). According to him 1 more time and he'll be leaving the school.

Just look at the professors that have left (i won’t go into who they've been replaced by because it may be considered libel):

Anatomy: Dr. S, one of the best professors I’ve ever had (saying a lot since anatomy is a very dry topic) and Dr. R (hasn't left yet but soon) who was Dr. S's mentor and one of the most knowledgeable professors I’ve had and also cares about the students deeply.

Histology: Dr. S (she gave some of the best reviews I’ve seen)

Biochem: Dr. A who was also dean of students and was an amazing professor as well (tho I didn’t like her randomly calling on people in class because i never knew anything until the weekend before the test :p), One Dr. G (the bug one, very laid back, down to earth and cared about the students) left completely and the other Dr. G (one of the nicest professors I’ve had) is in limited capacity.

Micro: Dr. D who's class was the first one here i was able to painlessly stay awake through and he effortlessly put everything into memorable clinical context

Genetics: Dr. A from biochem also taught genetics for which she was a good combo because a lot of the biochem diseases came up again, and she understood that genetics isn't one of the high yield subjects so she took it easy

Epidemiology: Dr. A's husband Dr. B who teaches epi on the side may be on the way out as well obviously since his wife is gone. I'll go into more detail in clin med

Pathology: Dr. J who is the one being persecuted for the curve, said he will likely leave if he is chewed out again. The best professor here with the best reviews I’ve seen hands down. 'nuff said

Clinical Medicine: Dr. B (Dr. A's husband) is probably the second best professor here in my opinion and will almost surely be leaving soon since his wife isn’t here anymore. He teaches every lecture twice, once without the ppt (more helpful because he keeps to the essential info) and once with (quickly goes through the essentials again and adds what he didn't go into). He is the man that coined the term "anti-student movement" on Saba earlier this semester

I firmly believe that if Dr. J leaves that others will follow because he is the most genuine, caring professor I’ve had and has very close relationships to many of the best remaining professors.

The reason that I am so up-in-arms about what is happening to the school is because even tho I had to go to a Caribbean school and will have to deal with the negative stigma associated with it I want to be proud of the school I went to. I want to be able to recommend this school to anyone who asks me "hey I’m applying to some foreign medical schools which one should i go to?" If things keep going the way they are i would never recommend this school to anyone except people who can't afford one of the other schools or perhaps Canadian students (the school has been having great success getting Canadian students back home after leaving here)

The school has been quickly moving up the ranks of Caribbean schools and is considered by many to be the second best in to Caribbean. Like I said in a previous post: If it ain't Broke, Stop trying to fix it.

well if that’s the case then saba students have achieved the "impossible". I personally know students that scored between 88-90 RAW on the path shelf just last semester. And which shelf are you referring to that has a pass of a 55, because the pass and average depends on the shelf.

High 80s is different from mid 90's. I said "almost impossible", not impossible (i personally know students also who've scored high 80s on some of the shelves, you know them too, but none in mid-90's). And also this is evidence supporting saad's post about our shelf scores not meaning much because if students here are getting 2-3 standard deviations above mean on shelves but then not getting the same results on USMLE then he's more correct than i thought (saad's grade was the highest out of his semester i believe and it was 1.5 std deviations over the mean according to first aid, this may be more exam dependent but i don’t know by how much). And the 55 i was referring to was the standardized pass on a shelf based on raw score (if i am wrong about this please let me know, i was under the impression that all shelves approximately had means of 70, std devs of 7-8 and a passing scores of 55).

[icesage]

JeebusLives is absolutely spot on. I don't give a damn about student IDs and all this irrelevant garbage that people are wasting space on but I do care about the way some of our best professors are being treated. I cannot believe what happened to Dr. J. yesterday. A truly genuine, caring, knowledgable professor that is being roasted for a 3 point curve that was given b/c of computer miskeys. I wish we did not get the curve now after what Dr. J had to go through. If this is a sign of things to come, and the way admin is going to operate, I am just happy that I am leaving the island soon. Personally, I am not going to recommend this school to anyone if things continue like this b/c all the good professors will leave (btw some have already left and some are leaving after this semester and next semester) if they are treated like this. Professors especially course coordinators should be given autonomy. In my opinion and that is all that it is (I might be wrong here but I do not think I am) another professor in Path wants to become the course coordinator and is trying his level best to discredit Dr. J and his fine work here at the school. Dr. J, if you are reading this, you have the support of most of the students that I have spoken to on campus.

