KMC recommended for de-accreditation by Medical Council of India

[zarkosy]

For anyone one this forum who doesnt already know: Kasturba Medical college in India has been on the Medical Council of India's "recommended for de-accreditation" list since 2004. As a consequence their last batch of graduates to be eligible to take USMLE exams was those who graduated from KMC in 2003.

You can verify these facts with ECFMG and a simple google search. It is surprising as Manipal is a TOP notch university in India...so must be some internal politics or money matters...

[Sree Cheruku]

As a consequence their last batch of graduates to be eligible to take USMLE exams was those who graduated from KMC in 2003. 1. If this were true, it has absolutely no impact on AUA students or the twinning program since we use AUA's ECFMG code.
2. It's not true. See links below.

The Hindu : Karnataka News : Kasturba Medical College not derecognised: MAHE V-C (http://www.hindu.com/2005/03/15/stories/2005031502550500.htm)

IMED - FAIMER International Medical Education Directory - School Details (http://imed.ecfmg.org/details.asp?country=495&school=&currpage=4&cname=INDIA&city=&region=AS&rname=Asia&mcode=495530&psize=25)

Before you post stating that these students are ineligible to take the USMLE, why not check with ECFMG first?

[Scott1981]

plus, new york lists the school as an approved foreign medical institution.

[coolaid]

For anyone one this forum who doesnt already know: Kasturba Medical college in India has been on the Medical Council of India's "recommended for de-accreditation" list since 2004. As a consequence their last batch of graduates to be eligible to take USMLE exams was those who graduated from KMC in 2003.

You can verify these facts with ECFMG and a simple google search. It is surprising as Manipal is a TOP notch university in India...so must be some internal politics or money matters...

This news is old hat.MCI's move was political.The Supreme Court of India has given a clean chit to KMC, and so has the Ministry of Education.KMC indeed in the top 5 med schools in India.....BUT KMCIC has no legal standing either in India or the US...if a complaint was to be filed by a motivated party...KMCIC will have unfathomable problems. AUA on the other hand is all legit just like KMC.

[Tipton]

.....BUT KMCIC has no legal standing either in India or the US...if a complaint was to be filed by a motivated party...KMCIC will have unfathomable problems. AUA on the other hand is all legit just like KMC.

Not quite sure what this means. KMCIC students become AUA students when coming into the US for 5th Semester and Clinicals. So everything that applies to AUA for approvals and accreditation applies to KMCIC.

Maybe you could clarify what these "problems" could be?

[coolaid]

Sorry , saw the post today, or else would have responded earlier.....OK...

AUA is AUA....KMCIC is KMCIC....so a KMCIC student cannot 'become' a AUA student come 5th sem....without transfering credit from KMCIC to AUA....and that is impossible.

No school can legaly accept KMCIC credits as it (1) Does not have a charter, and (2) Is not IMED listed.

So if AUA accepts thes credits, its not LEGAL! This acceptance of KMCIC credits by AUA is against the norms laid down by ECFMG.

But hey ,I am not a Whistle Blower nor am I a 'motivated party'.......I will just let things go as they go, its not my problem.

[coolaid]

...as for the question what problems could arise...well...I think a KMCIC student may have to repeat sem 1 to sem 4, at a LEGIT med school like KMC or AUA or some other place to pass muster with ECFMG regulations......but since the mood is dont tell and dont ask , thats fine with me...

The moot point is KMCIC is not KMC, nor is it AUA...its a separate entity..

[Tipton]

coolaid: You're using words like "illegal" and "impossible" without actually explaining what you mean and contrary to what our students are doing.

AUA and KMCIC are the same school. One campus in Antigua. One campus in Manipal. Not sure how anyone could conclude KMCIC students would have trouble in transferring into AUA's 5th Semester since they are already AUA/KMCIC students progressing from Manipal to Miami. None of the students who have done it so far have had any problems registering through ECFMG. I can't imagine why they would in the future.

[coolaid]

OK,I have a few questions here...

1)Are KMCIC students presenting AUA transcripts to ecfmg....or are they using KMCIC transcripts?

2)Do KMCIC students let ECFMG know that they did sem 1 thru 4 at Manipal(India), KMCIC and not at AUA,Antigua?

3)Do KMCIC students not misrepresent their position to ECFMG , if they are using AUA transcripts, as AUA is located in Antigua, whereas KMCIC is located in Manipal,India?


4)Will any school in the Carribean accept KMCIC transcripts? Has any school other than AUA ever accepted KMCIC transcripts?

5)Can any documentation be presented that states ECFMG accepts this 'twinning' program or can any documentation be presented that states that ECFMG accepts that AUA has a 'twin' school in India, named KMCIC as AUA equivalent, and hence also accepts this 'swapping of AUA transcripts for KMCIC's transcripts'?

[coolaid]

...I was not going to get involved in this....now I guess I have to write to ECFMG and other med boards and find this riddle....this will take time..but i will be back...and this will cost me my most precious commodity...time...darn...

[dt]

As we saw with St. Chris in the UK and Cornell in Quatar, a school campus outside their country of listing in IMED need to get their own listing. (I assume this to be the case as I have watched the events of these out-of-country campuses unfold.)

So, it seems to me that KMCIC and AUA mix may be trouble come licensing time in the US/Canada for those students using this combo.

But, what the heck do I know? It's not my money and years to take a chance on.

