Can someone please clarify: What is the major advantage of getting a canadian match?

[Mike77]

Hey guys,

I've been wanting to ask this question for a while. I know that if you want to match in Canada, you'll get a family rural match IF YOU'RE LUCKY. Yet, to match in the US, is significantly easier. I was told that it is very easy for American doctors to go to Canada with a full license, so how realistic is the possibility of just getting an American match, then moving back?

My life plan would look like this.
1. Get loans sorted out
2. Destroy my USMLE's
3. Match in the US
4. Work in the us for 4-5 years, pay off loans
5. Move to Canada

Is this not realistic?

If this has been covered before, please let me know and avoid flaming me. Thanks for the help in advanced guys!

[cauz]

Hey Mike,

Where have you been reading information about this?? I wouldn't mind having a look at it! Is it just through these forums or do you have some websites? I think I'm in the same boat as you... coming from Canada and wanting to come back home after all is said and done!

thanks
cauz

[CANKID]

Here is a link you guys can read. It is just someone's opinion from the research they have done. Don't take it as if it were written in stone.
http://www.[blocked by request].com/openletter.htm (http://www.%5Bblocked%20by%20request%5D.com/openletter.htm)
insert as one word [caribbean medicine]

[KingMo]

I'm not Canadian nor do I know anything about practicing there.

Your statement:
I was told that it is very easy for American doctors to go to Canada with a full license, so how realistic is the possibility of just getting an American match, then moving back?

From what I hear from my peers, your statement is not realistic at all, and that's precisely the problem. And hence, the big deal about matching in Cananda comes up: you match there, you can practice there. You match in the U.S., and you probably won't be going back to Cananda. Or something to that effect...

[DoctorORG]

Let's put it this way, the chances for you to go back to canada is slim. If you really wanna practice in canada, do something (stay 1 or 2yrs extra in undergrad, get your masters) then reapply to canadian medical schools. Ontario medical schools are the toughest to get into in north america (and we - ontario students - have no priority on getting into medical schools in our province either despite the fact that our undergraduate programs are among the toughest programs yet in the north america).

This is the advice I received from the head of surgery at UofT, do extra yrs in undergrad to bring up your gpa, kill the MCAT and get a MSc in 2yrs, then reapply to a canadian school... you'll get it.

[don1]

i would also suggest additional years of undergrad but not a masters to get into medicine in Ontario. I have a masters and found that schools would position me slightly above undergrads but they never took into consideration the marks (some school might, not sure if it has changed). a masters is great if your undergrad marks are really good; if you have a low average, you need more undergrad courses with a high average.

also, with a masters you stuck for the 2 years, assuming you complete on time. some people do get in and leave their masters before completing, however, this places their supervisor in a difficult situation; most won't want to take you as a student if they believe you are using the masters to better your medical school application.

[Big Baller]

There is a talk going on about USMLE's being accepted or taken equal as Canadian exams and then you would be able to enter Carms by writing the USMLE's. Its still in the pipeline and would not be implemented till 2012.

[Big Baller]

Or you can always live in Windsor or Niagara Falls,ON and travel to work across the border daily. I know tons of physicians who do that.

[covarubious]

Yeah, looks like Ontario is really pushing for that. Fingers crossed ;)

There is a talk going on about USMLE's being accepted or taken equal as Canadian exams and then you would be able to enter Carms by writing the USMLE's. Its still in the pipeline and would not be implemented till 2012.

[Big Baller]

Yeah, looks like Ontario is really pushing for that. Fingers crossed ;)
Although there is rumors that they would accept it but then again i don't see it happening because if you see, for the all the IMG's its easier to do good on USMLE's compared to Canadian exams and making both of these equal would kill Canadian evaluation exams n stuff. But yeah keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best. :)

[covarubious]

Well, they are running out of options. Theres such a shortage of doctors here and not nearly enough spots in med schools right now to ever fill them... IMG's are their only choice... Unless of course they open up 10 new meds schools in the next few months ;)

Although there is rumors that they would accept it but then again i don't see it happening because if you see, for the all the IMG's its easier to do good on USMLE's compared to Canadian exams and making both of these equal would kill Canadian evaluation exams n stuff. But yeah keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best. :)

[Mike77]

Well i've lived in the US and Canada, and I would have no problem with living in certain parts of the US for the rest of my life. Afterall, vancouver has more cultural similarities to washington, orgeon, and california then any other part of canada.

I was just under the impression that it was fairly easy for American doctors to come over. I know a couple british doctors that came over as well (to canada). One was a 50 year old ob-gyn and he said he had absolutly NO problem (this wasa while ago though), while another doctor said he had to write some exams and do some courses (he JUST graduated med school). I dont think anyone can argue the british system is superior to the american (they pump out so many 23 year old doctors, it's scary lol), so i was wondering why this is. I'm going to start a new thread about working in britain after this :).

[Mike77]

I live in Prince George, (northern BC) as well as even further north in BC.There are TONS of doctors from South Africa and India/Pakistan/Bangledesh here. I'm not understanding this: Are medical schools from these countries perceived to be superior to american? If so, that is a HUGE shock to the system.

[covarubious]

Well, unlike us the brits have lots of med schools and you go straight from high school. (it is 2 years longer though) A girl friend of mine is a brit doc. she says its a very competitive job market, way more doctors then jobs.

Well i've lived in the US and Canada, and I would have no problem with living in certain parts of the US for the rest of my life. Afterall, vancouver has more cultural similarities to washington, orgeon, and california then any other part of canada.

I was just under the impression that it was fairly easy for American doctors to come over. I know a couple british doctors that came over as well (to canada). One was a 50 year old ob-gyn and he said he had absolutly NO problem (this wasa while ago though), while another doctor said he had to write some exams and do some courses (he JUST graduated med school). I dont think anyone can argue the british system is superior to the american (they pump out so many 23 year old doctors, it's scary lol), so i was wondering why this is. I'm going to start a new thread about working in britain after this :).

[Big Baller]

I live in Prince George, (northern BC) as well as even further north in BC.There are TONS of doctors from South Africa and India/Pakistan/Bangledesh here. I'm not understanding this: Are medical schools from these countries perceived to be superior to american? If so, that is a HUGE shock to the system.
You are most likely to find physicians from South Asian countries in remote parts of Canada because thats the only way they can enter the field of health care and they are happy to take primary care residencies and stuff. My mom, an IMG has taught medical school students for over 22 years and she is a pathologist but has been unable to find a job in her specialty in Toronto for the past 4 years. So its really hard to get started in Toronto, Vancouver or Calgary (I mean all the Canadian big cities) thats why you can easily spot IMG's in rural areas. South Asian Medical Schools are not as good a US or Canadian Medical School but they are catching up and would probably come closer as the years progress.

[DoctorORG]

You are most likely to find physicians from South Asian countries in remote parts of Canada because thats the only way they can enter the field of health care and they are happy to take primary care residencies and stuff. My mom, an IMG has taught medical school students for over 22 years and she is a pathologist but has been unable to find a job in her specialty in Toronto for the past 4 years. So its really hard to get started in Toronto, Vancouver or Calgary (I mean all the Canadian big cities) thats why you can easily spot IMG's in rural areas. South Asian Medical Schools are not as good a US or Canadian Medical School but they are catching up and would probably come closer as the years progress.


