what should i do ?

[dr_evil]

hi all ,

am a med. student @ cairo university , i failed my 2nd year due to causes that are out of my control , knowing that i finished the first year with straight As........

i'm considering to transfer to a med. school in the EE because am fed up with the conditions of the faculty here and the quality of education is also very poor and retarded ...

now i need to know the universities which offer english programs , knowing that an thinking of going to LSMU in ukraine ......

[shrey]

Bulgaria (Eastern Europe, part of EU):
Sofia University
Pleven University
University of Varna

Romania (Eastern Europe, part of EU)
Oradea University
University of Sibiu

Poland (Central Europe, part of EU)
University of Warsaw
Poznan Medical University

Hungary (Central Europe, part of EU)
Szeged University
Debrecen Medical University
PECS

Czech Republic (Central Europe, part of EU)
Charles University (5 different faculties of Medicine)
Palacky University
Masaryk University

Slovakia (Central Europe, I don't know it's status):
Jessenius Medical University
Comenius Medical University

Croatia (Central Europe, not part of EU)
Zagreb Medical University

Ukraine (Eastern Europe, not part of EU)
Lugansk State Medical University
Zaporzhye Medical University
Odessa Medical State University

Serbia (Easter Europe, not part of EU)
University of Belgrade


I wouldn't really recommend Ukraine as an option as the resources aren't all that good and since it does have any good (rather valid) recognition. Plus the Ukrainian economy isn't really doing that well. So, \I wouldn't risk going there. I would strongly advise that you look into medical universities in countries that are part of the EU (as you will have many more options when you graduate).

[dr_evil]

thank you very much for your reply ,

[dr_evil]

i want to know if there is some web site that lests the accredited schools ??

because lugnask sent me an email saying that "Lugansk state medical university's degree is recognized by the world health organization, U.S. Education Department, General medical council of England, European Union countries and more than 40 countries" and i have no way of confirming that.........

[Chemist_11]

Basically, what they are saying is that the school is IMED listed - one of the most basic requirements for an institution teaching medicine. 99.9% of all medical schools awarding degrees have this listing, and as you can probably imagine it doesn't say anything special about a particular school.

[devildoc8404]

I would recommend looking very closely at the medical education requirements and credentials for the area in which you would someday like to practice medicine as a starting point. From there, you can winnow the list down according to program, location, cost, etc. For example, if you wish to practice in the US, you might also look for such credentials as California approval (listed on this site in many places)... although it is not a requirement for practice in most other states.

[shrey]

I very much agree with devildoc8404. If you're interested in practicing in the States in future, then it would be wise to check for schools that are CA-accredited. The only english programs offered in Europe which are recognized by the CA board are the ones in Central Europe i.e. Poland, Czech Repubilc and Hungary and these might be slightly more expensive options than the Eastern European universities).

But I've also heard good feedback from Comenius and Jessenius in Slovakia, Zagreb Medical University in Croatia. And if you are considering between Romania and Bulgaria (although both aren't very good, they still part of the EU which has inheritant advantages), you can perhaps go to any one and then try to transfer later. I wouldn't really recommend Lugansk because even I sought it as an option but it's credentials are quite dubious (and they also have multiple sites that are operated through agents so that's a warning signal).

If you don't mind me asking, where do you want to practice?

[Maya-08]

Anyone know about University of silesia, I am applying through Hope medical college. What are living conditions are like in katowice dorms, also anyone knows about the education at University of silesia. Please anykind of information regarding this university would help. thanks.

[dr_evil]

thank you guys for replying ,
u r saying that romania and bulgharia aren't very good ,but am sure that they are waaaaaay better than it's here in egypt ..

and about the practicing question : am thinking of practicing in one of the following countries in order :
1-us
2-canada
3-australia
4-UAE "where i was born and raised "

[shrey]

Well Dr_evil, I would recommend that you stick to one country in which you wanna practice and then work for it. If you really wanna go to the States, then I recommend that you go to one of the universities that are CA-approves (i.e. in Central Europe and mind you that these univs. are slightly more expensive than the ones in Easter Europe plus the living costs are also high).