[Tipton]

As has already been mentioned in this thread, this is a moot discussion. AUA and KMC created a "twinning" relationship which resulted in KMCIC. Two Medical schools whose IMED and WHO listing is not in question, created a sister-school relationship (thus twinning program): Kasturba Medical College International Center (KMCIC).

I know I have written this about 100 times here already. But let's try once again. KMCIC students become AUA students when they return to the US. Whether you would like to call this a transfer of credit or simply transitioning from Basic Sciences to Clinicals, that is what happens.

KMCIC does not need MCI listing (the original topic opf this thread).

Let me clarify something in regards to what "transfer"ing from one school to another means. Every university or university system decides how they will or will not accept credit when a student applies for "transfer". The student is reviewed first for Admission/Acceptance into the school and second for Placement into the curriculum. In this case (KMCIC to AUA), the review is only for Placement since KMCIC students are already accepted into AUA's "twin"/sister school in Manipal. Just as AUA students have the ability to "transfer" from Antigua to Manipal without having to seek Acceptance into KMCIC but rather simply Placement. KMCIC students do not seek Acceptance into AUA (whether from Manipal to Antigua or Manipal to 5th Semester, Miami).

I do not know how to address confused analogies between AUA/KMCIC and St. Chris or any other school. I don't know enough about how St. Chris was established, whether under the auspices of a UK school and its home institution or simply as a satellite. KMCIC is not simply a satellite of AUA. But rather a "twin" of AUA established under the auspices of one of the most prestigious Medical Schools in the world: Kasturba Medical College.

My office is at 2 Wall Street on the 10th Floor, NYC. Feel free to drop in for more clarification. Or give me a call/email: 866-562-7708 tcarlson@auamed.org .

[coolaid]

Tipton: You have not answered any of the questions I asked you.

As for your present post, I have another question which I would prefer you to answer them on this forum, so the over 300 odd students of KMCIC and their parents can know of this issue better.Plus it will help 1000's more who would like to know more about KMCIC.

As for your mentioning, that AUA and KMC simply decided one fine morning to form a twinning program aka KMCIC......Does it have ECFMG's sanction?
Because if it does not, then the KMCIC program has no legal basis.

A 'twinning' program just cannot be formed just because you want to form them, but needs ECFMG certification.

And as Tipton did not answer the questions I raised in my previous posts about 'transcript swapping'...I am raising them again....

Do KMCIC students when they register with ECFMG ,
(a) Use KMCIC transcripts?
(b) Use AUA transcripts in lieu of their KMCIC transcripts?
(c) Do they let ECFMG know that though they are using AUA transcripts, they never went to AUA, but went to its 'twin' school, the KMCIC**, thousands of miles away in India?
**KMCIC is not KMC; KMCIC is not IMED listed;It has a different curricullum than AUA and KMC;
As has already been mentioned in this thread, this is a moot discussion. AUA and KMC created a "twinning" relationship which resulted in KMCIC. Two Medical schools whose IMED and WHO listing is not in question, created a sister-school relationship (thus twinning program): Kasturba Medical College International Center (KMCIC).

I know I have written this about 100 times here already. But let's try once again. KMCIC students become AUA students when they return to the US. Whether you would like to call this a transfer of credit or simply transitioning from Basic Sciences to Clinicals, that is what happens.

KMCIC does not need MCI listing (the original topic opf this thread).

Let me clarify something in regards to what "transfer"ing from one school to another means. Every university or university system decides how they will or will not accept credit when a student applies for "transfer". The student is reviewed first for Admission/Acceptance into the school and second for Placement into the curriculum. In this case (KMCIC to AUA), the review is only for Placement since KMCIC students are already accepted into AUA's "twin"/sister school in Manipal. Just as AUA students have the ability to "transfer" from Antigua to Manipal without having to seek Acceptance into KMCIC but rather simply Placement. KMCIC students do not seek Acceptance into AUA (whether from Manipal to Antigua or Manipal to 5th Semester, Miami).

I do not know how to address confused analogies between AUA/KMCIC and St. Chris or any other school. I don't know enough about how St. Chris was established, whether under the auspices of a UK school and its home institution or simply as a satellite. KMCIC is not simply a satellite of AUA. But rather a "twin" of AUA established under the auspices of one of the most prestigious Medical Schools in the world: Kasturba Medical College.

My office is at 2 Wall Street on the 10th Floor, NYC. Feel free to drop in for more clarification. Or give me a call/email: 866-562-7708 tcarlson@auamed.org .

[dt]

So, when the students are in India doing the basic sciences, are they students registered with KMC?

If not, then are they registered as students with AUA and doing their basic sciences in India?

Or, are they registered with KMCIC when they are in India?



As has already been mentioned in this thread, this is a moot discussion. AUA and KMC created a "twinning" relationship which resulted in KMCIC. Two Medical schools whose IMED and WHO listing is not in question, created a sister-school relationship (thus twinning program): Kasturba Medical College International Center (KMCIC).

I know I have written this about 100 times here already. But let's try once again. KMCIC students become AUA students when they return to the US. Whether you would like to call this a transfer of credit or simply transitioning from Basic Sciences to Clinicals, that is what happens.

KMCIC does not need MCI listing (the original topic opf this thread).

Let me clarify something in regards to what "transfer"ing from one school to another means. Every university or university system decides how they will or will not accept credit when a student applies for "transfer". The student is reviewed first for Admission/Acceptance into the school and second for Placement into the curriculum. In this case (KMCIC to AUA), the review is only for Placement since KMCIC students are already accepted into AUA's "twin"/sister school in Manipal. Just as AUA students have the ability to "transfer" from Antigua to Manipal without having to seek Acceptance into KMCIC but rather simply Placement. KMCIC students do not seek Acceptance into AUA (whether from Manipal to Antigua or Manipal to 5th Semester, Miami).