I am not from south asia, but I don't quite agree with you on that!
There are some really good physicians or researchers who got their M.D. from south asia in US (e.g. V.S. Ramachandran). Also, you gotta keep in mind that when you say US and Canada, you are talking about almost a continent! There are obviously good medical schools in this continent, but overall, with the amount of money you invest into medical school, I don't think south asian or european medical schools are worst than American. It just to happen that doctors make really good money in north america and everyone wanna become one (yes, so sad!) so getting your M.D. becomes more competitive day by day. In my home country, only the passionate people would go after medicine as there is not much difference in the amount of income. (although, I believe physicians here don't make that much money either relative to others when you consider all the investment, time and energy you put into it, but that's how the public thinks... OMG he is a physician, he gotta be a billioner!):shock:

[Mike77]

ORG, that's what I figured as well. I can't say I have a huge amount of respect for some (emphasis on the SOME) of the doctors that leave their home country (which often needs physicians more than Canada or the US), to work in the US or Canada to make way more cash. A friend of mine from Spain is about to graduate school, and he was telling me Doctor's there make barely more than a teacher (i mean BARELY).

Doctor's don't get paid as much as a lot of people think when you consider the hours and training involved. They still make WAY more in the US than they should though, I'm sorry! (For example, cardiovascular surgeons make on average over 500k a year. Does anyone REALLY need more than 150k to live a VERY comfortable life?)

Damnit, no more tangents haha.


So basically, it's easy for someone from Saba to score a rural family spot at least.?

[UScandidate]

Q: Does anyone REALLY need more than 150k to live a VERY comfortable life?
A: Probably not, but if if we want to compare professions, how can a professional athlete, that doesn't need any smarts or education, like a lot of them, get paid up to ~$83 million dollars (Tiger) with endorsements or ~$53M without endorsements (Oscar De La Hoya) a year? I personally think that doctors should get paid a lot more. Everyone relies on them to make no mistakes like they are super-humans, have a pile of stress put on them, and have to continue learning for their lifetime. I think performing a heart transplant is worthy of much more money than an overweight, out-of-shape baseball player that can only hit dingers. Of course if doctors could generate as much money with viewership as athletes, then they would likely make as much or more.

[Mike77]

Q: Does anyone REALLY need more than 150k to live a VERY comfortable life?
A: Probably not, but if if we want to compare professions, how can a professional athlete, that doesn't need any smarts or education, like a lot of them, get paid up to ~$83 million dollars (Tiger) with endorsements or ~$53M without endorsements (Oscar De La Hoya) a year? I personally think that doctors should get paid a lot more. Everyone relies on them to make no mistakes like they are super-humans, have a pile of stress put on them, and have to continue learning for their lifetime. I think performing a heart transplant is worthy of much more money than an overweight, out-of-shape baseball player that can only hit dingers. Of course if doctors could generate as much money with viewership as athletes, then they would likely make as much or more.

Well i'm going to have to disagree. Although I agree that proffesional athletes are grossly overpaid-- much more so than doctors-- it doesn't make a doctors salary more appropriate. Using the top athletes in the world as an example just isn't the best argument. Consider all the people that dedicate their lives to a sport,and still fail and are stuck with nothing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's disgusting how much some athletes make, but as long as sports brings in tons of revenue, it wont change. If you ever turned on your TV to watch a hockey, basketball, football game -- let alone buy their gear or go to a game -- you're just part of the problem as well.

HOWEVER, look at that salary of a nurse in the US or Canada. At best, they'll make 20-40% of what a GP does, and they often do much more stressful work (don't forget, nurses tend to do a lot more of the hands on stuff in a hospital). Obviusly it is much less competitive and it takes less training, but it doesn't mean they should make THAT much less. Of course GP salaries aren't that bad at all, but when we look at the top specialist salaraies (cardiovasc surgeory, neurosurgeory, plastic, etc.) I think it's pretty messed up how much they make in the US.

The main problem with this, is that a lot of the people that make it to these residencies are doing it for the high status and cash associated with it, and not necessarily for the best reasons.

I've met lots of doctor's and med students from ALL OVER the world and there seems to be a very strong negative correlation. As potential salaray increases, the 'genuineness' (is that a word?) of the doctor decreases. Some of the most truly authentic people that have a passion for helping their fellow man have come from countries like Spain and the Netherlands where Doctor's make a fraction of a north american doctor. When you have someone that's willing to go to the hardest school out there for 6 years to make a couple thousand dollars more than a teacher, then you have someone that would rather be doing this job than anything else in the world-- regardless of the fact that they often live paycheck to paycheck. (I think that in those countries, the salaries should defenitly be increased)

[covarubious]

I agree that 6 figures are more then enough for me! Its not all about the money. To add to your argument, if you compare the costs of a med school education in places like Spain where the doctors make less, its much lower then countries where the pay is higher. i.e. if you make more you can afford to pay more to get to that point. Unfortunately some of the really talented people who really want to be a doctor just can't afford it.

Well i'm going to have to disagree. Although I agree that proffesional athletes are grossly overpaid-- much more so than doctors-- it doesn't make a doctors salary more appropriate. Using the top athletes in the world as an example just isn't the best argument. Consider all the people that dedicate their lives to a sport,and still fail and are stuck with nothing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's disgusting how much some athletes make, but as long as sports brings in tons of revenue, it wont change. If you ever turned on your TV to watch a hockey, basketball, football game -- let alone buy their gear or go to a game -- you're just part of the problem as well.

HOWEVER, look at that salary of a nurse in the US or Canada. At best, they'll make 20-40% of what a GP does, and they often do much more stressful work (don't forget, nurses tend to do a lot more of the hands on stuff in a hospital). Obviusly it is much less competitive and it takes less training, but it doesn't mean they should make THAT much less. Of course GP salaries aren't that bad at all, but when we look at the top specialist salaraies (cardiovasc surgeory, neurosurgeory, plastic, etc.) I think it's pretty messed up how much they make in the US.

The main problem with this, is that a lot of the people that make it to these residencies are doing it for the high status and cash associated with it, and not necessarily for the best reasons.

I've met lots of doctor's and med students from ALL OVER the world and there seems to be a very strong negative correlation. As potential salaray increases, the 'genuineness' (is that a word?) of the doctor decreases. Some of the most truly authentic people that have a passion for helping their fellow man have come from countries like Spain and the Netherlands where Doctor's make a fraction of a north american doctor. When you have someone that's willing to go to the hardest school out there for 6 years to make a couple thousand dollars more than a teacher, then you have someone that would rather be doing this job than anything else in the world-- regardless of the fact that they often live paycheck to paycheck. (I think that in those countries, the salaries should defenitly be increased)

[Mike77]

I agree that 6 figures are more then enough for me! Its not all about the money. To add to your argument, if you compare the costs of a med school education in places like Spain where the doctors make less, its much lower then countries where the pay is higher. i.e. if you make more you can afford to pay more to get to that point. Unfortunately some of the really talented people who really want to be a doctor just can't afford it.

I agree completely, I think they pay like 500-600 euros a year for school. However, realistically, you can pay off any US med school loan within a few years of living comfortably (unless you're going to the most expensive schools, are frivelous with cash, and work in a lower paying job). I figure that after graduating saba i'll be 200k in debt worse case scenario, and even if I was just a family doctor making 150k a year, I could easily pay that off in 3 years.

[DoctorORG]

Q: Does anyone REALLY need more than 150k to live a VERY comfortable life?
A: Probably not, but if if we want to compare professions, how can a professional athlete, that doesn't need any smarts or education, like a lot of them, get paid up to ~$83 million dollars (Tiger) with endorsements or ~$53M without endorsements (Oscar De La Hoya) a year? I personally think that doctors should get paid a lot more. Everyone relies on them to make no mistakes like they are super-humans, have a pile of stress put on them, and have to continue learning for their lifetime. I think performing a heart transplant is worthy of much more money than an overweight, out-of-shape baseball player that can only hit dingers. Of course if doctors could generate as much money with viewership as athletes, then they would likely make as much or more.


it was interesting that you compared athletes with doctors, but let's not go there haha....

