Violating TOS in the CMU forum

[Doc]

This new forum has come to the VMD Admin's attention because of the large amount of violations of the Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php) despite this forum only having been around for the past couple of weeks. I'm sure there are many theories on what caused this, but we really don't care who started what. We are all expected to act professionally and follow the TOS, regardless of the circumstances...and this has not been the case in this forum thus far.

This doesn't mean that users can't ask difficult questions or debate about different aspects of the school, whether positive or negative. In fact, these things are encouraged. However, school bashing, personal insults, flaming, multiple accounts, school officials criticizing their "competition", trolling, etc, will not be tolerated.

I've also seen some users criticize the participation of School Officials lately. Don't you realize that the participation of School Officials on these forums is one of the greatest benefits that VMD provides? They are the ones who provide official information about their respective schools. VMD is the only website that has such a large amount of input from both unofficial sources (students) and official sources (School Officials). There are currently over 60 School Officials (http://www.valuemd.com/showgroups.php) who participate on the various forums. Showing them anything other than appreciation for their time, regardless of whether you agree with them or not, or whether you like their school or not, simply wouldn't be prudent. And the ironic thing is that most of the ones making those remarks are the same ones demanding official answers to their questions :rolleyes:.

So I'll kindly ask everyone to review your recent posts in this forum for TOS violations, and to examine their posts before submitting them. I'll also ask users to extend the courtesy of professionalism to users and School Officials alike, despite your different points of view. Thanks for your cooperation.

[rlewkowski]

Thank you Doc.
I request all our students to follow the advise, to respect all ValueMD users and not to get involved into any type of school bashing or personal insults.

[atlanticvioxx]

What actually is meant by the term flaming?

[Sree Cheruku]

It's posting deliberately hostile/insulting remarks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war). A flame war is an emotionally heated exchange of these remarks between two or more individuals, which goes on and on till one or both usually get banned.

[atlanticvioxx]

It's posting deliberately hostile/insulting remarks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war). A flame war is an emotionally heated exchange of these remarks between two or more individuals, which goes on and on till one or both usually get banned.


OK: Thanks. Maybe they can go here: http://www.flamechampsnetwork.com/forum/index.php (http://www.flamechampsnetwork.com/forum/index.php)

[seev99]

Hey, I am student here at CMU who transferred from SGU. I just got a message from one of the moderators who was upset and has been historically upset about my optimistic and informative postings about SGU and CMU! Please inform the moderators to similarly follow the Terms of service as well and to respect the opinions of students who can actually provide information. Most of the "irrelevant" and off-topic comments ae coming from the Moderators, Super Moderators, and Gurus of Moderators. Please allow this forum to help those who are interested in CMU get an accurate picture of what the school and facilities are like. Thanks.

[Sree Cheruku]

Please inform the moderators to similarly follow the Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php) as well and to respect the opinions of students who can actually provide information.

As moderators, we simply enforce the rules which keep healthy debates from deteriorating into shouting matches and flame wars. But, as physicians/aspiring physicians, we hold ourselves to a higher standard of ethics and demand the same from all others who choose to enter the profession.
Most of the "irrelevant" and off-topic comments ae coming from the Moderators, Super Moderators, and Gurus of Moderators.

The following comments are neither irrelevant nor off-topic:

1. Academic dishonesty has no place in the medical field - and that includes theft of intellectual property on the CMU website. CMU students and members of the faculty should demand that their administration remove copyrighted content.

2. Intentionally misleading information on this forum must be countered by all members of the ValueMD community, and that includes us moderators. I see a lot of "they made their choice, leave them alone," as though anyone is trying to recruit CMU students. And, what about prospective students? They deserve a balanced assessment of the school and a sober understanding of life (or lack thereof) in medical school.

3. A curriculum that is unique is not necessarily one that works, and for a new school to experiment with such curricula is reckless and does a real disservice to the students. I think we should have a real discussion on this forum on the merits of the type of curriculum that CMU is trying to implement. I've suggested that students include a portrait of their academic life in their videos - and maybe that will spark a discussion. At the very least, naysayers like myself will be better educated about this form of teaching.

4. Having attended a 4-month-old school myself, I know how it feels to have your future intimately linked to that of your school. So, I have more sympathy for seev99's comparisons of CMU to far better places. In fact, if you look through the first 50 threads in the AUA forum, my posts are probably similar to his. (And, I'm going to destroy all evidence of them someday.) My AUA consisted of a refurbished warehouse with a handful of teachers and a library the size of my living room. It wasn't Cornell or SGU, but myself and many of my friends made the most of the situation, studied, passed our classes - and all of us ended up with 90+ on Step 1. In the end, that's all that matters - not folded laundry, Indian food, basketballs, or hot Venezuelan girls.

