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View Full Version : A few points to consider when going to a Russian Med School


bpoichan
06-08-2008, 02:37 PM
I have been an 'on and off' member of this forum.. and anyone of you will see how I have contributed to this forum with my past threads from last year..and this year too!

I have been busy for the past year (USMLE and Position at a US Hospital!! ) and could not post much to the joy of some and hopefully to the sadness of others..;)

Now that I am done with med school in Russia, I had time to analyze, compare the type of education that I got there. I would like to share my thoughts and hopefully help those among you that are considering Russia for med school.

Before I do that, let me tell you about myself (within limits of privacy of course!:cool:)

I was a student at the MMA for 3 years and after multitude of tribulations I decided to transfer to PFU.. or PFUR for some, where I obtained my medical degree.

I ll give you my general thoughts and tell you my experience at both MMA and PFU..
I first want to warn you that this message will be a long one..so please forgive my typoes...

When considering a Russian medical school, you need to understand that wherever you may be from, you ll be looked down as a low quality doctor if not among the lowest.
For some reason people do not respect Russian made doctors.
That is a fact that you need to be aware of, as it will follow you for the rest of your life.

Do not believe those that will tell you that 'this school is the best in Russia'.. because that will not be true... whether it be MMA, RSMU or even PFU!...none of them are the best..
Actually the best med schools in Russia are off-limits to foreigners, so simply forget about it. And those schools are the St Petersburg medical military academy as well as the OMSK ( or TOMSK, I am not sure anymore )medical military Academy.

Now, you may think that I am contradicting myself from my previous posts(for those that may have read them) when I claimed that PFU was the best... well not really, because I meant to say that PFU is the best for YOU as a FOREIGN student in Russia.

If you decide to complete your medical education in Russia, then you need to understand that you ll be behind other people from other medical schools in Europe, US and other places.
This should be a given fact to start with and you must digest it now.
You therefore will be starting your medical career after Russia, not with a few steps behind compared to others but MILES behind.
By the way, when i say Russian med schools, allow me to include all ex-soviet block med schools (kazakhstan, uzbekstan, ukraine, belarussia etc..)
Why is that so?
For one, the image that Russian med schools portray abroad, is not a positive one at all.
In all honesty, the quality of education is less.. sorry.. WAY less than our counterparts from other non-Russian med schools, especially the english medium students.


The 'handicap' that you ll be bearing with you must be palliated in some way. And actually one can turn this Russian Education into an advantage if you know how to go about it. let me elaborate;

Some may think that we ll just study more so that we'll be up to par with our counterparts from non-russian med schools..
SORRY but,... UP TO PAR wont be enough!!! you ll need to be better... if possible WAY BETTER than your counterparts!! because of the ' russian med school' brand on your forehead.. you ll have to be WAY WAY better than them..
and unfortunately,, you ll have to do that to bring up the reputation of Russian Med schools that has been tarnished by those that go there, do not study and get their Medical degree anyway..


let me tell you how:


I was supposed to be at the VERY best of the med schools in RUSSIA ----> MMA...
My view is:
The theoretical education was extremely weak in absolutely ALL aspects. While at MMA, I always compared what we did with my friends in the US, England and France.. I soon realized that I was in Kindergarten compared to them.
Now, some people can jump in and try to attack this argument and that is fine. But the reality of things, is that the theoretical part is POORLY taught at MMA. Those attending med school now could not know as they only know the school that they attend.. I know for the simple fact that most my friends were in med school at the same time I was in, and we liked to keep in touch on a very regular basis to see what we have been doing..

Anyway, I do not need to prove it, I am not trying to prove anything but that this should be an accepted fact; and the poor performance of Russian med graduates in their home countries is the proof that speaks the loudest.

