The Truth about DO Vers Caribbean

[MYMD]

Hi I thought it would be nice to learn and post what we know about this I recently looked into some of this and found out a lot things that surprised me:

Caribbean

1. Can get competitative Residencies with good step scores and contacts.
2. STIGMA goes away quickly
3. Can practice anywhere in the world but may be limited in the US to 48 states depending on the school Grad From.
4. Much easier to be accepted too.

DO
1. Can practice in all 50 states only if DO resdency done, if MD residency some states will not Lic the DO.
2. DO stigma the rest of your life, some will not see them as a Doctor
3. Very limited practice around the world so they are most accepted in the USA.
4. Harder to be accepted than Caribbean but easier than US MD schools
5. Must take Comlex and USLME for best choices in Residencies
6. Different and added studies OMM
7. Some DO's want the MD always.

So this is my list, I see the Caribbean now as equal not as a third choice but equal and in some cases superior to DO as a choice, as more Doctors that graduated from the Caribbean become program directors the difficulty of residency acceptance will diminish.

Please I started this thread to learn what you think not to bash so lets have a good time posting and learning here.

:p

[542qwerty]

DOs can get competitive residencies with contacts and good USMLEs as well. Caribbean will still have a stigma among your coworkers, at least initially. It's very common for physicians to ask where their coworker studied at.

[sheikh1]

Carib.....product is an MD, and nobody can take that from......

[MYMD]

DOs can get competitive residencies with contacts and good USMLEs as well. Caribbean will still have a stigma among your coworkers, at least initially. It's very common for physicians to ask where their coworker studied at. DO's are not selected for some residencies though I know I have seen the posts on SDN from DO's themselves, there are "NO DO residencies" If this is not true please prove it but I know some areas of the country this is particularly true. The MD residency will close the door on all 50 state Lic. So how is that good?

As far as where they went to school a 99th percentile Step score outweighs that by a long shot!

[542qwerty]

Is there a list of residencies that do not accept DOs? People post a lot about residencies that don't accept DOs, but I haven't seen the proof. What is the quality of these residencies.

Not only that, you can look at it the other way. There are DO residencies that MDs cannot enter.

[MYMD]

Is there a list of residencies that do not accept DOs? People post a lot about residencies that don't accept DOs, but I haven't seen the proof. What is the quality of these residencies.

Not only that, you can look at it the other way. There are DO residencies that MDs cannot enter. Yes thats true about the DO residencies but MD rarely want a DO residency, They can't qualify for them anyway.

List? There is no real such list for Caribbean grads, just programs that have not accepted them. This is true for DO's

Like I said I do not want to bash but cut through the ** that DO is a better choice from what I'm seeing it is not. The only best choice is US MD after that IMO Caribbean / FMG since you have so many other options open to you. DO really limits the options and when I'm asked I will not say DO is superior to FMG MD at this time.

;)

Please continue I want to see more on DO I still do not know all I should I think, but so far from what I do know it seems to be this way.

BTW I suspect this may draw attention to DO's from other web sites and I welcome their posts I really want to see both opinions / sides thats why I started this, to be open and debate. If civil it could be a great conversation here.

[542qwerty]

If there is no such list, then how are we supposed to know that members on this website are telling the truth--that there are residency programs that accept Carribean MDs but not US DOs? And, what is the quality of these programs that people talk about? It could be MGH or some hospital no one really wants to train at.

[MYMD]

If there is no such list, then how are we supposed to know that members on this website are telling the truth--that there are residency programs that accept Carribean MDs but not US DOs? And, what is the quality of these programs that people talk about? It could be MGH or some hospital no one really wants to train at.
Wheres the list for Caribbean Grads? Is there such a list thats officially put out? I do not know of one? Wheres the List of specialties that Caribbean grads cannot get into? There is no such thing I know of officially, most of what is posted is opinion and based on the past, Some programs do interview Caribbean students but have yet to accept them during the Match. There are programs that have not accpeted DO's into them too, But there are no official list.

So are you saying we should say that Caribbean grads are accepted into all MD residencies because there is no official list and thats true for DO grads too? I do not think this is realistic.:confused:

You see what I see here and at other web sites are postings like there are official lists and rules that do not exist, there are however what has happened and what has been seen in the past but there seems to be no set rules for both except for what I started with in the posting. Myths seem to have been passed around so much that most believe them.

[jameslynton]

Most DO's wind up in ER - Rehab medicine and Family practice. I have not seen in any/many in surgery. Where as if you look at Ross, SGU, AUC and Saba grads they are getting 70% IM/FP and 30% (these are rough estimates ) are getting other than FP/IM and some getting in surgery. There was a great thread on the Saba forum many months ago where they compared Saba and SGU. They had the stat's for both schools - it was most impressive work. IF you survive the island school run and graduate and do well in your clinicals. You may get a good placement...

