Clinical Rotation Manipulation

[PaddyMelt]

As a current fourth term student, I am concerned over some rumors which have been circulating regarding placement in clinical rotations.

Is it possible that some students currently in St. Vincent were able to actually manipulate the lottery to decide where they would be doing their clinical rotations? If so, what steps is the school taking to ensure that this does not happen in the future? Additionally, have there been any punishments for those responsible for this travesty?

Any information that students currently in St. Vincent can provide would be much appreciated. If any school administrators can shed some light on the subject, that would obviously help.

[jaywalk81]

some shaddy stuff going on huh? i dont think any of us would be able to find out more info on this, simply b/c i dont think anyone would admit to it altho some people do have an idea of who

[mangmang]

As a current fourth term student, I am concerned over some rumors which have been circulating regarding placement in clinical rotations.

Is it possible that some students currently in St. Vincent were able to actually manipulate the lottery to decide where they would be doing their clinical rotations? If so, what steps is the school taking to ensure that this does not happen in the future? Additionally, have there been any punishments for those responsible for this travesty?

Any information that students currently in St. Vincent can provide would be much appreciated. If any school administrators can shed some light on the subject, that would obviously help.
Hi, well first things first there is a reason they call them rumors, secondly there is no way anyone can manipulate ur clinical placement, they told us close to 85% match to their first choice and even if you dont match to your first choice you can apeal their decision and they will help you as much as they can, hopefully this help.

[jaywalk81]

how does the rotations get set up? i know SGU probably gives out a form and ask the students to rank the hospitals they want to rotate thro, and i am sure most students would choose a site that is close to their home to save money and be close to family and friends, but do sgu require proof of residence so they can actually verify that student X really do live in this area and his/her parents do live there so he/she has legit preference in choosing this site. and if proof of residence is used, heck that can be used as a way to manipulate clinical rotation set up.

[mangmang]

how does the rotations get set up? i know SGU probably gives out a form and ask the students to rank the hospitals they want to rotate thro, and i am sure most students would choose a site that is close to their home to save money and be close to family and friends, but do sgu require proof of residence so they can actually verify that student X really do live in this area and his/her parents do live there so he/she has legit preference in choosing this site. and if proof of residence is used, heck that can be used as a way to manipulate clinical rotation set up.
Hi, no the university doesnt require any proof, the ask for you reasons for choosing those sites or if you prefer one over the other and you get to explain your reasons. hope this helped

[jaywalk81]

Hi, no the university doesnt require any proof, the ask for you reasons for choosing those sites or if you prefer one over the other and you get to explain your reasons. hope this helped
thanks. so as long as you have a legit reason for selecting a site, then you should be able to get it?

[sgustudent2009]

Another rumor. You can't actually manipulate yout clinical rotations sites. The school allows you to put down three choices (and most people get either their first or second choice). You can put down reasons why you made your choices as such. Of course that opens it up to abuse, which if the school does find out you are lying, you can be disciplined...or even expelled.

Our class is finding out tomorrow where we are placed (primary placements that is).

[jaywalk81]

anyone know the process of how the school grants a site to a student then if they dont verify any of the info? do they based it just on the reasons the student puts down on the form? GPA consideration?

[davids]

anyone know the process of how the school grants a site to a student then if they dont verify any of the info? do they based it just on the reasons the student puts down on the form? GPA consideration?



gpa plays no role what so ever. of course there will be popular hospitals like the ones in brooklyn where most people I think will choose. this may mean too many people for the hospital..so I guess some may be slightly disappointed and thats why they get their second choice. this is what I think, im not quite sure. you can say for example that you have family in brooklyn of course...theres nothing wrong in that, if the school checks up on it so be it. im not entirely sure how the school decides on one person getting a spot over the over. but definitely gpa plays no role

[PaddyMelt]

Well, riddle me this - did the 5th/6th term students have to re-do any of their clinical applications? If so, why?

