The truth about DO's - from a DO

[sylvian291]

After reading so much misinformation about DOs on this board, I felt the need to clarify a few points.

1) If you care about the initials after your name, go to the Carribean. My opinions on your motives for going into medicine mean nothing. It's your decision.

2) The supposed "stigma" people speak of. Let me tell you right off the bat that this should not be a reason to avoid the DO path. Generally speaking, I think if you want a shot at a neurosurgery or opthomology MD residency, get an MD. To tell you the truth though, I doubt a foreign MD would stand a very good chance at getting those residencies either but I know there are those hard working exceptions. EM, cards, neuro, int med, family practice, ortho, psych, path, and every other specialty i could think of - if you're interested as a DO and it's competitive, do research over the summers, ace rotations, and ace the complex and/or USMLE and you'll be competitive. With residencies, the only advantage I could think of by going DO over foreign MD is having the osteopathic residencies to choose from in addition to MDs. I will say this though, it is total ** that DO residencies are not open to MDs. Most students disagree with the current setup, but it's the higherups in control, not us. In the end, some X residency might now like DOs, and Y residency might not like foreign MDs. Depends on location a lot as well.

3) So a few patients will ask me what "DO" stands for. What's the big deal? I explain many years ago there was a difference in philosophies and in modern society the osteopathic field has more or less merged with the allopathic field as far as practice of medicine is concerned (with the exception of the few DOs who do utilize OMM on a regular basis). Is it really the end of the world having to say an extra two sentences? In addition, I've never heard a patient say "I want a real doctor" to me or any of the DO attendings who work right along side the MD attendings. I'm sure somewhere in the world it has happened a few times, but being afraid of that happening is completely irrational. I have a feeling when people say "but I don't want to explain to every patient what a DO is" they're really saying "I want the world to respect me, and I don't feel I will get that respect as a DO." To that I say, by all means go for the foreign MD. Nothing I have to say will change that opinion. One last thing about this subtopic, the comment "nobody knows what a DO is" depends on what part of the country you're in. On the east and west coast, I assure you there are no identity problems with the osteopathic profession. I can't comment on every single other state since I haven't been to most of them. Most of the time, especially in the ER, you introduce yourself as Dr. soandso (regardless of MD or DO) and the patient never knows the initials after your name. The bottom line is you're there to treat them and comfort them. That's all that matters to them.

4) OMM and such. Some of it I believe is valid, some of it is far fetched and gives our profession a bad name. At this point we can't pick and choose what we learn. The best we can do is pick and choose what we use in practice. For any premeds or MD students who rip on OMM, I'll wager a day's pay (which is $0 for me) they didn't even bother to read about the theories behind some of the more rationally based manipulations. Their friend told them it's **, so they automatically adopt that opinion. Doesn't sound like someone who can think for themself, does it? Read some of the principles on counterstrain techniques, pick up a good medical physiology text, and then present to a DO your reasons as to why you disagree with the validity of the technique. That's the way a rational scientific minded person would act, rather than going on a message board and screaming "it's all crap" over and over with nothing to back it up. As far as courseload is concerned, I don't know how many hours other schools spend covering biochem. All I know is we go through the chapters in Lippencott without skipping any. Yes, we memorized all the enzymes and intermediate products in the Krebs cycle, glycolysis, protein metabolism, etc. From my experience and what I've heard in the past, biochem isn't stressed as much on the COMLEX as the USMLE. Biostats is virtually nonexistant on the COMLEX if my memory serves me correctly.

5) If you really plan on practicing medicine in certain countries in europe, then yes, a DO isn't accepted in certain countries. How many of you here actually plan on practicing in Europe? I know I sure as hell don't. Therefore, this doesn't play a role in your childish "which is better: MD vs DO" arguments. If you really want to practice in Europe, than MD is your only option, period. It shouldn't matter who gets what residencies or what patients think of DOs. For people who plan on practicing in the US, which is the majority of us I believe, DO practice rights outside of the US is a moot point.

6) DOs can be licensed IN ALL 50 STATES. There are 5 states that require us to do a 1 year rotating internship year before the actual residency in order to practice in those states. Now, if you're doing an osteopathic residency, that rotating internship year is already built into the residency. If you're doing a dually accredited residency, again, it's already built in. If you're doing an allopathic residency, there are ways to get around that rotating internship year (assuming you didn't want to do it). I couldn't tell you exactly what the loopholes are, but from what I understand pretty much anyone who plays their cards right (says the right thing to the AOA) is able to "get out of" that year, assuming they didn't want to go through with it before applying to the allopathic residency. Again, I stress, THIS IS ONLY FOR 5 OUT OF THE 50 STATES..I think they include West Virginia, Oklahoma, PA, florida I think, and one more. All the other states, you don't need that rotating internship year.

7) There are many DO students who couldn't get into an MD school. There are some DO students who specifically chose DO over MD. The bottom line is everyone at my school wants to be a doctor.

8) Philosophy. Treating the patient as a whole. All propaganda in my opinion. Perhaps 80 years ago there was a difference in philosophies. Not anymore.

9) Neither MDs or DOs will ever have a lack of patients to see. That's the one thing everyone keeps forgetting.

10) SDN. Don't believe a word you hear on there. The majority of the population is pre meds who have an unlimited amount of time on their hands (compared to those of us in med school) and use that time to argue and state their opinions as fact because their "uncle's cousin's friend" told them how it is.

In closing, If you're one of the few on this board that wastes their time bashing DOs or trying to find reasons to justify why your carribean MD is better than a DO, why not use that time to put in a little more studying? Cause when it comes time to apply for residencies, there are SOME residencies where you're going to have to have exceptional grades and really stand out, whether your a foreign MD or US DO. The bottom line after all this is that nobody cares about all this MD vs DO crap unless you're a premed and you still think you're going to be at the top of your med school class, on your way to that neurosurgery residency.

[swimguy23]

dont you know posting good, useful information on VMD is against TOS?




:)

[sheikh1]

Do Med !!!!!!

[drjohnwebb]

It doesn't matter if you have a DO or a MD (from a foreign school) there will always be a stigma with both. The advantage of having a MD is, just that patients won't ask you what MD stands for. Post ignorant people will not know what DO stands for, but they won't really care either. I can tell you from being a chirorpactor for the last 5.5 years, people will say.. I like that doctor.. but you know they are not a MD, they are a DO. I have also heard negative comments about IMGs. "you know he couldn't even get into a US school, he went somewhere in the Caribbean".

However.. I was only the bottom of the pole, I am a chiropractor... so I am not even a "real" doctor. Yet, I make more money than most family medicine docs. I also get just as much respect from MY patients as they give their MD. Patients that don't come to see me, think I don't know what I am talking about..

As far as manipulation, I can tell you it works and works well. No, it doesn't help everything, but works well for musculoskeletal problems. I get most of my business because most MDs don't know what to do for simple joint and muscle problems.

Most DOs don't do that much manipulation once they start practicing, they are pretty much identical to MDs.

Here is some advice... do whatever it is you do and don't worry about your title.. patients will come to you and if you are good at what you do, it won't matter what letters are behind your name.

[aaron1483]

This whole "debate" is rediculous anyways. i have worked in a hospital for several years and have met DO's who were in fact opthomologists and anesthesiologists. i have also met Caribbean, Indian, European, heck even Russian MD's who were in surgery, anesthesia, dermatology, etc. My point is, just go to school and worry about one person, YOU. Once you get into a residency or do clinicals, you will see that this whole debate is pointless.

