Salaries

[PotentialPremed]

I heard that ND's can make as much as MD's. Is this true? Also, are Naturopathic Medicine programs easier to get into than traditional med school?

[dt]

I heard that ND's can make as much as MD's. Is this true? Also, are Naturopathic Medicine programs easier to get into than traditional med school?


For a salary survey, take a look at: http://www.ncnm.edu/alumniandfriends/2004AlumniSurvey.pdf

and yes, naturopathic medicine programs are easier to get in than MD. Go here for a list of schools: Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (http://www.cnme.org/links.html)

Also, a new school opened up at: National University of Health Sciences: Interior Template (http://www.nuhs.edu/show.asp?durki=49) This school is not yet accredited by CNME, but supposedly will be.

Note that ND schools in Canada can only give out "private diploma" -- this means that the 4 years you spend at the 2 canadian schools will not be recognized as accredited worldwide.

[eastern2western]

It is possible for some nds to make more money than some MDS. However, MDS generally have a much more job opportunities than NDs and they get pay more by the insurance companies For example, a MD can work hospitals as a resident after medical school and that starting salary is usually around 40k. After they gain their independent license to practice, then they can either open their own practice or work for many different places such as hospitals, prisons, military and insurance companies. The starting salary for those kind of jobs are usually around figures. For NDs, it is possible to take a decade for them to build up enough clientele to achieve that level of income.
Another thing is MDs' income level is completely dependent on their specialties. Some one who is a cardiac surgeon can bill insurance companies hundreds of dollars just for a 10 minute check up with a patient. While on the other hand, most NDs can only open up their private pratice as their only source of employment after graduation. Opening up a practice is easy for people who have the necessary start up money, but it is really hard for new graduates who spent most of their money and energy on school and who only have debts in their bank account. MDs get a much better chance of repaying their loans because different state governments have programs that are design to recruite mds to practice in rural areas in exchange for loan repayments.
Another thing is that it is easier to get into ND schools than MD schools in the states, but what it also means there will be more competitions for NDs once they graduate because of the limited job opportunities and too many graduates. This problem is what the chiropractic profession is currently experience right now because of their low acceptance standards (2.0 gpa and no mcat) and lack of employment options(private pratice or unemployment).
If u are going to choose a health care profession, I would best recommend to either be a MD or at least be a nurse because those careers are very secure are have high starting salaries.

[multigrain23]

Last year I applied and was accepted to an ND program-- they told me I was one of their best applicants, in fact. However, before starting the program, I did a broad online search of classifieds searching for NDs. I even talked to the school's job placement counselor. She gave me links to additional classifieds specifically for the school's alumni. Looking through the listing, I was horrified by the opportunities. I remember some job listings offered to pay $150 per DAY to the ND... I was like "you got to be kidding!". It was really bad. I realize that opportunities are growing, but they just aren't that available at present-- not decent paying jobs at least. I have always been the idealistic type who believes you should follow your heart and not worry so much about money. However, being somewhat realistic is still important. Being $100-150,000 in debt and making $150/day (comes out to about $36k a year assuming you work the standard 48 weeks/year)... well that's just not feasible. I realize that some people can make much more with their own practice, but a lot of people REALLY struggle. In fact, several currently practicing NDs told me that if they had to do it over they would have gone to MD school instead (although at the time when they were in school, they were totally committed to naturopathic medicine).

So I decided not to accept my admissions, and plan on going the Caribbean MD route... I hope to start school this year. I am still TOTALLY interested in naturopathic medicine, but may do some kind of integrative medicine fellowship later after I finish med school. Or if naturopathic schools are more accepted by the general community as being scientifically-based, then I may go to ND school later. (I talked to one ND professor who actually told me that NDs must use the placebo effect to their advantage-- I'm NOT kidding about this, he actually said that.) So even though I am so sincerely interested in holistic medicine, botanicals, and specialized nutrition-- I will not enter the ND field at this time.

