Prediction: Ross Class Sizes Will Reach 500-1000 Within the Next Decade

[RossMD2006]

What do you guys think of the huge class size at Ross? Ross has been a IM and FP mill for years. Class sizes in the future will reach to state University levels with students sitting in balconies, especially with an open admissions policy.

When I was there the incoming class was like 300...by the time I left the island there were like 100-200 of us left.

Is that dinky little library there? I say if Ross doesn't expand the library to include adequate study space for EVERYONE, then I would call the administration out on this one. Students shouldn't have to resort to studying in classrooms...demand a state of the art library folks. Ross is making big bucks...they can at the very least have a library everyone can study in.

Expect a lot from your professors. You pay top dollar to go to Ross. You shouldn't settle for a professor who can't do his job. None of this "there's always your good and bad teachers everywhere." Teachers who can't teach is like a surgeon who doesn't know how to cut. Professors who can't teach are pathetic at best.

[vaneleus]

That's a gigantic range of possible increase you're talking about (about 15% to >100%). While I wouldn't be surprised to see classes pass the 500 mark in the next decade, I would be shocked if they got anywhere close to 1000. The current campus, town, airport, etcetera would be hard pressed to accomodate the numbers you are talking about.

[ILPsychDoc]

That's a gigantic range of possible increase you're talking about (about 15% to >100%). While I wouldn't be surprised to see classes pass the 500 mark in the next decade, I would be shocked if they got anywhere close to 1000. The current campus, town, airport, etcetera would be hard pressed to accomodate the numbers you are talking about.

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that they would have to get a building that could house 1000+ people (repeaters), and increase clinical spots, which are already taxed. I wouldnt be surprised to see ~500 but a 1000 is just too many...

Plus w/ the Venezuelans discussing oil refineries, and the new school going up in the Bahamas, I doubt they will expand Ross-Dominica much more...

[jconlyway]

according to the devry meeting the admin had, they will cap the incoming classes at 350.
we'll see if it holds up next semester.

[surfermd]

according to the devry meeting the admin had, they will cap the incoming classes at 350.
we'll see if it holds up next semester.

Don't forget to account for those that are repeaters. Also, I doubt they will cap...especially after the fall DeVry shares have experienced this quarter.

[jim]

past hsitory shows that when class sizes get that big, DOE starts getting very nervous and nosy. the school in DR that was that big got shut down after losing all hope of financial aid from the states due to their "diploma mill" rep.

[ILPsychDoc]

Ross isn't a diploma mill... you have to graduate doctors and give them diplomas for that title... they are more of an acceptance mill. If Ross decides to accept a lot more students, some grading policies will be "tweaked" and, magically, the same number enter into second as the smaller group the semester before...

I can picture the Devry chiefs drooling and laughing maniacally *mwa ha ha*...

[Almost Home]

Do your research. Ross will never reach 1000 per class. There are a limited number of residency spots in u.s. programs. The number of residency spots is not scheduled to increase over the next 5 years. The number of u.s. graduates in the u.s. has been fixed at around 18000 for the past 30 years. The number of u.s. residency spots has been fixed ast @26500 for the past 15 years. As of 2006 the number of u.s. graduates began increasing at a rate of @15% per year and is scheduled to increase the same for the next 5 years due to increased enrollment. In addition there were 7 new medical schools charter in the u.s. in 2006 that are scheduled to produce an additional 1500 students per year by 2011. Combined with increased enrollment (at the request of the AMA) and the increased number of u.s. medical schools, experts predict that by the match of 2012 there will be enough u.s. graduates to fill ever single residency position in the u.s. making FMG's unnecessary.

I love the AMA. If they couldnt outlaw ross then they would simple make it unnecessary. Pretty smart if you ask me.

Do your research online and verify what I am saying is true. If you are just now entering Ross you may find yourself having a hard time finding a residency in the U.S.

I am not a putting Ross down. I just graduated from Ross and I am happy that I have been giving the chance to become an M.D. . I am just saying do the research and you may find things are about to get alot harder for FMG's.

[DrunkenDancer]

I think a big problem for Ross, well more specifically for students, is that the number of residency spots is basically static in the U.S., so more and more Ross students would go unmatched each year, if Ross starts graduating 500 more students a year there is simply not enough residency spots for them all , especially so considering that other Caribbean schools and international schools are sending more applicants to the US for training . . .the residency match was more competitive last year than any year before

[jim]

i wasnt calling Ross a diploma mill. its just that when you start getting up in numbers, the DOE starts to get nervous. they caused the clsoing of a few schools in the 80s for the same reasons. they gave everybody diplomas, but none of them could get jobs in the states.