[billydoc]

Most arguements on this topic are just nauseating rants by clueless premeds who are niether one nor another. But it appears that when you get back to the States ppl to whom it may concern automatically assume that you didn't get in U.S (MD or D.O). When I first went to ROSS I did so b/c it took me a little less than one month to get in :shock: as opposed to starting the whole primary/secondary/tertiary and quaternary applications. I didn't even know what it means. Why I applied to ROSS and SABA? B/c no MCAT was required (early 2004), and I thought I'll shave a couple of yrs by going now. Unfortunately, such quick and sweet "Victories" worked against me. I'm back to square one three years later, but this time will try U.S first. Due to my age I'll be applying D.O mostly.

[stateofequilibrium]

Well, while my motives might be questionable in regards to your first point. When you had a goal in mind for a long while, it's hard to change that dream from the MD to DO even if the differences are minute

[stateofequilibrium]

Most arguements on this topic are just nauseating rants by clueless premeds who are niether one nor another. But it appears that when you get back to the States ppl to whom it may concern automatically assume that you didn't get in U.S (MD or D.O). When I first went to ROSS I did so b/c it took me a little less than one month to get in :shock: as opposed to starting the whole primary/secondary/tertiary and quaternary applications. I didn't even know what it means. Why I applied to ROSS and SABA? B/c no MCAT was required (early 2004), and I thought I'll shave a couple of yrs by going now. Unfortunately, such quick and sweet "Victories" worked against me. I'm back to square one three years later, but this time will try U.S first. Due to my age I'll be applying D.O mostly.

Those premeds will figure it out. A lot of my friends who made to MD were also thinking Caribbean route. Those that went to DO were those that tried again to get into a US school after a masters and such. Others, like myself, just gave 'em the bird and went Caribbean.

[billydoc]

Well, while my motives might be questionable in regards to your first point. When you had a goal in mind for a long while, it's hard to change that dream from the MD to DO even if the differences are minute

Hey SOE! Did you really dream of being MD or more so of being a doctor? I mean in a clinical sense of a full-fledged physician, not a Ph.D or some other title that is also a doctor. I know that "doctor" is pretty much synonimous with MD, but if D.O gets you in the same place, and you can stay in the States and have zero licensing issues when you're done..why not D.O?

[swimguy23]

here's my take on it.....unless someone is paying for your entire med school education, telling another person they are wrong for a choice that is equivalent is completely stupid

Go MD, go DO.....I dont care.

[stateofequilibrium]

Hey SOE! Did you really dream of being MD or more so of being a doctor? I mean in a clinical sense of a full-fledged physician, not a Ph.D or some other title that is also a doctor. I know that "doctor" is pretty much synonimous with MD, but if D.O gets you in the same place, and you can stay in the States and have zero licensing issues when you're done..why not D.O?

Well, I associated doctor with MD. Hell, I didn't even know what a DO was until halfway through college.

[OlderStudent]

DO or MD. Whichever route gets you where you want to be go for it.

[sheikh1]

Med wed Do !!!!

[DRDRWMD]

I have heard that American DO's are above in the pecking order in residency decision making process over Foreign MD's; however, a high USMLE score will enable either to obtain a competitive residency. I prefer the philosophy of DO, but the initials are a factor as well. Both providers make great physicians.

[teratos]

I have heard that American DO's are above in the pecking order in residency decision making process over Foreign MD's; however, a high USMLE score will enable either to obtain a competitive residency. I prefer the philosophy of DO, but the initials are a factor as well. Both providers make great physicians.

I think people make too much of the pecking order....;)

[stephew]

geroges is ABSOLUTELY right. ther eis NO "pecking order" of DOs over IMGs or vice versa. ALL these stundets are understood to be people who failed to get into a us medical (allo) school. some pds like some imgs, some like some dos, some neither. anyone who claims there is a pecking order either doesnt understand the issues out there or has an agenda that is more important to them than the reality.

[swimguy23]

geroges is ABSOLUTELY right. ther eis NO "pecking order" of DOs over IMGs or vice versa. ALL these stundets are understood to be people who failed to get into a us medical (allo) school. some pds like some imgs, some like some dos, some neither. anyone who claims there is a pecking order either doesnt understand the issues out there or has an agenda that is more important to them than the reality.


i thought we already had a little talk about you bringing logic and good advice into this forum.....its against vmd tos! ;)


george, same goes for you

jk jk

[stephew]

that is why you dont see much sound advice. all those who insisted on it were banned.

[aaron1483]

the reality is, once you are a resident NOONE CARES WHERE YOU WENT TO MEDICAL SCHOOL....you are a doctor

[stephew]

while more or less true, that's not the only issue; the ipractical issue is what sort of opportunities you have. and its not all equal.

[billydoc]

And this brings us back to U.S graduate vs IMG residency opportunity. I don't know why but in my immediate sorroundings ppl who went to Ross with me, and are now about to finish tell me that they regret not trying D.O. I understand that it's hard to have a substantiated arguement b/c nobody knows how it would've turned out for them if they've gone D.O. But why do they always bring it up? These are the folks who maintaine nearly 4.0 GPA thrugh both B.S and clinical portion? My point was always...well...D.O can't be that much better, ROSS is well-known. But they do insist that for ortho it does matter, b/c of D.O residency option. Go figure.

[stephew]

i know of NO ONE who wishes they got a DO instread of an MD from sgu- or rather no one has ever expressed a sentiment to me. i dont know of any DO's whoever ever expressed a wish to have gottren an IMG MD instead.

[swimguy23]

that is why you dont see much sound advice. all those who insisted on it were banned.

and your usernname absorbs their post count huh?


:)

[billydoc]

i know of NO ONE who wishes they got a DO instread of an MD from sgu- or rather no one has ever expressed a sentiment to me. i dont know of any DO's whoever ever expressed a wish to have gottren an IMG MD instead.

Those are the specialties that I've heard from Ross IMGs they whished they've gun D.O. It's not that they wished to have a D.O instead of MD. What these guys are saying it was easier in these particular programs for their D.O counterparts to get attention, and an interviews. Of course, when the dust settles nobody even is going to remember this crap IMG vs D.O etc. But it's getting the residency you want is an issue. I, for one, want PM&R, Neuro or may be Psych. I know for now they are all within the reach for IMG with somegood work ethics. But what about all these new D.O and even some new allo schools openning up in U.S? Does it spell trouble for IMGs? I'm still debating (with myself mostly) if I should go back to Carib this May or try D.O? The problem is 2007 is a tough sell for D.O b/c the earliest I could take MCAT is in
May or even June, and that still is "may be". Otherwise my stats are quite impressive. At least it wasn't an issue with ROSS and SABA back in '04.
So what do you guys think about possibly less spots for IMGs b/c D.O schools are expandidng?

[stephew]

So what do you guys think about possibly less spots for IMGs b/c D.O schools are expandidng?
not much. MD schools are expanding too. but if this makes do the preeminant non-allopathic us way to go, so be it. no biggie so long as they're good. Who cares? and I mean that in the best of ways (so chill out SDN DOs).

[billydoc]

not much. MD schools are expanding too. but if this makes do the preeminant non-allopathic us way to go, so be it. no biggie so long as they're good. Who cares? and I mean that in the best of ways (so chill out SDN DOs).
SDN D.O is not here, or at least not me anyway.
Steph, I'm sorry, I really have a hard time following you in your last post. my question was :Do you think there will be less spots for U.S IMGs b/c of U.S D.O (and M.D) expansion? I have to chose wether to spend another 1.5 yr on U.S (I'm pretty sure I'll get in) or just hech with that I'm 36.5 y.o already. I know what I want, and as it stands right now Carib could do the treak for me, but...that's for now. Who knows how tight is it gonna get 4 yrs from now. That's exactly the time when all these new U.S schools will start pumping out their first graduates?

