Ontario proposes changes to get foreign doctors working sooner

[Big Baller]

TORONTO — The Ontario government announced Friday on that it plans to lift restrictions on foreign-trained doctors and to fast-track applications to help them start practising as soon as they enter Canada. The move is designed to reduce the province's critical shortage of physicians and is part of a plan that Health Minister George Smitherman said will make Ontario the country's leader in integrating foreign-trained doctors.
But critics said the push to bring more foreign doctors to Canada won't help physicians who already live here and are stuck doing odd jobs. One medical association also criticized the changes as a flawed and potentially immoral approach.
“I think we have to seriously look at the ethics,” said Karl Stobbe, president of the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada. “We lure them over here and a lot of times the countries we're taking them from … have a bigger problem than we have and we're actually making their problem worse.”
Under the proposed changes, doctors licensed in the United States and Commonwealth countries, as well as the other provinces, would be eligible to begin practising in Ontario without having to go through onerous assessments and evaluation periods. That would bring Ontario in line with other provinces, such as Alberta and British Columbia, which already have programs to tap into the talented pool of foreign doctors whose training is equivalent to Canadian requirements.
The province will also create a new “transitional licence” that would eliminate the need for foreign-trained physicians to wait years before being allowed to practise. The changes would let foreign specialists whose credentials differ substantially from Canadian requirements practise in a supervised setting. The transitional licence would last between two and five years, during which the doctors would be responsible for undergoing training to meet Canadian requirements.
“This is a total change in the way we do things,” said Laurel Broten, parliamentary assistant to the Health Minister and author of the government's new report on reducing barriers to foreign doctors.
The government also intends to improve its ability to quickly assess internationally trained doctors in order to determine what type of training or language education they would need to work in Canada.
Mr. Smitherman said it's impossible to say how many new doctors this program could generate because it focuses on streamlining the registration process for foreign-trained physicians, not adding spots for medical residents.
“It's not about simply creating more residency positions,” Mr. Smitherman said. “This is about transitioning those specialists into opportunities without having to go through residency, and they would be supervised by existing physicians in those environments.”
Although the changes may offer some help to doctors who want to move to Canada, Conservative health critic Elizabeth Witmer criticized the government for failing to create more residency positions to help foreign-trained doctors who already live in Canada and are stuck in dead-end jobs.

[covarubious]

YEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! Thanks BB! Nice to see good rumors coming true! About time too. Now can we just get a few dates and if they tell us exactly when this is going to happen... Karl Stobbe, bite me lol. If hes talking about British doctors leaving doctor poor England hes wronge. They have an overage. Besdies, if a doctor wants to leave an area its not up to us to make them stay. We have our own people to think about here and we have far to few family doctors in Ontario. Not usually a fan of conservatives but Elizabeth Witmer does have a point... Either way, another reason to not go to Saba falling away. Now, if we could just get more clinical experience...

TORONTO — The Ontario government announced Friday on that it plans to lift restrictions on foreign-trained doctors and to fast-track applications to help them start practising as soon as they enter Canada. The move is designed to reduce the province's critical shortage of physicians and is part of a plan that Health Minister George Smitherman said will make Ontario the country's leader in integrating foreign-trained doctors.
But critics said the push to bring more foreign doctors to Canada won't help physicians who already live here and are stuck doing odd jobs. One medical association also criticized the changes as a flawed and potentially immoral approach.
“I think we have to seriously look at the ethics,” said Karl Stobbe, president of the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada. “We lure them over here and a lot of times the countries we're taking them from … have a bigger problem than we have and we're actually making their problem worse.”
Under the proposed changes, doctors licensed in the United States and Commonwealth countries, as well as the other provinces, would be eligible to begin practising in Ontario without having to go through onerous assessments and evaluation periods. That would bring Ontario in line with other provinces, such as Alberta and British Columbia, which already have programs to tap into the talented pool of foreign doctors whose training is equivalent to Canadian requirements.
The province will also create a new “transitional licence” that would eliminate the need for foreign-trained physicians to wait years before being allowed to practise. The changes would let foreign specialists whose credentials differ substantially from Canadian requirements practise in a supervised setting. The transitional licence would last between two and five years, during which the doctors would be responsible for undergoing training to meet Canadian requirements.
“This is a total change in the way we do things,” said Laurel Broten, parliamentary assistant to the Health Minister and author of the government's new report on reducing barriers to foreign doctors.
The government also intends to improve its ability to quickly assess internationally trained doctors in order to determine what type of training or language education they would need to work in Canada.
Mr. Smitherman said it's impossible to say how many new doctors this program could generate because it focuses on streamlining the registration process for foreign-trained physicians, not adding spots for medical residents.
“It's not about simply creating more residency positions,” Mr. Smitherman said. “This is about transitioning those specialists into opportunities without having to go through residency, and they would be supervised by existing physicians in those environments.”
Although the changes may offer some help to doctors who want to move to Canada, Conservative health critic Elizabeth Witmer criticized the government for failing to create more residency positions to help foreign-trained doctors who already live in Canada and are stuck in dead-end jobs.

[DoctorORG]

So the preference is over docs from US or commonwealth countries. What if we graduate from Saba and do our clinicals and residency in US? Would we be considered as a carribean doctor who has to go through repeated residency in Ontario? or we would be considered as a US doc with smooth transition back to Ontario?

[covarubious]

I’m pretty sure since we will have the usmle that we will be treated like an American doc since we would have been educated to their standard (hopefully) and written their exams. Either way, we should still have an easier transition since we are Canadian and don't have the language issue... anybody else interpret differently?

So the preference is over docs from US or commonwealth countries. What if we graduate from Saba and do our clinicals and residency in US? Would we be considered as a carribean doctor who has to go through repeated residency in Ontario? or we would be considered as a US doc with smooth transition back to Ontario?

[Mike77]

I’m pretty sure since we will have the usmle that we will be treated like an American doc since we would have been educated to their standard (hopefully) and written their exams. Either way, we should still have an easier transition since we are Canadian and don't have the language issue... anybody else interpret differently?

Of course, wouldn't that open the doors to all of the US citizens as well? Ah well, I guess Ontario is finally getting practical.

[covarubious]

because US doctors will flock north for less money? ;)

Of course, wouldn't that open the doors to all of the US citizens as well? Ah well, I guess Ontario is finally getting practical.

[chartero]

They would still have to immigrate to work in Canada, of course.

[covarubious]

Good point! Advantage, Canadians. ;) I hope we hear more about this and they don't do a typical gov thing and drag their feet befor screwing the whole thing up...

They would still have to immigrate to work in Canada, of course.

[DoctorORG]

Good point! Advantage, Canadians. ;) I hope we hear more about this and they don't do a typical gov thing and drag their feet befor screwing the whole thing up...


strongly agree with you..... i hope this is true

[covarubious]

i mean how can they not do this? we are soo short on doctors here its ridiculous! well, we have at least 3 more years of the libs running ontario, lets hope they get it together in that time.

strongly agree with you..... i hope this is true

[DoctorORG]

i mean how can they not do this? we are soo short on doctors here its ridiculous! well, we have at least 3 more years of the libs running ontario, lets hope they get it together in that time.


im optimistic, and at the same time skeptic... but you're right, there is at least another 3-4 yrs so things will be diffferent by then, but how it would affect saba graduates would be a different story... after all, we would be saba graduates (which would is something that I would be really proud of cuz it shows how we love medicine so much that are willing to leave our country and move to Saba and study there, and accept all the challenges to get residency match in US, etc etc etc) and I hope they don't put us in the same category as other carribean schools.

