Greenbook rotations?

[IAUPREMED]

Do IAU students have the oppurtunity of doing ALL rotations greenbook? Let me clarify that as all CORE rotations being greenbook? And what rotations will be at what hospitals? This is my number one concern, as the greenbook rotation issue is very crucial.

[iaustudent06]

Verify IAU's hospital rotations with ACGME... here are helpful links:

ACGME Accredited Program and Institutional Listing - Public Access (http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/)

http://www.valuemd.com/aua-medical-school-clinical-forum/139617-what-greenbook-rotation.html

[Sree Cheruku]

Based on your school's website, you have JPH in Chicago, Harbor in Baltimore and some other hospital in Louisiana which I'm not familiar with.

JPH is green for family medicine and nothing else, though the hospital (and maybe even your school) will tell you that it's Green for everything.

Harbor is a great hospital and it's greenbook for IM and Ob/Gyn (through the U of Maryland). However, not all schools have an affiliation with the Ob/Gyn department of that hospital. SMU is the only one I know for sure that does.

The Louisiana hospital is green for family only as far as I can see.

You're out of luck in terms of finding Green rotations for Peds, Surgery and possibly Ob/Gyn. But, it might not be the end of the world. What states are you looking to practice in?

[IAUPREMED]

i dont really have any particular state right now however, as long as I at least have my cores all greenbook, then this keeps my options open for a variety of states. Is there a way to setup my own greenbook rotations through an agency or anything?

[iaustudent06]

You forgot Psych also Sree...

Anyone know what states require greenbook electives in addition to the cores?

[argazul]

Texas requires all rotations to be greenbook, cores and electives.

[iaustudent06]

Alright, besides TX and PA, any other states requiring greenbook electives?

[MDPWR]

Hello there,

So they say that BIG 4 Caribbean school are 50 Stats practice schools.
What about their green book rotation, for example like Saba and AUC do they have all green book rotation?

What if you don't get green book rotation? Am I out of luck for Cali residency and license if you graduate from the so call big 4 schools.

Appreciate your help.

[iaustudent06]

Hello there,

So they say that BIG 4 Caribbean school are 50 Stats practice schools.
What about their green book rotation, for example like Saba and AUC do they have all green book rotation?

What if you don't get green book rotation? Am I out of luck for Cali residency and license if you graduate from the so call big 4 schools.

Appreciate your help.

First, who do you think the four big schools are? Generally, people think its SGU, Ross, Saba, and AUC (supposedly, all clinicals are ACGME with AUC?, not positive though) in which case you should be ok if you research a little.

Rule 1. You must attend a California approved school or else you will NEVER be eligible for licensure or obtain residency or conduct clinicals in California.
Welcome to the Medical Board of California - International Medical Schools Disapproved by the State of California (http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools_unapproved.html)

unless you sneak in though the VA system (possibly & unlikely, i'm not sure on this and wouldn't put all my eggs into this basket)
http://www.valuemd.com/st-matthews-university-school-medicine/58951-states-disapprove-limit-licensure-smu-grads-41.html

Rule 2. Clinical rotations can be "blue book", in other words any core or elective can be done if the hospital is "green" for Family Practice. This is where the term "umbrella" is coined, since family practice encompasses a variety of things.
http://www.valuemd.com/clinical-rotations-forum/31649-what-greenbook-rotations.html

This is used by not-so-difficult states also (especially Illinois, leading to all schools using JPH in Chicago for ever rotation, hoping students obtain licensure under the "umbrella/blue book" rotations, since JPH is a ghetto but "green" FP hospital)

BUT (for california) RULE #1 HAS TO BE FOLLOWED FIRST FOR ALL CLASSWORK, TRANSFER INTO/OUT OF AN NON-APPROVED SCHOOL, DURING ANY TIME CAN NOT BE ALLOWED, unless you repeat the course or clinical at an approved institution.
http://www.valuemd.com/st-matthews-university-school-medicine/58951-states-disapprove-limit-licensure-smu-grads.html

[IAUPREMED]