[AUCMD2006]

SDN D.O is not here, or at least not me anyway.
Steph, I'm sorry, I really have a hard time following you in your last post. my question was :Do you think there will be less spots for U.S IMGs b/c of U.S D.O (and M.D) expansion? I have to chose wether to spend another 1.5 yr on U.S (I'm pretty sure I'll get in) or just hech with that I'm 36.5 y.o already. I know what I want, and as it stands right now Carib could do the treak for me, but...that's for now. Who knows how tight is it gonna get 4 yrs from now. That's exactly the time when all these new U.S schools will start pumping out their first graduates?


there are thousands of open residency slots, there is no way that the US medical establishment will allow an overflow of graduates, they like keeping a tight control on number of grads. having talked with attendings and other docs about this nobody wants to be in the position that chiros and pods are...schools all over the place, not enough jobs when they get out and being forced to 'creative marketing' to attract students with limo rides to the interviews. a very close friend of mine got accepted into life university without a single college credit, didn't finish high school either, they set up for him to take his pre-chiro classes at a nearby community college.... i don't think many in the MD/DO community want to be forced to resort to setting up booths at the mall.

well at least it will not afftect me now that is whats really important:twisted:

[billydoc]

there are thousands of open residency slots, there is no way that the US medical establishment will allow an overflow of graduates, they like keeping a tight control on number of grads. having talked with attendings and other docs about this nobody wants to be in the position that chiros and pods are...schools all over the place, not enough jobs when they get out and being forced to 'creative marketing' to attract students with limo rides to the interviews. a very close friend of mine got accepted into life university without a single college credit, didn't finish high school either, they set up for him to take his pre-chiro classes at a nearby community college.... i don't think many in the MD/DO community want to be forced to resort to setting up booths at the mall.

well at least it will not afftect me now that is whats really important:twisted:

Yep there is a real problem with chiro jobs, and allied health even with a doctoral degree. I, for one, have a license to practice acupuncture and an M.S degree in the field. T.G way before that I had my RN and could still create a nice six figure income by doing home care visits. Though paper work is a killer. But at least the acupuncture practice is on cash and carry basis, so I don't care if the insurance only patients don't come. I usually give them a super bill with ICD9 code and they send it back to their insurance company. But I feel sorry for the folks who got sucked into this field based on some romanticism. They've gotten quite a rude awakening once they got out in the real World. I guess same goes for absolutely clueless premeds who think they'll be at the top of te game all the way through. I guess my concern is...I don't want to regret going IMG when D.O was well within the reach with some effort. But when I open MCAT physics and Orgo really nauseate me. It's been soo long ago for me :shock: and not at such volume. So all of the sudden Carib IMG starting to look very good :lol: .Clinically oriented material, even remotely clininical, comes in way much easier than some abstract undergrad crap. And I realize that the clock is ticking...thus dilemma IMG now or D.O later. Let's have a vote :twisted:

[drjohnwebb]

Chiro is getting crowded, but you have to remember that there are only 60,000 chiros in the US. So statistically, there are enough people for all chiros. However, only about 10% of the population go to chiros.

I make more money as a chiro than most MDs in my town make and I only work 3 days a week. I have never done mall booths or "creative" marketing.

I am not going into medicine with money as my motivation. I want a larger scope of practice to help people.. and I should be able to make more money too.

I didn't want to do the MCAT either, since I took all those science classes in 10 years. However, I want to transfer back to a US school, so I have to have a MCAT score either way.

Carib was the only way for me, even though my GPA is good, I know I couldn't do that well on the MCAT now. I am however taking the MCAT next week, since I did find ONE US school that will allow me to take the January MCAT. So.. I am going to at least try to get in before I head to the Carribean.

[AUCMD2006]

you are one of the lucky ones and probably live in a small town. there are chiros in chicago making about $30,000 a year. there was a news story about a woman in san fran making $42,000 combined with a part time waitress job i think. plus you guys pad the bills quite creatively. i used to help run a MD office with referrals to chiros got calls for additional authorization for more visits and the reports they sent were masterpieces fictional art, more than the dermatologist reports...hehe you guys can actually still bill for services at fee for service so you can make some money if you have the volume but HMO's started placing limits on number of visits and car insurance now has caps for chiros. thats why there are usually even dentists are getting hit by hmo contracts....

[sylvian291]

What these guys are saying it was easier in these particular programs for their D.O counterparts to get attention, and an interviews.

Yes, I believe this is one area where a DO has an advantage. Before the crybabies come out screaming, it doesn't make a DO "better" than a foreign MD. Neither is better. They're both doctors. I believe DOs are at an advantage with certain residencies to an extent since they have a list of their own residencies not open to MDs (again, not saying the system is correct - i personally disagree with it). Ortho,derm, and gen surgery, DOs have the option of applying to osteopathic residencies in addition to allopathic. I don't have the numbers off hand but there are a lot more allopathic students (US and foreign) applying for those competitive allopathic residencies than there are DO students applying for the osteopathic competitive residencies. Of course I'd imagine there are fewer osteopathic residencies to begin with, so someone would have to find the time to do a numbers crunch to really find out the truth (ie: the ratio of students : # of residency spots of a particular specialty).

[drjohnwebb]

Well.. the AMA has tried (yeah right) to influence residency directors to treat IMGs as equals with USMGs. I have even seen where the AMA has asked states to give IMGs and USMGs the same residency requirements.

So.. if the states actually listen to the AMA, I think states will make ALL MDs to have 3 years min, or allow IMGs to do only 1 year, like US grads get.

[aaron1483]

I just think this entire debate is silly to begin with. If you want to do ortho or derm and you think you have a better shot at doing it from a D.O. school, then take the darn Mcat and go to one. If you want to do family practice, anesthesia or surgery go to a caribbean school and do good on the step. Neither is superior, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages, and I know from experience once you are finished and in a residency program it will not, i repeat not matter to anyone where you went to school. just do what you think is best for you

[stephew]

do not be fooled. i dont believe for a second that the ama has the LEAST bit of good intentions towards IMGs.
Steph.