[stephew]

Hey, I am student here at CMU who transferred from SGU. I just got a message from one of the moderators who was upset and has been historically upset about my optimistic and informative postings about SGU and CMU! Please inform the moderators to similarly follow the <a href=http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php><a href=http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php>Terms of Service</a></a> as well and to respect the opinions of students who can actually provide information. Most of the "irrelevant" and off-topic comments ae coming from the Moderators, Super Moderators, and Gurus of Moderators. Please allow this forum to help those who are interested in CMU get an accurate picture of what the school and facilities are like. Thanks.
if you see a post that is in violation of tos, including that of a moderator, feel free to report it. However the arguement that "others do it too" is not a defense for anyone who violates tos. you may "allow this forum to help those interested in cmu..." within the terms of service.

[teratos]

Hey, I am student here at CMU who transferred from SGU. I just got a message from one of the moderators who was upset and has been historically upset about my optimistic and informative postings about SGU and CMU! Please inform the moderators to similarly follow the Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php) as well and to respect the opinions of students who can actually provide information. Most of the "irrelevant" and off-topic comments ae coming from the Moderators, Super Moderators, and Gurus of Moderators. Please allow this forum to help those who are interested in CMU get an accurate picture of what the school and facilities are like. Thanks.

You guys can't truly expect that the cheerleading will go unopposed, can you?? You come out with a very aggressive marketing campaign, multiple posts (rah rah rah) and videos (which really are kinda entertaining), and you are going to get opposition. I, for one, have seen too many schools go under, and too many good people get burned. I am always extremely skeptical of new schools, and you will always find me posting caveats in the fora of new schools. Nothing against you, personally. I firmly believe that students should be steered away from new schools until they have proven themselves. A few years down the road, I will reassess things. You can find my "negative" posts in the fora of St. Christopher's (I was right, there), and AUA ( which is doing pretty well, as far as I can tell). Please don't take offense if I counter what you say with questions, or an opposing view point. I am here to help people make the best decision they possibly can, and at this point in time, I don't see CMU as a good choice. G

[DocRon]

Teratos,

I agree with the majority of everything you say as you are one of the more experienced VMD members. My quick question is, you say that you generally tell students to stay away from new schools until they have a proven themselves, however, how does a school prove themselves without new students? At the start of SGU and Ross, to the start of SJSM and AUA, students were discouraged from attending them because yes, they are riskier than attending US school. When I first started at SJSM I was told by many not to go there because it is a new school, unproven, doesnt have many student, no graduates, and no licensed Physicians. 3.5 years later it has more students, more graduates in residency and licensed Physicians.
Basically, Grace and St. Chris are examples of when Carib schools go wrong. However there are quite a few schools within the last 8 years that show when Carib schools go right. In either case there had to be students who took that chance and felt that their needs could/ would be met at the school they chose. So although CMU is new (with many kinks to straighten out, esp. ECFMG/IMED/WHO etc.), the trailblazers may set the pace for how well this school does in the future. Can't really encourage or discourage prospective students at this point because it is just too early to say much of anything right now... Only time will tell... Do you agree with me?

Sorry for intruding... this forum has gotten a lot of attention and caught mine as well. I also needed to build up my posts (at this rate i will never reach my ultimate goal....to surpass Teratos's post count)...I am gone again... Bye

Ron

P.S. Good Luck to everyone in the Caribbean School System...

[teratos]

Teratos,

I agree with the majority of everything you say as you are one of the more experienced VMD members. My quick question is, you say that you generally tell students to stay away from new schools until they have a proven themselves, however, how does a school prove themselves without new students? At the start of SGU and Ross, to the start of SJSM and AUA, students were discouraged from attending them because yes, they are riskier than attending US school. When I first started at SJSM I was told by many not to go there because it is a new school, unproven, doesnt have many student, no graduates, and no licensed Physicians. 3.5 years later it has more students, more graduates in residency and licensed Physicians.
Basically, Grace and St. Chris are examples of when Carib schools go wrong. However there are quite a few schools within the last 8 years that show when Carib schools go right. In either case there had to be students who took that chance and felt that their needs could/ would be met at the school they chose. So although CMU is new (with many kinks to straighten out, esp. ECFMG/IMED/WHO etc.), the trailblazers may set the pace for how well this school does in the future. Can't really encourage or discourage prospective students at this point because it is just too early to say much of anything right now... Only time will tell... Do you agree with me?