I do not know how to address confused analogies between AUA/KMCIC and St. Chris or any other school. I don't know enough about how St. Chris was established, whether under the auspices of a UK school and its home institution or simply as a satellite. KMCIC is not simply a satellite of AUA. But rather a "twin" of AUA established under the auspices of one of the most prestigious Medical Schools in the world: Kasturba Medical College.

My office is at 2 Wall Street on the 10th Floor, NYC. Feel free to drop in for more clarification. Or give me a call/email: 866-562-7708 tcarlson@auamed.org .

[coolaid]

When students are in India, they are registered as KMCIC students...they cannot be KMC students, as KMC students have to pass a Comman Entrance Test, that is regulated by the Govt of India and Karnataka...the KMC program in 5 years plus according to the new law, maybe a year more.

AUA has no say , nor any connection with the KMCIC students in India in their day to day affairs....the acceptance letter[can be presented here on the forum with names deleted] is mailed from KMCIC ,Manipal,India too...AUA merely accepts the applications and forwards them to KMCIC[not in most cases, as many apply directly to KMCIC office,India directly]

KMCIC acceptance standards are very lax....unlike KMC.
KMCIC is a different entity in a different building.


The truth is many students are unaware, till they reach Manipal, that they are mere KMCIC students and not KMC students.
And this is the clincher,even KMC does not accept KMCIC credits or transfers or even AUA credits for that matter....thats some 'twinning' relationship.....

[Tipton]

This is first time I have heard someone claim that a student accepted into KMCIC is surprised to find they have not been accepted into KMC. How odd that some anonymous poster here on VMD is making the claim. I speak with 20 or 30 prospective students and parents every day and have been in regular contact with current students. No one has ever made that claim to me. And believe me I have heard some doozies.

AUA's and KMCIC's Admissions Committees are independent. KMCIC's Admissions Committee follows standards established by AUA. Occasionally they make slightly different decisions for individual students. 99% of the time they are exactly the same.

About 10% of all applications to KMCIC go to Manipal directly. The rest go to me. And yes I forward (scan/email) them directly to the KMCIC Admissions Committee. Some students who apply to other programs in Manipal (MBBS, Nursing, Pharm...etc.) and are not accepted then decide to apply to KMCIC accounting for maybe 2% or 3% more of accepted KMCIC students.

KMCIC's admin offices, faculty offices and dedicated classroms/labs are in the same building as some of KMC's classrooms. KMCIC students share libraries, common classroms and every other facility of Manipal University.

And of course the "clincher" :shock:LOL. KMC doesn't accept transfer credit from another Medical School. (including KMCIC) Notice that punctuation there: period. A student could be enrolled in Harvard Medical School and apply to transfer to KMC and not receive transfer credit. "Why?" You may be asking yourself? Because Indian Medical Schools do not accept transfer credit. Any student applying to KMC is applying to the first semester whether they are coming out of high school, college, a Master's program or if they have a PhD.

KMCIC is not an Indian Medical School.

Compared to KMC, KMCIC's admissions standards are easier, yes. But how are you comparing one of the most prestigious and desirable Medical Schools in the world with KMCIC which has been in existence for 2 1/2 years now? KMC, Manipal has an incoming class of 250 every year and probably 40-50,000 applicants for those 250 spots.

I hope someone out there is being edified by this. I feel like I'm working with a certain "least common denominator" situtation here. Answering the same questions over and over again. Must be the nature of VMD.

[Tipton]

So, when the students are in India doing the basic sciences, are they students registered with KMC?

If not, then are they registered as students with AUA and doing their basic sciences in India?

Or, are they registered with KMCIC when they are in India?

KMCIC students are KMCIC students: AUA's twin. KMCIC will never be KMC. KMC is an Indian Medical School. KMCIC is a US-modeled medical school. This is a sister-school relationship allowing students from the US and Canada the opportunity to take advantage of being enrolled in KMCIC for Basic Sciences (or Premed-Basic Sciences) at Manipal University. Then returning to the US for Clincal Rotations, USMLE Steps 1 & 2, graduating from AUA with an MD and gaining residency through the NRMP match.

[Tipton]

And as Tipton did not answer the questions I raised in my previous posts about 'transcript swapping'...I am raising them again....

Do KMCIC students when they register with ECFMG ,
(a) Use KMCIC transcripts?
(b) Use AUA transcripts in lieu of their KMCIC transcripts?
(c) Do they let ECFMG know that though they are using AUA transcripts, they never went to AUA, but went to its 'twin' school, the KMCIC**, thousands of miles away in India?
**KMCIC is not KMC; KMCIC is not IMED listed;It has a different curricullum than AUA and KMC;

KMCIC has the same curriculumas AUA. Another erroneous claim above.

KMCIC students BECOME AUA students when returning to the US. They would submit ALL Medical School transcripts to ECFMG just like any other student. If a student should begin medical school at Ross then transfer to AUA she/he would need to submit both transcripts when registering for USMLE through ECFMG.

I have rarely seen so many erroneous assumptions made when asking questions. I will of course continue to answer more questions. Might I suggest not making so many erroneous assumptions? It would make answering your inquiries easier and more useful.