[billydoc]

I just think this entire debate is silly to begin with. If you want to do ortho or derm and you think you have a better shot at doing it from a D.O. school, then take the darn Mcat and go to one. If you want to do family practice, anesthesia or surgery go to a caribbean school and do good on the step. Neither is superior, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages, and I know from experience once you are finished and in a residency program it will not, i repeat not matter to anyone where you went to school. just do what you think is best for you


Well, actually I don't see any debate here. I just brought up the perspective of the Carib student at the top of his class graduating soon who had several interviews for Ortho, Anasthesia, and Gen surgery. There is no question that with the scores like these (step1 98%, step2 94%, GPA near 4.0 and a bunch of super LORs) he'll get what he wants somewhere. I think this guy is truly in the carib by mistake anyway. he just never took MCAT, and wanted to go to med school ASAP. He says that knowing what he knows now he should've tried U.S including the D.O, yes for all of the above specialties. So I'm not a proponent of either one, just telling you all what this guy who took Carib route, and did exceptionally well, said he wishedhe'd gone D.O if not U.S allo. It seems to be a common knowledge that D.Os have a better shot at anything, considering all stats are equal (D.O vs IMG). But that seems to be downplayed big time on VMD. Of course, if you've already done with everything and practicing it's easy to say D.O vs IMG makes no difference. May be it was true some time ago. But things seem to be drying up, and the match gets very tight. so D.Os as an AMGs get first shot b/c their education is American not foreign. If I knew that I could get PM&R, neurology, psych with pain fellowship out of Carib, i wouldn't be doubting it. I recently asked one guy on SDN PM&R who was a chiro, went to Saba and got his steps in the 90s also. He matched, but said it would've been a lot more easier as a D.O. This opinion seems to be a consistant one, that's why I'm at a loss. I'm not talking about NS, Derm, Rads or anything even remotely as competative.No, PM&R was one of the most IMG- friendly specialties. Not so anymore. Anyway, I just wish that I was a little smarter and didn't stay as an RN, though not at the bedside for the longest time. I was in the comfort zone for way too long and didn't consider medicine untill I got in my mid 30s. You're probably right. If and when I get there (over 40 :shock: ) they'll still view me as an old fart no matter what degree I might have. And I don't have neither desire, nor patience and health to do residency over 3-4 yrs. I'malready giving up a sure more or less established nice life for something that may or may not (G-d forbid) materialize. :(

[drjohnwebb]

How did guy wish he would have gone DO, he would have still needed the MCAT. Story is a little off...

[billydoc]

How did guy wish he would have gone DO, he would have still needed the MCAT. Story is a little off...

It's not that the story is a little off, but your reading is. He wished that he had explored an AMERICAN medical education route. If he didn't get in U.S allo, then D.O would have been his next best option. Ppl read this posts and are trying to read into some freakish "hidden agenda". I know the guy personelly. he was my upper classmen at Ross. I'm afraid that he couldn't careless more if anybody on VMD of all places believes him or not. We both have a common friend who is in D.O ortho residency in NY. So now the guy I'm talking about decided to do ortho he sees it as a sure thing with his stats. His regret is not going to Ross or getting M.D after his name. He regrets not taking MCAT and trying U.S allo or D.O route first. For his goals he ranks NYCOM higher than ROSS. That's all there is. He actually said if he wanted anything less compatative he would not even bring this up. So believe what you want. I ain't selling anything.

[DRDRWMD]

In the end, it winds up being the initials and philosophy. If you want to be a more well rounded doctor, go for DO, if you prefer the allopathic approach go for MD. Also, if one needs to remain in the US (for students who would have to leave families to study), then DO is an excellent option. In the end, it will be one's skills as a provider that will make the difference.

[swimguy23]

In the end, it winds up being the initials and philosophy. If you want to be a more well rounded doctor, go for DO, if you prefer the allopathic approach go for MD. Also, if one needs to remain in the US (for students who would have to leave families to study), then DO is an excellent option. In the end, it will be one's skills as a provider that will make the difference.

i disagree DO's are more "well rounded".....for the most part we share many clinical sites

[billydoc]

Could somebody who really know what they are talking about answer the question I've been trying to get response on for a while, please. Do you guys think that an expansion of the American schools both MD and DO will limit sites for Carib schools clinical rotations, and eventually limit number of the residency spots for IMGs...say like in 4-5 years? The logic tells me that this is the case. But logic doesn't go a long way nowadays. Why not?

Thanks

[drjohnwebb]

US schools won't be expanding for at least 5 years. SO.... the next 9-10 years should be about the same...

[billydoc]

US schools won't be expanding for at least 5 years. SO.... the next 9-10 years should be about the same...

I don't know where you get your info from but Touro alone just opened D.O school in NY (that's their 3rd school) and NJ medical board gave them the go ahead for allopathic school in NJ which wull probably start in 2008. That's only one institution. Check ACOMAS and AMCAS sites for the updates. New Touro school will have their first class graduating in 2011. Things are happening. There is a school in FL, TN. But check the official sources. That is a real concern.

[AUCMD2006]

I don't know where you get your info from but Touro alone just opened D.O school in NY (that's their 3rd school) and NJ medical board gave them the go ahead for allopathic school in NJ which wull probably start in 2008. That's only one institution. Check ACOMAS and AMCAS sites for the updates. New Touro school will have their first class graduating in 2011. Things are happening. There is a school in FL, TN. But check the official sources. That is a real concern.

it is extremely expensive to open a med school in the states...you can't just buy a trailer and call it st. anything. the states with a lot of people and resources can and have started to expand, NY, NJ, and FL actually opened 2 schools FSU and a satellite campus of the university of miami in boca raton at florida atlantic university and nova has increased enrollement past capacity.

the majority of the states can't afford the schools. i would not worry about it...either way as long as you go to an established school with plenty of money reserves a slump in admissions will not affect it.

[pruritis_ani]

it is extremely expensive to open a med school in the states...you can't just buy a trailer and call it st. anything. the states with a lot of people and resources can and have started to expand, NY, NJ, and FL actually opened 2 schools FSU and a satellite campus of the university of miami in boca raton at florida atlantic university and nova has increased enrollement past capacity.

the majority of the states can't afford the schools. i would not worry about it...either way as long as you go to an established school with plenty of money reserves a slump in admissions will not affect it.

Carilion Clinic in Roanoke VA just announced the opening of a new med school, first class in 2008. And, this is in a relatively small state that already has 4 med schools.

These things are happening....

I think that this should be a concern for the low tier schools. With more US grads and DO's to compete against, likely the well established offshore schools will be picking up most of the spots. The little schools will likely get squeezed out. Not this year, maybe, but certainly in increasing amounts in the future.

[drjohnwebb]

Well... get in and get out of school now...

There may be a few new schools, but most Existing US schools aren't planning on uping their enrollment anytime soon (3-5 years).

Either foreign schools will go down hill or they will have to fund more residency programs..

[swimguy23]

ok someone needs to point this out


if more US schools are opening, dont you think a lot of us that were borderline applicants or waitlisted would then be accepted? Whats the panic people? I wish a new med school would have opened when i was applying bc i probably wouldnt have been waitlisted there

[pruritis_ani]

ok someone needs to point this out


if more US schools are opening, dont you think a lot of us that were borderline applicants or waitlisted would then be accepted? Whats the panic people? I wish a new med school would have opened when i was applying bc i probably wouldnt have been waitlisted there


Yep, agreed. But, that would leave more open seats in the offshore schools, which will likely get filled by somebody....then, those are the folks that need to worry.

And, if the schools do not find folks to fill the seats, the smaller ones may close. That could make things very rough for grads out in the world that need credentials verified, and have to try to explain how they graduated from a school that no longer exists.

[AUCMD2006]

Carilion Clinic in Roanoke VA just announced the opening of a new med school, first class in 2008. And, this is in a relatively small state that already has 4 med schools.

These things are happening....

I think that this should be a concern for the low tier schools. With more US grads and DO's to compete against, likely the well established offshore schools will be picking up most of the spots. The little schools will likely get squeezed out. Not this year, maybe, but certainly in increasing amounts in the future.


thats right in collaboration with virginia tech. you just proved my point though, virginia is a small state with med schools already in it but it also has a good population base as well as a hop away from the east coast. what about the dakotas, montana, alaska, and the 30 other states that can't do it.

either way the schools with a long reputation will not suffer...