[Scott1981]

and the new school going up in the Bahamas,

wait, there is a new medical school opening in the bahamas? did i miss something?

[vaneleus]

wait, there is a new medical school opening in the bahamas? did i miss something?
Word on the street is that Ross is opening a "branch" campus in the Bahamas.

[Almost Home]

The new medical schools I was referring to were all in the united states.

[Scott1981]

Word on the street is that Ross is opening a "branch" campus in the Bahamas.

is this a rumor or is this true? do you have a link? which island will it be on? id love to read up on this.

[spyyder]

is this a rumor or is this true? do you have a link? which island will it be on? id love to read up on this.

Makes sense. With some up and coming schools and viable competitors in St. Martin (AUC/Undoubtedly connected to the new D.O school), Antigua (AUA), and Grand Cayman (SMU) etc. the next 10-15 years (and Cali approvals for the latter) will make Ross a third choice on many students list. It would make sense to develop a campus on a more "modern" island. Secondary to this objective would be strong clinicals, which is what prompted SGU to sign their 100mil hospital deal. This carib med business is gonna get tight, and the smaller schools will be weeded out.

[Scott1981]

Makes sense. With some up and coming schools and viable competitors in St. Martin (AUC/Undoubtedly connected to the new D.O school), Antigua (AUA), and Grand Cayman (SMU) etc. the next 10-15 years (and Cali approvals for the latter) will make Ross a third choice on many students list. It would make sense to develop a campus on a more "modern" island. Secondary to this objective would be strong clinicals, which is what prompted SGU to sign their 100mil hospital deal. This carib med business is gonna get tight, and the smaller schools will be weeded out.

whats not to like about being able to take a puddle jumper not just to another island.... BUT BACK TO THE STATES :)!!!

[vaneleus]

is this a rumor or is this true? do you have a link? which island will it be on? id love to read up on this.

I have no solid proof, but something is going down. http://www.bahamas.gov.**/bahamasweb2/home.nsf/c5d1826da66595d206256f03005e99f2/7d873cb5e984afab85257378006b73d9!OpenDocument

the auto proofreader thing put stars in the link where b s is supposed to be.

[Scott1981]

I have no solid proof, but something is going down. http://www.bahamas.gov.**/bahamasweb2/home.nsf/c5d1826da66595d206256f03005e99f2/7d873cb5e984afab85257378006b73d9!OpenDocument

the auto proofreader thing put stars in the link where b s is supposed to be.

great find..... maybe it will be in freeport since the meeting was there and not in nassau (the capital of bahamas). that would be great for students since there is a fast ferry (i thinks its called "the cat") that goes from ft lauderdale to grand bahama island.

nevermind.... it is no longer in service.
Bahamas-Florida Ferry - Bahamas Vacation Travel Guide by Bahamas-Travel.info (http://www.bahamas-travel.info/the_cat.html)

[MD Hammer]

very, very interesting...key issue is Ross shouldn't waste money on finding a new island, just finding better clinical sites in the US of A. All this other crap doesnt really matter.

[x1433]

Do your research. Ross will never reach 1000 per class. There are a limited number of residency spots in u.s. programs. The number of residency spots is not scheduled to increase over the next 5 years. The number of u.s. graduates in the u.s. has been fixed at around 18000 for the past 30 years. The number of u.s. residency spots has been fixed ast @26500 for the past 15 years. As of 2006 the number of u.s. graduates began increasing at a rate of @15% per year and is scheduled to increase the same for the next 5 years due to increased enrollment. In addition there were 7 new medical schools charter in the u.s. in 2006 that are scheduled to produce an additional 1500 students per year by 2011. Combined with increased enrollment (at the request of the AMA) and the increased number of u.s. medical schools, experts predict that by the match of 2012 there will be enough u.s. graduates to fill ever single residency position in the u.s. making FMG's unnecessary.

I love the AMA. If they couldnt outlaw ross then they would simple make it unnecessary. Pretty smart if you ask me.

Do your research online and verify what I am saying is true. If you are just now entering Ross you may find yourself having a hard time finding a residency in the U.S.

I am not a putting Ross down. I just graduated from Ross and I am happy that I have been giving the chance to become an M.D. . I am just saying do the research and you may find things are about to get alot harder for FMG's.

After researching this a little, all I can say is it is pretty scary for those that will be matching in 2012 and after. This would add a whole new level of difficulty for foreign medical graduates trying to match into the residency of their choice or any residency for that matter.

[DrunkenDancer]

After researching this a little, all I can say is it is pretty scary for those that will be matching in 2012 and after. This would add a whole new level of difficulty for foreign medical graduates trying to match into the residency of their choice or any residency for that matter.

