real world reputation

[PnjbiJattMD2]

ok, we know that saba is a funny sounding name. i mean be honest, if u tell someone, ''yea, i graduated from saba university school of medicine'' and your medical colleague graduated from johns hopkins, you are gonna automatically gonna have a stigma of inferiority. name carries a lot of wieght in the medical profession. so, that being said.....what real world experiences have grads from saba had? have u ever been ''discriminated'' because u went to an offshore school?
Holla back.........

[WantMD]

I think that Saba has a good name. SMU, SGU also have names that I like. By far, the worse name of any school has got to be AUC. They chose to make the word "CARIBBEAN" part of their name!!! As far as reputation goes, both schools have a great reputation. I chose to go to AUC (Notice I said AUC, not American University of the CARIBBEAN). :-)
AUC is a great school, I visited and loved it! The choice of name though is questionable. :-)

As far as "name" is important, it's not THAT important. Just ask MrScottyMD who just graduated from Saba and PRE-matched a residency at MAYO! What's important is USMLE score, attitude.

I do agree though, that we are not fooling anyone. We all go to Carib. schools because we couldn't get into a US school. People know this. I am surprised though, when I talk to MD's about my attending AUC, they're ALL for it! To my amazement, NONE of them was against it, they all thought I would make a great MD and encouraged me the most.

Bottom line is, study hard, do well on your USMLE & be a good physician. People will respect you if you are a good, caring, competent Dr. Those who don't, well they can kiss you butt. I will not worry about this, not a single iota.

WantMD :-)

[Stitches]

No one actually asks you where you got your MD. This is especially true when you work for a hospital. The only time the subject might come up is if you're a GP and your patient is trying to make conversation. Even then, if you've been a good doc thus far for that patient, you'd have gained his/her trust, so it doesn't matter which school you went to. Check other forums and ask around, a lot of MDs who graduated from the Caribbeans will tell you the same thing.

[Kuwaituser]

I was reading your comments that ultimately only USMLE score matters to get a residency. Please advise if the USMLE score is good, is it ok even if the student has got an MD from a medical school in Africa. What are the requirements needed for the Foreign medical school to get the residency. Are the requirements like recognised by the respective government in that country, IMED & WHO listed etc. enough for US authorities to recognise the MD degree.

[stephew]

ok, we know that saba is a funny sounding name. i mean be honest, if u tell someone, ''yea, i graduated from saba university school of medicine'' and your medical colleague graduated from johns hopkins, you are gonna automatically gonna have a stigma of inferiority. name carries a lot of wieght in the medical profession. so, that being said.....what real world experiences have grads from saba had? have u ever been ''discriminated'' because u went to an offshore school?
Holla back.........

Since the Johns Hopkins medical students are being taught by a caribbean grad, they can't say a thing.
Steph
SGUSOM '99

[aychamo]

Here is something that I have heard is a legitimate concern.

If you grad from an IMG, and get sued for malpractice, the first thing a lawyer will try to do is discredit you in court.

How would you answer these questions:

"Why didn't you go to an American medical school?"

"Why coudln't you get into an American medical school?"

[doctor2007]

Just in case something like this happens, I think some of us didn't apply to US Med School at all, so they can't prove that you didn't get accepted. That's why it's important to figure out if you have a chance of getting into US Med School and if you know you don't have a chance, why even take the chance. (I mean anything below a 3.5 GPA is too low, either way you look at it. And only 1/1000 maybe get's in. So being wise sometimes helps.) Apply to a med school that you can get into. MD is an MD either way you look at it.

As for the first question, that's a defenseless question. What makes US Med School any superior to international medical school. It's a fact, there are hundreths of abroad medical schools that I would go to before even considering some of the state med schools in the US. Furthermore, remember, US graduates all over the US are being sued for malpractice every day, so to say that IMG are any less competent b/c they are IMGs that's foolish. We took the same classes, same board exams, same rotations and residency. The only upper hand US Med Gradutes have, is they spend 2 years in US, and maybe used better research facilities that IMG only dream of. But what makes a great MD is not research facility instead its the character and the intellectual capacity one possesses.