Sorry for intruding... this forum has gotten a lot of attention and caught mine as well. I also needed to build up my posts (at this rate i will never reach my ultimate goal....to surpass Teratos's post count)...I am gone again... Bye

Ron

P.S. Good Luck to everyone in the Caribbean School System...

I think it is wise to let other people be the guinea pigs. Let's say CMU turns out to be the best school in the region. What have you gained by going to CMU vs. SGU? Nothing.

What have you lost? There are several states you will never be able to practice in. They don't have CA approval, so that leaves out the states that go by the CA list. I think there are a couple of states which don't allow you to practice if your school hasn't been around for X years, as well.

What if the school goes belly up? You are hosed.

People may say that all great discoveries were made by people willing to take a chance. I would say that is true. I would also say that you cannot call getting an M.D. a "great discovery". It is kind of routine.

If you are going to the corner store, would you take an experimental rocket that nobody flew in, or would you hop in your trusty car and drive? I would take the safer, tried and true route. Even if the rocket gets you there, you still end up at the corner store, with a lot less risk.

I think discouraging people from this particular school until other people have taken the risk and proven it to be a viable option is the wise thing to do. Doesn't that make sense?

[AUCMD2006]

doc ron,

you also forget that there are far more examples of schools going belly up than there are success stories...on top of grace and st chris you can add kigezi, medical college of london, st luke, oceania, there were 1 or two more in american samoa, there is that one in mexico using a charter from off shore. and i wonder how many more have taken money and closed. someone on the asia forum said there are quite a few of these that start and close in china that cater to students from india and the US

the ones who have had success so far have been SMU and AUA, st james is catching up. then the jury is still way out on xavier and its many incarnati0ons, st theresa and martinus seem to be stagnant or heding down, american global, now that whole stewart fiasco in california and cmu

when all is said and done get into the best most established school you can. if at the end of the day you are willing to risk a new school then go for it knowing the risks and limitations. your gamble paid off, why don't you ask the students at grace, kigezi, st luke etc if the gamble was worth it?

it really does feel like the matrix on this website...it has happened before, it will happen again. any time a new school opens it is like dejavu

[stephew]

i think that doc ron is asking a philosophical question rather than one that's pragmatci to any given student. teratos, who i agree with, is answering from the standpoint of a student making a decsion. you go with what is known to work. he outlines the "why" extremely well. dont worry about who will give cmu a chance; its not up to the prospective students to take care of any new school to assure that it gets the chance to succeed. its up to the school to assure a student that they should spend an enormous amount of time and money on them so they will be able to practice good medicine.

[DocRon]

Agreed Stephew. But it IS a symbiotic relationship with school and students, no? A school can not be successful no matter how hard they try or how much they invest if they do not attract new students and new students can not be successful if the the school does not provide for the students the knowledge, resources and means needed to succeed.
Remember if it were not for "Guinea pigs" there may not be a Dr. Stephew or Dr. Teratos (or Dr. Ron) today. SGU, AUC, Ross, SJSM all started with such "guinea pigs" and for them I think we should be thankful, because they paved the way for you and me.
Talking about the rocket to the corner store vs the car, I agree with the safer choice. But with advances in everything including medicine, there needs to be people that are willing to be the first. That is how all these clinical trials are conducted and is how all these great meds that we prescribe everyday get approved. Again, there are a few that turn out to cause more harm than good (similiar to some schools doing more harm than good) but with time is when these things are discovered.
You and several others would not wanna be the first to start anything new, and that is fine, your choice and is the is the safest way to go. But some others might be willing to (for whatever personal reasons), and that does not necessarily mean that they are making a mistake. Only time will tell how well their decision works out for them.

Ron

P.S. This is just an open discussion....

[stateofequilibrium]

Agreed Stephew. But it IS a symbiotic relationship with school and students, no? A school can not be successful no matter how hard they try or how much they invest if they do not attract new students and new students can not be successful if the the school does not provide for the students the knowledge, resources and means needed to succeed.
Remember if it were not for "Guinea pigs" there may not be a Dr. Stephew or Dr. Teratos (or Dr. Ron) today. SGU, AUC, Ross, SJSM all started with such "guinea pigs" and for them I think we should be thankful, because they paved the way for you and me.
Talking about the rocket to the corner store vs the car, I agree with the safer choice. But with advances in everything including medicine, there needs to be people that are willing to be the first. That is how all these clinical trials are conducted and is how all these great meds that we prescribe everyday get approved. Again, there are a few that turn out to cause more harm than good (similiar to some schools doing more harm than good) but with time is when these things are discovered.
You and several others would not wanna be the first to start anything new, and that is fine, your choice and is the is the safest way to go. But some others might be willing to (for whatever personal reasons), and that does not necessarily mean that they are making a mistake. Only time will tell how well their decision works out for them.