It is really interesting stuff, and I totally wish it were more recognized and more scientifically sound-- as it is such a great field. But I have to be able to pay my bills. And I want to help my patients only in scientifically-sound principles, and not use the placebo effect. I still believe in naturopathic medicine enough that I see an ND myself for chronic issues (going to an MD/DO only in a more acute situation)... as I am proactive about my own health-- but I think for helping the general population, it would be good for me to get an MD training.

[spreebee]

I heard that ND's can make as much as MD's. Is this true? Also, are Naturopathic Medicine programs easier to get into than traditional med school?

Don't waste your time getting an ND... As a med student I can say an M.D. will be more rewarding...There is a program near my undergrad that will award a certified ND after only 3 semesters... The cirriculum is horrible... No anatomy or lthe likes, and you take classes like introduction to herbs. In terms as salaries, you've got to be kidding me... They don't really work in hospitals, and 1 out of 1000 people probably actually go to see one for medical reasons so the salaries are like teachers wages. NDs in the U.S. right now serve more as nutritionists than anything... The degree in China is alot different than the U.S. version...Nevertheless, I knew a guy that had both a ND from China and a U.S. M.D. He said the ND cirriculum is a joke compared to working towards an M.D. He mentioned how the ND cirriculum was more or less comparable to Biology 101 in undergrad in terms of ease...One more thing... You can do what ND's do with your M.D. You are allowed to use herbal treatments as an M.D. and the likes... A doctor back home treats cancer (M.D.) using a mixture of herbs and clinical medicines, as well as oxygen therapy.... You certainly dont have all these powers as an ND...Plus, you learn about some herbs in pharm..

[superapple]

I am 22 y.o. and currently in the application process for several accredited ND schools. (I have been invited to one interview so far.) I am fully committed to, and absolutely believe in, the philosophy of naturopathic medicine. After being a patient of an ND myself for over 2 years, I can't imagine a better way to maintain and improve one's health. In addition to being a L.Ac, my ND also sells vitamins and herbal supplements to her patients. For follow-up visits, she charges $85 for 45 min of acupuncture only, $100 for 45 min of naturopathic care only, and $150/hr for acupuncture & naturopathic care together. However, due to the duration of each appointment, there is only so many patients she can see per day. And I don't even know how much she must be paying for rent in southern California (although she does share the practice with a couple of other associates, who are all either NDs or L.Acs.) In terms of insurance, I know my insurance will not cover naturopathic care (it does cover acupuncture, but there is a specific list of acupuncturists that I'd have to see, and my ND isn't one of them). I assume that most of my doctor's patients pay in cash. Pro - she doesn't have to deal with insurance. Con - there is only so much ND care that the patient can afford. Even I've had to space out my appointments further and further apart.

I don't know for certain if I will be accepted into any of the ND schools I applied to, but if things turn out well, I'll be left with a hard decision. Naturopathic care is something I fully believe in - I just "clicked" with it. I don't have a desire to go to pharmacy school or optometry school - all suggestions put forth by my dad. I know he means well, but like some of you, he doesn't see how I can be financially stable as an ND/L.Ac. He probably feels that after "investing" myself in a professional health school for however many years, I should be doing decently, financially-speaking. And, deep down, I guess a small part of me agrees with that. I know I'll most likely be left with $150,000+ in student loans, and that's something I think about constantly. My heart is definitely in naturopathic care, but in terms of my future financial stability, I am still torn about my desire to follow my passion.

[Caboose]

So, I just have to say that it is what you make it. I'm in medical school at the moment, (and I refer to ND as the same as MD because I am going through most of the same classes and at the same pace), and one thing they do not teach you is how to run a business. What happens when you get 3 friends who graduate together and run out to get a business up to go help people? Di-sa-ster. Most people who start businesses don't know what they are doing. Its no different for NDs. Maybe they stay afloat though - it's not like the world doesn't need doctors, right? So, you get someone working "oh, around 37hours a week, but sometimes I don't stay the whole day Friday..." and has such an enormous need to give that he/she has a sliding wage that works like the end a popsicle on a hot summers day.