[wolfvgang22]

Heh, currently preparing for the draft...er, I mean, Match next spring. Yeah, there's a few parallels between pro athletes and doctors from a certain point of view.

Don't forget about the interest on student loans when estimating time to pay off debt. And remember that people often buy a house, get married, want to finally get a car that runs decent during residency. So most students end up taking more than 3 years to pay off their debt. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying most don't do it. It's no disaster either way.

[darkmansaad]

neurosurgeons and cardiovascular surgeons are OVERPAID? are you high? anyone that can tinker aroundwith a heart or a BRAIN is no way shape or form underpaid. they gave up the best years of their lives to do grueling med school along with a 5+ year residency (and excelled which means they had almost no social life) and have skills comparable to an athletes when it comes to fine co ordination. except endorsements aernt on the line, lives and peoples neurons are.

[Mike77]

neurosurgeons and cardiovascular surgeons are OVERPAID? are you high? anyone that can tinker aroundwith a heart or a BRAIN is no way shape or form underpaid. they gave up the best years of their lives to do grueling med school along with a 5+ year residency (and excelled which means they had almost no social life) and have skills comparable to an athletes when it comes to fine co ordination. except endorsements aernt on the line, lives and peoples neurons are.


That's a very very good point, and I do agree that there is an incredible amount of responsibility and dedication that comes with that. Of course, i'm arguing that the truly amazing people that do this job day in and day out, don't necessarily need to make 400-700k a year to do their job. If they really did this job for the right reasons, they should be happy with 200-250k (lots of cash to play with)

Of course, to counter my own argument, if doctors salary dropped a lot, then the fields might not be as competitive and they might lose a slight bit of quality (e.g the brighest people might decide to start a business instead :) )

However, what about the nurses that help with the brain surgeory whose jobs are perhaps only slightly less hands on than the doctors? The nurses that literally would make less than 1/6th or 1/7th of the doctors salary?

Perhaps i'm not arguing doctors are overpaid, but that nurses and other health practioners are underpaid. Look at paramedics: They require very little training, but they make VERY low wages.

I'm not taking anything away from the job, but if you look at the global scheme of things, there is really no need for anyone ANYWHERE to make that much money (idealistic, I know). I hope that you guys can understand what i'm trying to say. I am defenitly not saying that doctors shouldn't get paid that much because their job isn't hard enough... Hour for hour, it's probably one of, maybe THEE, hardest job in the world. ESPECIALLY a cardiosurgeon (they tend to get paid the most as well).

[KingMo]

I know nurses that make more than doctors. Incidentally, I also know some PAs who make more than doctors.

Consider liability though...

Throw a $150k/yr nurse in the OR with the $500k/yr surgeon. One thing goes wrong, it's the surgeon's butt on the line. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, it's his career on the line and he has more to lose than anyone.

Throw a $100k/yr PA in the office with a $200k/yr GP. Who's liable?

Throw a $xxk/yr medic in the ER with the ER medicine doc. Something goes wrong prior to or during the transition of patient care...the doc takes the blame for it.

Why are so many OB/GYNs leaving their specialties? Because they don't get paid nearly enough to cover all the lawsuits thrown their way, even when most of them aren't even their fault. Liability has a huge price, and in all fairness, if your career involves risks like these, you should probably be compensated fairly such that you can live off what you make later too.

[covarubious]

I would love to know these nurses who make more then doctors. ;) would be much cheaper then med school. lol
I hear you about litigation though. A friend of mine who just graduated med in Chicago wanted to go into OB/GYN but as a male he would never be able to afford it! lol So he switched to Ophthalmology. works for me, no vagina but i could use a lil vision correction. lol

I know nurses that make more than doctors. Incidentally, I also know some PAs who make more than doctors.

Consider liability though...

Throw a $150k/yr nurse in the OR with the $500k/yr surgeon. One thing goes wrong, it's the surgeon's butt on the line. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, it's his career on the line and he has more to lose than anyone.

Throw a $100k/yr PA in the office with a $200k/yr GP. Who's liable?

Throw a $xxk/yr medic in the ER with the ER medicine doc. Something goes wrong prior to or during the transition of patient care...the doc takes the blame for it.

Why are so many OB/GYNs leaving their specialties? Because they don't get paid nearly enough to cover all the lawsuits thrown their way, even when most of them aren't even their fault. Liability has a huge price, and in all fairness, if your career involves risks like these, you should probably be compensated fairly such that you can live off what you make later too.

[icesage]

I agree completely, I think they pay like 500-600 euros a year for school. However, realistically, you can pay off any US med school loan within a few years of living comfortably (unless you're going to the most expensive schools, are frivelous with cash, and work in a lower paying job). I figure that after graduating saba i'll be 200k in debt worse case scenario, and even if I was just a family doctor making 150k a year, I could easily pay that off in 3 years.

So Mike77 you can pay off 200K in 3 years with a 150K/year salary. That would be 450K total. Let us not forget taxes and lets be reasonable and say it is 40% for taxes per year. That would be 270K you are left with from 3 years working. But then you have managed to pay off the 200K. You are left with 70K. That would be approximately $23.3K/ year to live off. Let us say that you lived in sh*t hole apartment costing $600/month. That would be $7200 per year leaving you with $16,100 to eat, do laundry (cannot go into your practice smelling or your patients will run away then your projected 150K salary would drop and I would have to revise my numbers), buy clothes (decent ones, after all you are a doctor and want to attract new patients and not get fired if you are working in a hospital), bathe everyday (that means you need to pay for water). Oh I forgot something, that's right, interest payments on your 200K. BTW at this point you do not have a wife or a girlfriend even, cuz sometimes you have to celebrate special occasions for girlfriends and wives like birthdays and anniversaries. Man, this is not life, you would kill yourself before the debt was paid in that time frame, that is the only way that debt would be paid unless ofcourse you had a guarantor to screw over upon committing suicide.

wolfvgang22, KingMo and darkmansaad totally agree with you guys. Thank god there is some people here with sense. I end my tirade.

[DoctorORG]

So Mike77 you can pay off 200K in 3 years with a 150K/year salary. That would be 450K total. Let us not forget taxes and lets be reasonable and say it is 40% for taxes per year. That would be 270K you are left with from 3 years working. But then you have managed to pay off the 200K. You are left with 70K. That would be approximately $23.3K/ year to live off. Let us say that you lived in pooh pooh hole apartment costing $600/month. That would be $7200 per year leaving you with $16,100 to eat, do laundry (cannot go into your practice smelling or your patients will run away then your projected 150K salary would drop and I would have to revise my numbers), buy clothes (decent ones, after all you are a doctor and want to attract new patients and not get fired if you are working in a hospital), bathe everyday (that means you need to pay for water). Oh I forgot something, that's right, interest payments on your 200K. BTW at this point you do not have a wife or a girlfriend even, cuz sometimes you have to celebrate special occasions for girlfriends and wives like birthdays and anniversaries. Man, this is not life, you would kill yourself before the debt was paid in that time frame, that is the only way that debt would be paid unless ofcourse you had a guarantor to screw over upon committing suicide.

wolfvgang22, KingMo and darkmansaad totally agree with you guys. Thank god there is some people here with sense. I end my tirade.


haha... very good post.

[wolfvgang22]

Man, I get tired of hearing that we should take less money because we are supposed to be doing this for the right reasons. :roll:

I'm all for altruism, and most of us have done volunteer work or worked as teachers, nurses, emts, and so forth for the good of mankind before now. Physicians earn every penny they get for the most part, and I plan on being one of them.

[Reactant]

I know nurses that make more than doctors. Incidentally, I also know some PAs who make more than doctors.

Consider liability though...