So we could bring recomfort to oneself and promise to study MORE than what will be taught.. ' I ll read the whole book even if we just cover half of it'...:rolleyes:

However it is human nature to say that.. but once in there..you need to understand that as foreign students you ll be ' privileged' as you are the one bringing the bread and butter to the teachers..(not to the schools...your money will mainly go to the agent and dean's pocket where some will be redistributed to the teachers..NONE of your money will go to rebuild the school.. unless you own the school..)

every year those teachers get evaluated and if students are happy with their teachers, they ll be allowed to teach the foreign students of the following year...therefore, to make sure to get positive evaluations, they teach only superficially, give excellent marks to most students.. and praise them with good words. This is not coming from my head but from OLGA Sementiova..or something like that.. she is the secretary of english medium at MMA..she told me that on a very personal basis.. I was sitting on my butt when I heard it..anyway this is not fabrication..

In such environment, where you ll feel like you are the next Einstein of medicine, and you ll be believing that you are performing so well..would you really want to 'read more'?... be honest with yourself..:roll:

that is how it is working at MMA, here are some instances: the pathology department has a supposedly famous teacher.. Dr Kogan if I remember her name. While at MMA, I thought how thoroughly I was taught til I realized how superficial the information that I received was. Other example, The physiology course, I remember covering renal physiology in 1 hour.. this is taught in a span of 3 weeks in europe.. these are simple examples that you can generalize to other courses..

What do you need to learn from this?
well that YOU LL NEED TO READ A LOT MORE THAN WHAT WILL BE FED TO YOU... A LOT MORE!!! you ll have to learn material that was skipped (a lot of topics will be mysteriously skipped):confused:... and learn the material that was never taught..


OK?

If you think that you can do that .. then go on reading.. if not.. then.. click to another forum of another country!


Assuming that you will be studying the theoretical part by yourself..and find the time (which is really hard!!!) to do that.. then you ll be considered not up to par to the other med students but almost..just a few yards behind..

What can you do now to make you up to par.. or rather WAY better than them??

:shock: CLINICAL PRACTICE :shock: ....that is the key to make you not only up to par but WAY BETTER than your non-russian counterparts.
Clinical Practice is the main thing that can demarcate you from the non-Russian med students..HOW?
for 2 reasons:
1- Non-Russian med students study in countries where there are Malpractice laws..therefore limiting medical students and even PGs to touch patients..The patients have rights and refuse to be touched or even examined by a student or PG..
So they mainly observe..

2- Russia, you ll soon realize is very lax on its laws.. medical care is free..and honestly patients (though some my protest) have no rights.. just take it and shut up in short.. That is sad..but from a medical student's perspective that is a great opportunity..as you can litterally do a lot of things that would be unthinkable in non-russian med schools...once anesthesized the patient wont know who is doing what..and trust me.. i have done lots of things in the OR...


Now please dont fool yourselves... realize that this clinical practice will be imparted from your free time off classes.. meaning in the afternoon.. at night.. maybe during night shifts til the next morning.. That is the type of sacrifice you must be willing to make!..are you?? and remember that you ll have to be reading too!!

Moscow's winter generally starts from late october and drags on til April~May.. snowy, cold. VERY COLD...and also if you are a colored-skinned person then you are adding the danger factor to yourself... DO NOT neglect that extra fact as it will limit your movements in Moscow. Therefore it is very very easy to be lazy.. especially when you see your classmates litterally rushing back to their hidding spot which is their dormitory.. would you want to stay alone ? or in the warm comfort of your room.. get dressed to go for a clinical practice at a hospital that is over one hour by subway in a sub temperature of - 10 C at least?:bored:

How does one get the clinical practice.. well it should be superimposed on the theoretical knowledge that you should have accumulated with your extra hard readings...

and also .. you must find a doctor.. that is willing to let you stay there and help out.. and do stuff...

There is a difference between OBSERVING and DOING.... please remember that!..