Ron

P.S. This is just an open discussion....

And I wish those that do all the success they can get. But it still doesn't change the fact that if you have ANY other option, DON'T be a pioneer when it comes to your medical education. The risks are too great and stacked against you in terms of time, money, and any type of career in medicine.

Even should you and your school succeed down the line, you will STILL be restricted in where you can practice.

So on the philosophical level, yes, there has to always been pioneers to make something work. But pioneers live rough and hard lives and a lot don't make it through.

[DocRon]

Point taken SOE and I agree 100% that medical education is something you dont wanna risk given the time, money etc. But pretty much every student that has graduated from a school outside of the Big 4 or 5 that does not have Cali approval or been around more than 15 years have the same state restrictions, right? Also, if a student does not get into one of the Big 4 or 5 as there are still X amount of spots in these schools, what are they to do? Should they give up on their dream or find another option that is made available in a newer school that will suit their needs?

[jtu]

Hi
Friends!!
It is good to spark a healthy debate on--"New Caribbean Medical Schools--Why and Why not???
We need New upcoming Caribbean Medical School because--It is too expensive and too competitive in US medical School to get admission.
So,definitely Caribbean Medical School is a suitable destination for many aspiring medical students to fit into lower tuition fees and lower competition there.
However, most of the established caribbean medical schools' owners do not want to allow new schools to come up there.It is quite natural.They do not want competition.But competetion will definitely encourage better performance to improve facilities and thus quality of the product --here higher USMLE passing rate.
It is true that Government approval,WHO enlisting,ECFMG enlisting etc are essential and new schools will take sometime to get it done.But those schools need to arrange proper facilities for the aspiring students.It is not possible the get approval before starting the school.
But most of the posters and moderators in the ValueMD are interested to ignore the facisilities available in a new school and not ready to give them some time to get their papers approved.They are showing ignorance about the history of all other schools.It is unfair to create panic and uncertainity in the mind of students and fortell future of any new school.
The class rooms of the established schools are too crowded and tuition fees are much higher.So, some students are ready to take risk in new schools and not always because those students are not good students.
It is difficult to convince previllaged group of students --why economically compromised students want to take risks and study hard to compete in their life?
Because underprivilaged students are there to support--low budget new schools will survive all antagonism by the big schools.Regards.

[stephew]

1) you do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.

2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if youre going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.

[MYMD]

1) you do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.

2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if youre going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.


points well taken

I really think these schools can fill a need too, but honesty is always best.

[teratos]

1) you do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.

2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if youre going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.

I would say that about sums it up. G

[teratos]

Remember if it were not for "Guinea pigs" there may not be a Dr. Stephew or Dr. Teratos (or Dr. Ron) today. SGU, AUC, Ross, SJSM all started with such "guinea pigs" and for them I think we should be thankful, because they paved the way for you and me.


I understand the spirit of what you are saying. AUC was established in 1978, there were thousands of practicing docs out there when I applied. I started in 1996. I can't say that going to a school that has been producing successful grads for 18 years felt much like an experiment.

You also made an analogy that going to a new school was like a clinical trial for a new wonder drug. I would liken a new medical school to a drug that a company is testing that promises to do the same thing as motrin. Not anything wonderful, by any stretch of the imagination. Of course, since it hasn't been tested, we don't know if it will kill you, or make you grow a finger out of your forehead. Why not just take a motrin? It may cost a little more than the new drug, but you can avoid any unknown side effects.

Also, in terms of clinical trials, they wait a while before they test on humans.....so the people who go first are truly guinea pigs. G

[stephew]

yes but here's the thing; you dont need to be a guinea pig nowadays unless you fail to get into another school. ive said 3 times that its not the 1970's anymore. the field has changed. the arguement that well established schools once were new too and so its just as good to for a prospective with other choices to "guinea pig" themselves to new schools today doesnt come close to getting of the ground to fly.

[AUCMD2006]

I understand the spirit of what you are saying. AUC was established in 1978, there were thousands of practicing docs out there when I applied. I started in 1996. I can't say that going to a school that has been producing successful grads for 18 years felt much like an experiment.

You also made an analogy that going to a new school was like a clinical trial for a new wonder drug. I would liken a new medical school to a drug that a company is testing that promises to do the same thing as motrin. Not anything wonderful, by any stretch of the imagination. Of course, since it hasn't been tested, we don't know if it will kill you, or make you grow a finger out of your forehead. Why not just take a motrin? It may cost a little more than the new drug, but you can avoid any unknown side effects.