It is very hard to practice in Canada as they've made it harder now (but I heard that there was some sort of legislation passed recently where they are going to make it easy for european medical grads. I'm not sure about the validity of this statement).

Australia - Yes this is a very good option and it's becoming a favourite amongst many medical grads throughout the world (especially europe). Again the central european univs. are a good bet because we have so many australian grads. coming here for research and vice versa and they highly recommend universities in Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic (other than of course the US and UK).

Finally UAE - I don't know much about this route but I guess any medical degree (that is satisfactorily recognized) should entitle you to practice in the UAE (and I'm assuming you're a UAE citizen so it should be all the more easier).

[shrey]

Hey there Maya-08, I wouldn't really trust Hope Medical College as they had some serious accreditation problems in the past (check previous threads for more detail). I would personally suggest that if you have an opportunity, try and make a visit to the university so that you can personally see how the things work there. This also goes to dr_evil. If you can afford this option, then it's best recommended. If not, then try and contact the university directly and see if Hope medical college is an authorized representative of the University of Silesia. Also try to obtain some of the student's contacts so that you can personally keep in touch with them and ask them regarding the conditions, quality of education and other criteria. Good luck.

[dr_evil]

thank you very much for the fast reply , 'cause am done with the conditions here ,can u imagine having 1000 students in a lecture room ??? or even 300 in one lab that has no functioning or outdated equipment ??? or over 60 students standing over one cadaver in the anatomy lab ??? a college dean doing whatever he likes whenever he likes it no matter what the students and tha faculty staff have to say about it ???and so much more that i can write a book about my 2 year experince here in egypt.....

[dr_evil]

any body have information about "Danylo Halytsky Lviv State Medical University" in ukraine ????

it's approved in CA according to the medical board of california web site

[Chemist_11]

As people have previosuly said, you should ideally check such schools out in person if possible, who knows - you may well end up in a similar position in the Ukraine.

[diogenes]

I very much agree with devildoc8404. If you're interested in practicing in the States in future, then it would be wise to check for schools that are CA-accredited. The only english programs offered in Europe which are recognized by the CA board are the ones in Central Europe i.e. Poland, Czech Repubilc and Hungary .................

Not so. By no means all the English courses in the aforementioned countries are Cali-recognized.
any body have information about "Danylo Halytsky Lviv State Medical University" in ukraine ????

it's approved in CA according to the medical board of california web site
Regarding California recognition, please note the Ukrainian language course may well be recognized but the English lang. one (if there is one) is not. English language courses will be listed separately if recognized (see rubric at the beginning of the Cali. list page).

As people have previosuly said, you should ideally check such schools out in person if possible, who knows - you may well end up in a similar position in the Ukraine.
What Chem11 said is of vital importance. Please visit first: the cost of a week's stay is nothing compared to the total cost of your medical education.

[shrey]

Not so. By no means all the English courses in the aforementioned countries are Cali-recognized.

I just said that they were recognized too. Please read what I wrote again.

Regarding California recognition, please note the Ukrainian language course may well be recognized but the English lang. one (if there is one) is not. English language courses will be listed separately if recognized (see rubric at the beginning of the Cali. list page).

Yes, all the medical programs conducted in their own languages are CA recognized; however there are very few english medical programs that are CA-accredited (those are only in Central Europe). You can go to the CA medical board website and check for the list of schools that are CA-accredited.


What Chem11 said is of vital importance. Please visit first: the cost of a week's stay is nothing compared to the total cost of your medical education.

I, too agree with this. I can't stress on how valuable it would be just to visit the univ. and get a first-hand perspective as to how things are.

[diogenes]

I just said that they were recognized too. Please read what I wrote
again....
I read what you wrote and I did better - I quoted it!
Shrey, I'm sorry but there sometimes seems to be a big mismatch between what you write and what you think you have written (or your intended meaning).
The words I quoted are, I believe, your own!
"The only english programs offered in Europe which are recognized by the CA board are the ones in Central Europe i.e. Poland, Czech Repubilc and Hungary"
That's very different from "I just said they were recognized too". Most people unfamiliar with the scene would take your words to mean (in the absence of any suitable qualification) that any English language course in the countries you mention is Cali-approved: the alternative interpretation would be quite tautologous.

