Are there ANY good rotations in Chicago...

[cdnzed]

...other than Psych at Cook County? So far, they've all been garbage "affiliated" rotations at local clinics or smaller hospitals with VERY LITTLE teaching. MR seems to ALWAYS be "full until next year".

Can anyone share any good sites??

[MD0690]

Sorry to hear that Reese is all booked up. Very good place as far as I am concerned. Did IM, ID, Cards and OB there and all were good. OB less so than the others but still some of my best clinical experiences were there while I was at Ross. I did a lot on OB but very little Gyn.

Surgery was available at Cook County when I was there. I did electives in Trauma, Ortho and Anes. All good but Trauma was not great. Nice place to have on your transcript but not a very hands on experiecne in Trauma. Anesthesiology was great. The guy who runs the student portion knows more about nerve blocks than anyone I have met. Likes to teach students also so that is very cool. Show some interest and initiative and you can get alot of ET tubes. I did about 20 and some art lines and ABG's.

Ross has kind of shot themselves in the foot over there and you may not be able to get much.

My only other advice is to stay away from the Peds through JP. I did this rotation when it was with the guy at his office for 6 weeks. Great guy, liked to teach some but not what you need for step 2. Unless it has changed since it was green book through Luth Gen Hos stay away from it. When I was there we had up to 11 students from three different schools. He only has 4 exam rooms. Not very hands on and long days of learning and doing very little.

[butters]

The thing with MR is that you have to keep calling...spots open up all the time but you have to continually call and ask them if anything has opened up. Are you looking for Electives or Cores?

I did my Pedes and OB at St. Anthony which were amazing experiences. I was however scheduled before Ross took over the scheduling so I think there is a waiting list now...but call the Clinical Dept and find out...never hurts to know firsthand.

If you are looking for OB, it is good at JPH with Dr. S. He gives good lectures (all STep 2 relevant), and expects you to work hard. There are not many deliveries at JPH, but the deliveries that do occur, you are expected to take part in them fully...the Residents will usually let you do everything. Also, Dr. S. expects students to scrub in and help him on C-sections. I personally have not done the rotation but my friends who have done it really liked it.

Cook County is also good for electives but you really have to be on the ball with it and get your paperwork in early because the rotations tend to fill up.

I always post for people to stay away from the "affiliated" rotations. These are all fairly new so no teaching is really in place. Try to get in at the JPH system directly. The rotations at JPH are actually pretty good and you have direct responsibility for your patients. Since it is an inner city hospital that is short staffed, the Attendings like students to take an active part in the diagnosis, treatment, and care of patients.

Good luck!

[MD0690]

I was specifically warned by the head of a medical department in Chicago to stay away from JP. "If you do all of your rotations at JP and try to get into residency in Chicago they will know you got a crappy education." Maybe things have changed and this is not as accurate but I also have a friend, smart guy, who was rotating there and got out because he was not learning anything from the staff. Places with residents in a specialty have to have teaching automatically built in. When it is just you and a bunch of attendings it can be hit or miss.

[leloz]

Internal Medicine with Dr. R @ Norwegian

Cardiology with Dr. R @ Norwegian

OBGYN with Dr. B @ Norwegian

Those were all good.

[thethom]

No. Chicago sucks. All the good rotations are on the east coast... :-P

[butters]

I was specifically warned by the head of a medical department in Chicago to stay away from JP. "If you do all of your rotations at JP and try to get into residency in Chicago they will know you got a pooppy education." Maybe things have changed and this is not as accurate but I also have a friend, smart guy, who was rotating there and got out because he was not learning anything from the staff. Places with residents in a specialty have to have teaching automatically built in. When it is just you and a bunch of attendings it can be hit or miss.


JPH does have a Family Residency Program. There are lectures every week by different specialists (yes, there are Specialists) in the hospital. Most of the Morning Reports are followed by a teaching session as well. But yes, you're right, there are not any specialty Residencies.

I'm not saying JPH is the best hospital to do rotations...all I'm saying is that if you do get assigned there you will find many good rotations where you not only learn from lectures, but learn by doing things and managing patients. I think that is important in the learning process...to do and see what you read about in the texts.

I've known many people to go on from JPH and get good Residencies...many at University facilities. ONe girl I met at the hospital actually got her FM at Northwestern.

If anybody wants to know what cores and electives are good, PM me.

Good luck!