It seems easy enough to manipulate - just give a primary residence in the area you would like, and give that same residence to enough people - you should get what you want. Of course, if the school finds out, which is likely what happened in this case, then you should be disciplined. Unfortunately, it has the appearance that no one was punished.

[stephew]

Well, riddle me this - did the 5th/6th term students have to re-do any of their clinical applications? If so, why?

It seems easy enough to manipulate - just give a primary residence in the area you would like, and give that same residence to enough people - you should get what you want. Of course, if the school finds out, which is likely what happened in this case, then you should be disciplined. Unfortunately, it has the appearance that no one was punished.
it might be a nice idea to ask someone at the school, a dean perhaps rather than speculate over the internet.

[rokshana]

well... i do know that there are some people who suddenly become couples and tell clin ed that they would like to be at the same place... my term its amazing how many of those "couples" (22 of the 25 i knew of) were matched at their #1 choice- i mean if it were all that random i would have expected for them to have fared worse not better than the single student ( i mean that's the way it seems to work in the real match)- i doubt that the school checks to see if you are a bona fide couple.

[davids]

yeh its true people did have to re write their statements explaining their reasons. though im sure people have used the couples thing and have family in New York for example in previous terms. do they need discipling..i dont think so, not so much of a big deal. its just like people getting notes from previous classes on exams. should they have to re write the exam?

[jaywalk81]

well... i do know that there are some people who suddenly become couples and tell clin ed that they would like to be at the same place... my term its amazing how many of those "couples" (22 of the 25 i knew of) were matched at their #1 choice- i mean if it were all that random i would have expected for them to have fared worse not better than the single student ( i mean that's the way it seems to work in the real match)- i doubt that the school checks to see if you are a bona fide couple.
just for fun, wonder if the school accepts a gay/lesbian couple

[stephew]

i dont know what the official school policy is on that. I would think that personal views and formal policy aside, if someone has a place to live with someone they want to live with, that should be sufficient

[Sam2004]

well... i do know that there are some people who suddenly become couples and tell clin ed that they would like to be at the same place... my term its amazing how many of those "couples" (22 of the 25 i knew of) were matched at their #1 choice- i mean if it were all that random i would have expected for them to have fared worse not better than the single student ( i mean that's the way it seems to work in the real match)- i doubt that the school checks to see if you are a bona fide couple.

Well, to squash that rumour. I was in SVG last term and am part of a "couple" (who is now my husband). We got our second choice in clinicals (not our first). Not to mention that Clin Ed told us that not only would "couples" get placed together but "friends" would too, so i know of many groups of "friends" who got placed together as well, and no, not in their first choice either. They just got placed where there were enough spots to accomodate them all. The same goes for my husband and I. It actualy decreases your chance of getting your first choice.

So if that was true in your term, it is not true anymore.

[rokshana]

Well, to squash that rumour. I was in SVG last term and am part of a "couple" (who is now my husband). We got our second choice in clinicals (not our first). Not to mention that Clin Ed told us that not only would "couples" get placed together but "friends" would too, so i know of many groups of "friends" who got placed together as well, and no, not in their first choice either. They just got placed where there were enough spots to accomodate them all. The same goes for my husband and I. It actualy decreases your chance of getting your first choice.

So if that was true in your term, it is not true anymore.

well that's good that they changed that loophole- didn't think it was all that fair that 2 people (unless married or engaged and getting married during clinicals) could trump just a single person and get a spot just cause they were "together".

[ndndevil2x]

Well, to squash that rumour. I was in SVG last term and am part of a "couple" (who is now my husband). We got our second choice in clinicals (not our first). Not to mention that Clin Ed told us that not only would "couples" get placed together but "friends" would too, so i know of many groups of "friends" who got placed together as well, and no, not in their first choice either. They just got placed where there were enough spots to accomodate them all. The same goes for my husband and I. It actualy decreases your chance of getting your first choice.