I am very concerned that technically IAU only has 2 greenbook cores, can we try to arrange your own? I spoke to a few of the senior students that are in the process of starting clinicals or are just passing step 1, i think a few want to transfer out to ross or other larger institutions after step 1 that acually have decent some or all green book rotations. I dont know what to do, I am already in IAU, but applied to other schools like AUA, MUA, Sint Eustatius, St. James, they all have some decent greenbook clinicals. I dont know if I should start IAU or just say yes to one of the others and go there instead. I just need some insight from some of the seniors and how they are tackling this issue at this crucial point after step 1, I am sure there not going to just take 2 core greenbooks and be satisfied with that and probably will have problems being licensed in alot of states.
thanks

[iaustudent06]

I am very concerned that technically IAU only has 2 greenbook cores, can we try to arrange your own? I spoke to a few of the senior students that are in the process of starting clinicals or are just passing step 1, i think a few want to transfer out to ross or other larger institutions after step 1 that acually have decent some or all green book rotations. I dont know what to do, I am already in IAU, but applied to other schools like AUA, MUA, Sint Eustatius, St. James, they all have some decent greenbook clinicals. I dont know if I should start IAU or just say yes to one of the others and go there instead. I just need some insight from some of the seniors and how they are tackling this issue at this crucial point after step 1, I am sure there not going to just take 2 core greenbooks and be satisfied with that and probably will have problems being licensed in alot of states.
thanks

First, if you are already at IAU, it is better to concentrate and score high on Step One via studying hard in each course, then integrating your last semester with kaplan and question banks such as UsmleWorld (UW). No decent school will accept you as a transfer AND take credits for any basic science courses already completed, you'll have to start all over. A few states will still allow you to work without all greenbook rotations, so hit that hurdle when you get to it.

There may be a way to transfer to another Caribbean medical school such as Ross (most infamous, especially after the Devry buy-out -- I met so many Ross-transfers during kaplan and ICM -- I think that was the only thing I learned in ICM). I have already looked into this, but in my case, I was asked to STILL repeat their ICM in Miami. I am not willing to redo ICM for 14k in Miami so I have scheduled a meeting/interview to discuss options with Ross. Keep in mind, transferring into 50-state school will NOT make you automatically eligible in all 50 states (most notably, California).

I personally know of one who transferred to AUA and another to St. E, both from Spartan (St. E is not NY-approved, but has loans at least for clinical years, supposedly)

[IAUPREMED]

very good responce. I understand what the situation is now. You brought up a good point that even if we do transfer to Ross or the top 3, we still are NOT eligible for all 50 states as the basic sciences are not done there, I am just looking for good, reliable and available clinicals that are majority greenbook. I havnt actually started basic sciences yet at IAU but I am scheduled for the September semester so thats why I am looking at all my options now and really evaluating before I jump into anything. I talked to the Sint Eustatius clinical department and they supposdely do have decent clinicals and do have all greenbook cores and electives but in limited amounts as expected, but its doable and they do have loans through Teri and Drs Choice for the clinical part also.

I just really wish IAU administration would give this part of their medical program more importance and hopefully obtain more ACGME rotations.

[iaustudent06]

Texas requires all rotations to be greenbook, cores and electives.

As far I could read, Texas requires all CORES to be ACGME-certified, but not ALL electives.

Please read form J on Physician Checklist of Supplemental Documentation and Important Information (http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/apps/physician_checklist.php)

It basically says (section 163.1)
130 week minimum
Basic Science to have anatomy, biochemistry, biology, physiology, microbiology, immunology, pathology, pharmacology, and neuroscience.
Clinical Science Cores - IM, OB/GYN, FP, psych, peds, and surgery.On the first two pages, ACGME is required on cores:
Cores must be ACGME.
MUST BE SAME SPECIALTY OR SUB-SPECIALTY
Example: IM in ACGME-IM hospital NOT Geriatrics in ACGME-Internal Med Hospital.
Same institute, not affiliated site w/o accreditation
Electives above and beyond the 130 weeks, do not need to be ACGME certified.
BUT ELECTIVES USED TO MEET THE 130 WEEKS (to me this meant = BASIC SCIENCE + CORE CLINICALS + ELECTIVES) MINIMUM ARE SUBJECT TO BE ACGME CERTIFIED IN SAME SPECIALTY OR SUB-SPECIALTY.
OR if you can provided documentation you rotated with U.S. kids (LCME) at the same facility and staff from their medical school, then it doesn't have to be ACGME.