Throw a $150k/yr nurse in the OR with the $500k/yr surgeon. One thing goes wrong, it's the surgeon's butt on the line. Doesn't matter who's fault it is, it's his (surgeon) career on the line and he has more to lose than anyone.


Just to clarify things.
If a doctor makes a drug order for a patient and the nurse come to administer the drug, the nurse has to know every important detail of the drug ie. its 'drug-to-drug' interactions, if it is within normal dosage and if not why, when the onset of the drug happens, side affects and mechanism of action just to name a few.

Say the doctor was absent minded for a moment and ordered a depressed patient Serlain (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) forgetting to check if the patient was taking any Monoamine oxidase inhibitor. The nurse is the last line of defence for finding any drug errors from the pharmacy and doctor.

The nurse should know that if a SSRI drug was taken in conjuction with a MAOI, the patient is at a huge risk for a fatal hypertensive crisis. If the nurse blindly gives 'what the doctor ordered' and something goes wrong, the doctor AND the nurse are both canned. In Ontario, if the nurse is found guilty by the College of Nurses (CNO), then not only will their nursing licence be taken away, but their name will be published on the monthly journal and detailing exactly what they did.

Not so sure what happens to the physician.

Point is, both have a lot to lose. Yes I was in nursing b4 i came to saba :p

[KingMo]

Just to clarify things.

Point is, both have a lot to lose. Yes I was in nursing b4 i came to saba :p

I stand corrected. I should prob post less and study for USMLE more. :rolleyes:

[rokshana]

Not so sure what happens to the physician.

Point is, both have a lot to lose. Yes I was in nursing b4 i came to saba :p


in the US at least, the pt will sue the doctor, not the nurse, because bottom line (as was said before) the responsiblity of pt care will ultimately fall on the doctor (even if the doctor does the right thing and the nurse screws the order)...

both may lose, but the nurse loses only her job, the doctor can lose not only the job, but his house, his business, everything (so have GREAT malpractice insurance!!).

[Mike77]

.... Find me one paramedic that makes 100k a year, lol... I dont know of any nurse that gets even close to 150k a year, but who knows.

I should clarify one thing: Everything I said is based on Canadian knowledge, so unless nurses and paramedics make 3-5x what they make in Canada, those numbers are way off.

Very good point for the malpractice suits, but again, this is another major difference between the US and Canada. I should have said that I was just talking about Canada.

Regarding the loan situation, maybe you're right. Maybe I would pay it off in 4 years. I am sorry that I offended you so much, haha. It sounded like your rant raised your bloodpressure 20 points. Any med student should know that sweating small things like a random person's theory on how long it takes to pay off a med school loans, will probably take 15 years off your life :).

And let me tell you my current monthly budget: Rent & utilities:250, food: 300, entertainment: 150, transportation:200, misc: 100. That;s 1,000 a month, 12k a year. Lets assume I decide to be double my allowance for everything (i know rent/utilities cost more usually) and use VERY conservative estimates. That makes it 24k a year, times 3, its 72k :). I'm not someone that really needs luxaries, and i'm really good at budgeting.

Of course, maybe I decide to throw some cash around and spent 100k instead. Correct my original statement, I'd pay it off in 3 years and 3 months.The 200k included the estimated interest by the way. This assumes I don't have a high maintence girlfriend, or kids, or any major unforseen event (car accident, health problems, etc.)

Random question: Do people generally pay off a bit of their loans during residency?

Why does everyone feel the need to jump down peoples throat in this forum? I've read some threads and just get amazed at how offended people get in this forum. Guys, it's a forum to give people advice on medical school. All that I said was that it's my opinion doctors make too much, an opinion that almost every single person i talk to holds as well. I wouldn't expect the same opinions from future doctors for an obvius bias. Then i threw out a random number for how long it would take to pay off loans. Even if it took me 5 years instead of 3, who cares? I just made the number up on some rough estimates. It might take me 10 years if I really want to live a more comfortable lifestyle, but who really cares? it wasn't the point of the thread at all.

I have seen so many threads go off into tangents because people get offended. I think everyone should take an introductory psychology course and learn the consequences of a type A personality :p . Is it just me that really doesn't care what people think about how long it takes to repay loans, or how much people think doctors should make? Please people, there seems to be way too much hostility for a forum that's supposed to be about advice.

[covarubious]

SSSSSSSSSSNAP! lol Dude, took the words right out of my mouth! I was going to write the same thing but then figured screw it, no point getting into a flame war. Its soo disapointing though when you come on a forum of people whos career it is to help others in an environment designed to support one another and get met with contact personal attacks and bitterness. Can't we all just join hands, sing a lil hippie music and get along? ;) but it is the internet and you will always have those small bitter people hiding behind their computers who have no other way to feel better about them selves but to attact others.
btw where you livin that you only pay $200 for rent and untilities!! Damn! lol As for residency, yeah, same question. We do get a lil cash then right so wouldn't you start paying off the massive crushing debt then? also, not sure how it works in the states but here in the big white north is you spend a year or two in an underserved area (which is almost everywhere in Ontario lol) you get bonus pay...

.... Find me one paramedic that makes 100k a year, lol... I dont know of any nurse that gets even close to 150k a year, but who knows.

I should clarify one thing: Everything I said is based on Canadian knowledge, so unless nurses and paramedics make 3-5x what they make in Canada, those numbers are way off.

Very good point for the malpractice suits, but again, this is another major difference between the US and Canada. I should have said that I was just talking about Canada.

Regarding the loan situation, maybe you're right. Maybe I would pay it off in 4 years. I am sorry that I offended you so much, haha. It sounded like your rant raised your bloodpressure 20 points. Any med student should know that sweating small things like a random person's theory on how long it takes to pay off a med school loans, will probably take 15 years off your life :).

And let me tell you my current monthly budget: Rent & utilities:250, food: 300, entertainment: 150, transportation:200, misc: 100. That;s 1,000 a month, 12k a year. Lets assume I decide to be double my allowance for everything (i know rent/utilities cost more usually) and use VERY conservative estimates. That makes it 24k a year, times 3, its 72k :). I'm not someone that really needs luxaries, and i'm really good at budgeting.

Of course, maybe I decide to throw some cash around and spent 100k instead. Correct my original statement, I'd pay it off in 3 years and 3 months.The 200k included the estimated interest by the way. This assumes I don't have a high maintence girlfriend, or kids, or any major unforseen event (car accident, health problems, etc.)

Random question: Do people generally pay off a bit of their loans during residency?

Why does everyone feel the need to jump down peoples throat in this forum? I've read some threads and just get amazed at how offended people get in this forum. Guys, it's a forum to give people advice on medical school. All that I said was that it's my opinion doctors make too much, an opinion that almost every single person i talk to holds as well. I wouldn't expect the same opinions from future doctors for an obvius bias. Then i threw out a random number for how long it would take to pay off loans. Even if it took me 5 years instead of 3, who cares? I just made the number up on some rough estimates. It might take me 10 years if I really want to live a more comfortable lifestyle, but who really cares? it wasn't the point of the thread at all.

I have seen so many threads go off into tangents because people get offended. I think everyone should take an introductory psychology course and learn the consequences of a type A personality :p . Is it just me that really doesn't care what people think about how long it takes to repay loans, or how much people think doctors should make? Please people, there seems to be way too much hostility for a forum that's supposed to be about advice.

[Boulderunner]

....
Regarding the loan situation, maybe you're right. Maybe I would pay it off in 4 years. I am sorry that I offended you so much, haha. It sounded like your rant raised your bloodpressure 20 points. Any med student should know that sweating small things like a random person's theory on how long it takes to pay off a med school loans, will probably take 15 years off your life :).