[covarubious]

true... while there is no real relationship with canada (wink wink Nova Scotia) Saba is pretty well recognized here soo many Ontario students go there. They continue to match people in Canada every year so that can only help. Besides, these new rules seem to want to help IMG's get over the hurdles of coming up to Canadian standards. Well, we are Canadian, english speaking for the most part lol so you would assume we would transition easily...

im optimistic, and at the same time skeptic... but you're right, there is at least another 3-4 yrs so things will be diffferent by then, but how it would affect saba graduates would be a different story... after all, we would be saba graduates (which would is something that I would be really proud of cuz it shows how we love medicine so much that are willing to leave our country and move to Saba and study there, and accept all the challenges to get residency match in US, etc etc etc) and I hope they don't put us in the same category as other carribean schools.

[HJMA]

At this moment, only FP doctors can go back to Ontario without doing additional residency. FP is 2 years in Canada. All other residencies in Canada are one year more than US, therefore, one more year of training is required if want to go back to Ontario.

[covarubious]

luckily FP is my current goal... Who knows what will happen once I am out there exploring though...

At this moment, only FP doctors can go back to Ontario without doing additional residency. FP is 2 years in Canada. All other residencies in Canada are one year more than US, therefore, one more year of training is required if want to go back to Ontario.

[MatCFAMD]

Hi,

It looks that this initiative by Ontario gov't only addresses the repatriation of those who already completed their residency training elsewhere and are citizens and permanent residents, and those who are immigrating to Canada and are already specialists. It is clear that this does not address the issue that is immediately relevant to those who went to school outside Canada and are seeking residency training in Canada, as the minister himself states the operative words "foreign-trained doctors", and "not adding spots for medical residency". This implies that the initiative is for those who have already completed their residency training outside Canada and will be granted a temp. license under supervision, and does not have to spend at least one year of residency (which is quite difficult in the present circumstances as most residencies start at PGY-1).

The other fundamental issue of increasing the number of residency positions is not part of this initiative (read below). This news does not and will not change the situation of those who are studying outside Canada and will be seeking residency training in Canada. Canadians studying abroad most of them will still be going to the States to get their postgraduate training.

While it appears that it makes sense financially for the gov't. to prioritize those who are already have their postgraduate training to just undergo supervised training with temp. license over those who are seeking residency training in Canada (this cuts considerable cost if gov't creates more residency positions), it doesn't appear promising to a lot of Canadians and permanent residents studying medicine outside the country. Foresight seems to be telling us that the gov't will use the pool of those who already foreign-trained (whether already inside Canada, repatriation, or those are just about to immigrate and already specialists), as they don't have to create more residency positions. Is that too pessimistic ?

Not only that the gov't has already saved a lot of money from not increasing the medical schools enrollment (how much it costs per student in a public funded system such as ours?), it is also saving a lot by not having to create more residency positions but merely granting supervised training for those who have postgraduate training. It is good for those who are in this pool, but not so for those who will be just graduating from offshore/abroad. In the end, it is a systematic outsourcing of expensive medical education and postgraduating training, one that is already battered with ethical issues as the system taps into the pool of foreign-trained doctors who come from countries that are badly in need of the same services.

I have yet to see a system that the gov't can come up with that is at least, a win-win solution -- as at present, millions of Canadian who don't have doctors are clearly at a loss, and so are those doctors who have been seeking the license and the postgraduate training they need. I don't think the addition of one medical school (Northern Ontario) that accepts only 50 will solve the country's doctor shortage problem (and Ontario's to say the least). Funding is at the heart of the problem.

TORONTO — The Ontario government announced Friday on that it plans to lift restrictions on foreign-trained doctors and to fast-track applications to help them start practising as soon as they enter Canada. The move is designed to reduce the province's critical shortage of physicians and is part of a plan that Health Minister George Smitherman said will make Ontario the country's leader in integrating foreign-trained doctors.
But critics said the push to bring more foreign doctors to Canada won't help physicians who already live here and are stuck doing odd jobs. One medical association also criticized the changes as a flawed and potentially immoral approach.
“I think we have to seriously look at the ethics,” said Karl Stobbe, president of the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada. “We lure them over here and a lot of times the countries we're taking them from … have a bigger problem than we have and we're actually making their problem worse.”
Under the proposed changes, doctors licensed in the United States and Commonwealth countries, as well as the other provinces, would be eligible to begin practising in Ontario without having to go through onerous assessments and evaluation periods. That would bring Ontario in line with other provinces, such as Alberta and British Columbia, which already have programs to tap into the talented pool of foreign doctors whose training is equivalent to Canadian requirements.
The province will also create a new “transitional licence” that would eliminate the need for foreign-trained physicians to wait years before being allowed to practise. The changes would let foreign specialists whose credentials differ substantially from Canadian requirements practise in a supervised setting. The transitional licence would last between two and five years, during which the doctors would be responsible for undergoing training to meet Canadian requirements.
“This is a total change in the way we do things,” said Laurel Broten, parliamentary assistant to the Health Minister and author of the government's new report on reducing barriers to foreign doctors.
The government also intends to improve its ability to quickly assess internationally trained doctors in order to determine what type of training or language education they would need to work in Canada.
Mr. Smitherman said it's impossible to say how many new doctors this program could generate because it focuses on streamlining the registration process for foreign-trained physicians, not adding spots for medical residents.
“It's not about simply creating more residency positions,” Mr. Smitherman said. “This is about transitioning those specialists into opportunities without having to go through residency, and they would be supervised by existing physicians in those environments.”
Although the changes may offer some help to doctors who want to move to Canada, Conservative health critic Elizabeth Witmer criticized the government for failing to create more residency positions to help foreign-trained doctors who already live in Canada and are stuck in dead-end jobs.

[covarubious]

In regards to med school spots U of t is supposed to be adding a bunch of new spots/new campus soon. When exactly who knows... Yeah, the residencey things is an issue but at least this is a step in the right dirrection. Who knows, this might be a catalyst for better things to come...

Hi,

It looks that this initiative by Ontario gov't only addresses the repatriation of those who already completed their residency training elsewhere and are citizens and permanent residents, and those who are immigrating to Canada and are already specialists. It is clear that this does not address the issue that is immediately relevant to those who went to school outside Canada and are seeking residency training in Canada, as the minister himself states the operative words "foreign-trained doctors", and "not adding spots for medical residency". This implies that the initiative is for those who have already completed their residency training outside Canada and will be granted a temp. license under supervision, and does not have to spend at least one year of residency (which is quite difficult in the present circumstances as most residencies start at PGY-1).

The other fundamental issue of increasing the number of residency positions is not part of this initiative (read below). This news does not and will not change the situation of those who are studying outside Canada and will be seeking residency training in Canada. Canadians studying abroad most of them will still be going to the States to get their postgraduate training.