[litt]

To everyone that is concerned with all the recent ** at SABA, I hear you. The moral and general sentiment at SABA has been on a downward trend for some time now, but I think it hit an all time low this week (anyone who is STILL AT THE SCHOOL knows what I am talking about). I encourage all of you to please take your concerns up to the Dean's Office. I know it seems pointless, as they’ve shown very little concern for the student body in general over the last little while. But still, we have to try. If enough of us make some noise, maybe they will hear us.

Thank you

[litt]

If anyone feels a little anxious about going to the Dean’s Office directly there is an anonymous comments section on the sabamed.org website. These comments go directly to the Dean. However, please understand that anonymous comments will carry a little less weight.

Thank you

[AZcopperJim]

The comments are not anonymous. You have to sign in before you can leave comments. The link is "anonymous" in name only. Stand by for the inevitable punitive expedition that is about to occur on Saba. I just hope the ranks of the BRG and the BNC feel the wrath with full fury...by the time they get to normal students, they'll be worn out. lolz:-devil

[Experienced]

Absolutely untrue. You don't sign in with your username but only with "comments" and password "comments". I'm told by Henry that it is absolutely anonymous and that no one can trace the commenter or where it is sent from.

[AZcopperJim]

:sparta:Well, as you know. I generally do not trust anyone. btw...porter rockwell kicks gluteal region

[KingMo]

Absolutely untrue. You don't sign in with your username but only with "comments" and password "comments". I'm told by Henry that it is absolutely anonymous and that no one can trace the commenter or where it is sent from.

I'll assume that you guys aren't knowledgeable about information technology forensics. But anybody who knows how to use Google effectively can learn how to trace an IP address and (now that the school has registered everyone's MAC address) your computer. I wouldn't take the word of the school that your privacy is being protected, esp given the context of this thread..."anonymous" comments are at your own risk.

[litt]

Wow – double checked and you’re right, there is no way that the school website is 100% privacy protected. There are ways around it but it’s probably not worth the trouble given the fact that anonymous messages don’t carry much weight to begin with. So cancel the option (lets not start an IT war). Instead, go up alone, go up in pairs, go up in groups, send your class reps ... anything, but do SOMETHING.

[icesage]

I'll assume that you guys aren't knowledgeable about information technology forensics. But anybody who knows how to use Google effectively can learn how to trace an IP address and (now that the school has registered everyone's MAC address) your computer. I wouldn't take the word of the school that your privacy is being protected, esp given the context of this thread..."anonymous" comments are at your own risk.


BIG BROTHER is always watching. If you think otherwise, you are simply naive.

[Experienced]

I agree completely with your premise, but in this case you are right at the borderline between a non-bizarre and a bizarre delusion ;).

Send your comments anonymously to the dean. At the 95+% confidence level, no one will trace your identity.

E.

-

[icesage]

I agree completely with your premise, but in this case you are right at the borderline between a non-bizarre and a bizarre delusion ;).

Send your comments anonymously to the dean. At the 95+% confidence level, no one will trace your identity.

E.

-

You are probably right. SABA does that to you, well atleast me, after a while :shock:. I am gonna seek help from either you or Dr. S.

[trex]

Well, at least I know that I'll be receiving a good medical education...

[ohthatmedic]

yup, word travels fast even outside of Saba...people off the island have heard about incident with Dr. J already!!!

like was posted earlier, go talk to Admin. The more people that go and voice their concerns the more something might be done about it. sure, Saba is a second chance for us all, but that doesn't we have to stand around and watch our school loose some of its best professors.

[HMD]

**************

[golfman]

Wow the nerve of the 3rd semester the smartest class according to themselves among themselves they are bunch of spoil young kids that has rich parents that is now dealing with reality of life and learning.
yes i agree this school can get tough but this is med school suppose to be tough this isn't AUC or STATIA if you want easy goto STATIA, AUC or the others i want a good reputation with good teachers as faculty. AUC allows you to fail 4 classes here just 2 if you wan to be babysat go there looser 3rd semester be a man and to the work . stop whining and for the first semester if they stop partying and picking a book and stop dividing among themselves they'll make it. The only problem here is that there is no loans.

I believe the main problem is your inability to properly communicate. This has to be a joke.