That's just my take on this.

[charlottenian]

Just in case something like this happens, I think some of us didn't apply to US Med School at all, so they can't prove that you didn't get accepted. That's why it's important to figure out if you have a chance of getting into US Med School and if you know you don't have a chance, why even take the chance. (I mean anything below a 3.5 GPA is too low, either way you look at it. And only 1/1000 maybe get's in. So being wise sometimes helps.) Apply to a med school that you can get into. MD is an MD either way you look at it.

As for the first question, that's a defenseless question. What makes US Med School any superior to international medical school. It's a fact, there are hundreths of abroad medical schools that I would go to before even considering some of the state med schools in the US. Furthermore, remember, US graduates all over the US are being sued for malpractice every day, so to say that IMG are any less competent b/c they are IMGs that's foolish. We took the same classes, same board exams, same rotations and residency. The only upper hand US Med Gradutes have, is they spend 2 years in US, and maybe used better research facilities that IMG only dream of. But what makes a great MD is not research facility instead its the character and the intellectual capacity one possesses.

That's just my take on this.

I agree

[aychamo]

I agree with your post too.. But you have to remember that prejudice still exists. You won't be convincing me, other IMGs or maybe even other doctors. You'll have to convince the judge, jury, or whatever party is mediating the malpractice hearing. You'll have to remember that some people hear foreign school and think its sub-par, JUST BECAUSE it's not American.

Americans tend to think that their country is the best country in the entire world. It is not much different than humans thinking that our own race deserves special consideration but that it's ok to go around killing whatever species of animal they want. It is *sooo* bad to kill a human feotus, but it's ok to kill a deer that is carrying a baby deer inside of it.

Hell, look at Christians. So many fundamentalist Christians think that their religion is the one and only true right religion in the world and that anyone who doesn't practice what they preach is going to their hell. It's all prejudice. The world is full of it.

My father is a surgeon here in the states, and went to Baylor for med-school. I've been talking to him a lot about the foreign schools. He says the prejudice exists against FMGs, but that it is in the older generation of doctors. The old-schoolers. Half those people will be dead by the time I'm out of med-school :-)

I just can't understand how a person could look at a US grad with 95 on the USMLE and a FMG with a 99 and think the US grad would be better.

I may not *even* apply to a single American school. I've read about Saba, and spent a few hours the other day talking to a Saba grad who is practicing here in town now, and she loved it. She really sold me on it, not that I needed much more being sold on it. I'm going to visit Saba in the middle of May so I can get the total picture.

Personally, my defense, or explanation would be that I was competitve for American schools, but that I didn't have the desire to attend one. My science GPA, for my pre-meds (and my entire biology major) is 4.0. I have outstanding clinical experience, and great LORs and teacher recommendations.

[Andrew21]

I will ignore the statements Christians, Americans, and hunters (I'm not a hunter, but i am the first two). I agree with your dad's perpective. The vast majority of docs in this country didn't go to ivy league med schools. They know that college hard, and that med school is more competitive every year. My dad is also a surgeon, and he supported my decision. In fact, the only thing anyone has ever said is "you'll be so far away!" They never brought up any concerns about my competence or that of any of SGUs grads. I think a lot of docs are pretty level-headed and judge IMGs for what they are--doctors

Andy

PS There was a list on valuemd at one point that showed each medical school and the number of their grads which get accused of malpractice each year. SGU ranked incredibly low, like bottom 5, and AUC and Ross were both pretty low as well.

[aychamo]

Hey there

This is a great topic, so good idea about ignoring my stuff with Americans, Christians and hunters. Sorry for derailing.

I wonder if as the years go by, the foreign schools will quit being prejudiced against. I know there are foreign grads who have high positions (like cheif resident, etc). From what I gathered from the doctor I talked to that graduated from Saba, the best thing is to just work freakin hard when you are in clinicals, and you will shine, and then they will be even more surprised that you are a FMG.

[DSMMD]

First off, MrScottyMD did not graduate from Saba as he transferred to MUA.