While it appears that it makes sense financially for the gov't. to prioritize those who are already have their postgraduate training to just undergo supervised training with temp. license over those who are seeking residency training in Canada (this cuts considerable cost if gov't creates more residency positions), it doesn't appear promising to a lot of Canadians and permanent residents studying medicine outside the country. Foresight seems to be telling us that the gov't will use the pool of those who already foreign-trained (whether already inside Canada, repatriation, or those are just about to immigrate and already specialists), as they don't have to create more residency positions. Is that too pessimistic ?

Not only that the gov't has already saved a lot of money from not increasing the medical schools enrollment (how much it costs per student in a public funded system such as ours?), it is also saving a lot by not having to create more residency positions but merely granting supervised training for those who have postgraduate training. It is good for those who are in this pool, but not so for those who will be just graduating from offshore/abroad. In the end, it is a systematic outsourcing of expensive medical education and postgraduating training, one that is already battered with ethical issues as the system taps into the pool of foreign-trained doctors who come from countries that are badly in need of the same services.

I have yet to see a system that the gov't can come up with that is at least, a win-win solution -- as at present, millions of Canadian who don't have doctors are clearly at a loss, and so are those doctors who have been seeking the license and the postgraduate training they need. I don't think the addition of one medical school (Northern Ontario) that accepts only 50 will solve the country's doctor shortage problem (and Ontario's to say the least). Funding is at the heart of the problem.

[senz_asian]

I believed the article said "Doctors lisensed in the U.S." and of course .... that's exactly what we will be doing and going through. .... If they open up the doors for Canadian doctors trained in the US either by going through a LCME accredited American school or through Carribbean ones, that will ease a lot of critical shortages across Canada.




I’m pretty sure since we will have the usmle that we will be treated like an American doc since we would have been educated to their standard (hopefully) and written their exams. Either way, we should still have an easier transition since we are Canadian and don't have the language issue... anybody else interpret differently?

[DoctorORG]

In regards to med school spots U of t is supposed to be adding a bunch of new spots/new campus soon. When exactly who knows... Yeah, the residencey things is an issue but at least this is a step in the right dirrection. Who knows, this might be a catalyst for better things to come...

where do you get this info from?

[covarubious]

a couple of friends who go to U of T... and by a bunch don't think hundreds lol maybe a few dozen

where do you get this info from?

[Mike77]

I believed the article said "Doctors lisensed in the U.S." and of course .... that's exactly what we will be doing and going through. .... If they open up the doors for Canadian doctors trained in the US either by going through a LCME accredited American school or through Carribbean ones, that will ease a lot of critical shortages across Canada.

exactly... It allows us to match in the US, which is on average a bit less competitive from Saba, and then work in Canada afterwards....

[covarubious]

the only thing about canadians training in the US is the visa stuff...

exactly... It allows us to match in the US, which is on average a bit less competitive from Saba, and then work in Canada afterwards....

[DoctorORG]

a couple of friends who go to U of T... and by a bunch don't think hundreds lol maybe a few dozen


I hope those are in medical school, and not undergrad... There are so many rumors all over the place, all initiating from the fact that Ontario is short in doctors... for example, my surgeon (i had a knee surgery last yr) told me that it iwll be so easy to go into medical school in 2 yrs (which is technically next year) since there is a serious shortage in physicians here... and well, they opened the Northern Ontario med school and you have to be living in rural area for 10yrs in order to be able to get into that school... so basically they designed a school specifically for people who live in rural areas, and they can get in with a 3.0 and 10-9-10 mcat.

I dont trust the rumors at this point of my life, but thanks for sharing your info. Even if they open a new campus, the cut off will drop to 3.8 from 3.89.. still tougher to get into than Harvard!

[covarubious]

ouch, sorry about the knee, i hope it wasn't Saba cliff related. ;) was your dr smokin crack when he fixed your knee? 30 more spots won't do nothing unfortunately... Yeah, med student but this is coming soon, not rigth away... If Ontario opened another 2 or 3 schools and saved space for Ontario students for the majority of the seats then that might fix things a bit... crazy... we have the highest population... I'm just bitter because if i had stayed on the east coast and went to Uni I would be able to get into MUN med school easy ;)

My buddy who just graduated in Chicago, his sister is also in med school. Shes smart, high gpa, clinical experience and spent a year helping to build a hospital in africa. She couldn't get an interview in Ontario but she got into John Hopkins and Yale med school. She chose Yale because they gave her the higher scholorship. Thats why I won't bother applying here...

I hope those are in medical school, and not undergrad... There are so many rumors all over the place, all initiating from the fact that Ontario is short in doctors... for example, my surgeon (i had a knee surgery last yr) told me that it iwll be so easy to go into medical school in 2 yrs (which is technically next year) since there is a serious shortage in physicians here... and well, they opened the Northern Ontario med school and you have to be living in rural area for 10yrs in order to be able to get into that school... so basically they designed a school specifically for people who live in rural areas, and they can get in with a 3.0 and 10-9-10 mcat.

I dont trust the rumors at this point of my life, but thanks for sharing your info. Even if they open a new campus, the cut off will drop to 3.8 from 3.89.. still tougher to get into than Harvard!

[gumby]

This is why I think we might as well annex Canada as the 51st state and be done with it. Don't get me wrong, I have all kinds of love for our neighbors from the north. Its just that between thinking that Toronto is the center of the universe and looking at practicing in the US as a necessary evil, if you just follow the old maxim of 'can't beat em, join em' and tell your queen you don't want to be a commonwealth anymore, you could hold the honor of being the largest (geographically) state in the union.

[golfman]

This is why I think we might as well annex Canada as the 51st state and be done with it. Don't get me wrong, I have all kinds of love for our neighbors from the north. Its just that between thinking that Toronto is the center of the universe and looking at practicing in the US as a necessary evil, if you just follow the old maxim of 'can't beat em, join em' and tell your queen you don't want to be a commonwealth anymore, you could hold the honor of being the largest (geographically) state in the union.

Now this, is the funniest thing i've seen on here in a long time. I can't wait to hear the responses to this.

[covarubious]

really its not worth responding to... its too bad that some people just come here to try and start drama instead of actually help others... (oops, general commentary, not response lol)

Now this, is the funniest thing i've seen on here in a long time. I can't wait to hear the responses to this.

[DoctorORG]

ouch, sorry about the knee, i hope it wasn't Saba cliff related. ;) was your dr smokin crack when he fixed your knee? 30 more spots won't do nothing unfortunately... Yeah, med student but this is coming soon, not rigth away... If Ontario opened another 2 or 3 schools and saved space for Ontario students for the majority of the seats then that might fix things a bit... crazy... we have the highest population... I'm just bitter because if i had stayed on the east coast and went to Uni I would be able to get into MUN med school easy ;)

My buddy who just graduated in Chicago, his sister is also in med school. Shes smart, high gpa, clinical experience and spent a year helping to build a hospital in africa. She couldn't get an interview in Ontario but she got into John Hopkins and Yale med school. She chose Yale because they gave her the higher scholorship. Thats why I won't bother applying here...




you were accusing me of being bitter a couple of days ago, now you're telling me the same things I was telling you :D;)
dude, ontario has the largest applicant pool for med school in north america (since we have the largest mcat writers as well), and yet we are the only province (state) in north america that dont give priority to its students, and yet we are short in doctors! i just dont get this whole equation, something in there dont make sense to me. And yes I do feel that I am being treated very unfairly because our school doesnt even offer a full physical chemistry course with lab. Honestly, we have the weirdest school system in Ontario, they make it almost impossible for us to become doctors. UofT had a 3.89 cut off last yr. My friend got into UofT with 4.0 and 43 on MCAT, plus publications. If I wanted to go that far, i'd become an astronaut ;) I am just hoping that the start giving ontario students priority, let alone building 2-3 new med schools.