And let me tell you my current monthly budget: Rent & utilities:250, food: 300, entertainment: 150, transportation:200, misc: 100. That;s 1,000 a month, 12k a year. Lets assume I decide to be double my allowance for everything (i know rent/utilities cost more usually) and use VERY conservative estimates. That makes it 24k a year, times 3, its 72k :). I'm not someone that really needs luxaries, and i'm really good at budgeting.

Of course, maybe I decide to throw some cash around and spent 100k instead. Correct my original statement, I'd pay it off in 3 years and 3 months.The 200k included the estimated interest by the way. This assumes I don't have a high maintence girlfriend, or kids, or any major unforseen event (car accident, health problems, etc.)

Random question: Do people generally pay off a bit of their loans during residency?



yeah before i started med school i lived in the back of my toyota truck for a while and slept on friends couches .I spent very little and was happy with that. But there is something about being a professional that seems to suck up money. You have to have nice clothes. you have to have a reliable car. I no longer have time to fix my car myself or even do laundry on my own (you actually dont have the option of doing your own laundry on saba anyhow). You find yourself eating out more, and generally spending money on things that afford you more time becuase it makes life easier. Youd be surprised how much money it costs to have a job that pays well.... and in most residencies you make between thirty and fifty thousand a year. before taxes. So maybe you could pay some of the interest so that the balance doesnt skyrocket but wouldnt count on it.

[covarubious]

General rule of thumb, the more you make the more you spend ;)

yeah before i started med school i lived in the back of my toyota truck for a while and slept on friends couches .I spent very little and was happy with that. But there is something about being a professional that seems to suck up money. You have to have nice clothes. you have to have a reliable car. I no longer have time to fix my car myself or even do laundry on my own (you actually dont have the option of doing your own laundry on saba anyhow). You find yourself eating out more, and generally spending money on things that afford you more time becuase it makes life easier. Youd be surprised how much money it costs to have a job that pays well.... and in most residencies you make between thirty and fifty thousand a year. before taxes. So maybe you could pay some of the interest so that the balance doesnt skyrocket but wouldnt count on it.

[rokshana]

yeah, i wanna know where rent AND utilities cost only 250/month- you can't rent a parking spot in NYC for that!

[covarubious]

hes canadian ;) our igloos come cheap and pretty well insolated!

yeah, i wanna know where rent AND utilities cost only 250/month- you can't rent a parking spot in NYC for that!

[CrazyDiamond]

There's no "right" or "wrong" about how much a person gets paid in a free market economy. There is a greater demand for doctor's services than there is for many other professions. Of course, it makes sense. To become a doctor requires a huge amount of a commitment, the acquisition of a monumental amount of knowledge and skills and a great deal of sacrifice. The job also comes with a MASSIVE amount of responsibility. If any one could be a doctor, doctors wouldn't be paid as highly as they do.

As for pro athletes, it's not easy to be one. There are literally millions of people that play basketball, football, baseball etc. Only a tiny fraction of these people have what it takes to play pro sports. Don't blame the athletes for being so highly paid, blame society at large for valuing sports so much. I'll bet that just about every single poster on these forums has enjoyed at least a game or two of some pro sport or the other on TV. Tiger or Oscar De La Hoya wouldn't be making so much money if so many people didn't want their services.

[Mike77]

Yea, that's completely true about the free market econemy, but it doesn't make it any more right. We could say the same about the owners of these multibillion dollar corporations.

For your athlete comment, i think i said the exact same thing. It's largely due to the fact that we make it a billion dollar industry.


There's no "right" or "wrong" about how much a person gets paid in a free market economy. There is a greater demand for doctor's services than there is for many other professions. Of course, it makes sense. To become a doctor requires a huge amount of a commitment, the acquisition of a monumental amount of knowledge and skills and a great deal of sacrifice. The job also comes with a MASSIVE amount of responsibility. If any one could be a doctor, doctors wouldn't be paid as highly as they do.

As for pro athletes, it's not easy to be one. There are literally millions of people that play basketball, football, baseball etc. Only a tiny fraction of these people have what it takes to play pro sports. Don't blame the athletes for being so highly paid, blame society at large for valuing sports so much. I'll bet that just about every single poster on these forums has enjoyed at least a game or two of some pro sport or the other on TV. Tiger or Oscar De La Hoya wouldn't be making so much money if so many people didn't want their services.


I also agree that I would probably spend a lot more if i'm making WAAAAAAAY more cash than normal. I also would probably make more than 150k a year since i want to specialize, but who knows.

I lived in prince george, bc, canada to get rent that cheap. Do a google for a 3 bedroom apartment in PG and divide it by 3, you'd be suprised :p.

[cavalletti]

,

I know that if you want to match in Canada, you'll get a family rural match IF YOU'RE LUCKY.


I don't know if that is a fair statement anymore. A representative from CARMS (Canadian match) visited SGU this year. She said that if you apply for FA you will match and not necessarily in the Yukon. She remarked that residencies will be more and more easier to obtain.

Check out the SGU match list. They had some great specialty matches in Canada this year (ie. radonc at U of T).

[Mike77]

heh, i posted that before i saw the match results for 2008. I wrote about this in another thread.

[cavalletti]

heh, i posted that before i saw the match results for 2008. I wrote about this in another thread.

OK, all the best from a fellow Canadian. :cool:

[CaptainInsaneO]

Considering thst positive track record for Saba and SGU in the last 2-3 years, it looks like more spots are going to be available for Canadians in Canada from the Caribbean.

It is about taking the right exams and showing the right people that you're worthy.

Plus, it would make it so much easier to avoid all US Visa issues for residency.

[Mike77]

Considering thst positive track record for Saba and SGU in the last 2-3 years, it looks like more spots are going to be available for Canadians in Canada from the Caribbean.

It is about taking the right exams and showing the right people that you're worthy.

Plus, it would make it so much easier to avoid all US Visa issues for residency.

Just out of curiusity, what kind of visa issues do canadians have fo residencies? I was told by saba admin that they never have any problems. Plus, I lived in NJ for 5 years wheni was younger... I wonder if that'll help?

[DoctorORG]

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[CaptainInsaneO]

Just out of curiusity, what kind of visa issues do canadians have fo residencies? I was told by saba admin that they never have any problems. Plus, I lived in NJ for 5 years wheni was younger... I wonder if that'll help?


Canadians have to choose either the J1 visa or the H1B visa for residency in the US. The J1 is easier to get but you have to leave the US for 2 years after residency (or apply for a J1 waiver in an area in an under-served area in primary care for a minimum of 3 years to stay).

The H1B is harder to get b/c the hospital has to put money and time into the application and you have to have Step 3 passed by the time you start residency. In many instances, one year is burned to get through this process, although it is possible if you do all of the legwork beforehand

Unless you have a greencard, you need the visas.

[Mike77]

you know, I am not even going to bother to think about how I need to PROVE myself to canadians anymore, but they need to prove themselves to me and give me good reason why I should not leave Canada and not practice in US? it's not like canada is any better than US, or they are more polite or more honest than americans... all I've learnt about canadian system is that they give you LIES (im telling you lies after lies) and expect you to strive yourself and prove yourself to them....

it's the time for me to say "who are you anyways?" All the doctors I have met and worked for in canada (except one) are snobby people who think 100K / year is too much money (yes, it is too much money for canadians)... I am gonna live my life in US, will enjoy the nice weather, will pay less tax, will pay almost 2/3 for the gas, and will have more opportunities to become what I have always wanted to become, and make more money for my family... so HECK with canadians and their dishonest and snobby system.... you want me, convince me to come back to my country. period.

to add another point: all of my fellow undergrad friends who have the dream to be a doctor always talk about money first. I dont know ONE single person in undergrad who is going after medicine for passion. They all talk about money all the time. My prof is proud that he makes $180k / year and has the highest budget in the biochem department. He talks about his salary in the lecture. Hell, this is soo not my place!

for the bolded comment, hahaahha AMEN! I felt the EXACT same way! I'd much rather work in cali, oregon, or washington, the any other part of canada (except maybe british columbia).