At a recent business seminar I heard a story about this poor guy who was horrid at keeping his books. Attempting to mop up the mess was this auditor who said that he watched some lady with an enormous balance on her account pay $100 for the visit or whatever, but then left with $800 worth of supplements. The ND with the obviously hypertrophied heart had to eat over 10 grand for that patient. Extreme case, but it happens.

If I had limitless time and money on the earth I would have done my MD first and then my ND. This is because ND schools will take a lot of the credits from allopathic schools and it's not a two way deal. My motivation would be for insurance purposes.

So, anyway, NDs just have to watch it because they're not mainstream and they're mostly private practice. Life - and salary - is what you make it. When surveying less than 200 people, it's hard to say what you would make as an ND. It's wide open.

Caboose.

[Caylie]

I've heard salaries are often around 30k/yr, with some really saavy ones getting into the 100k/yr. I heard many make money as reps for supplement companies.

multigrain23- I can totally relate to your post. Thanks for sharing what you found on the job boards. I am struggling between doing an ND or MD. I'm also most interested in chronic-type cases and prevention, less interested in treating acute problems like bronchitis or something that needs surgery. Why Caribbean schools, are your grades/MCAT not quite US standards, even for a DO?

[dt]

Okay, the salary survey moved. The current link is here:

http://www.ncnm.edu/images/2004AlumniSurvey.pdf

[jackets5]

You will be very stupid and sorry if you decide to go to a naturopathic school. Go get a MD or a DO and actually be a real doctor and help people. All you will get is alot of debt and a bunch of useless knowledge. Really, i cant believe people are so dumb to believe in this crap

[ssky007]

I am a practicing ND. I have been in private practice for 2 years. I completed an accredited residency from a CNME approved program.

IF I had it to do all over again, I would have gone to conventional MD. The main reason is that the potential for salaried income is pretty much non-existant. The secondary reason is that due to limited licensure (ND's are only licensed in 14 states & DC) we are unable to move to our desired state (CO). Finally, ND's are becoming more and more recognized but without insurance coverage or a general huge turnaround in the economy, people will have a hard time affording ND care and thus supporting a ND business.

Now in defense of the ND career path. The education is actually decent. I work with MD's, PA's, and NP's. I feel confident when it comes to identifying possible disease processes, diagnostic testing and treatment plans both conventional and alternative. I find it very rewarding when I am able to identify early treatment and preventable disease processes (DM, HTN, wt gain, etc) then provide the patient with a treatment plan that will help. Alsi I can provide the patient with a little more hope than "let's start this medication that you will be on for the rest of your life and oh yeah, in 2-3 years when that one is not enough we will have to add another medication, and another medication, and another, repeat, until you come in hopefully in your sixties and you will be on between 5 to 9 med's.

the final say I have is this. Go get a conventional MD at an integrative type school, U of Arizona, Yale, etc. Pursue an integrative fellowship. Get a great salaried position at one of the more progressive hospitals, Mayo or Cleveland Clinic in their preventative medicine wing, help people in much the same way an ND would but get paid for it so you can support your family and actually have some hope for retirement.

[jonemp]

your post is grossly ignorant. have you even tried any natural methods?

[firstdonoharm]

There is a wonderful medical doctor in Europe (France) that owns and operates 4 homeopathic schools exclusively for medical doctors. Every year at the beginning of each term he asks all students one question. If any student can list one disease that modern medicine can cure 100%, then they will receive free tuition. That question was first asked almost 16 years ago and not once has a student (medical doctor) been able to answer it.

Naturopathic medicine has the ability to work with the body and its inherent ability to heal. I am not here to debate md vs nd. The vast differences in both paradigms would take much time to discuss. What I would rather offer up is that there is a place for both. There are times when someone may need medical intervention for acute, life-threatening issues, whereas there are times when prolonged medication does absolutely nothing positive for the body except create obstacles to healing. These conditions are likely best treated via natural methods.