[shrey]

Right...I'm sorry I didn't realize that. Well let me correct myself by saying that there are very few schools in Europe that are CA-approved (most of them are in Central Europe ie. Poland, Hungary, and Czech Republic). I hope that clarifies it. I'm sorry about the previous statement that I made.

[devildoc8404]

Dr. Evil: No, I would not say that the medical education in Bulgaria is bad. In fact, I would say the opposite... while the medical education facilities in some Bulgarian schools are (sometimes sorely) lacking, their physicians are - from what I have been able to determine - very proficient and well-prepared for a medical career. Bulgarian grads can be found in a number of residency programs in the US. I cannot comment on Romania.

[shrey]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that Bulgarian Education was bad. In fact I recommended that as one of the options (especially as Bulgaria is now part of the EU); and due to it's Soviet impact, I'm sure it's educational standards are quite high but nevertheless I doubt the medical technology and facilities there. You might have to check out previous posts regarding Bulgaria. I still think that there is a high problem of corruption in that country and Romania (at least from what I've heard and read). So do check up on that.

[devildoc8404]

Shrey: I was in Bulgaria (Sofia) last month. In point of fact, the medical facilities run the gamut there... several of the hospitals I saw were nicer than the medical center where I currently work in New England. Other hospitals and clinics were complete dives. Regardless, the medical training appears to be excellent, and the physicians know their stuff. That's the main thing, IMHO. I really am not interested in spending the rest of my life there, but I do want a solid education. Bulgaria fits the bill on those counts.

[dr_evil]

i want to thank all of you for the information and help u provided ....

after what i've read on this site and alot of googling i've decided that lugansk is not worth it , and now am focusing on Sofia which seems to be a very good and recognized university ..i've e-mailed them and still waiting for a reply..

[devildoc8404]

Dr_Evil: Remember there are other faculties in Bulgaria, as well, which may or may not meet your needs. Pleven, Plovdiv, and Varna jump to mind. You can compare and contrast, anyway, if you decide that BG is the place for you. Good luck in your search and applications! :)

[bingo08]

Hi everyone!
Just got accepted for Fall 2008 to UZMS...can't decide between that and St. George's Univ in the Caribbean. I would like to have the option of residency in the US if possible but is there any way I can do clinical rotations in the US from UZMS?
I don't know which to choose! Anyone know more about UZMS clinicals and training?
thanks:)

[shrey]

Congratulations!!! You have crossed one of the easiest hurdles....there's more to come....but nevertheless have fun and if you ask me, I would recommend St.Geroge's Univ. just because it's a 4 year program and it also has some clinical affiliations with some of the teaching hospitals in the US (in fact there are a few medical students who've posted their blogs online where they were even able to transfer to an American med school in their 3rd year).....so the choice is yours!!!

[bingo08]

Thanks! I'm really happy I'm in..I just wish I had more information about the program and how people liked it, etc. The cost of UZMS compared to SGU is really attractive to me as wel..

[Maya-08]

Hey there Maya-08, I wouldn't really trust Hope Medical College as they had some serious accreditation problems in the past (check previous threads for more detail). I would personally suggest that if you have an opportunity, try and make a visit to the university so that you can personally see how the things work there. This also goes to dr_evil. If you can afford this option, then it's best recommended. If not, then try and contact the university directly and see if Hope medical college is an authorized representative of the University of Silesia. Also try to obtain some of the student's contacts so that you can personally keep in touch with them and ask them regarding the conditions, quality of education and other criteria. Good luck.
Hi shrey, Thanks alot for the information. Well I dont think so If I have time and money to go and visit the school. I am late for US medical schools basically at this point I have no choice but consider other schools outside US, I dont want to do masters because I dont want extra debit . Do you know anyone who is currently studying at university of silesia, I tried to find people that are currently going there if 50% say good things about the school the other 50% would say bad I m not sure what to do. I called New york Wycoff (sorry for spelling mistake) to assure the rotation and they said HMI is affilated besides that I dont know much about the school and living conditions. I talked to james wolmack, guy from HMI he seems pretty convincing about alot of things. Do u have anymore information or can you guide me where to go on value med to get more threads about hsi school, I m new to this website so dosent have much info regarding this either.
THanks ALOT