[DoctorORG]

really its not worth responding to... its too bad that some people just come here to try and start drama instead of actually help others... (oops, general commentary, not response lol)


agreed....

[covarubious]

but i never said you were wrong or i disagreed with you. lol i think their messed up logic is that since there is soooo many seats (ahuh) it would be unfair to alot space only for ontario students... our school? which one you mean? i would love to kick the axx of the genius who made the decision in the 80's that we would have waaaay too many doctors and decided to cut spots in ontario med schools... (did mention i never grew up in Ontario? grew up on the east coast, moved back here when i was 17)


you were accusing me of being bitter a couple of days ago, now you're telling me the same things I was telling you :D;)
dude, ontario has the largest applicant pool for med school in north america (since we have the largest mcat writers as well), and yet we are the only province (state) in north america that dont give priority to its students, and yet we are short in doctors! i just dont get this whole equation, something in there dont make sense to me. And yes I do feel that I am being treated very unfairly because our school doesnt even offer a full physical chemistry course with lab. Honestly, we have the weirdest school system in Ontario, they make it almost impossible for us to become doctors. UofT had a 3.89 cut off last yr. My friend got into UofT with 4.0 and 43 on MCAT, plus publications. If I wanted to go that far, i'd become an astronaut ;) I am just hoping that the start giving ontario students priority, let alone building 2-3 new med schools.

[covarubious]

lol the first sign of the apocalypse? all this agreeing! careful though they might accuse you of trying to break up me and mike lol :roll:

agreed....

[DoctorORG]

lol the first sign of the apocalypse? all this agreeing! careful though they might accuse you of trying to break up me and mike lol :roll:


I dont get what you mean by saying I would be trying to break up you and mike!! i've got a life afterall here... checking out med school forums during my spare time.... (i get your sarcasm though;))

that previous post of that person has no response here, since it is not directed to med school issues etc. :bored:

[Mike77]

This is why I think we might as well annex Canada as the 51st state and be done with it. Don't get me wrong, I have all kinds of love for our neighbors from the north. Its just that between thinking that Toronto is the center of the universe and looking at practicing in the US as a necessary evil, if you just follow the old maxim of 'can't beat em, join em' and tell your queen you don't want to be a commonwealth anymore, you could hold the honor of being the largest (geographically) state in the union.

Hahaha, well I of course disagree with the first part, especially because I don't even think the US has the military to invade Micronesia right now. Everyone loves Canada, so we'd get the UN :p .

I should clarify one thing. I have lived in Canada for a good portion of my life, and I have not met one Canadian refer to her as 'our queen'. Hell, i've been in Britain for about 10 years of my life and 90% of them don't refer to her as 'our queen'. :p We are commonwealth only by technicality, and because we didn't want to go to war, eh? You guys lost countless lives because you had to be so stubborn, but we just asked nicely and got it. Thus, the tendency to be overly polite still exists to this day. :)

I've also lived in the US and trust me, some canadians might see toronto as the center of the universe, but at least they are aware that there is a universe outside of their country :) .

However, I agree with the second statement, but it is not always true. Tons of Canadian educated doctors go South even after being trained in Canada, and even more go down south to get trained in the US because they know they will make way more.

If we join the US, would we get a tax cut?

[Mike77]

I dont get what you mean by saying I would be trying to break up you and mike!! i've got a life afterall here... checking out med school forums during my spare time.... (i get your sarcasm though;))

that previous post of that person has no response here, since it is not directed to med school issues etc. :bored:

"break up me and mike?"

great, now everyone thinks I'm gay. It's my family reunion all over again.

[covarubious]

oh mike... you took the bait. tsk tsk... higher ground dude! remember, we are superior so we don't need to prove ourselves right. lol :-rainbow

Hahaha, well I of course disagree with the first part, especially because I don't even think the US has the military to invade Micronesia right now. Everyone loves Canada, so we'd get the UN :p .

I should clarify one thing. I have lived in Canada for a good portion of my life, and I have not met one Canadian refer to her as 'our queen'. Hell, i've been in Britain for about 10 years of my life and 90% of them don't refer to her as 'our queen'. :p We are commonwealth only by technicality, and because we didn't want to go to war, eh? You guys lost countless lives because you had to be so stubborn, but we just asked nicely and got it. Thus, the tendency to be overly polite still exists to this day. :)

I've also lived in the US and trust me, some canadians might see toronto as the center of the universe, but at least they are aware that there is a universe outside of their country :) .

However, I agree with the second statement, but it is not always true. Tons of Canadian educated doctors go South even after being trained in Canada, and even more go down south to get trained in the US because they know they will make way more.

If we join the US, would we get a tax cut?

[covarubious]

lol if you read a previous post i clearly state your heterosexuality! :crackingup: my family reunion would be pretty small until a few of them get out of prison ;)


"break up me and mike?"

great, now everyone thinks I'm gay. It's my family reunion all over again.

[gumby]

Hahaha, well I of course disagree with the first part, especially because I don't even think the US has the military to invade Micronesia right now. Everyone loves Canada, so we'd get the UN :p .

I should clarify one thing. I have lived in Canada for a good portion of my life, and I have not met one Canadian refer to her as 'our queen'. Hell, i've been in Britain for about 10 years of my life and 90% of them don't refer to her as 'our queen'. :p We are commonwealth only by technicality, and because we didn't want to go to war, eh? You guys lost countless lives because you had to be so stubborn, but we just asked nicely and got it. Thus, the tendency to be overly polite still exists to this day. :)

I've also lived in the US and trust me, some canadians might see toronto as the center of the universe, but at least they are aware that there is a universe outside of their country :) .

However, I agree with the second statement, but it is not always true. Tons of Canadian educated doctors go South even after being trained in Canada, and even more go down south to get trained in the US because they know they will make way more.

If we join the US, would we get a tax cut?

Ahhh, the superiority complex from the north rears its ugly head again. Loved by the UN huh? I think I would take my chances with the US Army any day of the week over the blue helmet brigade. But, since you really don't have an Army, a Navy, and Air Force, or Marines to speak of, I guess I understand why you would seek protection by any means necessary. But no need to worry my friend, we will keep protecting just like we always have. ;)
My original comments weren't meant to be mean. We really like Canadians, even though many seem to look down on the US (perhaps an inferiority complex). I was merely offering a valid solution to the predicament so many Canadian med students find themselves in. If you give up being a commonwealth, take on statehood, you could have so many of the challenges facing you go away. No more backwards policies leading to doctor shortages. Sure, things aren't perfect in the US, but think how much better it would be if you could apply for US loans to US schools.
Now, you seem very sensitive about your Queen. I apologize for bringing a touchy subject up. And yes, the United States got impatient and wanted to get a head start on the whole basic inalienable rights thing. We have this silly obsession with having freedom and all that. That's why we have this tendency to defend ourselves even to this day.
This awareness of the universe outside our country you speak of... I guess that goes beyond all the countries that the United States helps every year. Maybe its tough for us to be so aware because we are so busy providing more humanitarian aid to foreign countries than all other countries combined. We apologize and will try to become more aware.
We thank you for sending down your best and brightest doctors to help us out. It really means a lot to us that you would put up with higher pay and more job opportunities just to make our health care system run better.