One interesting concept is that of our own natural protection from disease and infection. We have barriers (skin, mucus membranes) to prevent microbes from entering our tissues, we will create an amazing fever to burn up offending microbes and we may ultimately rid our body of such microbes and other toxins via vomiting and/or diarrhea. Naturopaths support these basic body functions to help the body heal. Conventional medicine on the other hand tries to replace such natural healing methods via medications and in the process weaken the body. This unfortunately is one of the major causes of disease. Our bodies are programmed to heal. They always strive to do so. The more you suppress the body and block these basic body functions in time of attack, the further you place obstacles in the path to complete healing. If medical doctors and naturopaths were encouraged to work together (place all egos aside) and actually focus on the patient, then I believe this would be perfect medicine and lead to cure. Otherwise I see the future of medicine as incomplete.

For many doctors there often seems to be some financial motive involved in their career choice. We should not be defined by our financial acquisitions as health professionals but rather by the success we achieve when we help individuals achieve optimal health goals. After all, in China, medical doctors are only paid as long as the patient remains healthy. Food for thought....

[axiomofchoice]

I am sure the average person who sees a ND is quite a bit healthier than the one who ends up with the MD. So the ND perspective arguing for compensation based on patient outcomes is not really a valid argument for comparing the two fields. I doubt that people who smoked and drank all of their life go to see NDs very often. The reality is that people do live their lives this way and MDs treat their symptoms, these people will remain sick. Obviously the ND will have healthier patients, and will likely boast this fact to increase or validate their own compensation.
Like was said, there's a reason for both of these professions... related... but quite different.

Bottom line is, the MD will let you practice anything you want, should you choose to educate yourself in that area. Quite the opposite for the ND.

I also like the 'go get an MD at Yale and a residency at Mayo', if you want to practice integrative medicine. :rolleyes:

[mario345]

There is a wonderful medical doctor in Europe (France) that owns and operates 4 homeopathic schools exclusively for medical doctors. Every year at the beginning of each term he asks all students one question. If any student can list one disease that modern medicine can cure 100%, then they will receive free tuition. That question was first asked almost 16 years ago and not once has a student (medical doctor) been able to answer it.


peptic ulcer disease secondary to H. Pylori.
Tuberculosis.
Infectious disease.

there are many other 'cures' that modern medicine has developed.

those doctors must be either really dumb (which i doubt) or this is just an attempt to equate a REAL doctor with those who are not.

[Mourning Cloak]

If any student can list one disease that modern medicine can cure 100%, then they will receive free tuition. That question was first asked almost 16 years ago and not once has a student (medical doctor) been able to answer it.

(Infantile hypertrophic) pyloric stenosis
Appendicitis

A chance to cut is a chance to cure.

And how is it that these brilliant French med students never mentioned chlamydia or gonorrhea?

And ever heard of smallpox? Modern medicine erases a plague from the face of the earth . . . that's gotta count.

[teratos]

I am sure the average person who sees a ND is quite a bit healthier than the one who ends up with the MD. So the ND perspective arguing for compensation based on patient outcomes is not really a valid argument for comparing the two fields. I doubt that people who smoked and drank all of their life go to see NDs very often. The reality is that people do live their lives this way and MDs treat their symptoms, these people will remain sick. Obviously the ND will have healthier patients, and will likely boast this fact to increase or validate their own compensation.
Like was said, there's a reason for both of these professions... related... but quite different.

Bottom line is, the MD will let you practice anything you want, should you choose to educate yourself in that area. Quite the opposite for the ND.

I also like the 'go get an MD at Yale and a residency at Mayo', if you want to practice integrative medicine. :rolleyes:

THis is true. People who seek out ND's are people who are interested in doing the best thing for themselves. MD's try (or should try) to encourage lifestyle modifications etc. for various diseases. If you look at stats, about 85% of people newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes won't have it if they get to a normal weight. 98% of patients (in my estimation) don't do it.

ND's probably see a more educated population, a more affluent population, and a more motivated population. This is great. It gives you the chance to really make a difference without drugs. Of course, many medications significantly reduce morbidity and mortality. It is nice to be able to implement these things as well. Not all western medicine is evil. I don't know why people have to take sides on the issue, the 2 approaches can co-exist well. Having an MD is a more stable approach financially, and lets you combine the 2 approaches as you see fit.