And no, I will not point out what your erroneous assumptions are. Anyone can read your questions and find them on their own.

[dt]

KMCIC students are KMCIC students: AUA's twin. KMCIC will never be KMC. KMC is an Indian Medical School. KMCIC is a US-modeled medical school. This is a sister-school relationship allowing students from the US and Canada the opportunity to take advantage of being enrolled in KMCIC for Basic Sciences (or Premed-Basic Sciences) at Manipal University. Then returning to the US for Clincal Rotations, USMLE Steps 1 & 2, graduating from AUA with an MD and gaining residency through the NRMP match.


Okay, thanks.

I did a search for KMCIC (Kasturba Medical College International Center) and did not find it on IMED:
IMED - FAIMER International Medical Education Directory - Search Results (http://imed.ecfmg.org/results.asp?country=0&school=Kasturba+&currpage=1&cname=&city=&region=0&rname=&psize=25)

So, are they students registered with Manipal University, this IMED (http://imed.ecfmg.org/details.asp?country=&school=manipal&currpage=1&cname=&city=&region=&rname=&mcode=495530&psize=25) listing?

[Tipton]

Students first register with ECFMG for Step 1. Try looking up AUA since KMCIC students will be AUA students by that time.

[whats_up_doc]

????????????????

[Tipton]

One more time: AUA and KMCIC are the same school. Same approvals. Same accreditation. Same institution. Same. One school. Two campuses.

I hope my tone doesn't discourage anyone from asking or posting here. Maybe I should take a parent's suggestion and write a "white paper" or something. And it could also be that m lack of patience is simply because I answer these questions all week long and lack the perspective to appreciate the questions.

[dt]

One more time: AUA and KMCIC are the same school. Same approvals. Same accreditation. Same institution. Same. One school. Two campuses.

I hope my tone doesn't discourage anyone from asking or posting here. Maybe I should take a parent's suggestion and write a "white paper" or something. And it could also be that m lack of patience is simply because I answer these questions all week long and lack the perspective to appreciate the questions.


Okay, got it. From the bold above, then it would be safe to say that the students studying at KMCIC are registered as AUA students.

[coolaid]

Okay, got it. From the bold above, then it would be safe to say that the students studying at KMCIC are registered as AUA students.

So , is that within the parameters of ECFMG's directives...One school two campuses, one campus in Antigua and the other in India?

[coolaid]

Students first register with ECFMG for Step 1. Try looking up AUA since KMCIC students will be AUA students by that time.

See this is the problem...a KMCIC student 'becomes a AUA student at that time'.......

Right now I am recording Tipton's assertion that when the KMCIC students register with ECFMF they 'submit both KMCIC and AUA transcripts'.......even though Tipton stresses that KMCIC students are .....'AUA students at that time'....sounds a little confusing.

To be fair I will wait till I get my reply from ECFMG......

[dt]

So , is that within the parameters of ECFMG's directives...One school two campuses, one campus in Antigua and the other in India?


I think ECFMG doesnt really care that much. They would see AUA, a listed ECFMG school, cover for the KMCIC students and need not look deeper. I would think the concern would be come licensure time. It would be up to individual state or provincial licensing authorities how they would look at this. If you and I are confused about this AUA/KMCIC mix, I wonder what would happen when one of them start probing?

[dt]

See this is the problem...a KMCIC student 'becomes a AUA student at that time'.......

Right now I am recording Tipton's assertion that when the KMCIC students register with ECFMF they 'submit both KMCIC and AUA transcripts'.......even though Tipton stresses that KMCIC students are .....'AUA students at that time'....sounds a little confusing.

To be fair I will wait till I get my reply from ECFMG......


It's really up to AUA if they want to accept KMCIC courses for credit.

But a state licensing board may ask for proof that the credited courses were taken at a listed IMED school. They could also ask for proof that the student was at Antigua.

[AUCMD2006]

these are all good questions to ask because regardless of what "relationship" a school forms, regardless of admission standrads and anything else there will be licensing questions, issues, problems or whatever you want to call them because you are either doing 2 years of education in a campus that is outside country of charter if you want to call yourself an AUA student or you are doing 2 years of education in an unchartered med school (KMCIC) what this basically seems to amount to is trying to maneuver students in between being full AUA students and KMC students.

now it will probably not matter for taking the usmle and getting ecgm certified because they are probably just using AUA transcripts it may not come up for residency liocensure and may not even come up in full licensure initially because the fact that a student did basic science in india wil be so burried below usmle scores, rotations, etc that it will probably get by many state boards but eventually it will be reaised and is likely to blow up in the students face..the school already got paid, they got you a degree they could care less....but this has a very bad potential to bite you in the back side unless all angles are cleared with the boards

[dt]

these are all good questions to ask because regardless of what "relationship" a school forms, regardless of admission standrads and anything else there will be licensing questions, issues, problems or whatever you want to call them because you are either doing 2 years of education in a campus that is outside country of charter if you want to call yourself an AUA student or you are doing 2 years of education in an unchartered med school (KMCIC) what this basically seems to amount to is trying to maneuver students in between being full AUA students and KMC students.

now it will probably not matter for taking the usmle and getting ecgm certified because they are probably just using AUA transcripts it may not come up for residency liocensure and may not even come up in full licensure initially because the fact that a student did basic science in india wil be so burried below usmle scores, rotations, etc that it will probably get by many state boards but eventually it will be reaised and is likely to blow up in the students face..the school already got paid, they got you a degree they could care less....but this has a very bad potential to bite you in the back side unless all angles are cleared with the boards


yah, agreed.