[MYMD]

I was afraid of the thread getting moved or locked even though it is asking about MD and DO it is in the DO forum where few look.

[jameslynton]

I was afraid of the thread getting moved or locked even though it is asking about MD and DO it is in the DO forum where few look.Well so far there is no name calling, flame wars or SMU cheerleaders or trolls on the thread - so I don't see why it would get locked. I think as long as everyone behaves - maybe some DO types will post. I see nothing wrong with a DO degree. I have been to DO's for sinus infections and so on. I did notice they spent more time with me on average than some MD types and asked good historical questions. So What you have to ask yourself if you are considering both options is what are your long range plans. If you are interested in FP/IM and Rehab and don't plan to go with Doctors without borders. Don't plan to do research and so on - It is a very good choice. The schools are in the US and you can live for 4-5 semester in one place before clinicals.

[gastrdctr]

I am in the position of either going to 2 ofcarib schools and the option of a DO school. Thanks for yopur input. Iguess I will ahve to figure it out for myself. It seems DO school is a sure thing. Schools in the caribbean have high attrition rates, If you work hard enough my guess is those statistics are not relavent to you.

[LastDance]

Wait, so your telling me, that if a DO graduate, does an MD residency, they cannot practice (get a license) in certain states?? That doesn't sound right to me?!?! please explain further or offer some proof...

thanks

[pruritis_ani]

DO's can practice anywhere in the US. Some states require that they get a DO internship year first, though.

The HUGE benefit to DO's is that they have access to all specialties through the DO match, as well as all allopathic residencies.

Those that speak of the "stigma" of DO are pretty ignorant. It is so rare as to be almost non existent. Additionally, nearly every program I interviewed at and spoke with preferred DO's, as they are a known entity. The better offshore schools are certainly just as good as getting you where you need to be, but the lower tier carib schools are not even close.

[MYMD]

DO's can practice anywhere in the US. Some states require that they get a DO internship year first, though.

The HUGE benefit to DO's is that they have access to all specialties through the DO match, as well as all allopathic residencies.

Those that speak of the "stigma" of DO are pretty ignorant. It is so rare as to be almost non existent. Additionally, nearly every program I interviewed at and spoke with preferred DO's, as they are a known entity. The better offshore schools are certainly just as good as getting you where you need to be, but the lower tier carib schools are not even close.

I'm not ignorant but the stigma is there why else would DO's worry about getting MD behind the name, and yes there are patients who notice the "DO", Caribbean grads unless told the Patients see nothing but MD behind the name Hence the DO's have the stigma. :rolleyes: This stigma has little to do with professionals BTW, and DO's have a tough time practicing out of the USA. England still will not accept them, I looked this past week, they are considered Chiropractors there.

Lower tier Carib Schools yeah right believe what you want I have seen some impressive residencies form several so called schools and I've read where the programs see all caribbean as the same but go ahead believe what you want.

[pruritis_ani]

I'm not ignorant but the stigma is there why else would DO's worry about getting MD behind the name, and yes there are patients who notice the "DO", Caribbean grads unless told the Patients see nothing but MD behind the name Hence the DO's have the stigma. :rolleyes: This stigma has little to do with professionals BTW, and DO's have a tough time practicing out of the USA. England still will not accept them, I looked this past week, they are considered Chiropractors there.

Lower tier Carib Schools yeah right believe what you want I have seen some impressive residencies form several so called schools and I've read where the programs see all caribbean as the same but go ahead believe what you want.

Hmmm...I have seen RARE impressive residency matches from low tier schools. However, I have seen far more frequently even lower tier residency programs declining to invite them for interviews. On the other hand, out of every DO class there are several strong residency matches.

The only schools that come close to a DO are the SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba, as far as the carib goes. From those schools you can pretty easily argue equivilency. All other carib schools, well they are far behind.

I think your opinion is based on your perception of the DO. The reality is that DO's do fantastic both at getting residency positions and at getting jobs after residency. And, you are glossing over the fact that DO's have every specialty available to them and only them in the DO match.

Sure, a DO has different letters behind their name. And, sure, some of them would rather trade it for an MD. But, the glaring fact is, and MD from a low tier school is far, far more likely to get you nothing than it is to get you a competitive residency. And, almost every graduating DO gets a residency, and almost every graduating DO resident gets a job.

Remember, only about 50% of IMG's make it through to the match and get spots. And, the vast, vast majority of that 50% are from the more established schools. So, to attempt to claim that you are in better shape than a DO if you come from a school such as St James reeks of ingnorance and shows that you are really, really grasping at straws. Your school needs a licensed grad or two before you can start thinking that your degree is more valuable or less stigmatized than a DO.

