Clinical Spots for CMU

[socalheli]

can you post a list of the places where your students will rotate for their clinical years, specifics would be nice.

[teratos]

Ignore the places in PA. They don't let IMGs rotate....

[DOCplucinski]

i thought NJ is the same way, they are listed on thier site

[Sree Cheruku]

Yep, after Ross got NJ approval, it's president (currently our president) authored a new law and got it passed by the state legislature that made it very difficult for newer schools to get approved for clinical rotations in the state. I don't think any school since then has been approved.

[socalheli]

*****, can you please give us your input.

if currently CMU does not have any clinical spots and you plan to have them in place by the time 3rd year rolls around please let us know. if they are already in place please let us know. if you are in negotiation's and you cannot disclose please let us know.

we just want some answers no matter how good or bad. please fill us in.

[stephew]

i think whats important is for the school offical to state exactly where the lcinicals are. the web list clearly isnt set or else the PA site (which he's since said is a no go for the reasons vmd members stated) wouldn't be on it. can you clarify.

[emt036]

And the names of the hospitals with contact information for the person that is the clinical coordinator/director of medical education for that hospital would be appreciated so that prospective students can get 3rd party verification as well.

[rokshana]

And the names of the hospitals with contact information for the person that is the clinical coordinator/director of medical education for that hospital would be appreciated so that prospective students can get 3rd party verification as well.

well to be honest this isn't something that any of the other schools do - posting the names of the hospitals is common practice, but coordinator info IS usually kept in house.

[emt036]

Actually, SGU does it (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/som/affiliated-hospitals.html)...

[rokshana]

Actually, SGU does it (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/som/affiliated-hospitals.html)...


ooooooooo pretty!!!!!!!
i haven't seen it since they revamped it!!! nice!!!

[drforlife]

they should use google maps instead of mapuest ;-)

[cavalletti]

i think whats important is for the school offical to state exactly where the lcinicals are. the web list clearly isnt set or else the PA site (which he's since said is a no go for the reasons vmd members stated) wouldn't be on it. can you clarify.

Specifically, where are the Canadian sites? The website mentioned that there were clinical sites in Canada.

[jtu]

We discussed with CMU students about clinical spots.They confirmed that thay know they know the names of the hospitals and number of clinical spots available.They happy with the informations provided by the CMU administration.
It is not a common practice to advertize the names of the hospitals,names of co-ordinators etc due to privacy reasons and other TOS to follow.
However,CMU administration confirmed that CMU is open to accept transfer students from other schools for the clinical posts.The primary criterion is the result of USMLE-step-1.Students who are interested can contact soon.The open spots are likely to be filled up by Sept Semester.
Some of my friends from other schools already applied.Regards.

[AUCMD2006]

We discussed with CMU students about clinical spots.They confirmed that thay know they know the names of the hospitals and number of clinical spots available.They happy with the informations provided by the CMU administration.
It is not a common practice to advertize the names of the hospitals,names of co-ordinators etc due to privacy reasons and other TOS to follow.
However,CMU administration confirmed that CMU is open to accept transfer students from other schools for the clinical posts.The primary criterion is the result of USMLE-step-1.Students who are interested can contact soon.The open spots are likely to be filled up by Sept Semester.
Some of my friends from other schools already applied.Regards.


actually it is pretty standard to list the names of the hospitals..look at most school websites and they are right there for you to see. the few schools that don't list them or haven't listed them allways have their students boasting about how great the sites are, ivy league, etc but can never say exactly where the sites are..st cris was one of these and currently st eustatuis is running the same scam.

it is easy to set up 'rotations' trouble is if you are following the rules it is much more difdficult. for example what some schools, and a private company that sets up rotations for schools, have done in the past is contract private doctors and have their students shadow themn and follow them into the hospitals they have privilidges at...then the school claims they have rotations at X hospital when the students are really doing observeships througfh a doctor and really aren't suppposed to touch patients. the way it is meant to be set up so it counts for your degree for cores are full affiliation contracts with hospitals, not private physicians, to take x number of students on a regular basis. and for electives you also have to go through the med ed department of the hospital and not the private doc....

so as students just be aware of some tactics schools use in clinicals...not saying cmu is doing this they may have full contracts i am just saying it has happened before and it will happen again. it just makes me wonder just like with st chirs, and estatia, if there are full contrcats with hospitals why would they be afraid of lossing sites?

[rokshana]

It is not a common practice to advertize the names of the hospitals,names of co-ordinators etc due to privacy reasons and other TOS to follow.


actually not so true

SABA University - www.saba.edu - international medical university college (http://www.saba.edu/admissions_curriculum_ha.php)

American University of the Caribbean (http://www.aucmed.edu/students/ushospitals.htm)

ROSS UNIVERSITY: Hospital Affiliations (http://www.rossu.edu/med/academics/hospitalaffil_051.cfm)

Affiliated Hospitals - School of Medicine - St. George’s University (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/som/affiliated-hospitals.html)

releasing contact info is unusual- only sgu seems to do it, but the others schools are quite proud of their affliations and have them listed on their respective websites.

[rlewkowski]

Everyone willing to know the CMU rotation slots is welcome to call or send an email to the Clinical Depratment to inquire about specific state they want to do the clerkship and to obtain a list of affiliated preceptors.

[DOCplucinski]

Everyone willing to know the CMU rotation slots is welcome to call or send an email to the Clinical Depratment to inquire about specific state they want to do the clerkship and to obtain a list of affiliated preceptors.
just wondering, why isn't the hospital list posted? like it has been brought up, almost all the Caribb schools i've looked at has their hospital affiliations easily accessible.

i think posting them would not raise as many questions as to where your affiliations are.