[coolaid]

Not quite sure what this means. KMCIC students become AUA students when coming into the US for 5th Semester and Clinicals. So everything that applies to AUA for approvals and accreditation applies to KMCIC.

Maybe you could clarify what these "problems" could be?

...well one problem could be that AUA will have problems with CA certfication.....because I think AUA forgot to mention about the twinning program to CA Med board....wow.

[coolaid]

Not quite sure what this means. KMCIC students become AUA students when coming into the US for 5th Semester and Clinicals. So everything that applies to AUA for approvals and accreditation applies to KMCIC.

Maybe you could clarify what these "problems" could be?

coolaid: You're using words like "illegal" and "impossible" without actually explaining what you mean and contrary to what our students are doing.

AUA and KMCIC are the same school. One campus in Antigua. One campus in Manipal. Not sure how anyone could conclude KMCIC students would have trouble in transferring into AUA's 5th Semester since they are already AUA/KMCIC students progressing from Manipal to Miami. None of the students who have done it so far have had any problems registering through ECFMG. I can't imagine why they would in the future.

....ok............................................ ...

[coolaid]

This is first time I have heard someone claim that a student accepted into KMCIC is surprised to find they have not been accepted into KMC. How odd that some anonymous poster here on VMD is making the claim. I speak with 20 or 30 prospective students and parents every day and have been in regular contact with current students. No one has ever made that claim to me. And believe me I have heard some doozies.

AUA's and KMCIC's Admissions Committees are independent. KMCIC's Admissions Committee follows standards established by AUA. Occasionally they make slightly different decisions for individual students. 99% of the time they are exactly the same.

About 10% of all applications to KMCIC go to Manipal directly. The rest go to me. And yes I forward (scan/email) them directly to the KMCIC Admissions Committee. Some students who apply to other programs in Manipal (MBBS, Nursing, Pharm...etc.) and are not accepted then decide to apply to KMCIC accounting for maybe 2% or 3% more of accepted KMCIC students.

KMCIC's admin offices, faculty offices and dedicated classroms/labs are in the same building as some of KMC's classrooms. KMCIC students share libraries, common classroms and every other facility of Manipal University.

And of course the "clincher" :shock:LOL. KMC doesn't accept transfer credit from another Medical School. (including KMCIC) Notice that punctuation there: period. A student could be enrolled in Harvard Medical School and apply to transfer to KMC and not receive transfer credit. "Why?" You may be asking yourself? Because Indian Medical Schools do not accept transfer credit. Any student applying to KMC is applying to the first semester whether they are coming out of high school, college, a Master's program or if they have a PhD.

KMCIC is not an Indian Medical School.

Compared to KMC, KMCIC's admissions standards are easier, yes. But how are you comparing one of the most prestigious and desirable Medical Schools in the world with KMCIC which has been in existence for 2 1/2 years now? KMC, Manipal has an incoming class of 250 every year and probably 40-50,000 applicants for those 250 spots.

I hope someone out there is being edified by this. I feel like I'm working with a certain "least common denominator" situtation here. Answering the same questions over and over again. Must be the nature of VMD.

KMCIC students are KMCIC students: AUA's twin. KMCIC will never be KMC. KMC is an Indian Medical School. KMCIC is a US-modeled medical school. This is a sister-school relationship allowing students from the US and Canada the opportunity to take advantage of being enrolled in KMCIC for Basic Sciences (or Premed-Basic Sciences) at Manipal University. Then returning to the US for Clincal Rotations, USMLE Steps 1 & 2, graduating from AUA with an MD and gaining residency through the NRMP match.

KMCIC has the same curriculumas AUA. Another erroneous claim above.

KMCIC students BECOME AUA students when returning to the US. They would submit ALL Medical School transcripts to ECFMG just like any other student. If a student should begin medical school at Ross then transfer to AUA she/he would need to submit both transcripts when registering for USMLE through ECFMG.

I have rarely seen so many erroneous assumptions made when asking questions. I will of course continue to answer more questions. Might I suggest not making so many erroneous assumptions? It would make answering your inquiries easier and more useful.

And no, I will not point out what your erroneous assumptions are. Anyone can read your questions and find them on their own.

Students first register with ECFMG for Step 1. Try looking up AUA since KMCIC students will be AUA students by that time.

One more time: AUA and KMCIC are the same school. Same approvals. Same accreditation. Same institution. Same. One school. Two campuses.

I hope my tone doesn't discourage anyone from asking or posting here. Maybe I should take a parent's suggestion and write a "white paper" or something. And it could also be that m lack of patience is simply because I answer these questions all week long and lack the perspective to appreciate the questions.

....ok............................................ ...

Well whatever AUA has said about the KMCIC program is here....so if some one from ECFMG or CA or any other board wants to see it, its all here....

[Tipton]

Any particular reason you are spamming here? Maybe you could give us an update on ECFMG you have been promising.

[coolaid]

Spamming?...I spoke to them Tipton ..as I did to some medical boards, including CA med board.....it seems AUA applied to CA on the 28th of MArch, and forgot to mention to them that they have a twinning program.....I clubbed all your comments as some one from the CA board would find it easier to look at them if its all here...nothing much....

[Tipton]

LOL Like we've been hiding KMCIC in a closet. Thanks for making my day! Ms. Pat Park is welcome to see my comments here. As I'm sure she already has (is). Welcome Ms. Park.