So if that was true in your term, it is not true anymore.



ya i agreee.. i applied with some of my friends and we got our THIRD CHOICE... i was really dissapointed- then i got over it! I didnt even think they read our reasons.
so if u are applyin gas a group they tend to put u as a group WHERVER they have spots to accomodate the group....

[kingalls]

Yeah, I actually started clinicals in August, so I went through all of this last spring. Applied and didn't get any of my top 3, just got randomly stuck at Brookdale. So I appealed, and was told by the school that 'they consider all of their sites equivalent', even though they obviously aren't. Long story short I did end up getting re-placed at Lutheran which has worked out fairly well for me. Appeals seem to have worked for just about everyone I know that tried it. But no, not all sites are equivalent. Some just flat out suck.

[summerwind]

As a current fourth term student, I am concerned over some rumors which have been circulating regarding placement in clinical rotations.

Is it possible that some students currently in St. Vincent were able to actually manipulate the lottery to decide where they would be doing their clinical rotations? If so, what steps is the school taking to ensure that this does not happen in the future? Additionally, have there been any punishments for those responsible for this travesty?

Any information that students currently in St. Vincent can provide would be much appreciated. If any school administrators can shed some light on the subject, that would obviously help.

PaddyMelt why would this rumor be your very first post? This makes me suspicious.

[jaywalk81]

so correct me if i am wrong, but it seems to me that sgu doesnt have anyway "officially" to select student X for hospital X beside just what the student put down on a piece of paper. doesnt that seem too easy to manipulate? I am from nyc, but what if i want to do rotations in cali, i can just put down any address of friends i know in cali and put that on the form and say i have family there and i want cali hosptal x. so it seems like sgu is running on a honety policy with clinica rotation site selection, which is great that they trust the students, but it is also very easily manipulated if there is no formal checks IMO.

[cavalletti]

so correct me if i am wrong, but it seems to me that sgu doesnt have anyway "officially" to select student X for hospital X beside just what the student put down on a piece of paper. doesnt that seem too easy to manipulate? I am from nyc, but what if i want to do rotations in cali, i can just put down any address of friends i know in cali and put that on the form and say i have family there and i want cali hosptal x. so it seems like sgu is running on a honety policy with clinica rotation site selection, which is great that they trust the students, but it is also very easily manipulated if there is no formal checks IMO.

It sounds like SGU is trying to be very accomodating. What's wrong with indicating a preference for a cali hospital because that's where you want to be, regardless of whether you have family there?

[rokshana]

It sounds like SGU is trying to be very accomodating. What's wrong with indicating a preference for a cali hospital because that's where you want to be, regardless of whether you have family there?


nothing, but there are, as we know, very few cali spots and if someone is from cali then they should have preference over someone who has no connection to the state.

[RussianJoo]

What if that cali person doesn't want to do rotations in cali? I know one guy from cali that's going to be doing his rotations at Coney Island. I think he picked Coney Island as one of his top choices.. Just put down where you want to do your rotations, and if you don't get them then appeal, then the school will probably look into the reason you want a hospital closer and make a choice if they want to switch you with someone or not.

you guys are talking about manipulations as if you're cheating on your taxes and trying to write things off that you never bought. As most people said you will most likely get your 1st or 2nd choice so put down where you want to go and that's it. No one is breaking any rules by saying I want to do a rotation in cali even though i am from NY.

[hipbone]

.... But no, not all sites are equivalent. Some just flat out suck.


Perhaps someone can shed light on what makes a site inferior/superior, and more importantly, how does one know before choosing their placements?

Thanks

[rokshana]

Perhaps someone can shed light on what makes a site inferior/superior, and more importantly, how does one know before choosing their placements?