You don't need to wait until 2012, there were a lot of Ross grads who didn't get a residency this year, one guy I heard about has been applying for three straight cycles and couldnt find a spot, I would guess that approximately 10% of Ross grads didn't match this year and will be added on to the even larger number of FMGs who will be re-applying next year. Eventually with Ross you will have 600 applying for a residency straight out of school and another 300 Ross grads who are re-applying, so DeVry is making a buck off of leading students to believe that the M.D. at Ross is a good career move in today's market . . .

[x1433]

Combine this information with the discussion about the proposed changes on the USMLE for 2011 (Discussed in a previous thread) makes me worry about future matches. Hopefully, the government will decide there is a shortage of doctors and increase the number of residency training spots. Otherwise I guess, we all hope that no changes will be made to the scoring of the USMLE so the foreign medical graduates have a chance to shine with a high score rather than just get a score that says they pass like every other medical student.

[rokshana]

, one guy I heard about has been applying for three straight cycles and couldnt find a spot...


if someone hasn't been able to match in 3 cycles, there is something else goiing on...

[jim]

if someone hasn't been able to match in 3 cycles, there is something else goiing on...

what???you mean 3 tries to pass step 1, and i should rethink that nuerosurgery residency????

[rokshana]

what???you mean 3 tries to pass step 1, and i should rethink that nuerosurgery residency????

no i think he meant 3 match cycles....

and, well, yes....:D

[thomasfx10]

I am just curious .. what are some reasons why someone would not get Matched?

[NYladoo]

I am just curious .. what are some reasons why someone would not get Matched?

1). Aiming for a residency in which you don't have the scores or fulfill other requirements.

2). Too many attempts in passing USMLE steps 1 and 2.

3). Passing steps with too low of a score.

4). Not having stellar LORs.

Note: This is only my opinion.

[ndfrspd]

Do your research. Ross will never reach 1000 per class. There are a limited number of residency spots in u.s. programs. The number of residency spots is not scheduled to increase over the next 5 years. The number of u.s. graduates in the u.s. has been fixed at around 18000 for the past 30 years. The number of u.s. residency spots has been fixed ast @26500 for the past 15 years. As of 2006 the number of u.s. graduates began increasing at a rate of @15% per year and is scheduled to increase the same for the next 5 years due to increased enrollment. In addition there were 7 new medical schools charter in the u.s. in 2006 that are scheduled to produce an additional 1500 students per year by 2011. Combined with increased enrollment (at the request of the AMA) and the increased number of u.s. medical schools, experts predict that by the match of 2012 there will be enough u.s. graduates to fill ever single residency position in the u.s. making FMG's unnecessary.

I love the AMA. If they couldnt outlaw ross then they would simple make it unnecessary. Pretty smart if you ask me.

Do your research online and verify what I am saying is true. If you are just now entering Ross you may find yourself having a hard time finding a residency in the U.S.

I am not a putting Ross down. I just graduated from Ross and I am happy that I have been giving the chance to become an M.D. . I am just saying do the research and you may find things are about to get alot harder for FMG's.


I find this VERY hard to believe. Medical schools are not even adding that many spots onto their accepting class. The total graduates for 2006 and 2007 were 15962 and 16139 respectively. Thats an increase of about a 1.1% increase!...NOT 15%. check for yourself at the AAMC website. To me it seems more like a gradual increase of about 100-200 every year more than a Huge 15% increase. Also realize that to reach 27000 graduates, medical schools will have to increase their spots in the United States greatly and thats a huge understatement. I agree on your thought that it will become more difficult in the future to gain a US residency spot as an IMG or FMG...but nowhere near the extent you speak of. Even if we predict an insanely modest 5% increase from 2007 to 2012, we are talking about 21,000 graduates...thats a hugley optimistic report. If we use the more reasonable and probable 1.1% increase rate, graduates dont even break 17,000 by 2012. Dont expect much to change. Medical schools are very reluctant to add more seats onto their class and to increase graduates, you first have to increase enrollment spots!! anyone have any thoughts on this? do i have it completley wrong?

[Wajaro]

The current economic climate may make it difficult for people wanting to be doctors to obtain students loans so if this does actually take place, Ross may actually see it's enrollment drop, not increase.

[Wajaro]

I am just curious .. what are some reasons why someone would not get Matched?

Because they got a 186 x2 and applied to Derm or orthro only!!!

[SXD1000]

I am hoping to start in May 09 and graduate if all goes well in May 2012. After reading your comments I am starting to get really nervous about a good residency spot.

I mean I don't want to do general medicine and not saying there is anything wrong with that but I like to specialize in something. Plus we might have a tough time even matching with general.