[emt036]

The school keeps mentioning preceptors - perhaps these rotations are not hospital affiliated, and are merely private MD's in their private offices... Which would not be ACGME/Green Book, thus don't count as rotations when it comes to licensing time in many states. Just thinking out loud - hoping to be proven wrong...

[Scott1981]

The school keeps mentioning preceptors - perhaps these rotations are not hospital affiliated, and are merely private MD's in their private offices... Which would not be ACGME/Green Book, thus don't count as rotations when it comes to licensing time in many states. Just thinking out loud - hoping to be proven wrong...

i agree. all we have heard about from the school official are the various preceptors. it sounds like they dont contact any hospital or have any dealings with them. it appears to be under the table when students do visit the hospital.

so this leaves us with the pennsylvania fiasco because they never did set up anything at a hospital. had they actually had any negotiations or contact with any hospital there, they would have learned that students cant rotate there.

this is all speculation because the school offical has not given a straight answer on this yet, and we all know the school website is not the best source.

so i have a few questions for the school official:

from the pennsylvania issue that you all ran into, it seems as if the clinical rotation location map on your website just listed locations where you established agreements with preceptors.

1. DO YOU HAVE ANY DIRECT AFFILIATIONS SIGNED WITH HOSPITALS IN THE UNITED STATES?

2. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, ARE THEY ACGME GREENBOOK (if unaware, this means the hospital has a residency program in the specialty of rotation or the rotation is run by a LCME accredited medical school).

3. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, HOW MANY HOSPITALS?

4. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, WHERE ARE THOSE HOSPITALS LOCATED (NAME OF HOSPITAL AND ITS LOCATION).

these are 4 simple questions for a school offical to answer. these are 4 questions that a school official should not be afraid to answer publicly because these are vital aspects of the school for potential students researching the school. why should it be a secret? if the school wants to be successful, it should be open to giving out information and not secretive. this is how all the "established" schools (who you seem to want to emulate) do business, and they are fledging with applicants each cycle.

[hrfan]

You mean you are in rotations and don't know whether they are Green book approved or not?? iF NOT HOW WILL YOU GET LICENSED TO PRACTICE AFTER RESIDENCY?

[Scott1981]

You mean you are in rotations and don't know whether they are Green book approved or not?? iF NOT HOW WILL YOU GET LICENSED TO PRACTICE AFTER RESIDENCY?

i am not a student of cmu.

[DOCplucinski]

You mean you are in rotations and don't know whether they are Green book approved or not?? iF NOT HOW WILL YOU GET LICENSED TO PRACTICE AFTER RESIDENCY?
what are you talking about?

[hrfan]

If you do your core rotations at non green places YOU WILL not be able to get license to practice

[hrfan]

During residency the residency program can get the training license but not after the training

[DOCplucinski]

If you do your core rotations at non green places YOU WILL not be able to get license to practice
this is untrue. not all states require green rotations to be done. if unsure, contact your states medical licensing board. although risky, to say you will not be licensed at all is untrue.

[hrfan]

So basically Cali and Texas is out and many other states you are restricted due to non green rotations

[Scott1981]

im looking forward for a response from the school official tommorrow about my questions.

lets keep this thread empty so the my previous post to the school official doesnt get buried and keep it on topic, specifically CMU clinical rotations.

[rokshana]

i agree. all we have heard about from the school official are the various preceptors. it sounds like they dont contact any hospital or have any dealings with them. it appears to be under the table when students do visit the hospital.

so this leaves us with the pennsylvania fiasco because they never did set up anything at a hospital. had they actually had any negotiations or contact with any hospital there, they would have learned that students cant rotate there.

this is all speculation because the school offical has not given a straight answer on this yet, and we all know the school website is not the best source.

so i have a few questions for the school official:

from the pennsylvania issue that you all ran into, it seems as if the clinical rotation location map on your website just listed locations where you established agreements with preceptors.

1. DO YOU HAVE ANY DIRECT AFFILIATIONS SIGNED WITH HOSPITALS IN THE UNITED STATES?

2. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, ARE THEY ACGME GREENBOOK (if unaware, this means the hospital has a residency program in the specialty of rotation or the rotation is run by a LCME accredited medical school).

3. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, HOW MANY HOSPITALS?

4. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, WHERE ARE THOSE HOSPITALS LOCATED (NAME OF HOSPITAL AND ITS LOCATION).

these are 4 simple questions for a school offical to answer. these are 4 questions that a school official should not be afraid to answer publicly because these are vital aspects of the school for potential students researching the school. why should it be a secret? if the school wants to be successful, it should be open to giving out information and not secretive. this is how all the "established" schools (who you seem to want to emulate) do business, and they are fledging with applicants each cycle.

i agree- so i'll quote you to bump it up.

these are not philsophical questions- that have distinct, yes or no questions with specfic answers.

If CMU is a legit school, the school offical should have no proble answering these very relevant questions truthfully, with no vague musings or sent us an email if you are interested in rotating at these places. You know well and good most of us are NOT interested in rotating at these places- we are interested in knowing if they exist at all.

[slevit1]

If CMU is a legit school..

Have we not already established that it is not? Clearly they do not have any affiliated hospitals, just the possibility of preceptors.

They can't take the USMLE, have the same "accreditation" as the local grocery store, and do not have hospital affiliated clinical sites. Assuming you have any intention on practicing in the US, not a legit school.