[Runzhouse]

Here is an SDN link to the new schools and the relative dates they will be opening...do not take this information to heart because the source is not exactly fullproof (SDN Post) but it might give some of you a better idea

New med school list - Student Doctor Network Forums (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=277016&highlight=schools+opening)

[nattynig1]

Well, what I wanna know is how come everyone is of the impression that DO's cannot do anesthesiology or pain? Arent there anesthesiology DO residencies? For me I know pain is where I wanna go. So I am torn between Canadain MD schools and DO schools. For DO I would have to wait 1 yr to get in. Maybe Sept'08. For Canadian school may be 2 since I have to be landed there first. Anyone have any ideas?

[DOCplucinski]

Well, what I wanna know is how come everyone is of the impression that DO's cannot do anesthesiology or pain? Arent there anesthesiology DO residencies? For me I know pain is where I wanna go. So I am torn between Canadain MD schools and DO schools. For DO I would have to wait 1 yr to get in. Maybe Sept'08. For Canadian school may be 2 since I have to be landed there first. Anyone have any ideas?

What I don't understand is, why are you considering a Canadian MD. I've heard it is touger to get into med school in Canada than the US. If you have the stats to get in, why would you even consider a DO?

[MYMD]

4) OMM and such. Some of it I believe is valid, some of it is far fetched and gives our profession a bad name. At this point we can't pick and choose what we learn. The best we can do is pick and choose what we use in practice. For any premeds or MD students who rip on OMM, I'll wager a day's pay (which is $0 for me) they didn't even bother to read about the theories behind some of the more rationally based manipulations. Their friend told them it's **, so they automatically adopt that opinion. Doesn't sound like someone who can think for themself, does it? Read some of the principles on counterstrain techniques, pick up a good medical physiology text, and then present to a DO your reasons as to why you disagree with the validity of the technique. That's the way a rational scientific minded person would act, rather than going on a message board and screaming "it's all crap" over and over with nothing to back it up. As far as courseload is concerned, I don't know how many hours other schools spend covering biochem. All I know is we go through the chapters in Lippencott without skipping any. Yes, we memorized all the enzymes and intermediate products in the Krebs cycle, glycolysis, protein metabolism, etc. From my experience and what I've heard in the past, biochem isn't stressed as much on the COMLEX as the USMLE. Biostats is virtually nonexistant on the COMLEX if my memory serves me correctly.

OK but I think to do well in a DO program you have to believe in the philosophy and I do not with OMM, I really do not think Physical manipulation cures anything, I do not care about the documentation, I would bet my day's pay it was researched by pro OMM people. and just because people "Feel Better" well you can give a sugar pill and that will happen any 9th grader knows that.....................


Oh and it seems it's ok for you to have an opinion DO is the way to go but for some of us that do not want to go DO then we are closed minded, way to go................................................

[pruritis_ani]

OK but I think to do well in a DO program you have to believe in the philosophy and I do not with OMM, I really do not think Physical manipulation cures anything, I do not care about the documentation, I would bet my day's pay it was researched by pro OMM people. and just because people "Feel Better" well you can give a sugar pill and that will happen any 9th grader knows that.....................


Oh and it seems it's ok for you to have an opinion DO is the way to go but for some of us that do not want to go DO then we are closed minded, way to go................................................

Just an FYI...I work with DO co-residents and tons of DO students rotate with us. I have met a grand total of 1 that even plans to use OMM in practice. So, no, it is absolutely NOT important for you to subscribe to this philosophy to do well.

I do not think anybody who chooses to NOT go DO is close minded. However, if you think there is some actual tangible benefit to the offshore schools when compared to DO, I think there is a defect in logic. And, when people go so far as to imply that they are likely to do as well as a DO graduate (or be as competitive for any specialty) from an offshore school that is outside of the big 4...well, that is frankly stupid.

[AUCMD2006]

OK but I think to do well in a DO program you have to believe in the philosophy and I do not with OMM, I really do not think Physical manipulation cures anything, I do not care about the documentation, I would bet my day's pay it was researched by pro OMM people. and just because people "Feel Better" well you can give a sugar pill and that will happen any 9th grader knows that.....................


Oh and it seems it's ok for you to have an opinion DO is the way to go but for some of us that do not want to go DO then we are closed minded, way to go................................................


who do you think conducts clinical trials? drug companies and some of their data is questionable. OMM works for musculoskeletal problems nothing more but most insurancew companies will not reimburse for it because chiros get much less for essentially the same thing so not may DOs actually practice OMM besides of you wanted to pop backs you'd have gone to chiro school

[MYMD]

who do you think conducts clinical trials? drug companies and some of their data is questionable. OMM works for musculoskeletal problems nothing more but most insurancew companies will not reimburse for it because chiros get much less for essentially the same thing so not may DOs actually practice OMM besides of you wanted to pop backs you'd have gone to chiro school


Yeah I know about the backs but there are other claims about cures for other ailments and I just do not buy into it. Also there has been some stories on Broken necks, no I'm not in the least way trying to bash just point out some things.

I do not know why some other posters have to follow me everywhere and post how inferior I am because they do not like my school................I happen to know they did not go to US school as well.

[MYMD]

Just an FYI...I work with DO co-residents and tons of DO students rotate with us. I have met a grand total of 1 that even plans to use OMM in practice. So, no, it is absolutely NOT important for you to subscribe to this philosophy to do well.............


Look I do not care this is opinion, there are hundreds of DO's and they do take OMM seriously or they would not teach it and test on it. That is factual a lot more then I now these few People, also it matters in a DO residency. It does not matter in an MD residency. I like facts not anecdotal.

As far as people doing well from a Caribbean school, there is a SGU grad who posts here (Stephew) who has done very well a lot better than a lot of DO grads, there is another I know of right away, they are the head of the Emory Pain clinic, seems to be very good to me better then some DO, there are more success stories these are my favorites for now.......... not that something is better but it may be just as good....................it all depends on the people I think.

[pruritis_ani]

Look I do not care this is opinion, there are hundreds of DO's and they do take OMM seriously or they would not teach it and test on it. That is factual a lot more then I now these few People, also it matters in a DO residency. It does not matter in an MD residency. I like facts not anecdotal.

As far as people doing well from a Caribbean school, there is a SGU grad who posts here (Stephew) who has done very well a lot better than a lot of DO grads, there is another I know of right away, they are the head of the Emory Pain clinic, seems to be very good to me better then some DO, there are more success stories these are my favorites for now.......... not that something is better but it may be just as good....................it all depends on the people I think.


HAHAHHaa!

You post "I like facts, not anecdotals"....but, you are the same guy who just a few posts back said that you DO NOT like the scientific data that supports some aspecst of OMM (facts, data), and then you use your anecdotal evidence (stephew and a single Emory pain example) to support your position!

The fact is the VAST majority of DO (in DO residency or allopathic) do not practice OMM. The fact is, every year, in every competitive specialty, more DOs match than IMGs (when you include DO residency positions). The fact is OMM is established via medical literature to have some positive effect on some musculoskeletal diagnoses.

What you don't like is your feeling (anecdotal) that a DO has a greater stigma than an IMG. What you don't like is your feeling (anecdotal) that DO is like chiro. While I am a great fan of you having your opinion, I am not a great fan of you trying to use your poor logic (and less than clear understanding of words like anecdotal and fact) to talk smack about a profession that you very obviously have limited understanding of.

I don't mind you basing your opinion on ignorance, I think that is fine. But, if you try to use that ignorance to convince somebody of your position, well I am going to have to expose it.

[stephew]

as fascinating as your intellectual debate is, please keep in mind the terms of use.