[shrey]

Hey there Maya, did you try and check the Univ. of Silesia website? I'm sure they would have a list of contact numbers for their departments and administrative office etc. You can perhaps ask if there are any other americans, or whoever studying there and request them to give their contact address or email. I suggest you look at some previous (old) thread regarding the HMI affiliated schools just to be on the safe side because many people have regretted making their decisions before. So I suggest you check the Univ. website and continue from there on.

[devildoc8404]

Maya, the guy at HMI sounds convincing because he is a salesman. YOU DO NOT NEED AN AGENT to get into a European medical school. It is a complete and utter waste of money. If a school were to tell me that they require application through an agency, I would make that my last communication with that school. Seriously, look over VMD and find a school that will allow you to apply without wasting thousands of dollars... there are plenty of them, and it is not hard. The hard part is not the application, the hard part is school and boards. Good luck! (Oh, and a 50/50 split on the reviews of a school is not exactly glowing references, is it? In most classes, a 50% gets you a big, fat "F.")

[Maya-08]

Hi I called university of silesia in poland and they said I have to go through HMI in order to get into 4-year MD english program, I know the fees are crazy but I dont have any choice at this point. Have u been to any of these universities affilated with HMI????
If u have can u please put some more light on professors over there? i no this university is not near US standards but do they computer labs and stuff like that? I heared living conditions are not bad can u also put some light on that?

anykind of response from people who are currently enroll in this program or went to this program, will be helpful.

THANKS









Maya, the guy at HMI sounds convincing because he is a salesman. YOU DO NOT NEED AN AGENT to get into a European medical school. It is a complete and utter waste of money. If a school were to tell me that they require application through an agency, I would make that my last communication with that school. Seriously, look over VMD and find a school that will allow you to apply without wasting thousands of dollars... there are plenty of them, and it is not hard. The hard part is not the application, the hard part is school and boards. Good luck! (Oh, and a 50/50 split on the reviews of a school is not exactly glowing references, is it? In most classes, a 50% gets you a big, fat "F.")

[devildoc8404]

Maya! You DO have a choice at this point. You can tell HMI to get lost, choose schools that will not require an agent (there are plenty of them out there, look here on the VMD site for examples), and send in your applications. It is NOT too late, and you are certainly NOT required to give any agency thousands upon thousands of dollars to get admitted to a medical school in Central or Eastern Europe. :shock:

I'm not just spouting here, that is exactly what I would do (er, HAVE done) in order to attend medical school this Fall.

Good luck.

[Maya-08]

LOL well I would love to say something like, anyways can u list some schools that do not require an agent, please. I want to go somewhere in europe, but I want to do my rotations in US.
I am not sure if I should consider carribean or not??? I was thinking about st.george university, I m not sure if it is too late to apply there, I compared HMI and st.george the tution is way much higher for st.george compare to HMI, and plus alot of people said living conditions are horrible over there. can you please give me some info about this school if u can and also can u list some school that are in europe and will allow me to do rotations in US and they do not require an agent?

THANKS alot for helping!:)






Maya! You DO have a choice at this point. You can tell HMI to get lost, choose schools that will not require an agent (there are plenty of them out there, look here on the VMD site for examples), and send in your applications. It is NOT too late, and you are certainly NOT required to give any agency thousands upon thousands of dollars to get admitted to a medical school in Central or Eastern Europe. :shock:

I'm not just spouting here, that is exactly what I would do (er, HAVE done) in order to attend medical school this Fall.

Good luck.

[shrey]

Hey there Maya,
Most of the Central or European medical schools have some sort of agents: official and unofficial. And I wouldn't really rely on either just because you would end up paying tons of dollars for very little help. I would recommend the schools in Central Europe (ie. Poland, Hungary, and Czech Republic) in case you want to do your clinical rotation in the States. I do know that there are a few other schools in Eastern Europe (I think Zagreb is one of them) that allow students to set up rotations in the States.