What about ECFMG?

You are creating an interesting tone for someone who is neither a current nor former student. I wonder why this is?

[coolaid]

.....I would urge you to call the CA board and ask it yourself if indeed this happened Tipton....the number to call would be 916-263-2424, and ask .......since CA is behind NY hours, I am sure you will be able to confirm what I said...making personal attacks on me will not deflect this problem......good day!

[Tipton]

You clubbed my comments together...interesting. All of my comments are here anyway. What are you accomplishing by "clubbing" them together?

[coolaid]

...i will get back with ECFMG news.....Tipton....

[Tipton]

.....I would urge you to call the CA board and ask it yourself if indeed this happened Tipton....the number to call would be 916-263-2424, and ask .......since CA is behind NY hours, I am sure you will be able to confirm what I said...making personal attacks on me will not deflect this problem......good day!

Confirm that what happened exactly? I've call CMB before. Not a big deal. I might call again someday. But only for a good reason.

I'm attacking you now?

[coolaid]

...some of them were not in quotes...I did not want them to be 'deleted'.....

[Tipton]

...i will get back with ECFMG news.....Tipton....

OKAY. Thanks.

[coolaid]

...that AUA DID NOT MENTION KMCIC's existence to CA med board.....thats all Tipton.....can you tell me why that might be Tipton?

[Tipton]

Because we've been hiding KMCIC in a closet, I guess. You tell me since you think it's so nefarious.

And I suppose you blessed them with the benefit of all your lovely assumptions. Glad I'm not on the California Medical Board taking your calls:cool:.

[coolaid]

LOL, Tipton.....please let us know when you find it....I would urge all KMCIC students to call CA med board and confirm these...
If AUA did apply on the 28th of MArch,08 for CA approval and fail to mention KMCIC's existence...

and then ask AUA as to why KMCIC's existence , as so apltly put by Tipton, 'hidden in the closet' by AUA....

...its obious KMCIC twinning program is not LEGAL, as KMCIC has no charter nor IMED listing....or else why 'deny even its existence'.....

To be fair to Tipton, its quite possible that Tipton does not even know what the management of AUA is doing.....as for me I will post after my email at ECFMG comes through

[Tipton]

Since I've been answering these same questions over and over again I'll let you begin from the top and read...again.

One word: same. Look it up. Night.

[sher05]

yo coolaid, relax

[BBD]

...that AUA DID NOT MENTION KMCIC's existence to CA med board

Are you on the CA med board and looked over the application?

Have you personally seen the apllication?

Did some CA board member WASTE their time divulging info to some random person with no credentials the complete application of AUA?

So the simple question is what is your damage?
What's your bone with AUA?

[value499]

Good job holding your ground Tipton, your explanations were clear....even my pet monkey got it.....anyone down for some "Koolaid?".... ;)

[Tipton]

Coolaid's concerns are valid. For some reason he/she is annoyed with KMCIC. This type of challenge can be a good thing clarifying issues for other students. Cheers.

[DOCplucinski]

isn't KMCIC just a separate program out of KMC? why would it need a separate charter? it's like the English programs at Polish and European med schools, i don't think they needed a separate charter or IMED listing.

coolaid, you need to relax a little

[coolaid]

isn't KMCIC just a separate program out of KMC? why would it need a separate charter? it's like the English programs at Polish and European med schools, i don't think they needed a separate charter or IMED listing.

coolaid, you need to relax a little

They actually do need a charter and IMED listing as unlike Polish schools , they are 'OUTSIDE' the charter country...a similar example was the Senegal Charter of St. Chris, which had a Luton campus, the school is no more.

Tipton, its unfortunate that You think I am 'annoyed' with KMCIC, I have 4 family members at various semesters in KMCIC right now...and if you have access to IP logging you will realise I am in Manipal right now.........apart from the VMD board KMCIC students do not have any other recourse as Mr. P's prowess to supress concerns of students is a legend.


As for questions raised by a newbie poster about if indeed AUA did or did not fail to mention KMCIC, ...the application is dated the 28th of March,2008.You dont have to be board member to have access to such information,lol. The question is this a concern for KMCICers and their family who foot their education bills.

The latest news so far is this, that AUA's appcation is being viewed in negative light, the same as St Mathew's was, as they too had not mentioned the existence of their Vertinery school, when they applied for CA. I only hope that AUA will rectify the situation, and get CA.......but its KMCIC's 400 odd students who have the problem right now....find out if indeed their time and effort at KMCIC can be salvaged, because their no two opinions about the fact that AUA did not mention KMCIC at all in their application. This makes KMCICers wonder if their program is bonafide.

To posters , who are indulging in personal abuse, it only portrays you, makes no difference to me, I will post honestly what information I will get from the medical boards and ECFMG.

DOC, you are telling me to relax....but a few days back when AUA loan went astray, you were like me concerned.......but the stakes are higher for KMCICers......will they have to repeat their semesters at another school or AUA?....where will the money come from?..Trust me its not very relaxing....

[DOCplucinski]

no no, comparing St. Chris and this is completely different. let me give you an example, the English program at Jag (a school a Poland) recently got California-approval. here's IMEDs listing for schools in Poland: IMED - FAIMER International Medical Education Directory - Search Results (http://imed.ecfmg.org/results.asp?country=759&school=&currpage=1&cname=POLAND&city=&region=0&rname=&psize=25)

do you see any separate listings for English programs? i don't, that's because they don't need a separate listing. same holds true for KMCIC, it's just another division in that school, it's not in another country like some of St. Chris's would be.

if you can show me a different listing for these English programs in Europe (which is the same type of school pertaining to US and Canadian med students), then i'll rethink my stance.