[Scott1981]

i agree. all we have heard about from the school official are the various preceptors. it sounds like they dont contact any hospital or have any dealings with them. it appears to be under the table when students do visit the hospital.

so this leaves us with the pennsylvania fiasco because they never did set up anything at a hospital. had they actually had any negotiations or contact with any hospital there, they would have learned that students cant rotate there.

this is all speculation because the school offical has not given a straight answer on this yet, and we all know the school website is not the best source.

so i have a few questions for the school official:

from the pennsylvania issue that you all ran into, it seems as if the clinical rotation location map on your website just listed locations where you established agreements with preceptors.

1. DO YOU HAVE ANY DIRECT AFFILIATIONS SIGNED WITH HOSPITALS IN THE UNITED STATES?

2. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, ARE THEY ACGME GREENBOOK (if unaware, this means the hospital has a residency program in the specialty of rotation or the rotation is run by a LCME accredited medical school).

3. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, HOW MANY HOSPITALS?

4. IF YES TO QUESTION #1, WHERE ARE THOSE HOSPITALS LOCATED (NAME OF HOSPITAL AND ITS LOCATION).

these are 4 simple questions for a school offical to answer. these are 4 questions that a school official should not be afraid to answer publicly because these are vital aspects of the school for potential students researching the school. why should it be a secret? if the school wants to be successful, it should be open to giving out information and not secretive. this is how all the "established" schools (who you seem to want to emulate) do business, and they are fledging with applicants each cycle.

bump.........

[IMG SURVIVOR]

Scott1981, I cant find the answers to your questions, can you tell me where did they answer your questions, Im still looking for that post.

[rlewkowski]

I just noticed your post and forwarded it to Clinical Rotations Department. They will answer all your questions tommorow.

[Scott1981]

im assuming tommorow meaning monday (today) since your post was at 2 am. i couldnt imagine how the department would need to wait until tuesday to answer.

[cavalletti]

I just noticed your post and forwarded it to Clinical Rotations Department. They will answer all your questions tommorow.

Specifically, where are the Canadian clinical sites mentioned on the website?

[stephew]

im assuming tommorow meaning monday (today) since your post was at 2 am. i couldnt imagine how the department would need to wait until tuesday to answer.
scott be fair. if he's going to check let him check without dumping on him for maybe, not certainly, not checking fast enough. be fair in your approach to CMU just as we ask CMU to fair in their approach with regard to their information.

[DOCplucinski]

i understand they're new and doing a lot of contract negotiations with the hospitals but i'm confused why it is a secret as to what affiliations they do have.

hopefully when rl comes back and posts them, they will also post them on the main website. this is something a lot of potential students use to compare schools (affiliated hospitals near them). it doesn't mean much to say they have affiliates or preceptors in a certain state when it isn't listed as to where they are located.

[Scott1981]

scott be fair. if he's going to check let him check without dumping on him for maybe, not certainly, not checking fast enough. be fair in your approach to CMU just as we ask CMU to fair in their approach with regard to their information.

ok, ill give him the benefit of the doubt. hopefully we will get answers tommorow then.

[stephew]

cheers scott.

[Scott1981]

tuesday has come. just bumping this thread to the top for the clinical departments response.

[rlewkowski]

You'll get the response today.

[Scott1981]

You'll get the response today.

ok, thanks.

[MYMD]

i understand they're new and doing a lot of contract negotiations with the hospitals but i'm confused why it is a secret as to what affiliations they do have.

hopefully when rl comes back and posts them, they will also post them on the main website. this is something a lot of potential students use to compare schools (affiliated hospitals near them). it doesn't mean much to say they have affiliates or preceptors in a certain state when it isn't listed as to where they are located.

All I want to point out is this is a new school and in the past other schools have had the clinical rotation spots "taken from them" by two ways, one: other schools marketing and two: too many calling the Hospitals and telling the hospital they have contracted with a diploma mill, per what I understand from 3 years of reading about these schools.

ALso it will be at least a year before the 1st student rotates from this school unless someone transfers into clinicals.

Cheers.

[Scott1981]

All I want to point out is this is a new school and in the past other schools have had the clinical rotation spots "taken from them" by two ways, one: other schools marketing and two: too many calling the Hospitals and telling the hospital they have contracted with a diploma mill, per what I understand from 3 years of reading about these schools.

ALso it will be at least a year before the 1st student rotates from this school unless someone transfers into clinicals.

Cheers.

before you make an excuse for the school already, lets wait for the official response from the school.

AUA didnt hide their hospitals when they just started. they took some heat about claiming that they successfully had a particular hospital in cali, but that blew over. they seem to be doing quite alright.

im sorry, but st chris happens to run in my head when you talk about secret hospital locations. (even iau and st james have their hospitals listed).

lets just wait for the response from the clinical department.

[stephew]

american school of medicine actually takes the cake- and the heat off of cmu.

[DOCplucinski]

All I want to point out is this is a new school and in the past other schools have had the clinical rotation spots "taken from them" by two ways, one: other schools marketing and two: too many calling the Hospitals and telling the hospital they have contracted with a diploma mill, per what I understand from 3 years of reading about these schools.

ALso it will be at least a year before the 1st student rotates from this school unless someone transfers into clinicals.

Cheers.
like scott said, i'll wait to hear what has been said, but with the logic you're using, i don't understand boasting about having all of these preceptors and not letting it be known what they are.

if you're really worried about losing the contracts, then don't say that you have them to begin with, otherwise you're going to have people asking questions.

[MYMD]

before you make an excuse for the school already, lets wait for the official response from the school.

AUA didnt hide their hospitals when they just started. they took some heat about claiming that they successfully had a particular hospital in cali, but that blew over. they seem to be doing quite alright.

im sorry, but st chris happens to run in my head when you talk about secret hospital locations. (even iau and st james have their hospitals listed).

lets just wait for the response from the clinical department.