[MDPWR]

How many states can you actually practice in if you are a graduate of IAU?

[iaustudent06]

How many states can you actually practice in if you are a graduate of IAU?

In theory, you should be able to get licensed in all states, except for California (must have ALL work pre-approved) and Kansas (15 year rule or pre-approval like SABA) as long as you meet all the other requirements (pass USMLE within appropriate timeframes and attempts, ACGME cores and possibly electives, school listing on IMED, etc.) But keep in mind, IAU does not have all greenbooks.

Use the link on my signiture to verify the state requirements you wish to work at. If any are outdated, I'll re-link them if possible... or you can always google "(enter your state) medical board" and search for the laws/forms or contact them directly.

[ashani]

Under Illinois License, it states:

8) Any applicant for licensure to practice medicine in all of its branches who has been unsuccessful in 5 examinations (any component, part or step of the examinations accepted by the Division as set forth in subsection (a)(4)), conducted in this State or any other jurisdiction, shall be deemed ineligible for further examination and/or licensure until the Division is in receipt of proof that the applicant has completed, subsequent to his/her fifth failure:

Do they mean that you need to pass all the exams in 5 attempts or you cannot fail more than 5 attempts all steps included for a licence? Does this rule applicable even when the time of endorsement from a different state? I have tried calling the state board and cannot get through. thank yu for your help

[iaustudent06]

Under Illinois License, it states:

8) Any applicant for licensure to practice medicine in all of its branches who has been unsuccessful in 5 examinations (any component, part or step of the examinations accepted by the Division as set forth in subsection (a)(4)), conducted in this State or any other jurisdiction, shall be deemed ineligible for further examination and/or licensure until the Division is in receipt of proof that the applicant has completed, subsequent to his/her fifth failure:

Do they mean that you need to pass all the exams in 5 attempts or you cannot fail more than 5 attempts all steps included for a licence? Does this rule applicable even when the time of endorsement from a different state? I have tried calling the state board and cannot get through. thank yu for your help

According to the form provided by Illinois, there are a few factors for USMLE...

1. You must pass all parts of USMLE within a 7 year period. The clock starts clicking the moment you PASS an exam (regardless if it's step one or two)

2. You cannot be unsuccessful for more than 5 examinations (failed attempts, in total) which is different from some states who limit the failure of each component (Step one, CK, etc).There are 3 ways to get around this, which is laid on this site: PART 1285 MEDICAL PRACTICE ACT OF 1987 : Sections Listing (http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/06801285sections.html)
However, I know several people who didn't match this past week mainly due to a combination of being an IMG, multiple failures of step components, aiming too high for competitive residencies and applying only to certain competitive geographical locations.
3. Different states will have different rules and will not simply allow you to receive a license based on the fact another state approved you.1. With that said, it should be easier if you have worked for a while (2-3 years, again depends on each state) and meet all the other requirements of that state to obtain a full, unrestricted license.
2. Keep in mind, just because someone receives a residency position (physician-in-training license) in a state does NOT mean they will receive a full, unrestricted license. Texas is one of those states known for placing restrictions and/or requiring additional training in order to obtain a regular license. I don't think Illinois is as strict, comparatively speaking...
I can not attach the form for Illinois because it is too large. So here is the link: State of Illinois - Physician Licensure Applications (http://www.idfpr.com/dpr/apply/physli.asp)

Click on the first link "Physician - Licensure by Examination"
Read Page 2 and Page 4 carefully on the PDF.

Use this until you get through to the state board. Please confirm with them directly.

[ashani]

Thank you for the information.

I just spoke to the Medical license Board with S.D at 217-557-3209 and she confirmed that it will be total of 5 failures and not attempts.