[DOCplucinski]

and again, how are they outside the charter country? they attend school in india at KMC

i honestly don't really care about their whole affiliation and i don't see why you're making this big deal about it. you have no idea whether it will affect AUA when it comes time for the decision from CA which is years away.

[coolaid]

OK right now DOC, you and Tipton are having divergent views...Tipton is saying KMCIC is AUA's twin, and you are saying KMCIC is KMC's twin........KMC;s having a twin program has to regulated by MCI, Govt of Karnataka[The local govt], and Govt of India[Federal Govt]..........so KMCIC is a not another division of KMC, because if KMCIC was another division of KMC, then by law only a small fraction of its seats had to be given to Non Indian citizens, but KMCIC has only Canadian and US students.

But KMC offers a small fraction of its seats to Non Indian citizens, but the Indian students have to sit in a common entrance test to make it to KMC...you dont need any tests to enter KMCIC.

Conclusion: KMCIC is just not another division in KMC school, its separate, and completely out of the pre-view of MCI. KMCIC is a twin school of AUA.

You can also call MCI[Medical council of India] at 91-11-253-67033 or 35 or 36 or 37.........

Also DOC, its not about 'you', its about KMCICers and their family members, the 400 odd students dont really worry about what others are thinking, its about saving their investment in time, effort and money.....

[coolaid]

.....Indian laws are not the same as Poland DOC, you cannot extrapolate them onto Indian Med school laws, which is governed by its parliament, and MCI.....

About AUA getting CA, I want it to get it as any other Joe at AUA, its a great school........the news that it 'may not' is not my take, but thats what CA med board is saying, why dont you call themDOC?, ofcourse u are right in the middle of step studies, but it only takes 3 minutes...do call...good day..

[asm64x]

Can somebody please tell if the quote below from Tipton applies to KMCIC students as well? And if this does happen, how much of an affect will this apply to student's education? Thanks

Direct link to post: http://www.valuemd.com/asian-medical-schools/154042-kasturba-medical-college-manipal-vs-mangalore.html


"Sorry I can't address your questions about comparing KMC-Manipal and KMC-Mangalore. But I can address the MCI "recommendation for derecognition" issue.

The Medical Council of India has "recommended" to the Indian Ministry of Health to "derecognize" KMC, which if enacted would be the equivalent of withdrawing accreditation of KMC. Per Dr. R. Pai, President of Manipal University ( I spoke with him in our NY office and on a boat in Manipal druing an evening party) MCI is trying to use its political muscle to strong arm KMC for money. Originally I thought it was tied to NRI and other non-Indian students enrolling in Manipal University. However its apparently much simpler than that: Dr. Pai simply doesn't want to "play the game" with MCI's politics. MCI doesn't "recognize" Indian Medical Schools. The Indian Ministry of Health does. And they have not taken MCI's "recommendation". One of my students actually called the Ministry of Health and asked them about it and they pointed out the fact that a stamp has been issued with the face of TMA Pai, founder of KMC. And they have no intention of "derecognizing" KMC.

What does this mean? Nothing.

For a few months back in 2002(?) KMC students were having trouble registering with ECFMG for USMLE. But that issue was resolved by Manipal University. Now its simply what it has always been: a toothless threat."

[Tipton]

KMCIC is not an Indian Medical School hence has no need of MCI or Indian Health Ministry recognition. All approvals for KMCIC are tied to it's sister/twin school: AUA.

[asm64x]

What if along the way, KMC gets de-accreditation, and how would that affect KMCICers?

Also, didn't the ministry decide to keep KMC accredited?

Just a couple of questions in thought... Thanks. :)

KMCIC is not an Indian Medical School hence has no need of MCI or Indian Health Ministry recognition. All approvals for KMCIC are tied to it's sister/twin school: AUA.

[Tipton]

It wouldn't happen in the first place. But IF it did KMCIC, since it is not an Indian Medical School, would not be affected.

[asm64x]

Okay, but KMC's top reputation in India and one of the prestigious in the world, I don't think they will receive de-accrediation in the long run. What did they do wrong that would get them to this point.

Tipton, I noticed I've opened new threads that I didn't get a response to. Would it be possible if you can respond to them, since you are the Guru of the entire program? Thanks a lot. :D

It wouldn't happen in the first place. But IF it did KMCIC, since it is not an Indian Medical School, would not be affected.

[Tipton]

I respond where and when I can. Some things are better answered by students.

If you want more info about why MCI has an issue with KMC I suggest doing what I did: research it. Or you can take the benefit of my research and see what I wrote.

[asm64x]

I am definitely taking advantage of what you are saying, but student's are keeping on posting about you. I did as much research as possible. I engulfed the World Wide Web in my system, its only a matter of clarifying thats all. I've received two PM's from other students who have clarified what the real deal is. Thankfully, there is nothing to worry about now. Hooray! :) Now its only a matter of a few questions that I will post later. - Cheers!, Thanks Tipton.

I respond where and when I can. Some things are better answered by students.

If you want more info about why MCI has an issue with KMC I suggest doing what I did: research it. Or you can take the benefit of my research and see what I wrote.

[UHSADOC]

So, what would be stated on the diploma of the student ?
AUA or KMC ? or both ? and how will that work in Cali, since KMC I believe is listed as approved, and AUA is NOT approved in CA.