Also, in terms of clinical trials, they wait a while before they test on humans.....so the people who go first are truly guinea pigs. G

great analogy and a few real life examples to boot. i can't remember the name for the life of me but in the late 90's there actually was a new 'motrin' that was prescription only, non narcotic, with the same pain treatment profile as percocet. turns out that a ton of people went into liver failure and some died from the new 'motrin'.

i guess the pharm companies failed to realize that many pain pts lie about how much vicodin with tylenol they take and their livers are on the way out to begin with

there was also a diabetes one i can't remember. but either way good analogy.

[DocRon]

I understand the spirit of what you are saying. AUC was established in 1978, there were thousands of practicing docs out there when I applied. I started in 1996. I can't say that going to a school that has been producing successful grads for 18 years felt much like an experiment.

You also made an analogy that going to a new school was like a clinical trial for a new wonder drug. I would liken a new medical school to a drug that a company is testing that promises to do the same thing as motrin. Not anything wonderful, by any stretch of the imagination. Of course, since it hasn't been tested, we don't know if it will kill you, or make you grow a finger out of your forehead. Why not just take a motrin? It may cost a little more than the new drug, but you can avoid any unknown side effects.

Also, in terms of clinical trials, they wait a while before they test on humans.....so the people who go first are truly guinea pigs. G

Good deal... I think our posts are food-for-thought for prospective students considering Caribbean medical education.

[jtu]

HI
Friends!!!
Here is a report from Ex-Students’ Association, send after e-mail voting from the past and present students of four non-Big-B Caribbean schools:
You do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.


-------84% students reported that they joined Caribbean schools because US schools are “too expensive”.
67% of those students never applied for US schools, therefore, fail /pass was not a question.
--------52% of those students never made an attempt to join Big-B’ in Caribbean schools, because they wanted to join a school where teacher student ratio is less than 1:200.
-------42% of students were not interested to practice in states like California, Texus, Florida where job opportunity are very less.
2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

-------62% of those students made attempts in middle class schools that were their first choice and they joined there.
-------56% of the past students passed USMLE Steps in first attempt.
3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

---------72% students visited all four middle class schools personally before deciding for one.
4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.


--------48% students are economically underprivileged and they decided to take risk in newer schools because all established schools had the same stories regarding lower competition,lower tuition and no WHO,IMED,ECFMG but presently they are asking higher tuition fees.
---------73% students reported that Big-B schools are overcrowded and teacher: student is not less than 1:200 and students get least individual attention or help from faculty.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.
-------------66% students reported that money is the prime criterion for them.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.


----------Repeat: 56% of the past students of those schools passed USMLE steps in single attempt.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if you are going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.
------- 96% members from ex-students’ association reported to oppose propaganda of the representatives of Big-B’s in Caribbean and supporting the current slogan--“Long live New Caribbean schools and defeat all antagonisms.”
---------------------------------------------------------------

[RUknight]

-------84% students reported that they joined Caribbean schools because US schools are “too expensive”.
67% of those students never applied for US schools, therefore, fail /pass was not a question.
--------52% of those students never made an attempt to join Big-B’ in Caribbean schools, because they wanted to join a school where teacher student ratio is less than 1:200.
-------42% of students were not interested to practice in states like California, Texus, Florida where job opportunity are very less.
---------------------------------------------------------------

wow....im speechless :rolleyes:

[rokshana]

I agree with you RU- I too am speechless (and that takes a lot of doin'!!)

I...I....I... have no IDEA how to respond!!!! it just BOGGLES the mind....

[teratos]

I would owe a hell of a lot less than I do now if I had gone to a US school. Plus, I would have been closer to home, my wife could have worked etc. It is a lot more expensive to live in the Caribbean than in the US.

jtu.......I CALL SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :southpark:


I just polled the ex-ex-students association (it only took a minute)
- 78% preferred goat to beef upon their return
- 68% were frustrated because they couldn't find Vita-Malt in their local stores
- 56% had chosen to adopt the accent of the island where they studied

[Scott1981]

i got into harvard medical school, but i turned them down because i wanted the island experience and it was cheaper. :roll:

[slevit1]

hahahahahahahaha....lmao!!

Your posts are always good for a laugh, jtu.

I don't know that it's posibble to respond to everything you've written since, well, a lot of it isn't really english. Sure, you generally use English words, but you usually don't seem to care to much about forming sentences. But, a couple of points:
1) What's a "Big-B" school? I wanna go to one, I think
2) 72.3% of statistics are made up

“Long live New Caribbean schools and defeat all antagonisms.”
You should make that your signature! It's catchy.