So AUA made a mistake and thats ok but another school makes a mistake and the students are enthusiastic and constant bickering with one of the admin is the proper way to act?

I think that they should be given a chance to respond.

I think to bring up SC is unfair, that school was not even in the country of charter, CMU is.

I think I or others reading and watching this school have valid things to comment on, there is not only a few people "special people" who have insight.

Who's to say that some would not call the Hospitals and cause trouble, there seems to be a few angry people posting on these forums and it only takes a few to ruin it for many CMU is not SGU and does not have deep pockets and Lawyers I suspect.:confused:

I hate these forums at times some people think they own them

[MYMD]

like scott said, i'll wait to hear what has been said, but with the logic you're using, i don't understand boasting about having all of these preceptors and not letting it be known what they are.

if you're really worried about losing the contracts, then don't say that you have them to begin with, otherwise you're going to have people asking questions.
Why are you talking to me? I go to SJSM? I was commenting on what I think?
I see you do? Is it your job to post here only as a Mod and tell me these things?

[DOCplucinski]

Why are you talking to me? I go to SJSM? I was commenting on what I think?
I see you do? Is it your job to post here only as a Mod and tell me these things?
what are you talking about, i know you don't go there. i just didn't understand the logic of your opinion, that's all. calm yourself

[MYMD]

what are you talking about, i know you don't go there. i just didn't understand the logic of your opinion, that's all. calm yourself

You post looked liked it was adressed to me personally since you used the words "you're" last time I checked thats possessive,

if you're really worried about losing the contracts, then don't say that you have them to begin with, otherwise you're going to have people asking questions.You needed to clarify the statement I think, since there are some students who are at SJSM and were at SJSM who have or will transfer to this school, I'm not one of them. The lines are a bit blurry with this school at this time and I want clarity with who is who.

Perhaps only the select few should post opinion here since the rest of us may get slammed HUH?

Further I think the biggest mistake CMU has done is start a forum here when they are not 100% organized yet, it seems they are 80 to 90% there at the moment, may be getting closer to 100% as we post but this school does not even have a loan as of today, they needed to get started so they could apply for programs I think, (Yes I think), Clinical spots, that was my feelings after reading all the nasty posts here by a few I think the school has taken some unnecessary heat here............................some valid but other posts are way out of line.

[DOCplucinski]

You post looked liked it was adressed to me personally since you used the words "you're" last time I checked thats possessive
in a different sense, "you're" can be used a pleural and not singular. the "you're" that i was using, i was speaking of CMU and not of yourself.

thanks for the English lesson

[MYMD]

in a different sense, "you're" can be used a pleural and not singular. the "you're" that i was using, i was speaking of CMU and not of yourself.

thanks for the English lesson
No problem I think I will just stop posting opinion anyway, I do not want to get into a pissing match with the mods nor the others including the admin from my own school.

Personally I'm ashamed of some of the behavior on the CMU forum from all sides.:roll:

It's sad cause the reason for VMD is to have free discussion but a few forum "Bullies" get on here and ruin it.

[Scott1981]

5:45 PM EST with no official school response. like i said earlier, lets wait for the final word.

[Sree Cheruku]

So AUA made a mistake and thats ok but another school makes a mistake and the students are enthusiastic and constant bickering with one of the admin is the proper way to act?

Think AUA got the point that everytime they try anything illegal or unethical, they're going have a serious publicity problem on ValueMD. I'm hoping that CMU does as well - the sooner the better.

[stephew]

many schools have learned this lesson; sometimes its actual questionable activity. other times its just been about communication and advocacy of the students

[Scott1981]

SCHOOLS WITH HOSPITAL AFFILIATIONS LISTED:

AUC- American University of the Caribbean (http://www.aucmed.edu/students/ushospitals.htm)
SGU- Affiliated Hospitals - School of Medicine - St. George’s University (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/som/affiliated-hospitals.html)
ROSS- ROSS UNIVERSITY: Hospital Affiliations (http://www.rossu.edu/med/academics/hospitalaffil_051.cfm)
SABA- SABA University - www.saba.edu - international medical university college (http://www.saba.edu/admissions_curriculum_ha.php)
SMU- http://www.stmatthews.edu/download/rotation-sites.pdf
AUA- Medical School Caribbean: Affiliated Hospitals - American University of Antigua College of Medicine (http://www.auamed.org/med/Academic_Info/Affiliated_Hospitals/Affiliated_Hospitals.htm)
SJSM- SJSM Hospitals (http://www.sjsm.org/hospitals.php)
USE- The University of Sint Eustatius School of Medicine (http://www.eustatiusmed.edu/clinical-medicine-rotations.html)
IAU- IAUCOM ~ Clinicals (http://www.iau.edu.lc/clinicals.html)


GMC GROUP
St THERESAS- Welcome to SAINT THERESA'S MEDICALl UNIVERSITY (http://www.stmu.org/aboutus.html)


NO HOSPITALS AFFILIATIONS LISTED
MUA NEVIS
MUA BELIZE
XAVIER
ALL SAINTS
SPARTAN
IUHS
ST MARTINUS
WINDSOR
CMU

this list was made from a quick search on the web, if it needs updating... PM me the link to the respective schools hospital list and ill update it.