[AZcopperJim]

Wow the nerve of the 3rd semester the smartest class according to themselves among themselves they are bunch of spoil young kids that has rich parents that is now dealing with reality of life and learning.
yes i agree this school can get tough but this is med school suppose to be tough this isn't AUC or STATIA if you want easy goto STATIA, AUC or the others i want a good reputation with good teachers as faculty. AUC allows you to fail 4 classes here just 2 if you wan to be babysat go there looser 3rd semester be a man and to the work . stop whining and for the first semester if they stop partying and picking a book and stop dividing among themselves they'll make it. The only problem here is that there is no loans.

Would it be a tos violation if I were to make fun of the bad grammar and spelling?

[litt]

this thread may have started with a complaint in regards to a third semester test - but i'm pretty sure it has grown into something much bigger than that.

[JeebusLives]

Wow the nerve of the 3rd semester the smartest class according to themselves among themselves they are bunch of spoil young kids that has rich parents that is now dealing with reality of life and learning. yes i agree this school can get tough but this is med school suppose to be tough this isn't AUC or STATIA if you want easy goto STATIA, AUC or the others i want a good reputation with good teachers as faculty. AUC allows you to fail 4 classes here just 2 if you wan to be babysat go there looser 3rd semester be a man and to the work . stop whining and for the first semester if they stop partying and picking a book and stop dividing among themselves they'll make it. The only problem here is that there is no loans.

My previous volunteer work probably better equips me to interpret your incoherent thoughts.

First off I wouldn't rip on AUC because they are better known, have better clinical rotations, have better loan options, have a better campus on a better island and have American in the name itself (don't be unpatriotic). Also they had California certification way before we did.

Secondly I don't know if their faculty is worse than ours, especially considering that many of our best professors have left and with the recent disrespect of some of the best remainin professors, more may be on their way out.

Thirdly there is no reason to bring those student's financial status into the situation, especially with the loan situation how it is. Soon the school may only have students that can pay out of pocket. Tho i do hear there is a big development on the loan front which would be a huge relief.

[LMAOzedong]

************************

[darkmansaad]

please, will this thread die already

[stephew]

i was going to write pms to warn people to edit. but since there is just too much here, by people who should know better, this is your only warning before infractions are giving out. ANY TOS VIOLATIONS in this thread will be given infractions by the moderators later today. that is all the warning you get. not sure if your post is in violation? edit it. you are expected to know the tos you agreed to when you signed up.

[LMAOzedong]

please, will this thread die already

Vive la résistance!

[dbeckham7]

Sounds like you've been holding onto a lot of tension - it's incredible how much you know about the entire 3rd semester, though, from how much their parents make to how much they're complaining and what each individual thinks of his/herself. Well played. Very astute.
Probably a good idea to lay off the Saba Spice before posting.

[mamashi]

here is my 2 cents on this!!!

Yes we should not be blaming the school if the school is a good one!

When a self acclaimed SURGEON comes to lecture and every slide that he shows he has to double check and admit that he is WRONG! then there is something to be said about the school and some finger pointing needs to be done towards the administration that sees nothing and takes no criticism!!

I am in first semester and just had the worst exam of my LIFE! I went to the University of Toronto and This Histo exam was something to be talked about for many years!!! I thankfully passed but I saw every single question was directed to get the students to fail!!!

I have Dr. S on record saying that "this course is not pathology so don't worry about diseases" meanwhile A LOT of the questions were in fact on diseases! He has mentioned time and again that he is not going to put up a blurred picture and expect us to see things and what he has done was exactly that!!!

I was really shocked to see a professor who is indeed a qualified PhD. writing an exam as STUPID as the one I just wrote! That exam was not designed to test the knowledge of us who are here to become DOCTORS! that exam was intended to fail people and may be for those who want to secretly become HISTOLOGISTs!

I did great in Embyo (thanks to Dr. R) and I did Great in the Lab exam (Thanks to Dr. R). He did no favors!!! instead he THOUGHT the materials in a way MEDICINE needs to be taught!!!

I like the other profs on a personal level but when being WRONG is more often the case than being RIGHT! then there should be some changes!!!