[stephew]

im at harvard. turns out everyone here was turned down by a caribbean school.

steph
(and the SGU of New England).

[teratos]

im at harvard. turns out everyone here was turned down by a caribbean school.

steph
(and the SGU of New England).

I KNEW it......

[stateofequilibrium]

im at harvard. turns out everyone here was turned down by a caribbean school.

steph
(and the SGU of New England).

Harvard must be a DO school

[stephew]

Harvard must be a DO school

they applied but the DO people turned them down.

[jtu]

Hi
Friends!!
Let us ask--"Teacher:Students ratio less than 1:200"-- is prefered or not???
Sincere remarks are most welcome.Regards.

[Scott1981]

Hi
Friends!!
Let us ask--"Teacher:Students ratio less than 1:200"-- is prefered or not???
Sincere remarks are most welcome.Regards.

you seem to be trying to moderate what topics will be discussed in this forum trying to shield cmu from criticism. this forum will not be censored..... even by this roundabout way.

[rokshana]

Hi
Friends!!
Let us ask--"Teacher:Students ratio less than 1:200"-- is prefered or not???
Sincere remarks are most welcome.Regards.

just shows you how one can manipulate numbers...

sure lecture may have 1 prof, but you are certainly not pointing out the number of small group interactions that the more established schools have with in a course.

For example, in biochem, there are at least 4 small group session where there is one prof per 8-10 students, Clinical Skills in the 1st and 2nd terms where you meet with 1 prof per 8-10 students (meets every other week), anatomy, where (at least in my day) you were 5 per cadaver and had interactions with a number of the anatomy profs, histology lab where your group of 4-5 had on prof for 2 hours at their lab table- that is just 1st term!!

Almost every basic science course worth more than 3 credits had some sort of small group where the student:teacher ratio is <10:1.

the pro that you do NOT point out of having a large and diverse student body is the HELP that you find with having soo many people. In my study group my 1st term, I had a biochem major from Dartmouth- so if i had a any problems with biochem, i had a great resource right next to me, another one was a PA before coming to med school-he had good insight into the clincal aspects that where brought up before I had a chance to experience it myself. There were also JDs, Ph.D, Pharm.Ds, Masters in almost everyfield- all GREAT resources for information.

My professors knew my name when i was their student and remembered me enough to write good letters of recommendations 2 years later. Just becuase there are a lot of students in your class doesn't mean you can't get the proper attention

[teratos]

Hi
Friends!!
Let us ask--"Teacher:Students ratio less than 1:200"-- is prefered or not???
Sincere remarks are most welcome.Regards.

What if CMU turns out to be the best school in the world....will the ratio remain 1:200?

[IMG SURVIVOR]

What if CMU turns out to be the best school in the world....will the ratio remain 1:200?

Let me think,,,, wait let me think again,,,,, that is a really hard question.
Teratos you need to ask questions that are more easy to answer:rolleyes:

[stephew]

Hi
Friends!!
Let us ask--"Teacher:Students ratio less than 1:200"-- is prefered or not???
Sincere remarks are most welcome.Regards.

if youre going to Remedial School of Medicine, a very low student to teacher ratio is probably a good thing. But for most of us, med school isnt expected to need student: teacher ratios that would be the envy of private kindergartens

[stephew]

What if CMU turns out to be the best school in the world....will the ratio remain 1:200?

hmm harvard's ratio is isn't 1:12... crap school i guess. no wonder the DO folks wouldnt take them.

[Scott1981]

hmm harvard's ratio is isn't 1:12... poop school i guess. no wonder the DO folks wouldnt take them.

more vague answers from school administrators :lol:

is harvard's ratio 1:12 or is it not?

steph, your credibility is at stake here :lol:

[stephew]

sorry isnt.
im not a school admin in any way.
so im ok if my credibility is shakey.

[jtu]

more vague answers from school administrators :lol:

is harvard's ratio 1:12 or is it not?

steph, your credibility is at stake here
--------------------------------------------

Hi
Friends!!!

Let me ask:
How many days will it take to get an appointment to meet a Professor where Teacher:student ratio is not less than 1:200?
( or,once in blue moon ,in small group teaching 1:12 ratio seems O.K. )
Only honest responses are welcome.No vague answers please.