But the central european ones are best recommended for American students as they have had tons of them (many of whom went back to the States for rotations from the 3rd year onwards).

I also should mention that the Central European medical schools are a bit more expensive than the Eastern European ones. Regarding the Carribean schools, I would strongly advise you to look only at the top recognized ones as the others are having problems with approval and stuff. (I think Ross, SABA and two others are well known and have a good reputation).

[devildoc8404]

Maya, there are a ton of options for applying to European schools without an agent... Croatia - U Zagreb; Poland - Jagiellonian, Warsaw, etc.; Bulgaria - Sofia, Varna, Pleven, etc.; Czech Rep - Charles U; Hungary - Semmelweis. That is just a partial list, search this site and you will find plenty of options.

From what I have seen, you may not be able to do ALL of your clinical rotations in the States. You will likely be able to do some of them there if you are super interested in that. If you want to do all of your rotations in the States, the Carib is a decent option, albeit often more expensive for tuition. Check with the individual schools (NOT agents, who can tell you whatever they think you want to hear) about their "away" rotations.

You don't need to do your rotations in the States to match in the States, by the way. There are docs posting on this site who say that they did all of their rotations in Europe and matched here just fine. I believe that the biggest determining factor will be your Step One scores.

[KluverB]

Listen to devildoc. Doing rotations in the US will help some, of course. It certainly helps to get some decent LORs from US physicians. Still, you're much better off studying you a** off to score higher on the USMLEs than you will doing scut work at some "affiliated" hospital. Go to a school with a better track record, no agents, etc. Do some electives in North America. For example, UJ/PUMS/etc encourage you to do summer clerkships each year. And most of these places will likely allow you to do 3-6 months of electives come 4th year. You really don't need much more. It won't help you pass USMLEs. But LORs help. Even if you may have to arrange these yourself, in the end, I think it works out a lot better than dealing with any agents.

[shrey]

devildoc8404: most of the schools you mentioned have agents of some sort (please try doing a search online and you'll find tons of them). In fact I did some research regarding Charles Univ, Prague; Pleven, Sofia, Bulgaria; and Zagreb, Croatia - all of them do have authorized and unauthorized agents.

Maya: It's true that you don't need to do all you rotations in the US. However doing a few in specified areas of interest will be quite beneficial as you get LORs from American professors. Also doing such rotations will give you a better hands-on-experience which is one of the important criteria that American schools look into when considering IMG candidates. Luckily, the American schools don't really look at your individual scores for every subject that you have taken in medical school as there is no proper way of evaluating such scores (they just look for good performance); that being said, the USMLEs is the most important means of selecting IMG candidates, so make sure you have that goal in mind from Day 1 and prepare accordingly (although your preparation actually starts after the 1st year).

With the European mode of curriculum, most of the students take the Step 1 at the end of the 3rd or the beginning of the 4th year and the Step 2 at the end of the 5th or the beginning of the 6th year (this obviously only applies to the 6 year English programs in Europe; the 4year ones are similar to those in the States).

The best way to find out the credentials, credibility of the medical program at a school is to call them personally or even speak to students from that university (DON'T TRUST AGENTS!!! unless they're authorized ofcourse; they will try and rip you off and you will regret such a decision later).

Regarding clinical rotations, most of them are open to students in the final year. However here at Charles Univ., I've seen quite a few American students starting their rotations from the 3rd year (I think 4-6 weeks is the maximum time you can do each rotation...but I'm not sure about this so please do check it up). There are quite a few universities that offer rotations/electives or observerships/preceptorships for international visiting students (Rochester Univ, New York; Mt.Sinai, New York; UCSF, CA; UCSD, CA; GWU, DC and tons of other ones but the recognized med schools usually charge some sort of a "tuition" for the rotation; other ones are usually free with only a fee for the application (and ofcourse you will also have to bear the accomodation and other personal expenses).