[rlewkowski]

That’s the list I got from our Clinical Rotation Department:
We currently have agreements with preceptors from the following hospitals:
Crawford Long Hospital
St. Joseph's Hospital
Satilla Regional Medical Center
Southwest Community Hospital and Medical Center
Northridge Hospital
Emory Dunwoody Medical Center
DeKalb Medical Center
Rockdale Cardiology
Emory John's Creek Hospital
South Fulton Medical Center
Atlanta Medical Center
Mt. Sinai Hospital
Oak Park Hospital
Children's Memorial Hospital
Prentice Women's Hospital
JPH (Kimberly Douglas)
Town and Country Pediatrics
Swedish Covenant Hospital
Rush University Medical Center
Cook County Hospital
Michael Reese Hospital
St. Anthony Hospital
Chicago Lakeshore Hospital
Evanston Hospital
Rush-Copley
Holy Cross Hospital
Jackson Park Hospital

Our student will start their rotations in September. All transfer students are required to have passed the Step 1 of USMLE. That’s the rule and no exemptions.

[emt036]

That’s the list I got from our Clinical Rotation Department:
We currently have agreements with preceptors from the following hospitals:

So that means that there is no affiliation with the hospital itself, nor any green-book ACGME-approved residency programs, just with individual physicians?

[DRDRWMD]

I am happy to see a hospital list presented.

[MDXRS22]

That's a good sign!

[stephew]

this list raises some questions. for instance:
are we talking Mt sinai In manhattan (ie not an affilliate like Elmhurst)? if so I HIGHLY doubt that you have a formal affilition with them. Im beginning to think this "preceptor" thing is what the issue is. Having "preceptors" is NOT the equivilent to having a formal affiliation. then ther eis the issue of ACGME programs and we havnt even addressed that.

could you clarify this?



That’s the list I got from our Clinical Rotation Department:
We currently have agreements with preceptors from the following hospitals:
Crawford Long Hospital
St. Joseph's Hospital
Satilla Regional Medical Center
Southwest Community Hospital and Medical Center
Northridge Hospital
Emory Dunwoody Medical Center
DeKalb Medical Center
Rockdale Cardiology
Emory John's Creek Hospital
South Fulton Medical Center
Atlanta Medical Center
Mt. Sinai Hospital
Oak Park Hospital
Children's Memorial Hospital
Prentice Women's Hospital
JPH (Kimberly Douglas)
Town and Country Pediatrics
Swedish Covenant Hospital
Rush University Medical Center
Cook County Hospital
Michael Reese Hospital
St. Anthony Hospital
Chicago Lakeshore Hospital
Evanston Hospital
Rush-Copley
Holy Cross Hospital
Jackson Park Hospital

Our student will start their rotations in September. All transfer students are required to have passed the Step 1 of USMLE. That’s the rule and no exemptions.

[rlewkowski]

1. None of the elective rotations have to be in green-book hospitals
2. Some states don’t even require core rotations to be in the teaching hospitals.
3. Most of the hospitals I have listed are teaching hospitals.

We don’t want to get more affiliations since they won’t be waiting forever for our students. First we have to fill up those slots and then apply for others, therefore by the time our own students /not transfers/ will be ready to start rotations the list will be at least doubled.

[stephew]

this is a KEY point. can you clarify?
So that means that there is no affiliation with the hospital itself, nor any green-book ACGME-approved residency programs, just with individual physicians?

[Scott1981]

That’s the list I got from our Clinical Rotation Department:
We currently have agreements with preceptors from the following hospitals:
Crawford Long Hospital
St. Joseph's Hospital
Satilla Regional Medical Center
Southwest Community Hospital and Medical Center
Northridge Hospital
Emory Dunwoody Medical Center
DeKalb Medical Center
Rockdale Cardiology
Emory John's Creek Hospital
South Fulton Medical Center
Atlanta Medical Center
Mt. Sinai Hospital
Oak Park Hospital
Children's Memorial Hospital
Prentice Women's Hospital
JPH (Kimberly Douglas)
Town and Country Pediatrics
Swedish Covenant Hospital
Rush University Medical Center
Cook County Hospital
Michael Reese Hospital
St. Anthony Hospital
Chicago Lakeshore Hospital
Evanston Hospital
Rush-Copley
Holy Cross Hospital
Jackson Park Hospital

Our student will start their rotations in September. All transfer students are required to have passed the Step 1 of USMLE. That’s the rule and no exemptions.

so you have
1. NO ACGME GREENBOOK ROTATIONS.
2. NO HOSPITAL AFFILLIATIONS

your students will not get much hands on training without hospital affiliations........... in essence, the hospitals dont know that they are there. that is a major legal/insurance problem for the hospital....... if they even touch a patient in the hospital, lawyers may start calling.

plus, this is going to lead to licensure problems down the road for the students on top of the WHO problem they already are going to encounter.

[AUCMD2006]

That's a good sign!


no actually it isn't. the wording on his response is that they have agreements with preceptors from the hospitals and not the hospitals themselves. if this is the case, and rotatiosn are being done through private physicians and not the actual hospital then the rotations are worthless because they will not count.

if the rotations are with the hospitals is what needs to be clarified and made crustal clear so that the students don't end up in trouble but they are being careful to make sure they use the word preceptor before any mention of clinicals.

so again are the hospitals listed above contracted directly by the school or do you just have contracts with doctors that work for the hospital and the students will just follow them around?

[stephew]

1) to get a license in some states, yes they do.
2) more importantly many do. it should be considered a deficit if not all ACGME approved cores without question.
3) its not just the hospital; the rotations that people do should be greenbook ok's. So if the "preceptor" is jut a doc who will let you hang out with him to rotation, this isn't sufficient for many state licenses.

and my own 4) some states wont give you a license if you rotate in any hosptial that doesnt have a formal affiliation with teh school. for instance PA wont give you credit for an elective even if its harvard if harvard isnt affiliated with the school (and it isnt even for american medical school or whatever that interesting one is called).

these are very serious points that need to be clarified for prospective students. the list provided is insufficient to allow students to make an informed decision. can your clinical dept provide more answers to teh above points?1. None of the elective rotations have to be in green-book hospitals
2. Some states don’t even require core rotations to be in the teaching hospitals.
3. Most of the hospitals I have listed are teaching hospitals.