As for the whole FMG issue....the interim Chief Medical Examiner of Wayne County (of which Detroit is part and they are #8 in the country in number of cases) was up on the witness stand. He has no significant accent. He was asked where he went to medical school at which point he said, "Mexico." They were going to go after him for this and asked him whey he went to Mexico for medical school at which point he said, "Because I am Mexican." Yup...he was raised in Mexico and therefore went to med school there.

As for the discrimination factor...it is out there. I was rejected from residency programs once they saw I was an IMG (did not have my board scores, letters, etc. downloaded and rejected me). Was also told flat out it would be doubtful a certain program would ever take an FMG because they could not verify the quality of education.

I applie to 47 EM programs and only had 4 interview.....knew my board scores were far superior to others on the interview trail who were getting 20 interviews.

I matched at my top choice. Am one of the chief residents this year, and have gotten the fellowship that I desired.

With that being said, be careful. There are some states where you cannot get licensed until you have finished 3 years of post-grad training if you are a FMG.

[DSMMD]

First off, MrScottyMD did not graduate from Saba as he transferred to MUA.

As for the whole FMG issue....the interim Chief Medical Examiner of Wayne County (of which Detroit is part and they are #8 in the country in number of cases) was up on the witness stand. He has no significant accent. He was asked where he went to medical school at which point he said, "Mexico." They were going to go after him for this and asked him whey he went to Mexico for medical school at which point he said, "Because I am Mexican." Yup...he was raised in Mexico and therefore went to med school there.

As for the discrimination factor...it is out there. I was rejected from residency programs once they saw I was an IMG (did not have my board scores, letters, etc. downloaded and rejected me). Was also told flat out it would be doubtful a certain program would ever take an FMG because they could not verify the quality of education.

I applie to 47 EM programs and only had 4 interview.....knew my board scores were far superior to others on the interview trail who were getting 20 interviews.

I matched at my top choice. Am one of the chief residents this year, and have gotten the fellowship that I desired.

With that being said, be careful. There are some states where you cannot get licensed until you have finished 3 years of post-grad training if you are a FMG.

[WantMD]

[quote="DSMMD"]First off, MrScottyMD did not graduate from Saba as he transferred to MUA. quote]

You are right he did start at MUA and I'm not sure how much time he spent there. But he did end up graduating from Saba, according to him.

Besides, this only proves my point. Having transferred from MUA to Saba is slightly "worse" than having spent the entire time at Saba. And despite this he pre-matched in a great residency. He DID however score really high on his USMLE which is why he got this residency.

WantMD.

[doctor2007]

I agree that there are many MDs and people out there that do discriminate against IMG. But that's life, at any level - for something one can be discriminated. It's sad that it happens in the health care system where acceptance and compassion is a priority, but it's up to us IMG's to build a better future. The more MDs graduates from international medical school the stronger our case will be. I read one post one time that talked about Caribbean medical schools should unite and make an association. If SGU, AUC, Ross and Saba would unite I think they would actually make a good case to be accepted by AAMC. Med. School from Canada have been accepted by AAMC, so I think its possible for Caribbean med schools to become accredited too. It's just a matter of making the right changes.

[studentMD]

First off, MrScottyMD did not graduate from Saba as he transferred to MUA

Scott started at Saba. He was at SABA for 4 semesters. He, with other saba students, were at MUA on nevis in my 5th semester class for the HOSPITAL experience. They never transferred to MUA, they were there as visiting students if thats what you want to call it. They did indeed graduate from SABA (clinicals through the SABA office) and spent one semester at MUA but they were never official MUA students.

[stephew]

Just in case something like this happens, I think some of us didn't apply to US Med School at all, so they can't prove that you didn't get accepted. .

Try that line and watch your bank account empty. Anyone saying they didnt apply to a US school is lying or incredibly naive to the point of psychiatric. You try to get cute like that and a lawyer will smile and ask you "fine. Did you apply to a US school and fail to get accepted?" You want to lie to that? You answer straight: my grades in college weren't competitive. Your lawyer will ask if you had adequate scores in med school. If you passed the qualifying exams etc for practice in the US and your evaluations as a resident/ attending. Period. Someone from Crieghton might have the same problem. MOre likely you'll settle as that what happens.