At MMA, we did LOTS of OBSERVING... I have repeatedly asked.. begged.. offered presents.. even proposed to pay.. so that I could stay and learn some clinical maneuvers... but I was all the time turned down. Some said that I could go.. and when I went there, I was yelled at by some crazy fat nurse and told to leave..
well.. for the BEST med school in Russia.. I realized that even among the Russian regular medical staff, only a selected few were allowed to do things (operations, seeing patients), while the other doctors were there to write the histories and be the secretaries of those selected few...they mainly sat in the 'ordinatuskaya' (staff room) drinking tea all day.. and sometimes walked along the hallways with their white coats to remind themselves that they were still doctors..
THIS IS AMONG RUSSIAN people themselves..Do not think that Doctors are a group of civilized people... there are lots of back stabbing.. and those doctors that have some knowledge would never share it for nothing in the world..

so
imagine yourself in there.. that foreign student from india, malaysia or africa.. standing out, not speaking well enough Russian...do you think that someone will open the door to you and say ' HELLO! WE WERE WAITING FOR YOU!! please come in and we ' ll teach you everything!!':D

if you do .. please wake up and go get a life!

I dont want to bring your expectation down..but simply depict the real picture for those that are as motivated as I was..!!
some people presently at MMA may rebutt this by denying it.. but then.. that person will also be correct.. because that person will be satisfied with what will be taught to him/her...will be satisfied to run back to the dorm and not look for extra curricular activities... that is true.. but the REAL truth will hit them once they return home..

This post is for those that have already assimilated the truth and are willing to do something about it rather than those that have accepted their fate.

Therefore, in your selection for a medical school, you need to find a place where you will have access to actual medical practice.. dont be fooled by the promise of some profs..

My personal experience is that MMA is a terrible place for hands-on experience.. as a foreign student, you ll be given very little if not any practice. I have fought 3 years to find a place where I could learn something.. and no one opened their doors to me..
let me tell you how I did.. I asked my profs..all of them..and they told me NO.. that they were busy.. that i still did not know enough to do it and should wait til 5th year.. but then what about nursing care? injections.. cleaning and changing wounds? dressing wounds?.... listening to some breathing sounds.. heart sounds? do i need to wait til 5th year for that? of course not!

so i took it upon myself and decided to first learn 2 things.. wound dressing and how to examine a patient.. so I had to find something in surgery and Internal medicine.. OH boy what a ride!.. at MMA..they turned me down flat! .. so i went to the chief of department..(cause i dont take no for an answer too easily..and only the chief of department makes the final decision.. )..but the response was the same and was even told not to come and bother again as they were busy...
this is what happened to me.. plain and honest truth.

so yes.. when you look at the website.. and all the lies that the agent of MMA/RSMU has written .. like those schools are among the best in the world.. or that they are WHO rated number one.. or so.. (btw WHO does not have a rating system..it only lists world med schools) then you may believe that it is the best place..

it may be the best place.. but for those selected few that are the few russian doctors there.. and trust me you will not be among them.
Upon my 3rd year.. I realized that I had to stop this ' mental masturbation' of believing that MMA was the best place.. because it was not ..and will not be for you either..
unless you get pleasure by watching others working and you simply imagining yourself doing it..


I am not a watcher but rather a doer..
so I took a look at PFU...I was really amazed at how the people were friendly.. It was like foreign students have a voice and can be listened at PFU.. trust me at MMA.. foreign students are just undergoing things and have to take it and no talking back..

I was told about the affiliated clinics and hospitals at PFU and went there to take a look for myself..
I first went to hospital no31..and walked in the orthopedics department.. i met a guy in a white coat and pretended to be a student at PFU and told him that I was interested in helping out..even nursing care to start with.. he told me ' yes sure.. you can go to the 7th floor on the operating floor to watch some surgeries..and help out in the wound dressing'.. I was WOW!!!!!!!!!! I am dreaming or what.. ????:D

little did I know that, this guy with the white coat was the chief of department of orthopedics/traumatology at PFU!! my first trial and first hit!!
I then thought... well that was a lucky hit.. i ll go to the department of Internal medicine and see how they ll respond..and was welcome with the same enthusiasm.. rather with some surprise..because they were not used to seeing a student wanting to stay and do extra!!
I was told to go to the Cardiology ICU.. as they had 30 beds with different types of heart sounds.. which would be great practice.. .. I was shocked and could not believe it how easy it was at PFU to get all this!


that day my choice was crystal clear.. i kissed bye bye to MMA..and let those best of the best dream in their fantasy land..and joined PFU... I do not regret it a bit.. i just wish i could have gone there from the 1st year....so that I could have started all this practice a lot earlier.