We don’t want to get more affiliations since they won’t be waiting forever for our students. First we have to fill up those slots and then apply for others, therefore by the time our own students /not transfers/ will be ready to start rotations the list will be at least doubled.

[stephew]

premeds and potential transfers need to understand what this list is and more importantly what it isnt.

[mozman]

Didn't Windsor do something similiar with physicians in Virginia? I don't know how they set up rotations now, but I believe 3 yrs ago it was on their website. Basically, doing cores through the md/private practice? For the most part, that doesn't count for anything when it comes to licensing, at least I know it doesn't in Texas.

[stephew]

it doesnt in most states.

[rokshana]

a big list isn't nearly as important as even just one, ONE, ACGME recognized program that will take students for clinical cores. Yes, you can have non-ACGME ELECTIVES and still be licensed in a few states, but most states want ACGME cores- without them, there are potential many,many states your students will not be eligible for licensure...the students may not be looking that far in advance, but school officials MUST!!!

the mt sinai btw can't be in NY- they don't have NY approval, same for the St. Joesph's can't be in NJ- no approval. as far as the Ill. hospitals, don't know the policies- Ross students probably have a better idea, but seriously doubt the University programs are affliated, just someone who has priviliedges there.

[MYMD]

.........
the mt sinai btw can't be in NY- they don't have NY approval, .........

I thought you did not need approval for a 12 wk rotation? Right?

[stephew]

wrong.
a school has to be ok'd in a given state.

[MYMD]

wrong.
a school has to be ok'd in a given state.
Thats not true only Cali, Fl, TX and NY give such approvals

Many states do not approve nor disapprove schools.

I'm about 90% sure about the 12wk rule in NY without approval it has come up many times before

BTW I really do not care that much, NY approval should be sought by this school anyway, until then the students should just do the rotations elsewhere.

[Scott1981]

quite frankly, it probably wouldnt even matter if we saw some cali hospitals on the list.

the reason?
the way the school is set up, it seems like the hospitals wont even know the students are there..... so neither will the state.

these core rotations with preceptors without direct hospital contract are basically useless. it wont even count as 3rd year medical education in most if not all states.

the cores offered by CMU are not greenbook (obviously), but they arent even bluebook because they are not completed with the hospitals supervision.

they dont represent rotations at all.

[cavalletti]

That’s the list I got from our Clinical Rotation Department:
We currently have agreements with preceptors from the following hospitals:
Crawford Long Hospital
St. Joseph's Hospital
Satilla Regional Medical Center
Southwest Community Hospital and Medical Center
Northridge Hospital
Emory Dunwoody Medical Center
DeKalb Medical Center
Rockdale Cardiology
Emory John's Creek Hospital
South Fulton Medical Center
Atlanta Medical Center
Mt. Sinai Hospital
Oak Park Hospital
Children's Memorial Hospital
Prentice Women's Hospital
JPH (Kimberly Douglas)
Town and Country Pediatrics
Swedish Covenant Hospital
Rush University Medical Center
Cook County Hospital
Michael Reese Hospital
St. Anthony Hospital
Chicago Lakeshore Hospital
Evanston Hospital
Rush-Copley
Holy Cross Hospital
Jackson Park Hospital

Our student will start their rotations in September. All transfer students are required to have passed the Step 1 of USMLE. That’s the rule and no exemptions.

I don't see the Canadian hospital affiliation that the website boasts.

[DOCplucinski]

quite frankly, it probably wouldnt even matter if we saw some cali hospitals on the list.

the reason?
the way the school is set up, it seems like the hospitals wont even know the students are there..... so neither will the state.

these core rotations with preceptors without direct hospital contract are basically useless. it wont even count as 3rd year medical education in most if not all states.

the cores offered by CMU are not greenbook (obviously), but they arent even bluebook because they are not completed with the hospitals supervision.

they dont represent rotations at all.
just to be fair, i think for right now RL is playing as the messenger. hopefully we'll hear and official response as to what exactly this list includes. they also have at least a year (since there are a few med 3's) to make this list legit.

[stephew]

if a state doest disapprove a school, its approve. thats nitpicking. the bottom line is a state may not approve a school.

NY has to give approval for any school. then if you have it you can do up to 12 weeks of outside electives and still get licensened i believe. that's my understand of it.Thats not true only Cali, Fl, TX and NY give such approvals

Many states do not approve nor disapprove schools.

I'm about 90% sure about the 12wk rule in NY without approval it has come up many times before

BTW I really do not care that much, NY approval should be sought by this school anyway, until then the students should just do the rotations elsewhere.

[stephew]

just to be fair, i think for right now RL is playing as the messenger. hopefully we'll hear and official response as to what exactly this list includes. they also have at least a year (since there are a few med 3's) to make this list legit.

agreed- RL is the messenger and doesnt knnow the details. perhaps a school offical who is a clinical rotation/licensing specialist can help out from cmu?

[Scott1981]

just to be fair, i think for right now RL is playing as the messenger. hopefully we'll hear and official response as to what exactly this list includes. they also have at least a year (since there are a few med 3's) to make this list legit.

when will that "official" response happen? i thought we were supposed to get that today?