[covarubious]

..........:bored:

Ahhh, the superiority complex from the north rears its ugly head again. Loved by the UN huh? I think I would take my chances with the US Army any day of the week over the blue helmet brigade. But, since you really don't have an Army, a Navy, and Air Force, or Marines to speak of, I guess I understand why you would seek protection by any means necessary. But no need to worry my friend, we will keep protecting just like we always have. ;)
My original comments weren't meant to be mean. We really like Canadians, even though many seem to look down on the US (perhaps an inferiority complex). I was merely offering a valid solution to the predicament so many Canadian med students find themselves in. If you give up being a commonwealth, take on statehood, you could have so many of the challenges facing you go away. No more backwards policies leading to doctor shortages. Sure, things aren't perfect in the US, but think how much better it would be if you could apply for US loans to US schools.
Now, you seem very sensitive about your Queen. I apologize for bringing a touchy subject up. And yes, the United States got impatient and wanted to get a head start on the whole basic inalienable rights thing. We have this silly obsession with having freedom and all that. That's why we have this tendency to defend ourselves even to this day.
This awareness of the universe outside our country you speak of... I guess that goes beyond all the countries that the United States helps every year. Maybe its tough for us to be so aware because we are so busy providing more humanitarian aid to foreign countries than all other countries combined. We apologize and will try to become more aware.
We thank you for sending down your best and brightest doctors to help us out. It really means a lot to us that you would put up with higher pay and more job opportunities just to make our health care system run better.

[gumby]

..........:bored:

:crackingup:

[covarubious]

:bored:
from now on this will be my only response to people who just post to trash talk and insult people in a sad attempt to get attention and cause drama...

:crackingup:

[gumby]

:bored:
from now on this will be my only response to people who just post to trash talk and insult people in a sad attempt to get attention and cause drama...

:( Well that wasn't very nice. Why would you try to hurt my feelings like that?

[chartero]

If Canada became a U.S. state, it would be just a few million shy of California as the second-largest state by population, far exceeding Texas, New York, etc. Picture this delegation in the House and in the Electoral College. A stable coalition of Democrats and centre-left Canadians could expect to control the legislature and the executive for the conceivable future, and they'd basically extend most Canadian policies across the whole single country. Be careful what you wish for!

[DoctorORG]

Ahhh, the superiority complex from the north rears its ugly head again. Loved by the UN huh? I think I would take my chances with the US Army any day of the week over the blue helmet brigade. But, since you really don't have an Army, a Navy, and Air Force, or Marines to speak of, I guess I understand why you would seek protection by any means necessary. But no need to worry my friend, we will keep protecting just like we always have. ;)
My original comments weren't meant to be mean. We really like Canadians, even though many seem to look down on the US (perhaps an inferiority complex). I was merely offering a valid solution to the predicament so many Canadian med students find themselves in. If you give up being a commonwealth, take on statehood, you could have so many of the challenges facing you go away. No more backwards policies leading to doctor shortages. Sure, things aren't perfect in the US, but think how much better it would be if you could apply for US loans to US schools.
Now, you seem very sensitive about your Queen. I apologize for bringing a touchy subject up. And yes, the United States got impatient and wanted to get a head start on the whole basic inalienable rights thing. We have this silly obsession with having freedom and all that. That's why we have this tendency to defend ourselves even to this day.
This awareness of the universe outside our country you speak of... I guess that goes beyond all the countries that the United States helps every year. Maybe its tough for us to be so aware because we are so busy providing more humanitarian aid to foreign countries than all other countries combined. We apologize and will try to become more aware.
We thank you for sending down your best and brightest doctors to help us out. It really means a lot to us that you would put up with higher pay and more job opportunities just to make our health care system run better.

with all kinds of respect, i think this post is bad (editted) .... don't do it again plz!

[wolfvgang22]

Before this thread degenerates into personal attacks, lets please return to the original topic of hopefully increasing medical practice and training opportunities in in Ontario.
Otherwise I may have to close this thread.

If forum members would like to discuss politics of U.S. vs. Canada in general please visit the relaxing lounge forum.
Thanks for your help!
~W

[Mike77]

sorry wolf, but it's so hard to keep on topic in these damn forums! They always tend to drift off into tangents, just like.. well.. normal conversations! :)

Closing comment: It was a good thing that the US did what it did in it's last couple wars. The Vietcong and the Iraqi army (or the Taliban.. Wait.. aren't they the same thing? ) were amassing millions on the border.

P.S: We beat you in 1812 and we'd do it again.

Can we transfer this to the relaxing forum? I'm enjoying this :P ! I love pointless debates.

[Mike77]

TORONTO — The Ontario government announced Friday on that it plans to lift restrictions on foreign-trained doctors and to fast-track applications to help them start practising as soon as they enter Canada. The move is designed to reduce the province's critical shortage of physicians and is part of a plan that Health Minister George Smitherman said will make Ontario the country's leader in integrating foreign-trained doctors.
But critics said the push to bring more foreign doctors to Canada won't help physicians who already live here and are stuck doing odd jobs. One medical association also criticized the changes as a flawed and potentially immoral approach.
“I think we have to seriously look at the ethics,” said Karl Stobbe, president of the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada. “We lure them over here and a lot of times the countries we're taking them from … have a bigger problem than we have and we're actually making their problem worse.”
Under the proposed changes, doctors licensed in the United States and Commonwealth countries, as well as the other provinces, would be eligible to begin practising in Ontario without having to go through onerous assessments and evaluation periods. That would bring Ontario in line with other provinces, such as Alberta and British Columbia, which already have programs to tap into the talented pool of foreign doctors whose training is equivalent to Canadian requirements.
The province will also create a new “transitional licence” that would eliminate the need for foreign-trained physicians to wait years before being allowed to practise. The changes would let foreign specialists whose credentials differ substantially from Canadian requirements practise in a supervised setting. The transitional licence would last between two and five years, during which the doctors would be responsible for undergoing training to meet Canadian requirements.
“This is a total change in the way we do things,” said Laurel Broten, parliamentary assistant to the Health Minister and author of the government's new report on reducing barriers to foreign doctors.
The government also intends to improve its ability to quickly assess internationally trained doctors in order to determine what type of training or language education they would need to work in Canada.
Mr. Smitherman said it's impossible to say how many new doctors this program could generate because it focuses on streamlining the registration process for foreign-trained physicians, not adding spots for medical residents.
“It's not about simply creating more residency positions,” Mr. Smitherman said. “This is about transitioning those specialists into opportunities without having to go through residency, and they would be supervised by existing physicians in those environments.”
Although the changes may offer some help to doctors who want to move to Canada, Conservative health critic Elizabeth Witmer criticized the government for failing to create more residency positions to help foreign-trained doctors who already live in Canada and are stuck in dead-end jobs.

Back on topic: When were they planning on implementing these changes? Also, where was the source of this article?