Thanks


honest anwer? you don't. there is very little info out there, short of talking to upper terms you know in clinicals and what is posted here.

while i agree not all sites are equilvant, there is also no one perfect clinical site one place may have a great medicine rotation, but the surgery one sucks. Also depends on what is important to you. You quickly learn that you are either a "thinker" or a "doer". For a thinker to be a place that is all hands on- its a horrible center. For the doer- its fabulous!!! And vise versa- you need to decide which you are-(hard until you are actually in rotations though i think to really know which one you are) and then find out which places are more hands on or have more didactics and pick that place.

i heard (heard that's all) Elmhirst /Queens is good overall- get to do stuff and good amount of lectures, but dept specfic)

heard Brooklyn is good for most things but Medicine is horrible
heard Coney is decent (though heard from the term before that it was horrible, so...)
heard so- so about Maimo- mostly that they don't let you do anything
heard St Barnabas- heard you don't have to do alot of hands on, but if you WANT to the opportunity is there
heard beth israel- get to do alot
heard jersey city - get to do alot
st joes- medicine - lots of teaching, don't get to do alot, surgery- very hands on, not so much in the form of didactics, peds- lots of diadactics, but not that organized - very resident oriented, ob/gyn- good mix- diadactics with the ability to do alot, pysch- lots of learning(actually was quite enjoyable- is a realistic dept), family -little slow paced, but get to see pts- mandatory 6weeks though, wished it was shorter. (guess where i am?)
so take all of that with a grain of salt- its just MY opinion.

talk to people you know who are like you in terms of study and see where they liked.

[RussianJoo]

I am definitely a doer, thinking hurts my head :(

[RussianJoo]

honest anwer? you don't. there is very little info out there, short of talking to upper terms you know in clinicals and what is posted here.

while i agree not all sites are equilvant, there is also no one perfect clinical site one place may have a great medicine rotation, but the surgery one sucks. Also depends on what is important to you. You quickly learn that you are either a "thinker" or a "doer". For a thinker to be a place that is all hands on- its a horrible center. For the doer- its fabulous!!! And vise versa- you need to decide which you are-(hard until you are actually in rotations though i think to really know which one you are) and then find out which places are more hands on or have more didactics and pick that place.

i heard (heard that's all) Elmhirst /Queens is good overall- get to do stuff and good amount of lectures, but dept specfic)

heard Brooklyn is good for most things but Medicine is horrible
heard Coney is decent (though heard from the term before that it was horrible, so...)
heard so- so about Maimo- mostly that they don't let you do anything
heard St Barnabas- heard you don't have to do alot of hands on, but if you WANT to the opportunity is there
heard beth israel- get to do alot
heard jersey city - get to do alot
st joes- medicine - lots of teaching, don't get to do alot, surgery- very hands on, not so much in the form of didactics, peds- lots of diadactics, but not that organized - very resident oriented, ob/gyn- good mix- diadactics with the ability to do alot, pysch- lots of learning(actually was quite enjoyable- is a realistic dept), family -little slow paced, but get to see pts- mandatory 6weeks though, wished it was shorter. (guess where i am?)
so take all of that with a grain of salt- its just MY opinion.

talk to people you know who are like you in terms of study and see where they liked.

Jersey city isn't a clinical center right?
Also so you're saying if you want good amount of diadactics, and will be active and asking to do hands on stuff then St. Barnabas is a good choice. or is the opportunity to do hands on stuff limited?

[jrosenberg]

My good friend at Barnabus said he doesn't like Barnabus in Livingston very much b/c he does not get to do anything. They are all like private patients and they won't let med students touch them for the most part. he did say that he loved his rotations at Newark Beth Israel where you do some of your cores when placed at barnabus and that he said was great-lots of hands on. He is scheduling most of his 4th year there.

[RussianJoo]

yeah that's what i heard too. and that's what the course director at SBMC told me too, that they teach mostly by didactics and that we'll have plenty of time to do hand on stuff during our residency.

So why is that this hospital is so popular amongst our students? I know a few people that have specifically picked it not because it was so close to their home but because they think it's one of the best hospitals offered to us from the list of SGU affiliated hospitals. Also some people who have done rotations there have said that they got to do a lot of procedures as well.
I don't know who to believe... I think i am going to stay clear of it and just do my rotations at ST. Joe's

[platinumxx80]

Each Clinical Center Is Different Has Their Own Unique Style...but Overall All The Clinical Sites Share One Characteristic

YOU WORK IN A DUMP...you Get Used As Cheap Labor And You And U Dont Learn Anything...