[iaustudent06]

I updated the post to include your information. 5 attempts (in total) would be too little considering there are two parts of Step two, meaning there are 4 required attempts anyways (Step One, Step Two CK, Step Two CS, and Step Three) so in theory you could only fail once in any component.

Here's a pdf "omega's" made with each states general information, contact numbers, years of training requirement, and ACGME requirement.

http://www.valuemd.com/state-medical-licensing-information/150053-greenbook-requirements-state.html

[iaustudent06]

How many states can you actually practice in if you are a graduate of IAU?

Here's an updated list of states and their lists:
U.S. National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation – approved foreign accrediting agencies: National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA) (http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/ncfmea.html)

California Approved and Disapproved- Welcome to the Medical Board of California - Medical Schools (http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools.html)

New York Clinical Approval (Form 2CC)- NYS Medicine Application Forms (http://www.op.nysed.gov/medforms.htm)

Indiana Approval, Disapproved, Questionable(2nd to last pgf form) - PLA: Medical Licensing Board of Indiana (http://www.in.gov/pla/2377.htm)

Kansas - KSBHA - (http://www.ksbha.org/medicalschoolsapprovedunapproved.html)

Texas Disapproved - THECB > Academic Affairs and Research > Private Colleges and Institutes > Fraudulent Institutions (http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/AAR/PrivateInstitutions/NoTX.cfm)
Texas Approved - Substantial Equivalence
Physician Applicants (http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/professionals/physicians/applicants/physicianapplicants.php)

Oregan - Disapproved
www.ndbomex.com/DisapprovedMedSchools.pdf (http://www.ndbomex.com/DisapprovedMedSchools.pdf)

North Dakata - Disapproved
http://www.ndbomex.com/DisapprovedMedSchools.pdf

Michigan – Disapproved
www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf)

Alabama – Disapproved/Requires more documents (bottom of page)
Alabama Board of Medical Examiners (http://www.albme.org/Default.aspx?Page=PysicianApplication#02)

[iaustudent06]

very good responce. I understand what the situation is now. You brought up a good point that even if we do transfer to Ross or the top 3, we still are NOT eligible for all 50 states as the basic sciences are not done there, I am just looking for good, reliable and available clinicals that are majority greenbook. I havnt actually started basic sciences yet at IAU but I am scheduled for the September semester so thats why I am looking at all my options now and really evaluating before I jump into anything. I talked to the Sint Eustatius clinical department and they supposdely do have decent clinicals and do have all greenbook cores and electives but in limited amounts as expected, but its doable and they do have loans through Teri and Drs Choice for the clinical part also.

I just really wish IAU administration would give this part of their medical program more importance and hopefully obtain more ACGME rotations.

Yeah, about transfer... I received this email from the assistant dean of admissions from Ross today:

"...RUSM is no longer accepting transfer credit towards an MD from IAU. You can only be considered as a first semester applicant. Please contact feel free to contact me if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,"


CMJ (edited)

[IAUPREMED]

what are you serious a first semester? wow that is insane! not even a 5th semester, but 1st semester? I have no words at all, a little shocked. Hope something works out for you, you put in alot of time and money in this and scored high on step 1.

[iaustudent06]

The dean of AUC told me personally if offered acceptance I would still have to re-do 5th semester. They have a policy that more than 50% of course work must be done there. I still have paperwork pending for acceptance.

I got an in-person interview for AUA in two weeks, wish me luck.

SGU, SABA, MUA, and St. Mathews will not take an applicant from IAU for credit of the basic science curriculum, regardless of step one scores.

[devildoc8404]

I hear you. Saint Matt's also will not accept any basic science transfer credit from U.S. osteopathic institutions. (More than a shade ironic, since they hire adjunct faculty from osteopathic schools, and train their students in clinical rotations at osteopathic hospitals.)

Transfer can be a bear, but with your Step One scores I am confident that something will work out! Good luck...

[cavalletti]

Hello there,

So they say that BIG 4 Caribbean school are 50 Stats practice schools.
What about their green book rotation, for example like Saba and AUC do they have all green book rotation?


SGU has all green cores and electives. SGU also provides all green cores and electives. The other's do have some non-green rotations. It's up to the student to be sure that they turn down anything but green spots.