[doctor2007]

Try that line and watch your bank account empty. Anyone saying they didnt apply to a US school is lying or incredibly naive to the point of psychiatric. You try to get cute like that and a lawyer will smile and ask you "fine. Did you apply to a US school and fail to get accepted?" You want to lie to that? You answer straight: my grades in college weren't competitive. Your lawyer will ask if you had adequate scores in med school. If you passed the qualifying exams etc for practice in the US and your evaluations as a resident/ attending. Period. Someone from Crieghton might have the same problem. MOre likely you'll settle as that what happens.

I think you got things wrong here. First, to your question "Did you apply to a US school and fail to get accepted?" Answer NO. I wouldn't be lying. Regarding my grades, that would play a role only if you applied to US med school and didn't get accepted. Than they would ask why you didn't get accepted. That would be a problem. They can still point to my college grades, but how is this relevant to me being a physician? I mean nothing that college teaches you even shows up in medicine.

As regarding about adequate scores, boards and evaluations. They have to just check them out and see for themselves. I mean you know they will ask for those documents when they take you to court, and they should. If there is something to hide than it should be pointed. But to say that one's lying that he/she didn't apply to US med school or to say that one is incredibly naive is imprudent. In addition, one can give them the right to check if one has applied and faild to get accepted into a US school. I'm sure they keep records of such things.

I think everyone needs to realize, before lawyers will attack your qualifications as an MD, they will go after the medical school. They won't say your a bad doctor cause you went there. You are a bad doctor cause that medical school isn't up to par with practicing medicine. Poor maintained facilities (both academic and research), bad professors, low academic standards, etc. They can say that about a medical school and can discredit that med school's degree, which by default discredits your degree. So this is were one has to be careful. Choosing a medical school that is qualified and up to par with medicine (Not US Med School - cause they are no better than many international schools) but with practicing medicine.

[aychamo]

This is a very interesting discussion. Maybe we should setup some type of IMG organization or information thing for IMG MDs and malpractice defense. Even a website to inform IMG MDs what is important to keep in mind and recognize for testifying in court.

Does anyone know any lawyers?

[stephew]

[quote=stephew]

I think you got things wrong here. First, to your question "Did you apply to a US school and fail to get accepted?" Answer NO. I wouldn't be lying. Regarding my grades, that would play a role only if you applied to US med school and didn't get accepted. .

I meant med school grades. If you actually didnt even apply to a US school, a lawyer could have a field day with that as well. You mean you chose to go to a caribbean school over a US school? Cut to lawyer shooting down your judgement to begin with, followed by the type of education you received as an IMG nonetheless- never mind if it was good bad or indifferent.

as someone who's been involved in IMG education for nearly 10 years now, i am very comfortable saying that someone who didnt apply to the US (barring a portfolio so bad they were merely saving money they'd waste on app fees) is lying or showing bad judgement. I would advise any student to try for a US school if at all reasonable or possible.

Nevertheless some IMG schools are excellent and viable alternatives to a US school.
steph

[aychamo]

Hell, if I want to do an IM subspecialty, I don't see why I shouldn't goto Saba. That island has me salivating.

[doctor2007]

I meant med school grades. If you actually didnt even apply to a US school, a lawyer could have a field day with that as well. You mean you chose to go to a caribbean school over a US school? Cut to lawyer shooting down your judgement to begin with, followed by the type of education you received as an IMG nonetheless- never mind if it was good bad or indifferent.

As someone who's been involved in IMG education for nearly 10 years now

I have to say it was great taking on a 10 year experienced professional. You pointed a lot of things I didn't think about and made this conversation pretty fun. You are right, lawyers will try hard to shoot down ones judgement, but that only goes that far in court and in life. But you can't tell me that by choosing to apply to any medical in the world (including Saba) over a US medical school is a bad judgement call. That's an opinion (although sad and opinions sometimes wins cases) it's not going to get anyone very far.

It's fair to say that you are the experienced (10 years) and you know the field better than I and many others know (not to mention you are working for a top notch hospital). So I give you props. But calling on someones judgment (bad or good) based on your opinion and what you have seen in the past from others is weak and I can't let that slide. So, although you point many great questions, it's incomplete.