[cdnzed]

Internal Medicine with Dr. R @ Norwegian

Cardiology with Dr. R @ Norwegian

OBGYN with Dr. B @ Norwegian

Those were all good.


Norwegian is a JPH affiliate is it not? Did you have lectures? Did you just follow those specific doctors around? I do not want to do my cores at a small JPH affiliate hospital.

[cdnzed]

I'm looking for cores right now. Does MR have a residency program for both IM and Surgery?

Thanks for the info about St. Anthony.


The thing with MR is that you have to keep calling...spots open up all the time but you have to continually call and ask them if anything has opened up. Are you looking for Electives or Cores?

I did my Pedes and OB at St. Anthony which were amazing experiences. I was however scheduled before Ross took over the scheduling so I think there is a waiting list now...but call the Clinical Dept and find out...never hurts to know firsthand.

If you are looking for OB, it is good at JPH with Dr. S. He gives good lectures (all STep 2 relevant), and expects you to work hard. There are not many deliveries at JPH, but the deliveries that do occur, you are expected to take part in them fully...the Residents will usually let you do everything. Also, Dr. S. expects students to scrub in and help him on C-sections. I personally have not done the rotation but my friends who have done it really liked it.

Cook County is also good for electives but you really have to be on the ball with it and get your paperwork in early because the rotations tend to fill up.

I always post for people to stay away from the "affiliated" rotations. These are all fairly new so no teaching is really in place. Try to get in at the JPH system directly. The rotations at JPH are actually pretty good and you have direct responsibility for your patients. Since it is an inner city hospital that is short staffed, the Attendings like students to take an active part in the diagnosis, treatment, and care of patients.

Good luck!

[MD0690]

Surgery was not at MR when I left there. They had it when I first started rotating but UIC stopped sending thier residents there so no more green book.

As for the "they have a family residency so they have everything" comment. Major problem. Sure if you get hooked up with an ob/gyn that has the time and likes to teach you are golden. But if he/she is busy and does not have the time or maybe the knowledge base to teach then you are screwed. So with a place that has everything covered by in the green book because it has family you may get a good experience. You may not, and if you want to go into a competative field that is going to hurt your application.

I matched into EM and I was told when interviewing that noone cared if you got to put in a chest tube while you were a student. It is nice if you did but you will get plenty of chances to learn the skills you need during residency. I bring this up because I was arguing with someone who did a month of "EM" at JPH and he was bragging about how his hands on experience and autonomy as a student was going to help him land an EM spot. I did my 2 months of EM at a large community EM with >90,000 visits a year and a university program, both places I was closely supervised and learned a lot. More important I got letters of recomendation from Board certified EM docs at institutions know around the nation. Much more impressive than a LOR from a FM attending at a hospital noone has heard of. Having recognizable names on your transcript is nice and as one program director, PD, put it, "it shows that you were concerned about your education and took the effort to try and put yourself in the best places possible. That in itself is a big plus for you."

Learning to handle patients on your own does force you to get up to speed on the diseases they have but does not help you with all the ones they don't. What I am saying is 3rd and 4th year are a time to keep your learning base very wide. Learning to manage your own patients is for intern year of residency. AND, it does not matter how much you learn if the people looking at your residency application see you spent all you time at a place that they don't see as a good learning site. When they see you have done all your clerkships at a place with only FM your application goes to the bottom of the stack. This is not every single place and every single PD and don't put up a bunch of posts about people you know who got into the program they wanted after doing all their stuff at an FM only place. It does happen, but if you want the best chance at getting into the residency of your choice don't take the easy way out in clincals by going to an FM only place to do residency just so you can stay in Chicago. I was born and raised there, love the city and had my fiance there, but I still went to NY, Cleveland, Detroit and Madison for clerkships because they were better learning opportunities.

May not seem fair but when a PD has 200 applications for 10 spots he/she has to start eliminating them some way and clerkships at an unknown place will give the person sorting through them a reason to put yours near the bottom.

[chigurl]

Can anyone give their first-hand perspective of your clinical and overall experience at Ross. I've read on other posts that students are not satisfied with clinicals and are missing the Match due a shortages or delays which prevent them from completing on time. What has your experience been and do you have regrets about attending Ross?

Oh, I'm asking because I've been invited to interview.