For your last paragraph, i obviusly disagree :p . I still think you need a passion to do this job right, because people that do it for the money are probably much more likely to burn out. I, if nothing else, pity their patients. Also, you can't realy tell me medicine is the best way to make money. If you're smart enough to go through med school, you're probably smart enough to start a business, etc.

Also, a 180k PROF?!?!?!?!? That is AMAZING, my god. I'd be proud of that if I was a prof. What does he do? Publish 3 articles a day? lol.

[Mike77]

Canadians have to choose either the J1 visa or the H1B visa for residency in the US. The J1 is easier to get but you have to leave the US for 2 years after residency (or apply for a J1 waiver in an area in an under-served area in primary care for a minimum of 3 years to stay).

The H1B is harder to get b/c the hospital has to put money and time into the application and you have to have Step 3 passed by the time you start residency. In many instances, one year is burned to get through this process, although it is possible if you do all of the legwork beforehand

Unless you have a greencard, you need the visas.


Awesome response! Thanks for the info. Couldn't you get a J1 visa, and then apply for a H1B during this 2 year period?

At the very least in that 2 year period you can just go to a real pretentius area of the US (southern cali?) and find a nice golddigger. Give them a review of your future salaray and you'll get more proposals then a..... real estate agent? (It's all I could think of, :) )

[DoctorORG]

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[Mike77]

trust me, this is how it works in toronto... I havent met one single person being passionate about medicine itself than their future income. Same goes with dentistry. I often go to parties where recently accepted dental students attend and you shoul see how their behaviour change and all of a sudden they buy louis vutton purse and lease a mercedes and think they are the goddesses of the world now that they have secure incomes in the future... compare this to the people at UCLA where I visited last summer... there is just no way to compare the two, just no way.
so to clarify, you think the med/dental students in canada care more about the cash?

[CaptainInsaneO]

Awesome response! Thanks for the info. Couldn't you get a J1 visa, and then apply for a H1B during this 2 year period?

At the very least in that 2 year period you can just go to a real pretentius area of the US (southern cali?) and find a nice golddigger. Give them a review of your future salaray and you'll get more proposals then a..... real estate agent? (It's all I could think of, :) )


You are specifically prohibited from switching to a H1B or to even gain residency via marriage with a J1 visa.

LOL...yeah, you better find some money during those 2 years b/c your loans are due and you cannot practice in the US or Canada without a license.

[Mike77]

You are specifically prohibited from switching to a H1B or to even gain residency via marriage with a J1 visa.

LOL...yeah, you better find some money during those 2 years b/c your loans are due and you cannot practice in the US or Canada without a license.
Well i'm assuming after you're done your residency you have a license? Why on earth would anyone apply for a J1 visa then? Also, who even decides if you get a H1B visa? As in, what would I need?

[Mike77]

sorry, i misread your post. you have to leave the US for two years AFTER your residency, and then you can come back? Now I am very confused.

[covarubious]

erased....

[covarubious]

lol me too! please more info on visa issues! ;)

sorry, i misread your post. you have to leave the US for two years AFTER your residency, and then you can come back? Now I am very confused.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Under a J1 Visa, you finish your residency and then are kicked out of the US for 2 years. You do not have a license during residency because you do not need one as a resident since you are still being supervised.

Usually, you apply for a license in the state of choice during residency, but you cannot as a j1 Visa holder. Hence, the preference for the H1B visa which leads to permanent residency.

[covarubious]

hmm is there no way arround this 2 year exile? ;) anything the school can do to help?

Under a J1 Visa, you finish your residency and then are kicked out of the US for 2 years. You do not have a license during residency because you do not need one as a resident since you are still being supervised.

Usually, you apply for a license in the state of choice during residency, but you cannot as a j1 Visa holder. Hence, the preference for the H1B visa which leads to permanent residency.

[DoctorORG]

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[covarubious]

erased....

[DoctorORG]

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[Mike77]

yeah yeah... there is more snow in NYC and central america than toronto lol... i can't believe how easily you can lie.. but its ok... you can live here with all the snow and the freezing rain and the crazy winds and the sunshine! you can have it all :D

also, try to avoid 'ad hominem' since it's just bad for someone who is planning to go to medical school to be that immature that would attack the arguer personally (calling them bitter) instead of attacking their arguement.... if you have valid reasons to invalidate my argument, you're more than welcome to bring them up, otherwise you may very well shut up and stop attacking ppl personally here.

regarding the weather, I can say one thing. I have lived in NJ and in the vancouver/victoria area for a VERY long time. There was much much more snow in NJ then in vancouver and victoria (canada). :)

All in all, 90% of canadians experience the same weather as like 30-40% of americans, because almost all canadians live right on the US border (look at a map of every major city in Canada -- except edmonton).

I don't think he was trying to be personal, but if it came off that way, i dont think telling him to shut up will be any better. I personally won't even deny it; i AM bitter about the canadian system! :)

Now, if you guys don't mind, I need to do some maintanence on my igloo as we are having an unusually warm summer. My dog sled broke down yesterday as well, so I might have to walk to do my fur trading today. Not only that, but the damn maple trees are all tapped out in my area! Jeez

[CaptainInsaneO]

The visa was not meant for Canadians. It was meant to train foreign doctors to go back and benefit their societies, hence the 2 year-rule.

Canadians are just using it to scam their way in...just like Tim Horton's in the northern states.:)

hmm is there no way arround this 2 year exile? ;) anything the school can do to help?

[covarubious]

erased....

[Mike77]

The visa was not meant for Canadians. It was meant to train foreign doctors to go back and benefit their societies, hence the 2 year-rule.

Canadians are just using it to scam their way in...just like Tim Horton's in the northern states.:)


Two things: So I assume that it's not overly difficult for a canadian to get the harder visa? And they have Tim Horton's in the US now? You guys won't appreciate it like we do. Go eat your dunkin donuts *barf* :) .

[covarubious]

Tim Hortons?????????? its our revenge for the scurge that is Starbucks! lol

The visa was not meant for Canadians. It was meant to train foreign doctors to go back and benefit their societies, hence the 2 year-rule.

Canadians are just using it to scam their way in...just like Tim Horton's in the northern states.:)

[CaptainInsaneO]

It mainly depends on two factors:

1. Your attractivness as an applicant (i.e. scores, personality and interview)

2. The need for your presence at the program (i.e. rural/underserved area, undesireable program, or community program).

The more impressive you are as an applicant, the better your chances are of the H1B since if all things are equal b/w you and a US-resident candidate, the US canidate will always win b/c of the lack of paperwork invloved.

Timmies = liquid crack

Two things: So I assume that it's not overly difficult for a canadian to get the harder visa? And they have Tim Horton's in the US now? You guys won't appreciate it like we do. Go eat your dunkin donuts *barf* :) .

[covarubious]

erased....

[covarubious]

WOw, more great info... do u know anybody in imigration? lol has anybody on here been through this process who wants to post their person experinces?
btw should i now admite my secret shame? i hate coffee lol

It mainly depends on two factors:

1. Your attractivness as an applicant (i.e. scores, personality and interview)

2. The need for your presence at the program (i.e. rural/underserved area, undesireable program, or community program).

The more impressive you are as an applicant, the better your chances are of the H1B since if all things are equal b/w you and a US-resident candidate, the US canidate will always win b/c of the lack of paperwork invloved.