[Skipper]

AUC has all green core rotations and you can do all green electives

skipper

[iaustudent06]

AUA rejected my application also

[Scott1981]

keep your head up. the worst that can happen is that you do blue rotations. there are still plenty of states that will accept that.

[Skipper]

you are probably best of starting your rotations and then trying to find a state to get licensed in......

skipper

[iaustudent06]

The last application pending was rejected by AUC yesterday.

[squad41]

Does anyone know what is in the works for IAU to establish OB/GYN, Peds, Gen Surgery and psych for greenbook rotations (I know FP and IM are already covered). Specifically, when and where?

[squad41]

Why do you think your application was rejected by AUC and AUA? Im sorry to hear that but so long as you do all greenbook cores, you should be able to get a good residency, right? Time and time again I hear the emphasis is on step 1. I just spoke with a current PGY-1 in EM at VCU/MCV (one of top 10 EM programs in country) and he said they told him point blank their selection process is 99% 1) what was your step 1 score and 2) are you going to be a big pain in my a** for the next 3 years?

[Skipper]

The last application pending was rejected by AUC yesterday.


Well, why waste your 2 years you put in. Might as well start clinicals and see later where you can get licensed. I would not just waste away 2 years. good luck

Skipper

[iaustudent06]

Does anyone know what is in the works for IAU to establish OB/GYN, Peds, Gen Surgery and psych for greenbook rotations (I know FP and IM are already covered). Specifically, when and where?

That's the repeated question we've all been waiting for to be answered.

[iaustudent06]

Why do you think your application was rejected by AUC and AUA? Im sorry to hear that but so long as you do all greenbook cores, you should be able to get a good residency, right? Time and time again I hear the emphasis is on step 1. I just spoke with a current PGY-1 in EM at VCU/MCV (one of top 10 EM programs in country) and he said they told him point blank their selection process is 99% 1) what was your step 1 score and 2) are you going to be a big pain in my a** for the next 3 years?

AUC will not take IAU's credits. AUA decided to stop taking IAU's credit after the school did not make the aproved list during NY's evaluation last year.

Well, why waste your 2 years you put in. Might as well start clinicals and see later where you can get licensed. I would not just waste away 2 years. good luck
Skipper

I'm not that eager to be a backdoor doctor from a bootleg school anymore. If transferring is this tough even after a decent step one score, then residency and licensure has got to be worse.

[gfunkmagic]

AUC will not take IAU's credits. AUA decided to stop taking IAU's credit after the school did not make the aproved list during NY's evaluation last year.



I'm not that eager to be a backdoor doctor from a bootleg school anymore. If transferring is this tough even after a decent step one score, then residency and licensure has got to be worse.


Hi, I'm in a similar situation. Am an IAU student (transfer) and just passed the Step 1 with a pretty decent score. I'm trying to transfer to another school because of my concern regarding IAU's lack of greenbook rotation and possible future licensure problems, but have been having difficulites trying to find a school that will accept a transfer form IAU. The only school so far that is will even consider an application is St Eustatius....let you guys know how that goes... :(

[iaustudent06]

IAU made a statement to several students last week that they have found a hospital in Louisana that is greenbook in all core rotations except peds. This spot is supposed to be available starting as soon as the end of next month. I am not sure if this rotation will require a minimum score, like the IM rotation at Harbor Hospital (minimum 210) or if there is a long waiting period.

[drjds]

Which hospital in Louisiana?

[iaustudent06]

Which hospital in Louisiana?


Touro Hospital... I haven't checked to see what all it is greenbook in, but I was told by school it is green in everything except peds and pysch.

[mljackson19]

Oh ok I'm familiar with Tuoro it's in New Orleans, I was there visiting a friend about 2 weeks ago.

[NWS]

Damn that's rough, why don't you guys transfer to UMHS for clinical rotations or even Windsor?

[D.Fish]

Damn that's rough, why don't you guys transfer to UMHS for clinical rotations or even Windsor?

But doesn't UMHS have the same greenbook issues as IAU?

[iaustudent06]

In addition, IAU has more greenbooks than Windsor now.