[honest2beme]

Dear Students,
Please note, there will be a great deal of reaction towards what I am about to say. Keep in mind that the faculty at SABA have accounts on here and will pretend to be others when posting comments in defending their position with regards to MY EXPERIENCE here which seems to parallel most students here.
I regret to inform all students of thinking in applying to SABA or coming to SABA to strongly reconsider (Please DO NOT APPLY/ATTEND SABA ).
I am a first semester medical student attending SABA. I had much fear about coming to a Caribbean medical school vs. not going to medical school and decided to put my fears aside for SABA due to good PAST reputation.
My cousins came and graduated from here and are doing very well now in Canada and the States. Today, the school has a different policy with different goals in mind. First, it was NON-profit, now it is FOR profit and the issue stems from here and all the way to a power struggle amongst faculty on SABA. It has been my experience that this school ‘s primary goal is profit---NOT EDUCATION. One can have both profit and education, sadly SABA has decided to drop the latter with the newly created policies.
The strategy is admitting as many students as possible for tuition purposes (with little room in the ANATOMY lab), and failing out as much as possible because there are not enough clinical spots for rotations by the end of 5th semester. The current 5th semesters are already having to wait for a bit before starting clinical due to backed up/ few clinical rotations/ losing clinical spots from SABA (just lost a NY and Chicago clinical rotation check on it). The evidence is there… YOU as you consider SABA for an education, must try to find this out for yourself. The current situation will not be honestly addressed by Admin/ gardner or SABA ----You must research yourself, and my best advice as I did before coming here was talking to students that are HERE NOW.
The first semester class this past May started out with 90 students (the largest class SABA has ever admitted thus far) now it is down to around 60 in both classes (the highest drop rate in SABA history). The class has been wiped out/is being wiped out. How?
In Histology, exams have been made deliberately difficult by the course director and Academic dean. Dr. S pretends to be nice and caring towards students meanwhile he is aiding the school in weeding people out unjustly. The average histo exam score (this semester) on the past 3 histo exams have been in the 60’s. The pass rate at SABA is 75, meaning that more than half the class is failing. There are several students that are repeating histology from last semester with our class, and they have stated over and over again that Dr. S’s exams have been on a different level then previous semesters even last. After the third exam with an average in the 60’s one has to wonder what else can be done. Students have been going to TA reviews and his reviews and working hard as other can see. He is also the assistant dean of students, with tremendous influence on what occurs at this school and he is abusing his powers.
In anatomy, traditionally, there has been Dr. R, ask any student who has attended SABA about him (they have no reason to lie) and they will state how he taught them Anatomy on such a level that while taking the USMLE they can hear his voice telling them what is being asked and how to answer it. He spends time explaining concepts, although he might go over the “time limit” which I don’t mind while some students do, he explains the material in such a manner that you will never forget it because he understands it. Due to all the propaganda going on at this school, he refused to play as a puppet and has stepped down from course director only to leave it to another prof that uses an Atlas to Id structures in lab. The 2 profs left teaching anatomy, both are not anatomist, they cannot communicate the info to students, and in fact have taught various WRONG information to first semester students. One has been teaching a 5th sem class, after receiving terrible reviews he was “demoted” to teach anatomy. I feel cheated, I am not getting a solid foundation from the basic sciences thus far, and it seems as if the first semesters feel the same way. Many are taking steps of transferring/leaving to other schools for a better investment in time and education.
In speaking my cousins and upper semester students at SABA I have discovered who the best professors are due to majority opinion. All students tend to question around and find out who the best professors are for courses while in University or professional school. NOT THE EASIEST, but the BEST. Best being knowledgeable about the subject they are teaching and communicating the information to the students. Over and over again the following the same professor’s names kept coming up.
1. Dr. R- Anatomy- status- Stepped down—on the way out
2. Dr. A- genetics- Status- left SABA—one more semester and she is gone
3. Dr. S- Physiology – Status- Stepped down
4. Dr. K- Neuro—still here-- might be leaving soon?
5. Dr. B—Dr. A’s husband- Leaving after this semester
6. Dr. W- Micro- Still here—
7. Dr. D- Dean -hope that he would follow his heart soon and do the RIGHT thing
8. Dr. M- Pharm- Still here.
9. Dr. J- Pathology- STATUS- AS OF July 1, 2008 LEAVING SABA
All of these changes have happened this semester-drastic changes. There is a constant struggle between the prof’s that care/educated/interested in teaching students as much as possible vs. profs that are in solitude with the school’s new policy of making money and getting as many students out as possible after taking tuition. Two profs have been hired here last year (Dr. L –path Dr. W- immune) were fired from AUC for failing too many students and creating much trouble amongst faculty members. Dividing people amongst each other and creating “southern clicks.” SABA has hired the doe that they claim to have taught at Duke University Medical School. The evidence on the contrary shows that one worked in a lab at Duke and the other taught at a PA school, don’t take my word for it research it. All of this information would be irrelevant if one is getting a good education. It is hard enough to be a medical student but having to deal with lies and profs/administration power struggle/owners that are making money at your own expense is unfair. It is hard to focus amongst such drama. Due to change of focus on students to power and money, Dr. J decided to leave the school today after hitting a brick wall with the Dean in trying to help medical students (3 pt curve due to Dr. L mis-keyed exam). He was demoted in front of students today by the dean coincidently after the return of Dr. L to the island. The dean abruptly walked in and interrupted class and unprofessionally demoted Dr. J from course director to give it to Dr. L – the OTHER path prof (one of the inadequate profs (as per AUC students AND SABA students-- along with wife Dr. W-Immuno). Now, the director of PATH is Dr. L—one of the worst profs in this school along with Wife Dr. W…. Now much more people will be failing. After Dr. J decided to leave there was a student rally at SABA to show how people feel about their education and the good hard profs here willing to teach it to us. This school is headed down hill in every aspect and it is an insecure place filled with drama NOT EDUCATING FUTURE DOCTORS. I wish that I would have known about this before investing in my education at such a medical school. I will not be replying /reading any comment/reply/see any comment on here.
( I know that most will be by profs/admin/prof’s pretending to be students, students on SABA are fed up).
These are merely my experiences thus far and I intend on leaving SABA as soon as I can to go to another medical school. I don’t have a reason to post such a letter, if events were not taking place. I want to give the future students a heads-up with much concern in mind and state that SABA is not a good medical school, I would have never applied here based on the current reputation and I DO NOT recommend it to any student coming in. PLEASE think before coming to SABA look at other medical schools.
God bless and good luck.