[covarubious]

beat me too it. i was about to ask the same question. ;)

Back on topic: When were they planning on implementing these changes? Also, where was the source of this article?

[Big Baller]

beat me too it. i was about to ask the same question. ;)

I got this article from Toronto Star. An article of similar nature was posted in national post too. I was discussing this matter with one of my uncles who is an IMG too. When he moved to Canada, he first went for USMLE,s but didn't like the health care setup in states so he wrote the Canadian exams and now he,s a practicing physician in NewMarket, ON in Emergency Medicine. He told me that during his years of struggle, he encountered tons of articles on the same issue but nothing has happened since then. This might be a *** of hope but he was like its not possible that they would implement this change because then there would be an influx on Physicians from US which would severely affect the already broken Canadian health care system ( i mean they don't have enough resources and money to pay them and stuff) ...you know what i mean.
But that being said, i keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.

[covarubious]

an influx, really? when there are soo many canadian doctors trained here and can practice here but choose to leave to the states to practice? i hope they realise the desperate need on Ontario and get their heads out of the sand. get this done now! a friend of mine is also friends with the IMG dirrector from U of T so I'll have to try to find a way to set up a meeting ;)

I got this article from Toronto Star. An article of similar nature was posted in national post too. I was discussing this matter with one of my uncles who is an IMG too. When he moved to Canada, he first went for USMLE,s but didn't like the health care setup in states so he wrote the Canadian exams and now he,s a practicing physician in NewMarket, ON in Emergency Medicine. He told me that during his years of struggle, he encountered tons of articles on the same issue but nothing has happened since then. This might be a *** of hope but he was like its not possible that they would implement this change because then there would be an influx on Physicians from US which would severely affect the already broken Canadian health care system ( i mean they don't have enough resources and money to pay them and stuff) ...you know what i mean.
But that being said, i keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.

[gumby]

sorry wolf, but it's so hard to keep on topic in these damn forums! They always tend to drift off into tangents, just like.. well.. normal conversations! :)

Closing comment: It was a good thing that the US did what it did in it's last couple wars. The Vietcong and the Iraqi army (or the Taliban.. Wait.. aren't they the same thing? ) were amassing millions on the border.

P.S: We beat you in 1812 and we'd do it again.

Can we transfer this to the relaxing forum? I'm enjoying this :P ! I love pointless debates.

Thanks for sparing us an invasion. Very merciful of you. :rolleyes: But since we are back on topic, I was just curious about what exactly would have to be done legislatively to implement the changes that this article talks about? Does one particular party have any tendency to make the changes more so than another?

[covarubious]

Well, health care is governed by each province and currently the Liberal party runs the show. Since they have at least 3 more years on their term and they could really use something to strengthen their base in the burbs (which is underserved by dr's and tends to vote conservative) a move by them aimed at fixing the doctor shortage could only help them. So currently they have the power, time and if they are smart, the motivation to make this happen... what needs to be done legislatively, not too sure about that one... can't imagine it being that hard to pull off if they are motivated enough.

Thanks for sparing us an invasion. Very merciful of you. :rolleyes: But since we are back on topic, I was just curious about what exactly would have to be done legislatively to implement the changes that this article talks about? Does one particular party have any tendency to make the changes more so than another?

[MatCFAMD]

No, it is not a Statute of some kind, Law, or Act of the Legislative Assembly. It is a procedural in nature, Ontario wants to fast-track licensing of foreign-trained doctors. Also, check out the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario website under new Registration Policies. Read (below) it includes CMGs, USMGs, and IMGs who trained in the States.

Graduates of any recognized medical school (LCME-accredited or not) who within five years at the time of application have satisfactorily completed an ACGME-accredited residency training program that is comparable in content and duration to the RCPSC or CFPC residency training program; and passed the requisite specialty examination in the U.S., where the examination process is comparable to the RCPSC or CFPC program, will be eligible for independent certification, subject to their:
<LI class=articlebody>having passed MCCQE Part 1 and 2 or its equivalent; <LI class=articlebody>participating in an enhanced, specialty-specific quality assurance program; <LI class=articlebody>participating in an accredited specialty-specific program of continuing professional development (e.g., RCPSC or CFPC);
satisfactorily completing a specialty-specific peer assessment at the end of one year of practice.
Now, read this one, also from the official website. Ontario is also granting the exemption from the Canadian Citizenship/Permanent Residents requirement.

Canadian Citizenship/Permanent Resident Status Exemption

The standards and qualifications for the issuance of a certificate of registration authorizing independent practice, set out in Section 3 of Ontario Regulation 865/93, stipulate that the applicant must have:

A degree in medicine.<LI class=articlebody>Successfully completed Part 1 and Part 2 of the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examination. <LI class=articlebody>Completed a clerkship at an accredited medical school in Canada; or one year of postgraduate medical education at an accredited medical school in Canada; or one year of active medical practice in Canada.
Certification by examination by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or by the College of Family Physicians of Canada.
Then read their Rationale, also from their official website.

Rationale for Exemptions
Specialists often relocate from Canada to the United States and vice versa. In addition to coordination of the accreditation programs at the postgraduate level, there is little or no evidence that training is substantially superior or inferior in any of the ACGME or RCPSC specialties, or in the equivalent programs in Family Medicine between the U.S. and Canada. While it is likely that programmatic differences do exist, it is probable that these differences are small compared to those that are attributed to individual candidates. The College acknowledges this fundamental similarity, and moves to recognize candidates from ACGME-accredited training regimens as being equivalent to those from Canadian training programs. At the same time, however, recognizing the gravity of this change, and allowing for the possibility that the performance of some individual candidates from ACGME-accredited programs might fall at or near the borderline in respect to traditional Canadian expectations, additional quality assurance steps should be put in place until experience has been gained of the outcomes of this change in policy.

In effect, as for IMGs who are Canadians/Permanent Residents and trained in the US and want to practice in Ontario -- the new registration policies will fast-track licensure after your postgraduate training in the US.
For those Canadians/PR IMGs who have already completed their postgraduate training in the US, this is highly relevant. As for those Canadians/PR IMGs who are graduating, or about to graduate from offshore/abroad, most of them (those who don't match in CaRMS, or who apply to ERAS only) will still have to do their postgraduate training in the US, as there is no increase in the number of residency positions apart from whatever number is already available through CaRMS and Ontario's CEHPEA.

So in effect, and going forward, Canadian/PR IMGs who trained in the US (and basically those who trained in the US), may be saving a year or two worth of additional postgraduating training in Canada, as a quality assurance and a peer assessment program are what constitute the substitute to the previous additional Canadian postgraduate training requirement, without compromising the quality of service.

What bugs me, why are they coming up with this only now ?

[MatCFAMD]

It looks the possible ramifications of this are the following:
- IMGs from IMED listed schools but who did their postgraduate training in the US (ACGME-accredited Postgraduate Training Programs), will be fast-tracked for licensure in Ontario (subject to other requirements)
- Canadians/PR grads from Canadian medical schools but trained in the US
- US grads
under quality assurance and peer-assessment program.

Impact on the J1-visa
Most Canadians/PR who are IMGs use H1B and J1 visa to enter US as the their route to ACGME-accredited postgraduate training, since the TN Visa (NAFTA) does not apply for physicians (but it does for Nurses). At present, only Ontario and Newfoundland issue Statement of Need to obtain a J1-visa for Family Medicine residency in the US.