When someone ends up in court, what really will matter are - facts. If lawyers want to destroy one's judgment based on the fact that they chose to go to Saba. That's defenseless. But they won't do that. Instead they will destroy one judgment based on what they did medically wrong. Such as making a wrong judgment during rotations or residency that shows up in your evaluations. They will destroy one judgment by pointing to the wrong judgment one made during diagnosis. Because those they can prove and are factual. Saying that you (think) someone made a bad judgment b/c he/she chose IMG school over US school that's nonsense. Maybe it would convince a few, but in the long run "facts" win a case.

[aychamo]

doctor2007;

Don't be so quick to be naive. Remember in court your case will possibly be decided by a jury full of uneducated buffoons. The jury didn't go to the foreign medical school, they don't know about the quality of facilities, instruction, etc. You can be damned sure that a lawyer who is trying a case *against* you will say any and everything he can to win the case.

[doctor2007]

Agree

[WantMD]

Hey Guys,

This thread has been interesting. However, these are all opinions. I wonder if there are real world stats out there that prove or disprove your hypothesis that IMGs are more likely to be toasted by a jury. That would be an interesting statistic. Sounds like something azskeptic would know about.

Just wondering,

WantMD :-)

[aychamo]

Oops, I'm sorry that I didn't make my post more clear. That an IMG will be toasted by a lawyer is not an opinion. My father often serves as an expert witness and observed it first hand. The first thing the lawyer does to any doctor is attack their competence as a doctor. This includes med-school grades, scores, etc.

[Andrew21]

I remember a guy, either on this forum or on the old network 54 forum, who had a brother who was going to go to law school then open a practice serving nothing but IMG malpractice cases. Don't know he ever did it, but at least there are people out there thinking about it. Also, check out this thread that I compiled on responses from PDs about getting a residency as a grad from AUC or SGU (many repsonses are directed towards IMGs in general)

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=14154&highlight=residency+pd

andy

[gpcfac]

HIGH Undergrad GPA = American Med School = USMLE + 5 over IMG,
USMLE = Residency.

Who would you want, the student that overcomes the odds and does well on the USMLEs from a foreign school, or a US Graduate who does ok.

I only tried as hard as I needed to during my undergrad. For those of whom didn't know they were going into medicine until later on in life that is often a problem. I could get a MS or PhD in Biology, but why when I want to practice medicine. Why waste years when I can get an MD faster by going to the Caribbean.

It's not where you go, but how well you do in comparison to everyone else on the USMLEs.
------------------------------------------------------
My response to the lawyer:
Are they truly well rounded Doctors if they spent more of their undergraduate lives studying non-medical books. The average doctor spends 6% of his time diagnosing patients.(forgot the source right now) If it was only so simple to read a book and make a diagnosis.
Every doctor from the Caribbean had to pass the same medical tests as an American doctor. The reason I went to the Caribbean was because I cared about people. That compassion I hold goes beyond the wants that I sometimes possess.
At times a true physician places their lives ahead of his. If you seem confused, the word Physician doesn't mean, a scientist in medicine, as some might believe. The word means "a person skilled in the art of healing" (Webster's Dictionary), and a good doctor goes beyond discrete observations. I believe this emphasis on competition has led to higher salaries and mediocre doctors with great profit making abilities.
Sacrificing more money, and some prestige I'm grateful that I've been given the ability to graduate from the Caribbean. It has defined me. :lol:

[studentMD]

Are they truly well rounded Doctors if they spent more of their undergraduate lives studying non-medical books

i dunno if this argument can hold...
many of the us students i know have some very impressive undergrad cvs, alot of volunteer work, many extracurricular activities, research, involved in school committees, athletics... etc...

many are actually wellrounded .. thats what us schools look for once the gpa/mcat criteria has been met by individuals..

[gpcfac]

My comment is meant to address the issue that undergrad grades are a better factor for determing a research scientist than a doctor. Given intelligence and organization skills relatively constant, higher G.P.A.'s imply less social interaction.