[sylvian291]

OK but I think to do well in a DO program you have to believe in the philosophy and I do not with OMM,

OMM is NOT a philosophy. It's a tool that is based on a so-called unique philosophy that claims to "treat the patient as a whole rather than a disease." That's like saying prescribing medications is the allopathic philosophy. Clearly it isn't a philosophy. It's a small component of medicine based on the allopathic and osteopathic philosophy. Are you saying you don't agree that a patient should be treated rather than a disease? Are you all for prescribing a drug and leaving the room - patient visit over? Both allopathic and osteopathic pathways have the same philosophy nowadays. The big uproar is created because allopathic physicians are just as patient orientated as osteopathic physicians, and that is why the allopathic world takes exception when DOs say "well we treat patients with a more hands-on approach." It's all **. There are allopathic and osteopathic physicians with great bedside manners, and there are alloathic and osteopathic physicians with poor bedside manners who will be in and out of a patient visit in 90 seconds with a prescription.


[/quote]
I really do not think Physical manipulation cures anything, [/quote]

More misinformation on your part. Nobody claims OMM "cures" anything, and if anyone does say that then they're full of it and giving DOs a bad name. The entire explanation behind OMM is that it allows the body to heal itself. OMM in itself does not cure anything. Let's say you suffer whiplash in a car accident and your SCM spasms and tightens up. Upon palpation you note tenderness, edema, and tightness. After radioimaging to make sure there is no cervical damage, you can either take muscle relaxants and wait for the SCM to loosen up on its own, or use OMM. OMM doesn't cure cancer, doesn't do anything for metabolic diseases and doesn't help you get over the flu any faster than taking a short jog once a day.


[/quote]I do not care about the documentation, I would bet my day's pay it was researched by pro OMM people. and just because people "Feel Better" well you can give a sugar pill and that will happen any 9th grader knows that..................... [/quote]

Of course you don't care about documentation that proves your misinformed theories wrong. Obviously OMM is going to be researched by "OMM people" as you put it. People don't waste time and money strictly to try to prove others wrong in the real world. Don't drug companies conduct their own research as well? I'd call that prodrug (no pun intended).


[/quote]Oh and it seems it's ok for you to have an opinion DO is the way to go but for some of us that do not want to go DO then we are closed minded, way to go................................................[/quote]

You're entitled to your opinion. But you're spreading wrong information on a field you've proven to know very little about.

[sylvian291]

Look I do not care this is opinion, there are hundreds of DO's and they do take OMM seriously or they would not teach it and test on it. That is factual a lot more then I now these few People, also it matters in a DO residency. It does not matter in an MD residency. I like facts not anecdotal.

Wrong again. Boy, you're just loaded with misinformation, eh? You think there are hundreds of DOs? There are over 40,000 DOs practicing medicine throughout the US right now. According to a study presented by a DO/PhD/MPH at a certain osteopathic school, 56% of osteopathic students reported practicing OMM regularly during their first two years (I'm assuming this means on family/friends/outside of school since we all had to use it during school), and after those first two years, only 7% of students continued to use it in rotations in the hospitals. I'd be more than happy to provide you with links to these studies if you'd like. The number that is floating around is that something like 5-10% of all DOs use OMM in their practice today, but don't quote me on that because I can't remember where I read it but I'm sure if you do a search you'll see that very few DOs in practice actually use OMM, especially those of the younger generation. I can guarantee you that 99.9% of DO surgeons, dermatologists, pathologists, OB/GYN, anastesiologists, rads, psychiatrists, and ophthamologists don't use OMM.


[/quote] As far as people doing well from a Caribbean school, there is a SGU grad who posts here (Stephew) who has done very well a lot better than a lot of DO grads, there is another I know of right away, they are the head of the Emory Pain clinic, seems to be very good to me better then some DO, there are more success stories these are my favorites for now.......... not that something is better but it may be just as good....................it all depends on the people I think.[/quote]

Stephew has done "very well a lot better" than a lot of foreign grads too. What's your point? I can't believe you threw 2 examples of good matches out there and are using that as your "factual" conclusion that it's "better than some DO." (your exact words above) I don't have immediate access to other Osteopathic school match lists right now, but in the last few years my school had matches at Cleveland Clinic, Brighams, and Yale-New Haven Hospital just to name a few. That means nothing and has nothing to do with the school itself. They were smart people. Yes - these are all MD residencies, and yes, this is in addition to all the osteopathic derm, ortho, blah blah blah residencies. Somehow I have a feeling you didn't bother checking into all this information, including DO match lists, because you already have your "factually" based opinions in your head. As I've said in a previous post, a few MD residencies will look down on foreign MDs, and a few MD residencies will look down on DOs. The only reason why a DO would have any advantage is because of their selection of osteopathic residencies.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want, but you've been greatly misinformed when it comes to your knowledge on DOs.

[MYMD]

Wrong again. Boy, you're just loaded with misinformation, eh? You think there are hundreds of DOs? There are over 40,000 DOs practicing medicine throughout the US right now. According to a study presented by a DO/PhD/MPH at a certain osteopathic school, 56% of osteopathic students reported practicing OMM regularly during their first two years (I'm assuming this means on family/friends/outside of school since we all had to use it during school), and after those first two years, only 7% of students continued to use it in rotations in the hospitals.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want, but you've been greatly misinformed when it comes to your knowledge on DOs.

You clearly have a BIG chip on your shoulder, you have to feel superior when you post thats clear.

SO DO's do not have a Different practice Philosophy then MD's? Huh then why the COMLEX why the different residencies, residencies MD students cannot match in, HUH I deal with facts not Opinions posted as facts and I reserve not to insult people but thats me and this was you......................

I said hundreds as matter of speak, boy do I have to (edited for possible TOS). YOU believe all the DO propaganda they print HUH? I do not, I question everything and look for both sides. (BTW way you said there are not hundreds but 7% of 40,000 is just a few (2800) so you made my point for me, and that figure may even be a lot larger then the Data suggests, it could just be based on a small sample and not as accurate as it seems?)

[MYMD]

Of course you are right I see DO students going crazy on Caribbean students all the time on SDN the DO haven, "Why did you ever go to the Caribbean" is the favorite song on SDN. Bias and prejudice, stuff like "If you cannot get into a US med school then you should not be a Doctor" So yeah I know how superior DO students think they are to any Caribbean Student.

I should have never expected a good debate without insults form a DO student or Resident.......................................... ......I'm a Caribbean student, a MD student what some DO students wanted more then anything to be an MD and went to DO because they couldn't get accepted into MD schools.......................OH well MD will be behind my name.

[stephew]

now you've heard the worst reasons to feel smug about going to DO school or getting an MD.

[pruritis_ani]

OH well MD will be behind my name.

Well, maybe. I am not convinced yet, you aren't even done with basic science. Don't forget about that attrition rate!

Also, don't forget that with your degree you will NOT be able to call yourself MD in all of the states. You will have, at best, and assuming you pass the exams, a very regional MD.

I don't think you are in any position to gloat about a degree. It gives me the giggles, in fact. I person with a less than accurate grasp of what a DO is, not to mention what some big words like anecdotal and factual mean, is attempting to gloat about a degree he doesn't even have, that will come from St James...that is classic.

[MYMD]

Well, maybe. I am not convinced yet, you aren't even done with basic science. Don't forget about that attrition rate!

Also, don't forget that with your degree you will NOT be able to call yourself MD in all of the states. You will have, at best, and assuming you pass the exams, a very regional MD.