Because the number of Canadian residency positions is still scarce, and because most Canadian/PR IMGs will train in the US, it could get easier to get the J1-visa (which has a 2-year rule to return to home country after postgraduate training). This is relevant because not all programs in the US want to bother hiring on H1B visa, only on J1-visa. The downside of J1-visa is you can't moonlight, and will need a J1-waiver first before switching to other kinds of visa (H1B included).

Ontario's new Registration policies is reviewing the 'moonlighting' policies, it is in the works, so residents can make other remunerations in addition to their resident salaries. When that happens, it could "potentially" alleviate, but only slightly, the service demands in Ontario. While that is good for residents and good for the people (since working hours will be spent outside the training to meet people's health care demands), this and the other changes already highlighted above could result in the number of residency training positions available to slowly grow, if not reduced.

Still in the long run, it remains quite a detour on your way to return to your home province. From offshore school to USA, to Ontario.

[covarubious]

Wow, thanks for all that info!! Much appreciated! (a little rough to read at 7am on a saterday at work though lol) I think any Canadian student who goes to Saba is pretty much already resigned to going to the states and jump through a bunch of hoops first befor getting home. So this info is welcome news. A system where we can go direct from Saba to Ontario would be ever better but at this point you take what you can get. ;)

It looks the possible ramifications of this are the following:
- IMGs from IMED listed schools but who did their postgraduate training in the US (ACGME-accredited Postgraduate Training Programs), will be fast-tracked for licensure in Ontario (subject to other requirements)
- Canadians/PR grads from Canadian medical schools but trained in the US
- US grads
under quality assurance and peer-assessment program.

Impact on the J1-visa
Most Canadians/PR who are IMGs use H1B and J1 visa to enter US as the their route to ACGME-accredited postgraduate training, since the TN Visa (NAFTA) does not apply for physicians (but it does for Nurses). At present, only Ontario and Newfoundland issue Statement of Need to obtain a J1-visa for Family Medicine residency in the US.

Because the number of Canadian residency positions is still scarce, and because most Canadian/PR IMGs will train in the US, it could get easier to get the J1-visa (which has a 2-year rule to return to home country after postgraduate training). This is relevant because not all programs in the US want to bother hiring on H1B visa, only on J1-visa. The downside of J1-visa is you can't moonlight, and will need a J1-waiver first before switching to other kinds of visa (H1B included).

Ontario's new Registration policies is reviewing the 'moonlighting' policies, it is in the works, so residents can make other remunerations in addition to their resident salaries. When that happens, it could "potentially" alleviate, but only slightly, the service demands in Ontario. While that is good for residents and good for the people (since working hours will be spent outside the training to meet people's health care demands), this and the other changes already highlighted above could result in the number of residency training positions available to slowly grow, if not reduced.

Still in the long run, it remains quite a detour on your way to return to your home province. From offshore school to USA, to Ontario.

[ValuableCanadian]

Back on topic: When were they planning on implementing these changes? Also, where was the source of this article?

Report on Removing Barriers for International Medical Graduates. Five Point Action Plan

MOHLTC - Public Information - Ministry Reports - Report on Removing Barriers for International Medical Doctors (http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/pub/ministry_reports/removing_barriers/removing_barriers.html)

[ValuableCanadian]

.......Impact on the J1-visa
Most Canadians/PR who are IMGs use H1B and J1 visa to enter US as the their route to ACGME-accredited postgraduate training, since the TN Visa (NAFTA) does not apply for physicians (but it does for Nurses). At present, only Ontario and Newfoundland issue Statement of Need to obtain a J1-visa for Family Medicine residency in the US. ......

What changes / impact do you want to see?

[MatCFAMD]

It is not explicit, however, whether there is going to be a Return of Service or not in the fast-tracking of foreign-trained doctors' licensing, other than what they describe as one of the improvements which is limiting the ROS to two years if the ministry funds the assessment and no ROS, if the cost of the assessment is borne by the foreign-trained physician.

If and when the no-ROS option would in fact be available under this particular MOHLTC plan, it is favourable to foreign-trained doctors impacted under the plan. Quite easily and readily, one can see that the fast-tracking may or may not serve the province's underserved areas which is where most of the sore spots are in the ailing health care delivery to the largest extent that the plan was intended to serve.

So with the no-ROS option, from the looks of it, the province is in effect going to reinforce the ROS not to the participants of this new Ontario plan, but largely only to the pool of the IMGs who participate through CaRMS (and CEHPEA), where ROS continues to be attached as a contract upon starting the residency training. In other words, the new Ontario fast-tracking plan still leaves the source of ROS to the IMG pool that participates in the Match. So in practice, no-ROS option for fast-tracking, but must-ROS for IMGs in the Match.

Report on Removing Barriers for International Medical Graduates. Five Point Action Plan

[MatCFAMD]

From a Canadian IMG standpoint:

1\ Less restriction on doing electives in Canada.
2\ Increasing from 12 weeks to 16 weeks of electives allowed.
3\ Having a national certification similar to ECFMG that is less fragmented. At present, it is quite fragmented in Canada, when IMGs apply for postgraduate training across provinces. Timing, the sequence, and documents/credential submission can be problematic and are not streamlined. Canadian IMGs can miss a CaRMS application cycle only to the lack of streamlined process.
4\ Allow core clerkship rotations of Canadian IMGs through school-to-school affiliations.
5\ Tear down the parallel stream. Open 1st iteration to both CMGs and Canadian IMGs.

From a Canadian IMG US-trained standpoint:
1\ Fast-track licensure (subject to other requirements) after the postgraduate training is obtained from the US on J1-visa. It is still common that during the 2-year rule of returning to home country, the Canadian IMG still faces hurdles to obtain licensure, despite the Statement of Need from the ministry when the trainee applied for J1.

2\ A deliberate Repatriation program for Canadian IMGs to practice in Ontario.

3\ Make the same offer of incentive to Canadian IMGs as they do to CMGs: tuition reimbursement to practice in designated underserviced areas.

4\ Relax the stringent ROS contract for Canadian IMGs going through CaRMS.

:please:

What changes / impact do you want to see?

[ValuableCanadian]

From a Canadian IMG standpoint:
5\ Tear down the parallel stream. Open 1st iteration to both CMGs and Canadian IMGs.

This is unlikely to happen until there are many many more residency spots than CMGs. Consider from the other side of the field, the CMGs. They are guaranteed a residency position.
[/quote]

From a Canadian IMG US-trained standpoint:
1\ Fast-track licensure (subject to other requirements) after the postgraduate training is obtained from the US on J1-visa. It is still common that during the 2-year rule of returning to home country, the Canadian IMG still faces hurdles to obtain licensure, despite the Statement of Need from the ministry when the trainee applied for J1.

--What does the 2-year rule have to do with Canadian licensure?
--The Statement of Need does not guarantee licensure or a job. If you sign the consent to release of information, you can get help in contacting recruiters who will help you with placement and licensure.
--If you write the MCC exams and RCPSC or CCFP, there are no 'hurdles' to licensure - you can practice anywhere in Canada. Unless of course you find taking those exams a burden, then there will be 'hurdles' because of the lack of uniformity across Canada for licensure.
--If you mean fast track US trained specialists without writing MCC and RCPSC exams, I would agree a national process/method would be very useful. I wonder though if you are aware that a number of licensing authorities already offer limited/restricted licensure to US trained specialists/family medicine.