Let me add one last thing, the extra curricular practice that I was doing was on my own initiative. In my class, I was the ONLY one doing it.. and obviously other russian students did not do it.. I met only another couple russian students doing that ..
although many of my ex classmates told me that they d like to come with me some day.. in all the years in PFU.. none came with me.. they always had to find some excuse or were simply too lazy..


So having a will is one thing...but you ll need a lot more than that...to achieve your goal..


I do not pretend to be way way better than other doctors..but by now being in the US, I am able to readjust myself and see how well the clinical practice has helped me..and I am soo thankful for it... though it was tough at times..
It helped me gain the respect of my fellows here and am glad about it.. as I see how they tend to discriminate against IMGs in the USA.

If you decide to go along this path, you need to mentally and physically prepare yourself for all the barriers and negative temptations.. your classmates may ask you .. why are you going there? it is useles...dont expect support from anyone ..
do not expect people to give something to do the first day you arrive at the clinic for your night shift.. they ll check you ..see if you are serious about the shifts....and once you have created some kind of rapport with them.. they ll start giving you lots of interesting work to do...

My final thought is that I do strongly think that PFU is the BEST place for those that have a real motivation.. a motivation that goes beyond the poor curriculum that will be given to you....PFU teachers are no better than those at MMA..some are lousy and some ok.. but the advantages at PFU are that
The teaching staff will try and help you.. and teach.. and let you learn more if you want..
you ll have the doors open at the clinics/hospitals and people will be happy to help you out to become a real doctor..
THIS IS THE BIG PLUS THAT PFU HAS TO OFFER
and those other places dont.
That will make the difference between a 'poor quality russian-made doctor'..and a 'way way way better russian-made doctor'....THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

if you are not among those people..if you are happy with the nice grades you get with the little knowledge you get.. then any school would do..

If you have any comments, questions or further advice to provide please feel free to post a reply.

GOOD LUCK

jeniw13
07-08-2008, 04:12 PM
Hi there once again,
well, that message was epic but i made it to the end and have to day that i COMPLETELY AGREE.
I am still in the process of applying/deciding where to study medicine. I have aplac ein thew UK but electively want to go to russia (i am visiting moscow atm) for the clinical side of things.
I fell i am like yourself- i became involved-actually involved- in hospital procedures when i was 13 and continued throughout all my studies- i am very dedicated. I was rejected from uk med school last year and so during my year out I have spent 3 months in india DOING medicine- i tell you I have assisted in theatre and delivered babies- these thing do not often ahppen to a pre med student huh?

That is a slight touch on all of the practice I feel i have already gained and this is why I want to stud yin russia. I think that having to be self motivated will spur me on further and that fact that opportunities as you have suggested are out there makes me really optimisitic and sure this is the right thing to do.

I do not know if you are a native russian speaker or did you study in english. I would be planning to study in english as I dont think my russian is good enough.

How is practice now and how did you get on in transferring yor qualifications to the US?

Ithink we are 2 of a kind and would be really interested to hear from you. pls send me an email or reply whatever is easier.

look forward to hearing from you!

blossom831
08-27-2008, 11:23 AM
Hi, i am an 18 year old girl from malaysia hoping to further my studies in medicine. However i haven't make decisions on which school i will be going. does PFU stands for Peoples' friendship University which is in moscow? It is really expensive for me to do medicine in countries like the US, UK, Australia. I found out about Russian MEd uni this year hoping that i too would get a medical degree from a recognised uni. The agent that i've met had suggested MMA telling me loads of good stuff from the Uni. After reading form your post, i am really confused and i believe the agents are telling me heaps of lie. anyway, i was making plans on going to RUssian state medical University after recommendation from people i've known there hoping it will be better than MMA. Since you've been to both, i could realy thank you if you could provide me some information especially on the oppurtunity of work after obtaining a medical degree in PFU. Do you know the tuition fees structure in PFU? i hope to hear from you soon. i would really hope for some advises from you as i believe you know way better than the agents i've met. Thanks a lot. Take Care & God Bless.