Thanks

[onmyway]

the clinical scene is highly variable. there are a few places where you can have a top-notch experience, but many where you won't. I have had all great experiences so far...but then I did a great deal of research into Ross clinical sites and held out for places I wanted to be rather than accepting the quickest/easiest places to be assigned. That strategy takes you longer, but to me it was a worthwhile trade-off. If you want further details you can PM me.

[MD0690]

Ditto the above posting.

I could have made the 2006 match by packing electives between my cores and getting out on time. If you want to go into FM or a not very competative IM program that will do and you can get done no problem.

If you want to go into something competative you will have to have good letters of rec., LOR's, from known institutions. You get these doing electives in things related to the type of medicine you want to practice. That said, lots of good places will let IMG/FMG do electives with them but only as a 4th year, after you have finished your cores. I was at UW Madison, Cook County etc. Also, you will look much better during electives if you already have the knowledge base from the things you learned in IM, Peds, Surg, Psych ect. So when you ask for that letter it is a stronger one from a better place. My point, 4th year electives should be done in your 4th year, not to fill gaps in your core schedule so you can graduate on time. It sucks to have to wait an extra year and lose a years salary as an attending but it sucks worse to do your whole career practicing in a field you don't like.

If you are starting in August 07 you may make the 2011 match and still have been able to get into rotations to make you competative. I started in January 03 and matched for 2007. I know of 2 people who started with me that matched 2006 and got what they wanted. Others made 2006 match but were not as strong of candidates and took what they could get.

From what I am hearing on this site lately things seem to be getting worse and not better. Lots of people having to do electives because Ross does not have enough spots, esp. Ped and Ob/GYN. I have a friend whose last rotation at Ross was his peds core. Sucked because he wanted Med/Peds.

[chigurl]

Thanks. After doing some research on actual studies that have been done, comparing the ACGME accreditations for the cores with the affiliated hospitals listed in the area that I would like to do my last two years, and reading current/previous students postings on ValueMD, I am leaning back towards waiting it out and reapplying to US schools. I may have to do a PostBac program, but that doesn't seem like the end of the world in light of the fact that many students don't get residency until after five years anyway.

Thank you for your insight and good luck in your path to becoming a LICENSED physician in your preferred area of specialty!

[DrunkenDancer]

Ditto the above posting.

I have a friend whose last rotation at Ross was his peds core. Sucked because he wanted Med/Peds.

I take it that if you don't have a letter from a pediatrics core you shouldn't apply med-peds? What happened, i.e. did he get med-peds anyway?

[butters]

Surgery was not at MR when I left there. They had it when I first started rotating but UIC stopped sending thier residents there so no more green book.

As for the "they have a family residency so they have everything" comment. Major problem. Sure if you get hooked up with an ob/gyn that has the time and likes to teach you are golden. But if he/she is busy and does not have the time or maybe the knowledge base to teach then you are screwed. So with a place that has everything covered by in the green book because it has family you may get a good experience. You may not, and if you want to go into a competative field that is going to hurt your application.

I matched into EM and I was told when interviewing that noone cared if you got to put in a chest tube while you were a student. It is nice if you did but you will get plenty of chances to learn the skills you need during residency. I bring this up because I was arguing with someone who did a month of "EM" at JPH and he was bragging about how his hands on experience and autonomy as a student was going to help him land an EM spot. I did my 2 months of EM at a large community EM with >90,000 visits a year and a university program, both places I was closely supervised and learned a lot. More important I got letters of recomendation from Board certified EM docs at institutions know around the nation. Much more impressive than a LOR from a FM attending at a hospital noone has heard of. Having recognizable names on your transcript is nice and as one program director, PD, put it, "it shows that you were concerned about your education and took the effort to try and put yourself in the best places possible. That in itself is a big plus for you."

Learning to handle patients on your own does force you to get up to speed on the diseases they have but does not help you with all the ones they don't. What I am saying is 3rd and 4th year are a time to keep your learning base very wide. Learning to manage your own patients is for intern year of residency. AND, it does not matter how much you learn if the people looking at your residency application see you spent all you time at a place that they don't see as a good learning site. When they see you have done all your clerkships at a place with only FM your application goes to the bottom of the stack. This is not every single place and every single PD and don't put up a bunch of posts about people you know who got into the program they wanted after doing all their stuff at an FM only place. It does happen, but if you want the best chance at getting into the residency of your choice don't take the easy way out in clincals by going to an FM only place to do residency just so you can stay in Chicago. I was born and raised there, love the city and had my fiance there, but I still went to NY, Cleveland, Detroit and Madison for clerkships because they were better learning opportunities.