[darkday]

Look... this is the reality of the school now.

It is not a school that cares about its students. Money is the bottom line. Survival of the fittest.

The saddest part is that admin thinks that their professors make their students better. But what they don't realize is that the smartest students don't need anybody. They would do just as well if you stick a monkey up there. The hard working profs are for the rest of us. The ones that need direction. For us to make that next step from just having knowledge to having understanding, we need professors that can guide us.

Our best professors have left or are leaving soon. Saba is nothing but a shell of the past. Their web page is circa 2005 but everything on it is wrong now. "caring empathetic staff", "loan programs", "low student:professor ratio", etc etc.

We've had to teach ourselves for the past year since the lazy new professors came (the orthopedic surgeon who doesn't even know how to use a stethoscope, the pulmonologist who had his medical license revoked for illegal activity and who sits in class and tells stories and doesn't teach anything "oh, you learned this in second semester, so I don't need to say anything about it", and the dookie professors who constantly relive their duke days and who spend more time writing PhD questions rather figuring out how to teach better.

One of the semesters that just left did spectacularly on the step (iceman's class). And I bet the admin and profs are beaming. But I knew many of those and they just played video games in class because there was nothing to learn from these new professors. In fact, I don't think that class had some of these new professors or they were just new, and therefore were easier then because you don't want to make new waves when you just started.

The sad part is that these new professors think too much about themselves. Just at the mere mention that some people may be cheating, they make the tests even worse for the rest of us. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that some unscrupulous students made these comments to the profs in order to get a harder test to separate the strong from the weak (knowing some of the students here). There's so much politics going around. It's hard to sort out who is leading this change in the school.

And the new professors/admin don't roam these pages to understand the students. They think we're all crooks. They don't look at the constructive criticism. They don't take it upon themselves, that hey, I'm not getting my message across, I have to think of a new way to teach. I'm a professor. I have the precious duty of preparing students to become professional physicians. To take care of the ill.

It's not their responsibility to weed out the weak. The system and the Step will take care of that. Their responsibility is to prepare us to the best that they can. The professors shouldn't cater to only the smartest ones because they already teach themselves. Rather, you teach the rest of us. They can't take away our dream of becoming a doctor and helping people.

You don't just say, hey, it's a war zone out there. I'll teach you by throwing you in a room with guns, you figure out what to do and the strongest will make it. No! You say, here is how you approach this situation, this is why this works the way it does, this is how you perform this maneuver, etc etc. And once the student is ready, it's that person's responsibility to make the final step.

When a wonderful professor (who was pushed out, by the way) expresses frustration about where all this anti-student mentality is coming from, you know the school is in trouble.