[rokshana]

1. None of the elective rotations have to be in green-book hospitals
2. Some states don’t even require core rotations to be in the teaching hospitals.
3. Most of the hospitals I have listed are teaching hospitals.

We don’t want to get more affiliations since they won’t be waiting forever for our students. First we have to fill up those slots and then apply for others, therefore by the time our own students /not transfers/ will be ready to start rotations the list will be at least doubled.


you say on your OWN website, that all cores MUST be done at ACGME sites

CMU | Caribbean Medical University - Affiliated Hospitals (http://www.cmumed.org/academics/hospitals.htm)

so which is it??

[Scott1981]

you say on your OWN website, that all cores MUST be done at ACGME sites

CMU | Caribbean Medical University - Affiliated Hospitals (http://www.cmumed.org/academics/hospitals.htm)

so which is it??

the written affiliation question is a simple question. i sure hope he can give us an answer tommorrow. i dont see the need for the 48 hour delay in getting a response like it took to get a list of hospitals that the preceptors have privelages at.

[stephew]

to be fair is because RL is playing middleman.

[dt]

to be fair is because RL is playing middleman.

He's more than the middleman. He's the boss. He's the Chairman of Caribbean Medical University Foundation.

See: http://www.curacao-chamber.an/c-reg/content/Excerpt.asp?mode=edit&companyid=6985&establishmentnr=-1&legalformid=81

[Scott1981]

to be fair is because RL is playing middleman.

he represents the school and actively recruits transfers and newbies. he should know this stuff.

however, like dt said above, he is more than the middleman...... he is cmu.

[DOCplucinski]

when will that "official" response happen? i thought we were supposed to get that today?
hah, maybe tomorrow?

[stephew]

point taken. he should be more informed about these general issues though I could let the specifics pass if there were some places that were acgme and some weren't . but it is a concern if such an offical isntaware of the ACMGE issues as outlined above.

[aehssani]

when we went to the school for the site visit, I had the opportunity to discuss the clinical sites and rotations with Dr.P-------, and Dr. D---. What the two Drs conveyed to me was that until they officialy have students to enter into a clinical rotation, there is no sence in signing an afilliation. It seems to the school officials that if they sign an affiliation, then don't fill the spots that are granted to them, then the hospital may cancel the contract and give the spots to other schools rather than leaving them empty. You decide what this means to you.
I see both sides of the drama here.

[stephew]

this may be the reason (if its true I cant say) but that doesnt make it acceptable for students who have other choices. Its a situation other schools have navagated successfully so presumably CMU can figure out how to get legitimally Acgme accredited rotations. again the issue here is less the legitimacy of not having ACGME approved affiliates than it is why a student should opt for a school in that situation if they have other far more secure choices?

[rokshana]

when we went to the school for the site visit, I had the opportunity to discuss the clinical sites and rotations with Dr.P-------, and Dr. D---. What the two Drs conveyed to me was that until they officialy have students to enter into a clinical rotation, there is no sence in signing an afilliation. It seems to the school officials that if they sign an affiliation, then don't fill the spots that are granted to them, then the hospital may cancel the contract and give the spots to other schools rather than leaving them empty. You decide what this means to you.
I see both sides of the drama here.


and you know, that is a perfectly reasonable and logical answer...yet it was not the one given here. Here the number of spots at teaching hopsitals has been touted up one side and down the other, then it takes forever to be disclosed and even then a carefully worded statement about preceptors at these hospitals- NOT that agreements have been signed with ACGME programs.

Sept is when they say that clinical rotations will start for their students- Affliate agreements can take years to accomplish- they need to have thought about it and set up the parameter of how many students will be in which programs long before the students actually show up. The hospitals where these students in Sept will go to should already be known.

[ULTRON]

I'm a potential tranfer student and when I chatted with a school official this past Sunday, he seemed so confident about providing me with green core rotations in Illinois. I feel that they have set up preceptors a local hospitals, but are hesitant to reveal their exact addresses yet. Why? I’m not sure. Maybe they’re afraid that some entity may “steal” their clinical spots.

ULTRON

and you know, that is a perfectly reasonable and logical answer...yet it was not the one given here. Here the number of spots at teaching hopsitals has been touted up one side and down the other, then it takes forever to be disclosed and even then a carefully worded statement about preceptors at these hospitals- NOT that agreements have been signed with ACGME programs.

Sept is when they say that clinical rotations will start for their students- Affliate agreements can take years to accomplish- they need to have thought about it and set up the parameter of how many students will be in which programs long before the students actually show up. The hospitals where these students in Sept will go to should already be known.

[slevit1]

I'm a potential tranfer student and when I chatted with a school official this past Sunday, he seemed so confident about providing me with green core rotations in Illinois. I feel that they have set up preceptors a local hospitals, but are hesitant to reveal their exact addresses yet. Why? I’m not sure. Maybe they’re afraid that some entity may “steal” their clinical spots.

ULTRON

More likely because they don't have any green book clinical affiliations set up at all. There is a big difference between preceptors and actual green book core rotations. With preceptors, you'd just follow the doctor around, unknown to the hospital. You'd have little legal ability to do anything clinical and it would not count for almost any state (if any at all). Basically, you'd wind up with a degree that means nothing at all in the US. If you are transfering, it's a good thing that they require the USMLE prior to starting there, because their students can't take it. This may change in time, but CMU has not shown a single instance of anything to the contrary.

[rokshana]

I'm a potential tranfer student and when I chatted with a school official this past Sunday, he seemed so confident about providing me with green core rotations in Illinois. I feel that they have set up preceptors a local hospitals, but are hesitant to reveal their exact addresses yet. Why? I’m not sure. Maybe they’re afraid that some entity may “steal” their clinical spots.