So, what are the realistic chances of us getting a good residency if we get a good boards scores in the future since we are going to be FMGs.

Please post your thoughts and comments even research done on this.

[ndfrspd]

I am hoping to start in May 09 and graduate if all goes well in May 2012. After reading your comments I am starting to get really nervous about a good residency spot.

I mean I don't want to do general medicine and not saying there is anything wrong with that but I like to specialize in something. Plus we might have a tough time even matching with general.

So, what are the realistic chances of us getting a good residency if we get a good boards scores in the future since we are going to be FMGs.

Please post your thoughts and comments even research done on this.

we definetley all have reason to worry about residency spots in the future, but even with the worst predictions, there will be plenty of residency spots open even for 2013. Also remember that the match isn't just a blindly random matching where stats have nothing to do with anything. If that were the case, then we should worry as graduates from US medschools go up. However, since stats DO matter, remember that with good stats, you have a MUCH higher chance of matching into w/e residency it is you want. Just do well in medschool and get those higher step scores and you should have no problem matching into something. But be reasonable about what you apply to. If you just apply to say vascular surgery and plastics/reconstructive with low step scores your not gonna match. Dont for any reason though think taht getting a residency spot is easy, it is diffcult and is going to become more difficult espeically for FMG's and IMG's...so all you can do is kick some butt and you'll most porbably get the residency you want...or so i assume...am i assuming anythign wrong? anyone?

[ScottsdaleIndian]

we definetley all have reason to worry about residency spots in the future, but even with the worst predictions, there will be plenty of residency spots open even for 2013. Also remember that the match isn't just a blindly random matching where stats have nothing to do with anything. If that were the case, then we should worry as graduates from US medschools go up. However, since stats DO matter, remember that with good stats, you have a MUCH higher chance of matching into w/e residency it is you want. Just do well in medschool and get those higher step scores and you should have no problem matching into something. But be reasonable about what you apply to. If you just apply to say vascular surgery and plastics/reconstructive with low step scores your not gonna match. Dont for any reason though think taht getting a residency spot is easy, it is diffcult and is going to become more difficult espeically for FMG's and IMG's...so all you can do is kick some butt and you'll most porbably get the residency you want...or so i assume...am i assuming anythign wrong? anyone?

so okay I'm assuming those of us starting now or soon will be okay (if it came to anything worse, I'd even be fine with matching in something general somewhere horrible like South Dakota or Idaho), but do you guys think that means schools like Ross and SGU who almost solely cater to US citizens/students will be pretty screwed 10-15 years from now when like 15 more US schools do open and tons of others expand? just wondering

[ndfrspd]

when like 15 more US schools do open and tons of others expand? just wondering

15 more US schools are opening?? lcme accredited schools in the US??

[ScottsdaleIndian]

15 more US schools are opening?? lcme accredited schools in the US??

lol no no I was exagerating in general. I mean I've seen lists on VMD of atleast about 6 or 7 new schools definately opening in the US in a decade though, I have NO clue for sure though. Honestly, never mind, there's no point in getting into this again, doesn't affect anyone here

[thezohan]

http://www.studentdoctor.net/2008/10/record-enrollment-at-us-allopathic-medical-schools/

So the first year enrollment at US schools for 2008 is about 18,000 students, so unless residency slots are increased it does sound like it will be a slightly tighter squeeze than previously. you can see that this year's residency match was nearly 16,000 US seniors, so when I graduate there will be 2,000 fewer slots for IMGs if the status quo stays the same. Also, not sure about DO enrollment this year.

However, I have a feeling that a few more residency slots will start opening up soon due the rhetoric about a physician shortage, it just takes a little more time than med school enrollment since the AMA seems to hinder the process as much as possible (actually I think it is the special review committees for each specialty that are responsible for keeping competitive specialties so hard to get into.) Family medicine has actually been losing slots until recently because they did not all fill up.

Maybe someone can correct me, but I believe that the AMA lobbied to keep a revision of the residency funding bill from being passed.

On a bit of a tangent, does anyone know why when I look at the residency match results, there are some programs in competitive specialties like Radiology that do not fill up? True that one place with two open slots was in rural southwestern Illinois but are those places that could be conceivably scrambled into? I know that some prestigious programs purposely do not fill things like Anesthesiology because they expect transfers later, but is the rural midwest that discriminating or does no one want Radiology bad enough to spend 5 years in a small town?

[medic300107]

again different situations, not everyone who goes into ross gets a diploma, also as long as ross graduates maintain a good reputation the DOE would be hard pressed to find a way to shut them down or remove funding under their grandfather clause.