Regards,
Blossom831 :)

bpoichan
08-29-2008, 05:02 PM
HI there.. I am glad to see your interest in Russian med schools. The first you need to do is the following:
- NEVER EVER BELIEVE WHAT ANY AGENT MAY TELL YOU!..NO MATTER HOW SOFT OR WELL-SPOKEN THEY MAY APPEAR...they are going to sing all the songs you want to hear just to get your money.

There are 2 possibilities for you..
1-as a malaysian student.. there are governmental scholarships for the MMA and RSMU. ..forget RSMU.. and go to MMA. no more to say about it..
2-if you are self-financing your studies.. go to PFU (people' friendship). You ll get to learn and DO more than your counterparts at MMA.

avoid ALL schools that are out of moscow.
dont listen to those stories.. trust me.. Moscow is 200 years ahead from any provincial city in Russia ( I am exaggerating a little but you get my point) and so are the schools.

good luck to you

magaboo
08-31-2008, 02:34 AM
dear blossom831,
whichever uni you may choose in russia, just make sure you choose the ones recognised by JPA and MMC. If not, it would be useless when you get back to malaysia after your degree(unless you consider migrating). if im nt mistaken, the recognised ones are only mma, rsmu, ksmu, volgograd & nizhny novgorod

Julia V.
09-03-2008, 01:12 AM
Hi

Thanks so much for this invaluable information!!! You have no idea how helpful it is for others!

I thought that you are the right person to ask for an advice: I am trying to decide where to continue to study: I have completed my basic sciences at AUA (caribbean medschool) and have done one semester of clinical rotations in US.

My family is in Moscow, and I want to be closer to them while continuing studying in medschool. So I was thinking of trying to do the rest of my clinical rotations in Moscow, and then come back to US to take steps,, etc.

I understand that I'll be lacking US based clinical experience, and that is what they look at when consider applicants for residency. But I've also read about doing a 3-6 months rotations in US hospitals to fullfill that requirement.

I am trying to make the right decision. Please help.

Julia.

lume
09-06-2008, 05:15 AM
HI there.. I am glad to see your interest in Russian med schools. The first you need to do is the following:
- NEVER EVER BELIEVE WHAT ANY AGENT MAY TELL YOU!..NO MATTER HOW SOFT OR WELL-SPOKEN THEY MAY APPEAR...they are going to sing all the songs you want to hear just to get your money.

There are 2 possibilities for you..
1-as a malaysian student.. there are governmental scholarships for the MMA and RSMU. ..forget RSMU.. and go to MMA. no more to say about it..
2-if you are self-financing your studies.. go to PFU (people' friendship). You ll get to learn and DO more than your counterparts at MMA.

avoid ALL schools that are out of moscow.
dont listen to those stories.. trust me.. Moscow is 200 years ahead from any provincial city in Russia ( I am exaggerating a little but you get my point) and so are the schools.

good luck to you


Hi, thank you for the valuable information you have given!!
I am from Finland, studying currently for the IB diploma in Helsinki (its like A levels in Britain if you havent heard of it) and I have been already few years thinking about Russian med schools. Before starting the IB, I lived for 3.5 years in St.petersburg, so I know what Russia is like.

I know that you dont have personal experience in the St Petersburg medical military academy but what do you think does it beat the PFU??
(i know Russian so it might be possible that I could study there... though dont they have also the english section for foreigns?)

Would love to hear you opinion on the st.pete med school...

Mana_f01
09-06-2008, 11:30 PM
Hi every1,help me find the best medical university in russia

chygada
09-08-2008, 09:30 AM
St Petersburg medical military academy - I believe only for Russian citizens

Soon
09-29-2008, 10:33 PM
St Petersburg football club nearby? Arshavin playing there..sorry for the out of topic comment..