ULTRON

realize that setting up preceptors and setting up an affliation with a hospital are NOT the same thing. the first is NOT "greenbook" never will be, they aren't even bluebook.

affliations with a hospital too can be bluebook - better but still, you will have limitations placed on you as to licensure in some states

if you are thinking of transfering - please don't do so on just a promise of greenbook cores- KNOW that they are in place- double check with the ACGME website and the hospital.

good luck

[stephew]

exactly. get confirmation. this is the rest of your life. do for youself the due diligence you'd hopefully do for your patients.

[MYMD]

Understand that the school must have a contract with the core hospital not just the preceptors for them to count for green book, I have read this here many times and it is true. Has CMU done this? I do not know myself. But assuming they have or have not is wrong, I think we should know the answer not guess..........................

[stephew]

i think this has point has been made ad naseum and we're just waiting to hear an offical CMU responce.

[ULTRON]

Yep, now it makes more sense. If they really have legal contracts with teaching hospitals, they would proudly display that on their website. Only the CMU official can clarify this now....

[Scott1981]

i think this has point has been made ad naseum and we're just waiting to hear an offical CMU responce.

its really hard to stay objective with these circumstances.

48 hours for the first response. we find out that they basically have no hospital affiliation and their students will not be allowed any direct participation in the hospitals.

now, some try to continue to stay objective..... so they wait for clarification from the school..... because the original answer we got was unbelievably damning to the school.... it couldnt be correct.... could it :shock:?

but still no "clarification." simple clarification was needed. no list needed to be compiled, nothing.

maybe its time to expect the horse and not the zebra when we all open our eyes.

[malloy]

I offered their students a clinical rotation site in a state they are not present but legally can have their students rotate. The school official responded that they are not interested in any more spots as they want to utilize the rotations they have setup, as they donot have enough students yet and they run the risk of losing their contracts if they donot provide a certain number of students.
who knows what that means.

[rokshana]

I offered their students a clinical rotation site in a state they are not present but legally can have their students rotate. The school official responded that they are not interested in any more spots as they want to utilize the rotations they have setup, as they donot have enough students yet and they run the risk of losing their contracts if they donot provide a certain number of students.
who knows what that means.

so- malloy- was this an affliation with a hospital that has an ACGME residency?? or just the chance to follow an MD with priviledges??

thanks for the info!

[rlewkowski]

For all core rotations we have to have a contract with the hospitals since no preceptor will accept students without it and no rotations will be counted if we don’t have the contract.
I confirm that few agencies contacted us in order to provide more rotation slots for our students, but as malloy said we don’t want to have more now since we have to fill up the slots we currently have otherwise we may lose them.

[Scott1981]

so do you have a contract with all of those hopsitals that you listed?

[rlewkowski]

so do you have a contract with all of those hopsitals that you listed?

For all core rotations we have to have a contract with the hospitals since no preceptor will accept students without it and no rotations will be counted if we don’t have the contract. Some of the hospital I have listed are not greenbook, therefore no core will be done there, just elective

[Scott1981]

For all core rotations we have to have a contract with the hospitals since no preceptor will accept students without it and no rotations will be counted if we don’t have the contract. Some of the hospital I have listed are not greenbook, therefore no core will be done there, just elective

ok, any chance of separating out the hospitals that you have the contract with that are greenbook. mainly, separating out the hospitals that are for 3rd year cores.

the reason i say this is because this is what most newbies and transfers will want to know because these are the hospitals/locations that they will have to do their 3rd year in. electives dont matter that much because you can really go to any hospital and freelance.

[malloy]

so- malloy- was this an affliation with a hospital that has an ACGME residency?? or just the chance to follow an MD with priviledges??

thanks for the info!

approved by the hospital GMEC, hosp. is affiliated with the school and has ACGME approved residency in the dept i work in....im junior faculty....they would follow whoever is running the teaching service..

[rokshana]

approved by the hospital GMEC, hosp. is affiliated with the school and has ACGME approved residency in the dept i work in....im junior faculty....they would follow whoever is running the teaching service..


thank you! I greatly appreciate the straightforward and concise answer you gave!!!

[AUCMD2006]

For all core rotations we have to have a contract with the hospitals since no preceptor will accept students without it and no rotations will be counted if we don’t have the contract. Some of the hospital I have listed are not greenbook, therefore no core will be done there, just elective


thanks. finally the matter can be put to rest and the students rotating there are ok. now all the school needs is the imed listing and they can take the boards. good luck

[emt036]

thanks. finally the matter can be put to rest and the students rotating there are ok. now all the school needs is the imed listing and they can take the boards. good luck
Well, some independent verification would be nice, but hey, you can't have everything can you?

[slevit1]

thanks. finally the matter can be put to rest and the students rotating there are ok. now all the school needs is the imed listing and they can take the boards. good luck

I would hardly say this puts anything to rest. They are still just following a doctor around. Just because the hospital is aware of their presence does not mean that they're actually part of a green book rotation. And it's not like RL has never given out misleading information before.

[stephew]

For all core rotations we have to have a contract with the hospitals since no preceptor will accept students without it and no rotations will be counted if we don’t have the contract. Some of the hospital I have listed are not greenbook, therefore no core will be done there, just elective
Thank you for the reply but i was wondering if you could be more specific. Are all core rotations in ACGME approved programs within that field? That is the IM core is at a place with an ACGME approved IM program? "contract" with the hospital and "preceptor" are too vague to clarify these KEY points and it makes all the difference in the world. If youre unsure perhaps a specialist in the clinical realm could elucidate. Thank you.