[jameslynton]

....will it take to get an appointment to meet a Professor where Teacher:student ratio is not less than 1:200?
( or,once in blue moon ,in small group teaching 1:12 ratio seems O.K. )
Only honest responses are welcome.No vague answers please.You know this depends on the Prof - at Emory I had 300+ to 1 in organic chem - yet he found time to see all the students who waited for him everyday. So I guess I don't see your point - perhaps I am confused due to lack of sleep.

[Scott1981]

Hi
Friends!!!

Let me ask:
How many days will it take to get an appointment to meet a Professor where Teacher:student ratio is not less than 1:200?
( or,once in blue moon ,in small group teaching 1:12 ratio seems O.K. )
Only honest responses are welcome.No vague answers please.

i dont know, why dont you ask the students at MOST of the other caribbean schools that are imed listed and under 200 students in a class. :roll:

for me at auc, we had on average about 60 in our class. if we had any questions, we stayed after class to talk to the proffesor or popped into their office during office hours..... no appointment needed.

for the largest auc class (sept) there are usually about 150-180 students. from what i have seen and heard, nothing was different.

even for a class over 200 students..... like many us medical schools mind you...... you cant expect the professors to not have time to answer a few questions during office hours.

are you implying that the professors should be private tutors? thats really the only way that i can see professors not have time...... and rightfully so. :shock:

[stateofequilibrium]

more vague answers from school administrators :lol:

is harvard's ratio 1:12 or is it not?

steph, your credibility is at stake here
--------------------------------------------

Hi
Friends!!!

Let me ask:
How many days will it take to get an appointment to meet a Professor where Teacher:student ratio is not less than 1:200?
( or,once in blue moon ,in small group teaching 1:12 ratio seems O.K. )
Only honest responses are welcome.No vague answers please.

I dunno, I've never had to make an appointment to see a professor before. I just go to their office, knock, and ask my questions.

[DRDRWMD]

I have found my AUC professors always had time when I had questions. If there were too many people, we would go as groups and gang up on the professors. If we ran out of room in their offices, we went into larger offices.

[stephew]

do you know a ratio of 1:200 means? It doesnt mean 200 people in a class. it meas 1 prof for every 200 students. so that would be 5 profs for 1000 students. Hope that's not too vague. Unless you dont understand the ratio issue, Id ask what is the relevance of your question (leaving aside that med school isnt a remedial program). And while we're talking definitions and clarity; I am not an administrator.



more vague answers from school administrators :lol:

is harvard's ratio 1:12 or is it not?

steph, your credibility is at stake here
--------------------------------------------

Hi
Friends!!!

Let me ask:
How many days will it take to get an appointment to meet a Professor where Teacher:student ratio is not less than 1:200?
( or,once in blue moon ,in small group teaching 1:12 ratio seems O.K. )
Only honest responses are welcome.No vague answers please.

[stephew]

same with me at sgu. I dunno, I've never had to make an appointment to see a professor before. I just go to their office, knock, and ask my questions.

[studentdoctobe]

Perhaps the TOS needs to be UPDATED; with regards to "multiple accounts" and it's FAIRNESS.

[stephew]

Perhaps the TOS needs to be UPDATED; with regards to "multiple accounts" and it's FAIRNESS.
and whining. updated with regard to whining. definitely infraction worthy.

[stateofequilibrium]

TOS violations are getting rampant in this forum. All you are veteran users and should know better. Infractions will start being handed out at a much quicker rate. OBEY THE TERMS OF SERVICE! You should know better than the flame/insult/use obscene language/personal information/etc.

[ansom]

Hi ALL

I like to repeat here again that I am no way related to CMU and I posting here as I felt that members are of the opinion that I am one of the CMU offcials. I saw some comments on my account in this regard.

I am quite busy with my own work and even I do not have much time to spend here.

As an independent obesrver, I can say the CMU efforts to establish the MED school are far better than any new MED school. They are able to procure better faculty members in the first phase itself.

They did not do any wrong in starting the classes wihtout their own charter. Do not forgot that they are affiliated to CIU. Any person having little sense will understand this.

Bye.

[byteme]

Hi ALL

They did not do any wrong in starting the classes wihtout their own charter. Do not forgot that they are affiliated to CIU. Any person having little sense will understand this.

Bye.

Hi ANSOM

Do not forget that CIU is not listed in IMED either, and their charter says NOTHING about being permitted to teach M-E-D-I-C-I-N-E.

Any person having sense will understand why these courses are useless.

Bye.

[TonyIvey]

Can a mod please explain the infrction deal, how does the numbers add up or what they mean. What does 1/0 mean over 1/1 or 0/4.

[AUCMD2006]

Hi ALL

I like to repeat here again that I am no way related to CMU and I posting here as I felt that members are of the opinion that I am one of the CMU offcials. I saw some comments on my account in this regard.