Timmies = liquid crack

[Mike77]

It mainly depends on two factors:

1. Your attractivness as an applicant (i.e. scores, personality and interview)

2. The need for your presence at the program (i.e. rural/underserved area, undesireable program, or community program).

The more impressive you are as an applicant, the better your chances are of the H1B since if all things are equal b/w you and a US-resident candidate, the US canidate will always win b/c of the lack of paperwork invloved.

Timmies = liquid crack

1. Well when exactly do you apply for this visa? Right after finishing your rotations/graduation? Wouldn't you need a visa for your clinical rotations? (I assume when you say scores, you mean USMLE?)

2. Damn right it's addictive. I love it. I hope Saba builds one to accomodate the canadian students. If not, I will bring at least 3-4 cans of their coffee with me (even though they always seem to make it better).

[covarubious]

hmmm maybe i'll add this to my business plan! selling pdf books and timmy's liquid crack ;)

1. Well when exactly do you apply for this visa? Right after finishing your rotations/graduation? Wouldn't you need a visa for your clinical rotations? (I assume when you say scores, you mean USMLE?)

2. Damn right it's addictive. I love it. I hope Saba builds one to accomodate the canadian students. If not, I will bring at least 3-4 cans of their coffee with me (even though they always seem to make it better).

[covarubious]

BTW this seems like a really good topic to bring up during the next SABA online chat on the 6th.... I am hopfully going to Chicago for a friends med school grad that day so might miss it but we'll see ;) I also wanna get some info on the new SABA financial ***. package of the 20th...

[Boulderunner]

hmmm maybe i'll add this to my business plan! selling pdf books and timmy's liquid crack ;)

You guys do realize that tim hortons is owned by wendys right? and the quality of the coffee is about on par with wendys coffee too. All the canadians here on saba said so much great stuff i was so eager to try their famous double double. when i had it i was aghast to find that it was basically bad gas station coffee that i couldnt even be certain was arabica bean. Not to offend anyone just my personal opinion.

[covarubious]

I hate all coffee so I can't comment one way or the other. lol I do enjoy their frosted ciniman buns though. yummy. lol nothing compared to the sinful Cinibun though ;)

You guys do realize that tim hortons is owned by wendys right? and the quality of the coffee is about on par with wendys coffee too. All the canadians here on saba said so much great stuff i was so eager to try their famous double double. when i had it i was aghast to find that it was basically bad gas station coffee that i couldnt even be certain was arabica bean. Not to offend anyone just my personal opinion.

[chartero]

You guys do realize that tim hortons is owned by wendys right?

(Was. They spun it back off and its on its own, though they're often still co-branded in joint locations.)

[DoctorORG]

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[covarubious]

erased....

[rokshana]

You do not have a license during residency because you do not need one as a resident since you are still being supervised.


actually you DO need a license as a resident, but its a training license and easier to get than a full, unrestricted license to practice medicine.

[covarubious]

you seem to be in know, is there no way to avoid the 2 year leaving thing in order for a canadian to work as a doc in the US?

actually you DO need a license as a resident, but its a training license and easier to get than a full, unrestricted license to practice medicine.

[CaptainInsaneO]

actually you DO need a license as a resident, but its a training license and easier to get than a full, unrestricted license to practice medicine.

It is a technicality, not a license, per se. If it doesn't count outside of the residency program, it is hardly a license.

[Mike77]

I can't believe we are arguing about the weather. And yea, toronto is on average colder, but it also has much lower humidity, so the temperature feels the same (if not warmer). I can tell you for a fact that Victoria
is without question better than NY for weather, minus the rain everyday. I think what he's trying to say is that not all of Canada is -40 all the time, and that the weather in the major cities is very similar to the northern states/north eastern & north western seaboard. I have been all over Canada and the US, and have lived in both countries,so i've got a really good idea. Our weather in vic is identical to seattle (although I wouldn't expect americans to know anything about canadian geography), which is known to be a very temperate place to live year round. Cities that aren't near the great lakes or the Coast (saskatoon, calgary, etc.) are a bit colder/more snow than the northern states, that's for sure.


Another post filled with personal attacks... by you. lol funny how everything u accuse me of you seem to be doing...
to quote you " yeah yeah... there is more snow in NYC and central america than toronto lol... i can't believe how easily you can lie.." Did i ever say anything about Canada? of course not... obviously canada is colder then the us but i was speaking specifically of Toronto, as did you in your response about Toronto/New York and snow where you were clearly wrong. Yes, Toronto is colder then new york... by a whopping average of 5 degrees on average? of course i know all about lake effect and precip which is why i know full well that new york has more snow then toronto... They feel the effects more then we do.
yes, arguing with you is pretty pointless since you keep trying to twist the things said to make yourself look right when everything is all here on the forum for anybody to read... you really seem like a bitter angry person... not a personal attack, just an observation based on what you have posted and your responses to me... btw i have been quiet unemotional and even tempered while supporting my statements with data and comments by a fellow Canadian, namely mike.


Regarding the visa's, I think the saba chat would be our best info source. Unless anyone has more info?

[rokshana]

you seem to be in know, is there no way to avoid the 2 year leaving thing in order for a canadian to work as a doc in the US?


sorry! not canadian, so my knowledge of the visa requirements is limited and other than the waiver, don't know a way out of that requirement. though you would be surprised a what areas are considered underserved in the US...

my in the know, comes from the fact that I had to apply for a training license for my residency and my friends have had to apply for one as well (some states are easier than other, but i really don't think anyone gets denied it).

[DoctorORG]

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[rokshana]

It is a technicality, not a license, per se. If it doesn't count outside of the residency program, it is hardly a license.

yes, but if you don't have it, you can't do your residency, so its a big technicality....

and some states, the application is HUGE!! Pa.'s is 39 pages!!! (luckily for me Ga.'s is only 3!!!).

[Mike77]

it is good when you try to make a general statement, you dont sacrifice the majority of the facts for the minority. In other words, you count the hits but not the misses. There is only BC that has descent weather in Canada so you can't say BC represents the whole Canada. The majority of canada has the worst coldest weather in north america, and please don't try to deny this fact. If you haven't lived in nova scotia and toronto, then I have. I also have lived in buffalo. Anyways,
My point is why should I (as IMG) go through hell and to be able to practice in a region where the weather is the worst in the region, the taxes are wayy higher, everything is more expensive (including cars, food, gas, alcohol), and the salary would be less? I do understand that some people want to live with their family and stuff, but other than that, what is the major advantage of getting a residency in canada and being able to practice in canada? Ontario is the only state that gives no priority on its students for entering medical school, so when they don't give a **** about me, why should I give a **** about them? I would appreciate any logical reasoning.

I think the process should be backwards, they should provide us more opportunity to go back to our country as they need more physicians in most of the rural regions in canada. But what they do is they use reverse psychology. They say it is very challenging to be able to work in Canada, and for some reason, canadians like to challenge themselves (I am one of them too). They always want to choose the most difficult way out, thinking it is the best way to choose. If they say it is no bigy to work in canada, then im sure most of the people who are considering going back to canada would think twice about it. and please don't tell me that canadian health care system is better than US or we have better doctors here... the quality of american doctors are the same as canadian if not better.


Yea, i've adopted the same attitude about Canada as well. I still don't know how so many East Indian and South African doctors work in Canada (I guess only the rural regions). If I was from Ontario, I would be pissed too! Even the Canadian forces require you go to a Canadian med school (okay, I can see them denying a Caribean school, but what about american schools or US residencies??).

There is one VERY significant advantage of working in Canada--something almost everyone forgets. Malpractice suites. Insurance is so high in the US that it makes the salary difference marginal at best. And i disagree entirely, the canadian medical system is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the US medical system, but that applies to the patients perspective. Have fun in the US if you need a bypass surgeory-- they'll let you die without an HMO or med insurance. The quality of MDS would be very similar between the two countries, with maybe a marginal edge for Canadian doctors due to higher med school requiraments?