I don't think you are in any position to gloat about a degree. It gives me the giggles, in fact. I person with a less than accurate grasp of what a DO is, not to mention what some big words like anecdotal and factual mean, is attempting to gloat about a degree he doesn't even have, that will come from St James...that is classic.
If you are licensed in a US state you can call yourself an MD you are 100% wrong, MD's in the USA do not hold a license in every state of the USA this is the worst post I have ever seen, YOU ARE NOT A US GRAD TOO I know cause I have read your posts. Oh yeah I have 2 months and its pretty safe to say I'll pass I work my tail off.


BTW I do not claim to be an expert on DO but I do have a grasp of who and what they are, you on the other hand are not an expert either, in fact you seem to have nothing better then to follow certain people and bait them, good job. I see you did not go to a US school too, why ?


Puritis why don't you play nice? Putting others down make you feel good?

Your an FMG too............................................

[MYMD]

now you've heard the worst reasons to feel smug about going to DO school or getting an MD.

I'm not the smug one just tired of the some of the other posters who think they know it all. Someone has to answer to their smugness sometimes.:rolleyes:

[pruritis_ani]

If you are licensed in a US state you can call yourself an MD you are 100% wrong, MD's in the USA do not hold a license in every state of the USA this is the worst post I have ever seen, YOU ARE NOT A US GRAD TOO I know cause I have read your posts. Oh yeah I have 2 months and its pretty safe to say I'll pass I work my tail off.

Passing at St James is one thing. Passing steps 1 and 2 are another thing entirely. Good luck, you may get there, but I would hold off on the gloating.

I have never claimed I am a US grad. I am a proud IMG, and I have done well. I am certainly in a better position than and St James grad is, so, there is a difference between schools. Mine (and several others) are higher up than yours.

BTW I do not claim to be an expert on DO but I do have a grasp of who and what they are, you on the other hand are not an expert either, in fact you seem to have nothing better then to follow certain people and bait them, good job. I see you did not go to a US school too, why ?

It is very clear you do not have a grasp of what a DO is. I don't follow anybody around. However, if certain members have a habit of posting nonsense or misinformation, I will correct them. Sorry if you think I am following you around, but I really could care less about you. But, you have a lot of posts that are poorly thought out, and I like to fix that. You could do it for me, and save us both some time....

Puritis why don't you play nice? Putting others down make you feel good?

Your an FMG too............................................

Yeah, I am an FMG....but, again, "too"? You are not an FMG yet. I don't mind playing nice, but I am not going to coddle anyone that continues to post nonsense.

Good luck to you. But, I will continue to post rebuttals to your nonsense, if you keep posting it.

[MYMD]

Good luck to you. But, I will continue to post rebuttals to your nonsense, if you keep posting it.

How is posting Opinions Nonsense? Opinions are not factual all the time, I did not claim facts on every post. Debate is not always about you being right, and I like to learn new information, but you seem to think that is the wrong approach.

[pruritis_ani]

If you are licensed in a US state you can call yourself an MD you are 100% wrong, MD's in the USA do not hold a license in every state of the USA this is the worst post I have ever seen..........

Well, try to go to Ca and call yourself an MD after you graduate from St James. It is against the law.

[MYMD]

Well, try to go to Ca and call yourself an MD after you graduate from St James. It is against the law.

It is not while visiting, Practicing is against the law.

SO at a conference in California a Doc from Maryland cannot be called Doctor at the Conference because he is not Licensed in California? Really you want us to believe they give a disclaimer at the conference that unless Licensed in Cali the Dr. have to be called MR and MRS or MS ? WOW funny.

Honestly thats all I was talking about not practicing, infact thats what I said visiting...........................


(ALso to add, I do know I have the step one to contend with and do not pretend it's easy, I'm concerned and will study my tail off for it, at my age doing well is a must. I do not take any of this lightly Puritis.)

[sheikh1]

DO is for what!!!!!!!!!!!!

[swimguy23]

you two want a room?

[sylvian291]

You clearly have a BIG chip on your shoulder, you have to feel superior when you post thats clear.

What makes you think I have to feel superior when I post? I never insulted you. All I did was clear up some misconceptions that you had about DOs and OMM.

[/quote] SO DO's do not have a Different practice Philosophy then MD's? Huh then why the COMLEX why the different residencies, residencies MD students cannot match in, HUH I deal with facts not Opinions posted as facts and I reserve not to insult people but thats me and this was you...................... [/quote]

Again, show me one time where I called you a name. I never insulted you. All I did was correct some false information you posted. Current osteopathic practice stemmed from a philosophy much different than what it is today. Again, a little research would do you a world of good. In the late 1800's, Andrew Taylor Still's (an MD) family members came down with meningitis. Back then there were a ton of potentially toxic and harmful drugs used to treat a large variety of illnesses, some of which were unaffected by the drugs, yet people did not understand the concept of "self-limiting" diseases, much like society today and antibiotics. Still felt that the treatments given to them did more harm then good and this is how osteopathic manipulative medicine came about. Granted, some of his treatments were far fetched, but they also caused less harm than literally poisoning someone with the drugs they had available at the time. He developed a strong following of patients looking for less harmful treatments. Fast forward 100 years - allopathic medicine doesn't involve the use of arsenic, antimony, or strychnine anymore, yet there are still some potentially dangerous but usefull drugs being used (opioids for example), and osteopathic medicine doesn't depend solely on manipulation to heal a patient, but uses pharmacological therapies as well. The two philosophies have merged. Imagine if you as an allopathic physician gave someone a dose of strychnine to treat a common cold? Imagine if I as an osteopathic physician treated someone with a staph infection with OMM? We'd both be looking at lawsuits up the wazoo. On to your next question, the only thing stopping a combined match is some of the irrational higher-ups of the AOA who still insist that DOs take a more patient oriented or hands-on approach. If my memory serves me correctly, the COMLEX didn't have any biostatistics on it and of course contained questions on OMM. That was the only thing that made it different from the USMLE. So there you have it. A lot has changed in the past century and this is where the allopathic profession got the nickname "pill pushers." They'd throw medications around, not knowing what they did or if they'd work. Obviously this is not the case any more.



[/quote] I said hundreds as matter of speak, boy do I have to explain everything to you? [/quote]

There is a huge difference between saying there are 900 DOs in the country vs. there are 40,000 DOs in the country.

[/quote] YOU believe all the DO propaganda they print HUH? I do not, I question everything and look for both sides. [/quote]

lol where are you getting all of this from? Myself as well as the majority of the recent graduating DOs don't believe any propaganda and we all support a combined match. If we believed propaganda we'd still be using OMM to treat meningitis. I promise you there isn't a single DO in practice that hasn't prescribed antibiotics for someone diagnosed with bacterial meningitis. It's the old farts in charge of the AOA who are insisting DOs are so much better than MDs but we're fighting that by not supporting the AOA and matching in allopathic residencies instead. They're slowly getting the message, but the civil war is far from over. As far as you looking for both sides, you still don't seem to understand that you have some serious misconceptions about DOs. If you feel I've lied about anything here, please let me know and I'll provide you with sources. I repeat, if you think I'm making any of this up, tell me which part you don't believe and I will provide you with sources.


[/quote] (BTW way you said there are not hundreds but 7% of 40,000 is just a few (2800) so you made my point for me, and that figure may even be a lot larger then the Data suggests, it could just be based on a small sample and not as accurate as it seems?)[/quote]

What are you talking about? Let's try this again:

There are over 40,000 practicing DOs (Gevitz 2004).