[Tipton]

KMCIC students become AUA students ("transfer") when they return to the US for 5th Semester and graduate from AUA.

[Tipton]

To be fair I will wait till I get my reply from ECFMG......

Anything from ECFMG yet?

[kalyanambiar]

:confused: Dear Sir/madam,
Is American University of Antigua is approved by Medical council of India(MCI).
Mail me or contact me at +919847646486

[Scott1981]

So, what would be stated on the diploma of the student ?
AUA or KMC ? or both ? and how will that work in Cali, since KMC I believe is listed as approved, and AUA is NOT approved in CA.

it would not work in cali. all medical school work would have to be completed in a cali approved school. this includes clinicals, but you would be at aua doing clinicals.

[Tipton]

:confused: Dear Sir/madam,
Is American University of Antigua is approved by Medical council of India(MCI).
Mail me or contact me at +919847646486

No. KMCIC is a US-modeled MD program. MCI "recognizes" Indian MBBS programs.

[anirudhap]

Coolaid, Anyword from ECFMG? I think you have valid doubts and it should be clarified before KMCIC's students come to the real world of USA medical field and face more problems for getting into residency and hospitals.

BTW, Tipton, How many intakes of students AUA and KMCIC together have every year....

[GodzillaBorland]

these are all good questions to ask because regardless of what "relationship" a school forms, regardless of admission standrads and anything else there will be licensing questions, issues, problems or whatever you want to call them because you are either doing 2 years of education in a campus that is outside country of charter if you want to call yourself an AUA student or you are doing 2 years of education in an unchartered med school (KMCIC) what this basically seems to amount to is trying to maneuver students in between being full AUA students and KMC students.

now it will probably not matter for taking the usmle and getting ecgm certified because they are probably just using AUA transcripts it may not come up for residency liocensure and may not even come up in full licensure initially because the fact that a student did basic science in india wil be so burried below usmle scores, rotations, etc that it will probably get by many state boards but eventually it will be reaised and is likely to blow up in the students face..the school already got paid, they got you a degree they could care less....but this has a very bad potential to bite you in the back side unless all angles are cleared with the boards


There are lots of students who transfer between medical schools, so what is the big deal if some completes part of it one school and finsihes in another

[asm64x]

Manipal is no longer is under de-accreditation by the Indian Medical board. It is implied that if KMC was to be de-accrediated, this would affect KMCIC as well. However this is very unlikely. With KMC's reputation, no member of the board (in my opinion) would be insane enough to do such a thing. Manipal is a private university. Med students there in my feeling are given high hopes in becoming true successful physicians. This is why I am heading there this semester.

[mkulob]

KMCIC students BECOME AUA students when returning to the US. They would submit ALL Medical School transcripts to ECFMG just like any other student. If a student should begin medical school at Ross then transfer to AUA she/he would need to submit both transcripts when registering for USMLE through ECFMG.


Wait what? What if you start at AUA as a first semester? Can't you pretend that Ross doesn't exist?

[azskeptic]

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2008073154660400.htm&date=2008/07/31/&prd=th& (info@jonesinternational.edu)

[Tipton]

You get the 3rd place prize: 2 people already called me about this today!!!

[azskeptic]

The internet never sleeps so surprised you didn't get a call in the middle of the night from India

You get the 3rd place prize: 2 people already called me about this today!!!

[Tipton]

Me too. Actually the people who called me got the call in the middle of the night, then called me this morning.

[Tipton]

If you go into MCI's website and look at the school list (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/default.asp) (State of Karnataka)they no longer have the "recommended for derecognition" next to any of the schools...interesting.

[azskeptic]

now it lists them as

http://www.mciindia.org/images/band-top-second.gifContact Us (http://www.mciindia.org/common/contact_us.htm)Forums (http://www.mciindia.org/mci-discuss) Publications (http://www.mciindia.org/publications/index.htm) Feedback (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/common/feedback.htm) Home (http://www.mciindia.org/index.htm) http://www.mciindia.org/apps/spacer.gifNumber of Results Found: 2
Course : - MBBS -
Recog. Status: ALL
State : Karnataka
University : Manipal University
Go Back (javascript:document.location.href='/apps/search/default.asp') Course NameStateName and Address of
Medical College / Medical InstitutionManagementYear of Inception of collegeAnnual Intake
(Seats)Status of
MCI Recognition- MBBS - Karnataka Kasturba Medical College, Mangalore (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/view_college.asp?ID=78) Trust 1955 250 Recognized When granted in or before the year 2008 - MBBS - Karnataka Kasturba Medical College, Manipal (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/view_college.asp?ID=79) Trust 1953 250 Recognized When granted in or before the year 2008

If you go into MCI's website and look at the school list (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/default.asp) (State of Karnataka)they no longer have the "recommended for derecognition" next to any of the schools...interesting.

[Tipton]

Now it's...

Karnataka Kasturba Medical College, Mangalore (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/view_college.asp?ID=78) Trust 1955 250 Recognized When granted in or before the year 2008
Karnataka Kasturba Medical College, Manipal (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/view_college.asp?ID=79) Trust 1953 250 Recognized When granted in or before the year 2008

With some schools now listed as:

Karnataka Dr BR Ambedkar Medical College, Bangalore (http://www.mciindia.org/apps/search/view_college.asp?ID=31) Trust 1980 0 The Central Govt. has directed the Institute not to admit any further batch of MBBS Students for the academic year 2008-2009