So my advise, continue studying on your own and get off the island ASAP. We don't have anyone but each other. Admin and profs don't care. They put the least caring people in charge of student affairs! This is my biggest lesson learned from SUSOM. All SUSOM provides is an opportunity, you have to do everything yourself, including teaching yourself.

I'm sure SUSOM's profs and admin are going to find some way to get back at me or all of us. If they're that spiteful, so be it. I would hope they listen and say, hey, I have to work my **** off.

Finish the step, get a great score, and put it in their faces that hey, I did this totally on my own.

[icesage]

honest2beme and darkday, both of you have truly and masterfully told the story here. I cannot add anymore to what both of you have said and feel absolutely powerless against the might of admin. Today is a bleak day in the history of SABA.

[maserati]

WO.

NOTHING IS GOING RIGHT!

Current students are roaring about the academic / faculty situation on the island.

Prospective students are roaring cause the school has promised us an answer for loans " in a couple more weeks " but it has been more than a few months. It is evident that they pressured a whole bunch of students to go into May class for financial reasons.


Those who are going are not happy. Those who are already there are not happy.

[anjaligirl]

I am in a kind of shock over what has been going on in this school lately. I want things to be the way they were. With profs that care and want to teach you. Not ones who are too busy to set up anatomy questions and can't recognize the wrong answer when they see it.

I have to say that the first semesters have been working very hard to try and pass histo. This is not a lazy class. If they did badly on the first exam I can understand. But to be constantly failed for 3 blocks shows how bad the teaching is and has nothing to do with the students. Some of theses guys went through a lot a difficulties to try and get to medical school and for this school to be so callous as to take their money and to fail them out...its unimaginable but its also the truth. I hope things change soon or a lot of us are going to be walking out of this school for good.

[covarubious]

yeah, the more I read the more disapointed I become! I'm getting closr and closer to saying screw it and find a school in the states I can afford...

WO.

NOTHING IS GOING RIGHT!

Current students are roaring about the academic / faculty situation on the island.

Prospective students are roaring cause the school has promised us an answer for loans " in a couple more weeks " but it has been more than a few months. It is evident that they pressured a whole bunch of students to go into May class for financial reasons.


Those who are going are not happy. Those who are already there are not happy.

[gumby]

yeah, the more I read the more disapointed I become! I'm getting closr and closer to saying screw it and find a school in the states I can afford...

I know you and I don't quite see eye to eye on most things, but all that aside, you really should try to go somewhere in the US. No loans and lousy admin.

[covarubious]

after everything i have read here and heard from my friends on the island lousy admin is an obscene understatment! its soo disapointing... I know Ross is not for me and AUC sounds great but not sure how I could aford it. If I am going to pay that much I might as well pay for an american school even though it will mean doing mcat and finnishing my degree...

I know you and I don't quite see eye to eye on most things, but all that aside, you really should try to go somewhere in the US. No loans and lousy admin.

[maserati]

after everything i have read here and heard from my friends on the island lousy admin is an obscene understatment! its soo disapointing... I know Ross is not for me and AUC sounds great but not sure how I could aford it. If I am going to pay that much I might as well pay for an american school even though it will mean doing mcat and finnishing my degree...



getting into us schools = super tough.

[icesage]

yeah, the more I read the more disapointed I become! I'm getting closr and closer to saying screw it and find a school in the states I can afford...

You would be well advised and smart to cut your losses. You are one of the lucky ones who is not here to witness the turmoil first hand and therefore can get out without too much financial and time wastage. Good luck to you. A US Medical School is way better than this place.

[gridlock]

It is truly a dire state that has SABA has found itself in. I am glad that people are stating their concerns and their disappointment clearly.

For those that are planning to start their education at SABA, i'd highly discourage from doing so. Your education and future will be at Peril.

I am one of the upper semesters and I am truly disappointed to see how things have turned out today and i'm becoming progressively fearful each day about my future. I wish the administration and faculty would pay a little attention to the student's needs and concerns , rather than turning a blind eye.

It is only a matter of time before all of these unruly incidents go back to Gardiner and/or worse - the licensing committees of various states and SABA's licensure and image in medicine can be ruined.

I hope that day doesnt come and things are resolved before they digress any further.

God be with all of us.