Use Ur 12 Weeks Of Outside Electives...go Do A Real Rotation At A Real Hospital

[RussianJoo]

haha no wonder you have 2 infractions...

ST. Barnabas is actually a very nice clean hospital with the latest equipment. as for what you learn and how they treat you, i have no clue.

[Toddaa1]

Each Clinical Center Is Different Has Their Own Unique Style...but Overall All The Clinical Sites Share One Characteristic

YOU WORK IN A DUMP...you Get Used As Cheap Labor And You And U Dont Learn Anything...

Use Ur 12 Weeks Of Outside Electives...go Do A Real Rotation At A Real Hospital

your wrong in 2 ways. first off "cheap" implies that the hospital is actually paying to use us, but we are actually paying them to do their work. as for the learning, you will learn a few things in each rotation.
for example

Surgery: I am certain I can remove a gall bladder without killing the
patient.

peds: you will know how to treat asthma for the rest of your life. I also
learned that having rota virus really sucks.

OB-Gyn I am now capable of removing a uterus, and tieing tubes. and i
could be drunk as an anaesthesiologist and still perform a c-section.

Medicine: Just started this week, but i learned that if i keep eating at all teh drug rep breakfasts/brunches/lunches i will need to see a cardiologist.

Psych: The people in here arent half as crazy as what i see on the subways each day.

-T-

[platinumxx80]

your wrong in 2 ways. first off "cheap" implies that the hospital is actually paying to use us, but we are actually paying them to do their work. as for the learning, you will learn a few things in each rotation.
for example

Surgery: I am certain I can remove a gall bladder without killing the
patient.

peds: you will know how to treat asthma for the rest of your life. I also
learned that having rota virus really sucks.

OB-Gyn I am now capable of removing a uterus, and tieing tubes. and i
could be drunk as an anaesthesiologist and still perform a c-section.

Medicine: Just started this week, but i learned that if i keep eating at all teh drug rep breakfasts/brunches/lunches i will need to see a cardiologist.

Psych: The people in here arent half as crazy as what i see on the subways each day.

-T-

YES UR TOTALLY RIGHT...WE PAY THEM SO WE CAN DO THEIR WORK...THAT EVEN A MORE OF A SLAP IN THE FACE...SINCE WE PAY ALL THIS MONEY..WE SHUD GET OUR MONEY'S WORTH..BUT WE DONT

HONESTLY IF YOU REALLY THING U CAN TAKE OUT A GALLBLADDER....WHATEVER UR SMOKING...CAN I HAVE SOME OF THAT...BECAUSE IT'S MAKING U THINK THAT UR THIS SUPER STUDENT LOL...

SO PLEASE COME BACK DOWN to earth and accept ur humble med student role and stop talking so aimlessly

[rokshana]

YES UR TOTALLY RIGHT...WE PAY THEM SO WE CAN DO THEIR WORK...THAT EVEN A MORE OF A SLAP IN THE FACE...SINCE WE PAY ALL THIS MONEY..WE SHUD GET OUR MONEY'S WORTH..BUT WE DONT

HONESTLY IF YOU REALLY THING U CAN TAKE OUT A GALLBLADDER....WHATEVER UR SMOKING...CAN I HAVE SOME OF THAT...BECAUSE IT'S MAKING U THINK THAT UR THIS SUPER STUDENT LOL...

SO PLEASE COME BACK DOWN to earth and accept ur humble med student role and stop talking so aimlessly


eh, with the number of lap chole i helped with(most 1st asst) i think i could almost take one out too!!

i know with the number of babies delivered in 6 weeks, i definitely can do that!!!

maybe you just didn't do much and stayed in the library and just read.