2\ A deliberate Repatriation program for Canadian IMGs to practice in Ontario.
HealthForceOntario exists for this purpose.


3\ Make the same offer of incentive to Canadian IMGs as they do to CMGs: tuition reimbursement to practice in designated underserviced areas.
These already exist. You can get financial incentives if you ask for it.

Nothing to say on the other items.

[clive]

What changes / impact do you want to see?

No limits to statements of need being issued.


On another note, since George Smitherman is no longer the Minister of Health, are the talks that he was supposed to have with the CPSO over?

[ray farrell]

I wish they'd drop the requirement to write the MCC EE exam in order to get the Statement of Need Letter. It would save some time and money and if folks have already passed Step 1, 2ck ans 2cs they have already demonstrated a level of understanding equivalent to this exam if not higher. Other countries just give folks the letter no strings attached.

[ValuableCanadian]

I wish they'd drop the requirement to write the MCC EE exam in order to get the Statement of Need Letter. It would save some time and money and if folks have already passed Step 1, 2ck ans 2cs they have already demonstrated a level of understanding equivalent to this exam if not higher. Other countries just give folks the letter no strings attached.

Please propose an alternative strategy. How would they know you have a medical degree / will be graduating with a medical degree soon? In your view, what should an IMGraduate / IMStudent be asked to do?
[Cdn med students going to the US for residency have to prove they will be graduating soon. Cdn residents going to the US for advanced fellowship have to prove they are nearly finished their specialty training. ]

[nisser]

Please propose an alternative strategy. How would they know you have a medical degree / will be graduating with a medical degree soon? In your view, what should an IMGraduate / IMStudent be asked to do?
[Cdn med students going to the US for residency have to prove they will be graduating soon. Cdn residents going to the US for advanced fellowship have to prove they are nearly finished their specialty training. ]

The alternative strategy is to not need it. There are 2 types of students looking for the statement of need (and thus the visa):

1) Students wishing to come back and practice medicine in Canada (this group SHOULD require to take the MCCEE)

2) Students that don't ever want to come back and live on the edge of the arctic circle-asking this group for the MCCEE and requiring them to come back to Canada after residency makes absolutely no sense at all

Also the fact that Canada can determine what specialty you must go into in another country with the statement of need is ludicrous. You can't even get the statement of need if your province doesn't have a shortage of the specialy even if you don't want to have anything to do with Canada. The logic is out of this world.

[DoctorORG]

so if you're a canadian and wanna practice in US (and never come back to Canada again), you need to get premission from the Government of Canada in order to get the visa for US residency? let's imagine i get my MD from Saba and wanna do my residency in US... I do need J1 visa (or something like that), but in order to get that visa, I need Canada's permission..... what happens if they don't give me permission?

[rdecastro]

If [parts of] Canada was admitted to the union, it would be as at least 4-5 different States....and the US would be stupid to take Quebec, certainly, and probably the maritimes. Who needs those kinds of problems?

Now, Alberta, Manitoba, Yukon, Nunavut, maybe BC, maybe not Ontario are workable.

And as far as Quebec, most of the people in Northern Quebec (including the James River Hydro facilities) would vote to join Ontario... So would all the federal employees around Hull and Gatineau, just to get away from the frankophones - which is why there isn't much talk of separation, any more.

[med etudiant]

Ahhh, the superiority complex from the north rears its ugly head again. Loved by the UN huh? I think I would take my chances with the US Army any day of the week over the blue helmet brigade. But, since you really don't have an Army, a Navy, and Air Force, or Marines to speak of, I guess I understand why you would seek protection by any means necessary. But no need to worry my friend, we will keep protecting just like we always have. ;)
My original comments weren't meant to be mean. We really like Canadians, even though many seem to look down on the US (perhaps an inferiority complex). I was merely offering a valid solution to the predicament so many Canadian med students find themselves in. If you give up being a commonwealth, take on statehood, you could have so many of the challenges facing you go away. No more backwards policies leading to doctor shortages. Sure, things aren't perfect in the US, but think how much better it would be if you could apply for US loans to US schools.
Now, you seem very sensitive about your Queen. I apologize for bringing a touchy subject up. And yes, the United States got impatient and wanted to get a head start on the whole basic inalienable rights thing. We have this silly obsession with having freedom and all that. That's why we have this tendency to defend ourselves even to this day.
This awareness of the universe outside our country you speak of... I guess that goes beyond all the countries that the United States helps every year. Maybe its tough for us to be so aware because we are so busy providing more humanitarian aid to foreign countries than all other countries combined. We apologize and will try to become more aware.
We thank you for sending down your best and brightest doctors to help us out. It really means a lot to us that you would put up with higher pay and more job opportunities just to make our health care system run better.




Your kidding right? Americans give less. (Most) Amricans are basicaly brainwashed by the media that we rely on to tell us what to think on a daily basis.
The World’s Most Generous Misers
Tsunami reporting misrepresented U.S. giving

By Ben Somberg (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=10&author_id=282)


In March 1997, a joint poll by the Washington Post, Harvard University and the Kaiser Family Foundation asked Americans which area of federal expenditure they thought was the largest. Was it Social Security (which actually constituted about a quarter of the budget)? Medicare? Military spending? Sixty-four percent of respondents said it was foreign aid—when in reality foreign aid made up only about 1 percent of total outlays (Washington Post, 3/29/97).

Today, Americans think about 20 percent of the federal budget goes toward foreign aid. When told the actual figure for U.S. foreign aid giving (about 1.6 percent of the discretionary budget), most respondents said they did not believe the number was the full amount (Program on International Policy Attitudes, 3/7/05).

It’s no wonder that most Americans think they live in an extremely generous nation: Media reports often quote government officials pointing out that their country is the largest overall aid donor, and the biggest donor of humanitarian aid. But what reporters too often fail to explain is how big the U.S. economy (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=7&issue_area_id=9) is—more than twice the size of Japan’s, the second largest, and about as big as economies number 3–10 combined. Considered as a portion of the nation’s economy, or of its federal expenditures, the U.S. is actually among the smallest donors of international aid among the world’s developed countries.

The Development Assistance Committee of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development compiles statistics on how much Official Development Assistance the world’s 22 wealthiest countries give each year. The organization’s numbers show that as a portion of Gross National Income (roughly equivalent to GDP), the U.S. now ranks second-to-last in giving, at 0.16 percent. (In 2004, Italy dropped into last place below the U.S.)

The U.S. also gives much less than what the industrialized countries pledged to give at the 1992 Rio Conference, which was 0.7 percent of their GDP. U.S. development aid, at 0.16 percent of GDP, represents less than one-quarter of this promise.

While foreign aid giving is hardly the only issue, domestic or international, on which Americans hold distinctly incorrect beliefs—misperceptions around the circumstances of the Iraq War are another good recent example—the disparity between the public’s perception and the truth in this case is abnormally large. A look at media coverage of U.S. foreign aid giving in the days after the Indian Ocean tsunami disaster of December 26, 2004 helps reveal why Americans might think they’re more generous than they are.