[devildoc8404]

The schools may well accept some agents, but my point was that - according to what I have read here and in other places - they don't require them for application. I frankly would not choose to apply through an agent, whether s/he was officially "accepted" by the school or not.

[Maya-08]

well thanks alot shrey and devildoc, I wasnt sure about the rotations, as far as I know if u go through HMI or other schools in carribean u come back to US in ur 3rd year and complete all ur rotations in 3rd and 4th year and then u take USMLE 2, but what u guys told me it dosent match from what I heared. IS that true ?
shrey and devil doc I was wondering if u guys dont mind me asking which medical school u guys r going to?












devildoc8404: most of the schools you mentioned have agents of some sort (please try doing a search online and you'll find tons of them). In fact I did some research regarding Charles Univ, Prague; Pleven, Sofia, Bulgaria; and Zagreb, Croatia - all of them do have authorized and unauthorized agents.

Maya: It's true that you don't need to do all you rotations in the US. However doing a few in specified areas of interest will be quite beneficial as you get LORs from American professors. Also doing such rotations will give you a better hands-on-experience which is one of the important criteria that American schools look into when considering IMG candidates. Luckily, the American schools don't really look at your individual scores for every subject that you have taken in medical school as there is no proper way of evaluating such scores (they just look for good performance); that being said, the USMLEs is the most important means of selecting IMG candidates, so make sure you have that goal in mind from Day 1 and prepare accordingly (although your preparation actually starts after the 1st year).

With the European mode of curriculum, most of the students take the Step 1 at the end of the 3rd or the beginning of the 4th year and the Step 2 at the end of the 5th or the beginning of the 6th year (this obviously only applies to the 6 year English programs in Europe; the 4year ones are similar to those in the States).

The best way to find out the credentials, credibility of the medical program at a school is to call them personally or even speak to students from that university (DON'T TRUST AGENTS!!! unless they're authorized ofcourse; they will try and rip you off and you will regret such a decision later).

Regarding clinical rotations, most of them are open to students in the final year. However here at Charles Univ., I've seen quite a few American students starting their rotations from the 3rd year (I think 4-6 weeks is the maximum time you can do each rotation...but I'm not sure about this so please do check it up). There are quite a few universities that offer rotations/electives or observerships/preceptorships for international visiting students (Rochester Univ, New York; Mt.Sinai, New York; UCSF, CA; UCSD, CA; GWU, DC and tons of other ones but the recognized med schools usually charge some sort of a "tuition" for the rotation; other ones are usually free with only a fee for the application (and ofcourse you will also have to bear the accomodation and other personal expenses).

[devildoc8404]

You can set up your own US rotations, depending on how many weeks you have of away rotations... you don't need to pay an agency to do it for you. They do not have your best interests in mind, anyway, only you do.

You can take Step Two anytime after the MS2 (of 4) or MS3 (of 6) years, and you don't need to be in the States to do so.

I am currently deciding which school to attend this Fall between three of them in Europe. I previously attended an osteopathic institution in the States.

[shrey]

Hey there Maya-08, unfortunately most of the Central European schools (or any other ones in Eastern Europe for that matter) don't really help students with setting up clinical rotations in the States (except for the 4 year Hungarian and Polish ones).

So you have to do that yourself; but it's really not that hard. Many people seem to be doing fine in that category.

I'm currently a first year student at the Charles University First Faculty of Medicine, Prague.

Here's my advice:
In Central Europe, getting in is NOT hard. Staying in is the killer....many many students get "weeded out" in the first 3 years and then it stays constant more or less (not because it gets any easier but because students get used to studying harder and for longer hours). That being said, these schools (especially the central european ones) help you gain a very strong grasp on the fundamentals (which will make facilitate your preparation for Step 1). Although the system is not easy. At my school, we take about 7-9 subjects per semester. That being said, there are 5 main exams that one needs to pass in the first year: biophysics (at the end of 1st sem.), medical greco-latin terminology, anatomy, histology, cell biology (at the end of 1st sem.)

[hnbaby]

thank you very much for your reply

[Emmahappy123]

So, detailed! Lol!