[covarubious]

39 pages!! can i pay somebody to fill it out for me? lol

yes, but if you don't have it, you can't do your residency, so its a big technicality....

and some states, the application is HUGE!! Pa.'s is 39 pages!!! (luckily for me Ga.'s is only 3!!!).

[covarubious]

I know Ontario is making changes to get requirements down and make things easier of IMG's to practice here and there has been talk of getting rid of the exam they make img's write if you are licensed in the states... who knows lol but fingers crossed it happens before i'm done? fantasy, probably. lol
yes, thank god for canadians who have yet to discover the law suit. it would be hell to be watching your back all the time in such a litigious society.

Yea, i've adopted the same attitude about Canada as well. I still don't know how so many East Indian and South African doctors work in Canada (I guess only the rural regions). If I was from Ontario, I would be pissed too! Even the Canadian forces require you go to a Canadian med school (okay, I can see them denying a Caribean school, but what about american schools or US residencies??).

There is one VERY significant advantage of working in Canada--something almost everyone forgets. Malpractice suites. Insurance is so high in the US that it makes the salary difference marginal at best. And i disagree entirely, the canadian medical system is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the US medical system, but that applies to the patients perspective. Have fun in the US if you need a bypass surgeory-- they'll let you die without an HMO or med insurance. The quality of MDS would be very similar between the two countries, with maybe a marginal edge for Canadian doctors due to higher med school requiraments?

[DoctorORG]

deleted...

[CaptainInsaneO]

Scores = USLMLE and almost as importat are your letters of recommendation from your clinical supervisors.

You have to make sure the programs you apply to offer these visas and that they know that you need a visa. Otherwise you might be wasting your time and money by interviewing somewhere that does not want to sponsor the H1B visa.

You apply soon after finishing your cores (3rd year), I believe.


The visa for your clinical rotations will be a B1 and it is not a problem and costs $6 at the border. Unless, of course, you have had problems at the border before.


The can is not the same. The real stuff is at the Timmy's itself.

1. Well when exactly do you apply for this visa? Right after finishing your rotations/graduation? Wouldn't you need a visa for your clinical rotations? (I assume when you say scores, you mean USMLE?)

2. Damn right it's addictive. I love it. I hope Saba builds one to accomodate the canadian students. If not, I will bring at least 3-4 cans of their coffee with me (even though they always seem to make it better).

[CaptainInsaneO]

Yes, like I said in another post, you can stay if you apply for th J1 waiver program and work in an uderserved or rural area for 3 years in a primary care specialty.

Then you can go on to a H1B after the 3 years and get a greencard.

you seem to be in know, is there no way to avoid the 2 year leaving thing in order for a canadian to work as a doc in the US?

[covarubious]

which means I will have to become an american citizen? :'( no offence ;)

Yes, like I said in another post, you can stay if you apply for th J1 waiver program and work in an uderserved or rural area for 3 years in a primary care specialty.

Then you can go on to a H1B after the 3 years and get a greencard.

[NYladoo]

which means I will have to become an american citizen? :'( no offence ;)

Green card= Legal permanent residence in US. Having a green card for a certain number of years will make you eligible for US citizenship, eligible, not a citizen automatically.

[covarubious]

Sweet, thanks for the clarification. ;)

Green card= Legal permanent residence in US. Having a green card for a certain number of years will make you eligible for US citizenship, eligible, not a citizen automatically.

[Mike77]

Green card= Legal permanent residence in US. Having a green card for a certain number of years will make you eligible for US citizenship, eligible, not a citizen automatically.


I believe it is 5 years, if i am correct. I've got dual canadian/uk.... No way in HELL i'd give that up for just american (which doesn't allow dual citizenship).

[CaptainInsaneO]

I believe it is 5 years, if i am correct. I've got dual canadian/uk.... No way in HELL i'd give that up for just american (which doesn't allow dual citizenship).

It sort of does, but you just can't go around flaunting it. There are lots of dual and triple citizens, but they carry one active passport at a time.

[covarubious]

I still haven't been to the UK yet but am hoping sooner rather then later. yeah, I will never give up my canadian citizenship... I am far to liberal to survive in the US without constantly protesting something or other lol

I believe it is 5 years, if i am correct. I've got dual canadian/uk.... No way in HELL i'd give that up for just american (which doesn't allow dual citizenship).

[Mike77]

I still haven't been to the UK yet but am hoping sooner rather then later. yeah, I will never give up my canadian citizenship... I am far to liberal to survive in the US without constantly protesting something or other lol

heh, you need to travel throughout the US. I'm not even joking when I say that they should divide the us and canada into thirds. West coast, central, and east coast (including ontario). With 3 countries organized that way, there would be way less conflict ;) .

The western US (california, oregon, washington) is more liberal than alberta, saskatchewan, manitoba, and maybe even ontario. It's a different country down there, i swear.

[covarubious]

lol i have been around a lil bit, New York, Jersey, Buffalo, Phili, Pens, Texas... but hell yeah, must be all that flat land and oil in central Canada that makes em crazy conservatives. A few friends have been to New Orleans,, i would soo love to visit. Looks beautiful and fascinating.

heh, you need to travel throughout the US. I'm not even joking when I say that they should divide the us and canada into thirds. West coast, central, and east coast (including ontario). With 3 countries organized that way, there would be way less conflict ;) .

The western US (california, oregon, washington) is more liberal than alberta, saskatchewan, manitoba, and maybe even ontario. It's a different country down there, i swear.

[chartero]

It sort of does, but you just can't go around flaunting it. There are lots of dual and triple citizens, but they carry one active passport at a time.

The U.S. absolutely allows dual citizenship and very definitely allows multiple active passports. I have one Canadian and one American parent, and proudly and loyally hold both citizenships and passports; this sometimes comes up when I cross the U.S./Canadian border, and I am entirely open about it and it poses no problem. Says the U.S. State Department: "Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship." U.S. State Department: Dual Nationality (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html).

[covarubious]

wow, then the no dual urban legend is one that just won't die. everybody I know thinks that... Of course there have been many a famous person who has been dual... Think of the lovely and talented Pam Anderson ;)

The U.S. absolutely allows dual citizenship and very definitely allows multiple active passports. I have one Canadian and one American parent, and proudly and loyally hold both citizenships and passports; this sometimes comes up when I cross the U.S./Canadian border, and I am entirely open about it and it poses no problem. Says the U.S. State Department: "Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship." U.S. State Department: Dual Nationality (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html).

[Mike77]

wow, then the no dual urban legend is one that just won't die. everybody I know thinks that... Of course there have been many a famous person who has been dual... Think of the lovely and talented Pam Anderson ;)

I stand very corrected. I remember being told that when I lived in the US. Sorry.

[covarubious]

yeah, u better be punk. lol i wasn't sure about it either because its all you hear.

I stand very corrected. I remember being told that when I lived in the US. Sorry.

[Reactant]

in the US at least, the pt will sue the doctor, not the nurse, because bottom line (as was said before) the responsiblity of pt care will ultimately fall on the doctor (even if the doctor does the right thing and the nurse screws the order)...


No...the care and responsibility of the patient relies on the health care team, regardless who has the bigger wallet. Tell me one nurse or surgical technician , mlt who will tell you that they dont hold responsibility for the patient care.

[Reactant]

wow, my response is soo late that its completely irrelevant to the current topic. my bad.

[popo11]

the best way is to give an admissions director at a canadian school a bribe...100 loonies should do it

[covarubious]

100 crazy med students? ;)

the best way is to give an admissions director at a canadian school a bribe...100 loonies should do it