[gridlock]

1. A school atmosphere illfitting for any medical student to study under - Students are not being listened to, their grievances (academic and personal) are being neglected and all their concerns fall on deaf ears

2. Influx of poor quality professors and efflux of really really good professors - The professors that can move you towards the 99 on the step I are leaving. There are few that remain behind to help but the good ones are gone.

3. Absence of Faculty Transparency? I dont know who the owner is of the school (equinox.. who owns equinox?). How is a new faculty member hired? What role does student feedback play into all this? Please treat us like adults and do not discredit our knowledge by simply denying it.

[cant polish a turd]

i took away the original post

[darkday]

If you're an American, AUC and Ross are totally viable options. They qualify for federal loans! That's something Saba will never have. Saba will always depend on private loans. You won't have the loan mess and you won't have a dysfunctional administration that promotes the worst professors. I'm sure the other schools have their own problems (there's no such thing as a perfect school), but jumping into a possible fire is much better than stewing in a boiling pot.

A few of us in the upper semesters, we won't start over. We've gone too far but a number of us are going to transfer once we finish the Step.

[cant polish a turd]

post removed due to frontal lobe override of the rage center in my brain

[cant polish a turd]

whatever.........

[cant polish a turd]

Um, pardon my drunken rage posts tonight.

[maserati]

I can't believe they took on so many students 90+ per semester knowing full well that they don't have the facility / enough cadavers for anatomy nor clinical sites. Obviously, they're getting us to go there, dump $$$ into their pockets then fail us out after first semester.



WE SHOULD ALL WRITE EMAILS TO SABA AND DEMAND CHANGE.

[darkday]

THIS IS PURE CONJECTURE SO DON'T TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY.

But from what I heard, they're moving semesters 2 and 3 to the new building since the new auditoriums are almost done. The new building already has semester 4 and 5. That leaves the old building (since it used to handle semester 1-5) totally capable of handling close to 300 students for a first semester. I doubt they would seriously try to have that many students for a first semester. It could possibly be a class of 200 split across 4 rooms (meaning now you have 4 sets of profs teaching).

And it's totally reasonable to expect that a class of 200 can be whittled down to 140 by 5th semester (144 is the seating capacity of the 5th semester class).

So I can totally imagine the school having 500 students at any given time. I think if they solve the loans and housing issues, 600 could fit between the two buildings.

[psychMajor]

Just a friendly reminder...

I know we are all not happy with the current events of the school. But don't forget why we all came here. We all came from far places for a common goal of becoming a good doctor.

Please be cautious of things you say on the public internet which can be read by anyone. As students reputation of our school is very important. We can handle this as students without public need.

I hope we can as students bring back Saba soon -- I am confident of Saba students.

Wish you all the best in your studies.

pM.

[JLea]

I can't believe they took on so many students 90+ per semester knowing full well that they don't have the facility / enough cadavers for anatomy nor clinical sites. Obviously, they're getting us to go there, dump $$$ into their pockets then fail us out after first semester.



WE SHOULD ALL WRITE EMAILS TO SABA AND DEMAND CHANGE.

Dude, from what has been written here today, with students meeting with the administration and nothing happening, how can you think that e-mails to Gardner will make a difference?

[maserati]

THIS SOUNDS LIKE IT"S SOMETHING WRITTEN BY A SABA ADMIN.


...

I called my first semester friends and they confirmed EVERYTHING and told me ridiculous stories about the poor quality of teaching / facility.

[GQ-Loud]

it all goes down to what I said earlier, those 2 professors from AUC are a big problem.
They definitely are the reason of today's incident at the administration with all those students.


Action please, Action

[maserati]

I just called my first semester friends and they confirmed EVERYTHING and told me ridiculous stories about the poor quality of teaching / facility.

[darkday]

I think letters to Gardner is the only hope. You can't complain to the island admin. They'll just chalk it up to discontent students and file it in a drawer.

But Gardner only cares about money. If there's student discontent, there's the possibility of lost money. That's our only hope.

Now you can say, if you have a leaky bottle, just fill it up faster with new students, but eventually, you peter out...

[cant polish a turd]

whatever ........

[maserati]

Just a friendly reminder...

I know we are all not happy with the current events of the school. But don't forget why we all came here. We all came from far places for a common goal of becoming a good doctor.

Please be cautious of things you say on the public internet which can be read by anyone. As students reputation of our school is very important. We can handle this as students without public need.

I hope we can as students bring back Saba soon -- I am confident of Saba students.

Wish you all the best in