Then I quoted you a separate study conducted at a certain osteopathic school two years ago that stated:

56% of students practice OMM regularly during the first two years,

7% of students practice OMM from the 3rd year rotations and thereafter.

You said there are 100's of DOs. That's plain, flat out wrong. I'm not sure what else you're trying to get at.

[sylvian291]

Of course you are right I see DO students going crazy on Caribbean students all the time on SDN the DO haven, "Why did you ever go to the Caribbean" is the favorite song on SDN. Bias and prejudice, stuff like "If you cannot get into a US med school then you should not be a Doctor" So yeah I know how superior DO students think they are to any Caribbean Student.

Reading SDN is the biggest mistake anyone can make. It's made up of a bunch of know-it-all premeds who think they're qualified to give advice. I actually saw a thread there once where they were comparing who had more impressive volunteer activities. The fact that you're associating SDN with the real world is actually quite worrisome.



[/quote]I should have never expected a good debate without insults form a DO student or Resident.......................................... ......I'm a Caribbean student, a MD student what some DO students wanted more then anything to be an MD and went to DO because they couldn't get accepted into MD schools.......................OH well MD will be behind my name.[/quote]

Show me one time where I've insulted you. I have no clue what you're talking about. And this isn't a debate. I'm simply stating facts (with sources) about the field of medicine I went into. I'm sorry if you had some misconceptions about the profession.

I could tell you I got into Harvard medical School (but I didn't) and it would mean nothing because this is the internet. You might be the president of the United States for all I know. But for the record, being near my fiancee and hospital rotations in 3rd year were the most important factors when I decided DO over MD. The two letters following my name played little to no role in my decision. If that's a priority to someone else, that's their preroggitive (sp?).

[swimguy23]

being near my fiancee and hospital rotations in 3rd year were the most important factors when I decided DO over MD. The two letters following my name played little to no role in my decision. If that's a priority to someone else, that's their preroggitive (sp?).
good case closed, lets move on

/thread

[stephew]

ok girls and boys heres how it works. you all review your posts for violations of tos. and edit any. if not you get a warning. No further requests.

[MYMD]

To sylvian291 (http://www.valuemd.com/members/sylvian291.html):

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by sylvian291 http://www.valuemd.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.valuemd.com/osteopathic-medicine-d-o/127660-truth-about-dos-do-post556631.html#post556631)
Wrong again. Boy, you're just loaded with misinformation, eh? You think there are hundreds of DOs? There are over 40,000 DOs practicing medicine throughout the US right now. According to a study presented by a DO/PhD/MPH at a certain osteopathic school, 56% of osteopathic students reported practicing OMM regularly during their first two years (I'm assuming this means on family/friends/outside of school since we all had to use it during school), and after those first two years, only 7% of students continued to use it in rotations in the hospitals.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want, but you've been greatly misinformed when it comes to your knowledge on DOs.
You started here by saying I was wrong, I had said:

Look I do not care this is opinion, there are hundreds of DO's and they do take OMM seriously or they would not teach it and test on it. That is factual a lot more then I now these few People, also it matters in a DO residency. It does not matter in an MD residency. I like facts not anecdotal.This is exactly what I posted so I worded it wrong I know there thousands but what does that have to do OMM? I was making the point that you have to learn it in the program and are tested on it so to do well you have to learn it. Thats the reason of the statement, sure you can nit pick at what I say but as I said you are insulting me.


You say that OMM is not important but then say this to support

OMM is NOT a philosophy. It's a tool that is based on a so-called unique philosophy that claims to "treat the patient as a whole rather than a disease." That's like saying prescribing medications is the allopathic philosophy. Clearly it isn't a philosophy. It's a small component of medicine based on the allopathic and osteopathic philosophy. Are you saying you don't agree that a patient should be treated rather than a disease? Are you all for prescribing a drug and leaving the room - patient visit over? Both allopathic and osteopathic pathways have the same philosophy nowadays.No Allopathy will not do a "rib lift" for a patient to feel better, how are the two exactly the same? You again insult me for not agreeing DO and MD are the same philosophy, I can believe in treating the whole patient without doing all things by a DO method. Different approaches and treatments.

And you are right I do not know enough about OMM to comment a lot, thats because I'm a MD student not a DO student or have been a DC.

I really do not think Physical manipulation cures anything,
More misinformation on your part. Nobody claims OMM "cures" anything, and if anyone does say that then they're full of it and giving DOs a bad name. The entire explanation behind OMM is that it allows the body to heal itself. OMM in itself does not cure anything. Let's say you suffer whiplash in a car accident and your SCM spasms and tightens up. Upon palpation you note tenderness, edema, and tightness. After radioimaging to make sure there is no cervical damage, you can either take muscle relaxants and wait for the SCM to loosen up on its own, or use OMM. OMM doesn't cure cancer, doesn't do anything for metabolic diseases and doesn't help you get over the flu any faster than taking a short jog once a day.And why must you say my opinion is wrong, it's an opinion not something I'm saying as a fact. It is what I believe.

Stephew has done "very well a lot better" than a lot of foreign grads too. What's your point? I can't believe you threw 2 examples of good matches out there and are using that as your "factual" conclusion that it's "better than some DO." (your exact words above) I don't have immediate access to other Osteopathic school match lists right now, but in the last few years my school had matches at Cleveland Clinic, Brighams, and Yale-New Haven Hospital just to name a few.Again insults here, of course I can go on and on about success from the Caribbean, One of the grads from my school for instance matched at Cook County, another matched into Anesthesia, SGU lists is full of decent and excellent matches, yes to name a few at the moment.( I do not have enough time to list the thousands of successful grads) Sure these people did well at the USMLE and I hope to as well but then again I just want FP.

Better than DO if you want to be an MD is what I believe,
why can I not believe that? Many do not want to be a DO for reasons they have, why do many ( And I do not agree with this thought) say DO is second and not first choice? Some say US MD then Caribbean as a "Back UP" yeah I have seen this a lot too. They do not consider DO, yes anecdotal evidence since I do not have numbers to back up this so it is my belief and opinion, Oh my guess you are going to spend time telling me I'm wrong again.

SO DO's do not have a Different practice Philosophy then MD's? Huh then why the COMLEX why the different residencies, residencies MD students cannot match in, HUH I deal with facts not Opinions posted as facts and I reserve not to insult people but thats me and this was you......................

I said hundreds as matter of speak, boy do I have to (edited due to possible TOS)? YOU believe all the DO propaganda they print HUH? I do not, I question everything and look for both sides. (BTW way you said there are not hundreds but 7% of 40,000 is just a few (2800) so you made my point for me, and that figure may even be a lot larger then the Data suggests, it could just be based on a small sample and not as accurate as it seems?)Forgive me for not being clear I apologize but I tried to clear it up here and it is ignored.


Basically every post you addressed to me you started off or ended by saying YOUR WRONG, this is no way to post, you should just post a rebuttle, some of the statements are opinions and opinions are not wrong nor right just opinions.

You call OMM a tool, Allopathy does not so there's a difference of opinion.

there is manipulation done as an MD like setting shoulders and bones and other joints but it's different than the whole of OMM if not then tell us but thats my understanding.

I never once posted "Your Wrong" just a rebuttle in what I believe or understand. "Your Wrong" is not right and an insult in some cases.:rolleyes:

[pruritis_ani]

Wow. It is really, really tough to read what you say.

And, it is really clear that you have a hard time understanding what others say.

[stephew]

any attempt to reopen this thread will lead to immediate warning. We are considering warnings to posters on this thread for flaming.