I am quite busy with my own work and even I do not have much time to spend here.

As an independent obesrver, I can say the CMU efforts to establish the MED school are far better than any new MED school. They are able to procure better faculty members in the first phase itself.

They did not do any wrong in starting the classes wihtout their own charter. Do not forgot that they are affiliated to CIU. Any person having little sense will understand this.

Bye.


the offer still stands to trace your ip, you requested it in another post and i offered to do it. sorry but to anyone who has been on this site more than a year your posts scream school official

[rlewkowski]

sorry but to anyone who has been on this site more than a year your posts scream school official

I totally agree

[byteme]

the offer still stands to trace your ip, you requested it in another post and i offered to do it. sorry but to anyone who has been on this site more than a year your posts scream school official

I totally agree

Umm...Mr. RL, did you just agree with AUC's statement that ansom's "posts scream school official"?

Wow. Interesting development.

[stephew]

STAY ON TOPIC. The whole point of this thread is the CMU forum is under more strict moderation. this includes staying on topic in this thread. No further warning will be given prior to infractions.

[stephew]

Can a mod please explain the infrction deal, how does the numbers add up or what they mean. What does 1/0 mean over 1/1 or 0/4.

denominator is total infractions ever by user. numerator is current infractions which, after a certain number, lead to a temp ban of some duration or permenant ban
.\

[rlewkowski]

STAY ON TOPIC. The whole point of this thread is the CMU forum is under more strict moderation. this includes staying on topic in this thread. No further warning will be given prior to infractions.

Thank you Stephew.

[emt036]

Hmm, looks like vB is having a math problem though - how does one have 2 current infractions, but only 1 total infraction? :-)

[Doc]

Can a mod please explain the infrction deal, how does the numbers add up or what they mean. What does 1/0 mean over 1/1 or 0/4.

Hmm, looks like vB is having a math problem though - how does one have 2 current infractions, but only 1 total infraction? :-)

It's all done automatically, but I'm pretty sure that it's as follows:
First number = # of warnings (no points towards ban)
Second number = # of infractions (points towards ban)
Third number (in parenthesis) = # of points which are being counted towards banAlthough most infractions result in 1 infraction point, some result in more than 1 point. For example, flaming would result in 1 infraction point while trolling would result in 3 infraction points. They would be listed as follows (assuming no other warnings/infractions issued):
flaming -> 0/1 (1)
trolling -> 0/1 (3)Since example #2 has 3 points, this would result in an automatic temporary ban, whereas example #1 would not since it has only 1 point.

Hope this helps.

[rokshana]

thanks doc- i know the question has been asked a few times.

[Doc]

To get this thread back on topic, I just wanted to remind everyone that the CMU forum is still under stricter Moderation because of the high number of violations which have occurred. This means that violations can result in immediate infractions without courtesy PMs, whether they were just posted or if they were posted a while ago. Therefore, we strongly urge users to review your posts before submitting them, and review any posts you've recently posted in this forum.

I'm mentioning this again because users obviously ignored previous warnings as at least 5 different users received infractions today alone, including at least one auto temporary ban :shock:. I believe that all were for personal insults and/or flaming.

Just to clarify, name-calling, whether true or not, is considered a personal insult/flaming and is against the Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php). The example I always use is the obese child of an unwed mother being called a "fat bastard". Although technically true, this is still name-calling and a personal insult. To put this into perspective, if you feel someone is being dishonest, rather than violating the TOS by calling someone a liar, scam artist, etc, dispute their statements with your own and let the readers come to their own conclusions.

We're all part of the prestigious medical field. Please try to post in a professional manner which reflects this. Thanks for your cooperation.

[stephew]

in short, no negotiations. manpants up folks.

[byteme]

Sorry for beating a dead horse, but could you please explain the bans? Is the first ban a week, second a month and third permanent?

Also, can a person who is permanently banned still receive/check their pm's?

Thanks

[Doc]

Sorry for beating a dead horse, but could you please explain the bans? Is the first ban a week, second a month and third permanent?

Also, can a person who is permanently banned still receive/check their pm's?

Thanks

As far as auto bans go, they depend on the number of infractions points received as follows:

3 points = 1 week temp ban
6 points = 2 week temp ban
9 points = 3 week temp ban
10 points = permanent banKeep in mind that the above occur automatically. However, a manual ban can occur at any time regardless of the number of points received, if any. Also keep in mind that the above is subject to change at any time without notice.

I believe that PM features are disabled during bans.

Hope this helps.