[platinumxx80]

yes i sat in the library the whole time...i was afraid to do anything hands on...i was very insecure with my "people skills".....so i hid in the library...crawled up into a ball and counted the hours down so i can run back home and cry myself to sleep......

[rokshana]

yes i sat in the library the whole time...i was afraid to do anything hands on...i was very insecure with my "people skills".....so i hid in the library...crawled up into a ball and counted the hours down so i can run back home and cry myself to sleep......

well...there you go!

[RussianJoo]

and i
could be drunk as an anaesthesiologist and still perform a c-section.

-T-

LOL! Hey I resent that !

[RussianJoo]

yes i sat in the library the whole time...i was afraid to do anything hands on...i was very insecure with my "people skills".....so i hid in the library...crawled up into a ball and counted the hours down so i can run back home and cry myself to sleep......

Do you mind saying where you did your rotations? because you're the first and only person I have heard to say that they learned nothing, and it was a huge waste of time.

[teratos]

Not knocking anyone, but if you don't learn anything on rotations, you have yourself to blame. The attendings are residents aren't going to seek you out to teach you something. They are all generally very busy. If you show an interest, and the people you are rotating with aren't total tools (which is rare...there are usually plenty of partial tools) you can learn plenty. I got to do a ton as a student. I did several cardiac caths myself (with the cardiologist behind me..but he did nothinig) when I was a 4th year med student. I put in a bunch of lines as a third year med student in medicine and surgery, among a bunch of other procedures. I asked if I could do them, and they were fine with it. Then there were the people who were quiet and sat around and waited for people to tell them what to do. They didn't get to do much. They were happy just to hear a heart murmur. It is mostly what you make it and how aggressive you are. I have seen this from all sides, I think I have a pretty clear idea of how it works. G

[cavalletti]

your wrong in 2 ways. first off "cheap" implies that the hospital is actually paying to use us, but we are actually paying them to do their work. as for the learning, you will learn a few things in each rotation.
for example

Surgery: I am certain I can remove a gall bladder without killing the
patient.

peds: you will know how to treat asthma for the rest of your life. I also
learned that having rota virus really sucks.

OB-Gyn I am now capable of removing a uterus, and tieing tubes. and i
could be drunk as an anaesthesiologist and still perform a c-section.

Medicine: Just started this week, but i learned that if i keep eating at all teh drug rep breakfasts/brunches/lunches i will need to see a cardiologist.

Psych: The people in here arent half as crazy as what i see on the subways each day.

-T-

This thread has some useful info. Did you do the above in 3rd or 4th year?

[MYung]

gpa plays no role what so ever. of course there will be popular hospitals like the ones in brooklyn where most people I think will choose. this may mean too many people for the hospital..so I guess some may be slightly disappointed and thats why they get their second choice. this is what I think, im not quite sure. you can say for example that you have family in brooklyn of course...theres nothing wrong in that, if the school checks up on it so be it. im not entirely sure how the school decides on one person getting a spot over the over. but definitely gpa plays no role

I believe Kern is the only hospital that looks at your GPA, you have to meet a certain minimum to rotate there.

Marco

[davids]

I believe Kern is the only hospital that looks at your GPA, you have to meet a certain minimum to rotate there.

Marco


i only go by what the chancellor and the deans told us at the meeting...gpa plays no role whats so ever.
i didnt even think kern was a choice for the our August term anyway

[rokshana]

i only go by what the chancellor and the deans told us at the meeting...gpa plays no role whats so ever.
i didnt even think kern was a choice for the our August term anyway

its a kern requirement, not an sgu one
its one of the reasons that kern is no longer offered to the Aug class, since there really isn't enough time to finish in vinnies, study, take step I and get the scores back intime for the july start date. Now the jan class is the only one that gets kern and they have two start dates. Since you are august class, its probably why it wasn't mentioned.

kern requires a 3.4 /220 for students that start their rotations there. Interestingly enough, if you feed in later, there is no requirement.