May not seem fair but when a PD has 200 applications for 10 spots he/she has to start eliminating them some way and clerkships at an unknown place will give the person sorting through them a reason to put yours near the bottom.


First of all, this thread was intended for informing people about Chicago rotations and which ones are best so let's all stay on track.

SEcondly, you are totally entitled to move around and do rotations...Ross has sites all over the country and many people do that and that is fine. But for some people, they choose to stay in one place to avoid the hassles of adjusting to a new city and finding a new place to live in for short-term. And even in Chicago, like I've stated above, there are places you can find good rotations. But just like how you've searched them out all over the country, you have to search them out here as well.

And I only posted about the people I knew because it was asked whether students that have done clerkships at JPH have gone on to good Residency programs which they have. You think these are exceptions but most of the people I've known at JPH have moved on to solid Residency programs. Everyone knows that JPH is not the best of hospitals, in not the best of neighborhoods, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have good rotations. And honestly, you can't really speak for the rotations there if you haven't even done any of them. I don't consider it the "easy way" out to stay in one location to do your rotations...is it more convenient? Definitely. But I think this thread was intended for people who do choose to stay in one location, Chicago, to get information on the best learning opportunities here.

In the end, the first thing that is going to get a PD to look at your application are your Board Scores. If you have rotated at University X Or University Y Hospital, it won't matter if your Board scores are not competitive for that field. If you want a more competitive specialty such as Derm, Radio, Orthopedics, in addition to getting top notch Board Scores you should definitely go to an institution that has a Residency Program for that specialty and do your rotation there. If you're looking at FM, IM, or Pedes, it isn't as important.

That's great that you've gone to NY, Cleveland, and Detroit to get good rotations. I am however happy with my decision to stay in Chicago and have searched out good learning opportunities in the hospitals here.

[MD0690]

Yes and if all you want is Peds, FM or community hospital IM you will do just fine staying at JP. But if you are aiming any higher then you need to forgo the convience of staying in one place and go to better institutions. Not just top flight specialties like derm and ortho, which virtually no IMG is getting into no matter how good your board scores are, but just about any other specialty besides the 3 mentioned above. OB is also becoming very easy.

The reason I jumped on what was bad about JP is because you spent a lot of time talking about what a good experience you had there and I am telling you from talking to Attendings and others who have rotated there the overwhelming advice was to go somewhere else if possible.

And of course you have to have the board scores to get in. The PD is never going to see your application if you don't have the board scores. His/her secratary keeps the low board score apps in a pile on her desk with the other not a chance applicants. Guess what, everyone applying to any given specialty has similar board scores. All 200+ of them. So as an IMG you will have to find ways to stand out and doing your rotations at an FM only hospital is a great way to stand out, in a bad way.

Michael Reese has great teaching and still has a reputation with the old timers as a good teaching hospital. Cook County has the name but the teaching can be hit or miss sometimes depending on where the residents come from(Rush, Northwestern, UIC, etc.) I have heard of people getting electives at Mt. Sinai but could not myself when I inquired. I had a bad experience with Peds and the doctor through Luthern General which is now the outpatient portion of the JP rotation from what I am told. 11 students with one attending and 3 exam rooms. He was taking students from 4 different med schools.

Maybe these things at those hospitals has changed but one thing has not. JP has 5 spots for FM every year and they filled only 1 through the match this year. This not much different than previous years. PD's see this and know where you worked and who you are working with and then those 4 "outstanding" evaluations you got on rotations there suddenly don't mean as much. You don't have to like it but that is straight from a PD's mouth.

And I not bashing FM. My wife is in FM, I am doing my prelim year in FM and if you want to do FM like my wife, good for you. She went to a US school and had board scores good enough to go into rads or ortho. If FM is your thing I hope you go to the place you want. But if you have ideas about other specialties you have to be careful where you clerk. you are am IMG, like me, and so the rest of your CV is going to have to look a little better to compete.

[MD0690]

I take it that if you don't have a letter from a pediatrics core you shouldn't apply med-peds? What happened, i.e. did he get med-peds anyway?

Actually yes. At the place he did his IM rotaiton I believe. He was very worried b/c the Peds PD grilled him on why he had his Peds stuff in so late. He is a smart guy and apparently handled the grilling pretty well. Another Ross success story there.