[firstdonoharm]

peptic ulcer disease secondary to H. Pylori.
Tuberculosis.
Infectious disease.

there are many other 'cures' that modern medicine has developed.

those doctors must be either really dumb (which i doubt) or this is just an attempt to equate a REAL doctor with those who are not.


In response to cured disease such as tuberculosis, smallpox etc…
The truth about the resolution of these diseases can be found on the site below for those who dare to seek the truth! These so-called medical cures that erase plagues from the face of the earth were NOT the truth cure. See for yourself. These diseases were already on a serious decline YEARS BEFORE modern medicine intervened. It was the natural hygiene movement that lead to the decline of them.
If you would like to know more about what the amazing smallpox vaccine actually did, I suggest you go to the following site and see for yourself.
The concept of vaccine was an amazing thought but had great fault.
http://www.truthquest2.com/vaccination.htm (http://www.truthquest2.com/vaccination.htm) Look at the photos of the children and infants and the effect vaccines had on them.
Perhaps immunization graphs (which are available to the public) might help also show the true decline of these so-called plagues…
http://www.pamkilleen.com/Media/Vaccine%20Tables%20(R%20Obomsawin).pdf (http://www.pamkilleen.com/Media/Vaccine%20Tables%20(R%20Obomsawin).pdf)

[firstdonoharm]

(Infantile hypertrophic) pyloric stenosis
Appendicitis

A chance to cut is a chance to cure.

And how is it that these brilliant French med students never mentioned chlamydia or gonorrhea?

And ever heard of smallpox? Modern medicine erases a plague from the face of the earth . . . that's gotta count.


By removing a body organ or tissue does not CURE. It merely removes the tissue in question. You have not addressed the CAUSE of disease. In the case of appendicitis, this type of individual needs to have their entire diet and digestive history reviewed. Then, and only then, can the physician truly understand why this patient had such a sever appendix flare-up. The type of individual who is at risk of appendicitis tends to be one who lacks adequate water and fiber intake, less likely to exercise (such as walking) eats a SAD diet, overweight (not always). Yes, appendectomies save a life, but the surgery did not address the CAUSE. There is a difference.....fortunately in the case of acute severe appendicits surgery will save the life.

The same holds true for gallbladder surgery. The cause must be addressed before considering removing a vital organ of the digestive system. God made us with both a gallbladder and an appendix (and other tissues).....my guess is that we are supposed to have them.

[firstdonoharm]

(Infantile hypertrophic) pyloric stenosis
Appendicitis

And ever heard of smallpox? Modern medicine erases a plague from the face of the earth . . . that's gotta count.

RE smallpox...... As I have already mentioned, smallpox was already on a serious decline by the time the vaccine was invented. Also, the alarming rise in smallpox was attributed to the smallpox vaccine itself. Not to smallpox. Many countries lost many citizens because of this vaccine. Germany lost over 200,000 people .....ALL WERE VACCINATED AGAINST SMALLPOX!!!

Unfortunately there are many hidden historical medical truths nowadays and the older the event the least likely it is fresh in our minds.

I truly invite you to look into the history of some of these supposed medical miracle cures. Vaccines are not the safest method to control outbreaks of disease. Vaccines are highly contaminated and will always be. (The lead scientist working on the polio vaccine at the time noted that all animals vaccinated developed leukemia. Did you know that??? Guess it was another historical medical fact long forgotten. If you can read about the history of these vaccines I am sure you will come to your own conclusions. Don't be afraid to give credit where it is due. It will make you a better doctor.

[firstdonoharm]

I forgot to include the following information with the message above. These sites really make one think about vaccines role in supposed eradication of disease.

http://www.truthquest2.com/vaccination.htm (http://www.truthquest2.com/vaccination.htm) Look at the photos of the children and infants and the effect vaccines had on them.

Perhaps immunization graphs (which are available to the public) might help also show the true decline of these so-called plagues…
http://www.pamkilleen.com/Media/Vaccine%20Tables%20(R%20Obomsawin).pdf (http://www.pamkilleen.com/Media/Vaccine%20Tables%20(R%20Obomsawin).pdf)