[MYMD]

I never said I was better off from SJSM in fact I posted in general for this discussion. I always believe the "Big 4" are the best schools to attend due to the fact of the Cali approval and the possibility of all 50 states for practice.
These schools are also better established and have better facillities.

I'm at SJSM yes you are right but that's my choice I made. I'm going into Rural FP and already have everything lined up for myself with that so at this point for me it doesn't matter just have to focus on studying and passing the USMLE. For others, I Always think the BIG 4 would be better but some cannot get into the Big 4 or have other reasons then yes I think they will have a harder time for some specialties, Not FP or IM at the moment but others sure.
You are right I just want to point out I think it's more the Board scores and the individuals then anything else. I respect DO's I posted as realistic as I could to learn from others, you really didn't post anything new for me. My opinion is still Caribbean beats DO, but for you the Big 4 beats DO if thats what you want me to say. To me its all the same. ( BTW I appreciate you not ragging on me about my school I know it's not the 5th or anything I dont pretend, of course I wonder if the school will keep improving but I will be long gone by then probably since I only have 2 years left.)

[GeorgeMD2B]

Hi I thought it would be nice to learn and post what we know about this I recently looked into some of this and found out a lot things that surprised me:

Caribbean

1. Can get competitative Residencies with good step scores and contacts.
2. STIGMA goes away quickly
3. Can practice anywhere in the world but may be limited in the US to 48 states depending on the school Grad From.
4. Much easier to be accepted too.

DO
1. Can practice in all 50 states only if DO resdency done, if MD residency some states will not Lic the DO.
2. DO stigma the rest of your life, some will not see them as a Doctor
3. Very limited practice around the world so they are most accepted in the USA.
4. Harder to be accepted than Caribbean but easier than US MD schools
5. Must take Comlex and USLME for best choices in Residencies
6. Different and added studies OMM
7. Some DO's want the MD always.

So this is my list, I see the Caribbean now as equal not as a third choice but equal and in some cases superior to DO as a choice, as more Doctors that graduated from the Caribbean become program directors the difficulty of residency acceptance will diminish.

Please I started this thread to learn what you think not to bash so lets have a good time posting and learning here.

:p
Where do you have the data to back this up? I looked at a few ultra prestigious residency programs, I saw a few DOs but not a single Caribbean graduate, the program takes IMGs, the IMGs were from Australian and Irish schools. Like it or not, in the US, the US degree counts more than any degree from a foreign country. DO students get a much higher limit on their federal Stafford loans than students in the Caribbean, Australia, UK, Ireland, etc. The military has a scholarship program that it offers to both US MD and DO students. Anyway why would anyone want to practice medicine outside the US? The only country where doctors earn 200K+ a year is the USA.

[pruritis_ani]

I never said I was better off from SJSM in fact I posted in general for this discussion. I always believe the "Big 4" are the best schools to attend due to the fact of the Cali approval and the possibility of all 50 states for practice.
These schools are also better established and have better facillities.

I'm at SJSM yes you are right but that's my choice I made. I'm going into Rural FP and already have everything lined up for myself with that so at this point for me it doesn't matter just have to focus on studying and passing the USMLE. For others, I Always think the BIG 4 would be better but some cannot get into the Big 4 or have other reasons then yes I think they will have a harder time for some specialties, Not FP or IM at the moment but others sure.
You are right I just want to point out I think it's more the Board scores and the individuals then anything else. I respect DO's I posted as realistic as I could to learn from others, you really didn't post anything new for me. My opinion is still Caribbean beats DO, but for you the Big 4 beats DO if thats what you want me to say. To me its all the same.

Hey, if you really think schools like St James, MUA belize, Spartan, Windsor, St E, etc... beat DO schools, more power to you. You offered zero evidence, however, and the numbers do not support you. Despite your opinion about a stigma, in the real world patients do go to these DO's, and at most they may ask what a DO is.

I am just a fan of evidence over opinion, especially when people come to these forums seeking real advice. I would hate for somebody to gain the mistaken idea (at least based on numbers, regardless of your opinion) that they are just as well off in the lesser known schools. They clearly are NOT.

I always find it amusing, reading these opinion posts. It is usually somebody trying to convince themselves of something using a vague justification (like "stigma") that flys in the face of common sense and the real numbers that are out there.

To everyone else....look at the DATA when deciding what is better. DO's do very, very well. Especially when compared to the low end schools. The better carib schools match up well, but all the rest...chances are poor, at best, to do well.

[swimguy23]

[quote=pruritis_ani;536060]
Remember, only about 50% of IMG's make it through to the match and get spots. And, the vast, vast majority of that 50% are from the more established schools.quote]

Which means if you are in those established schools, you have a much higher chance than 50% of getting a residency position. Also, you fail to mention the number of FMGs that typically prematch and are not included in statistics and falsely elevate the non-match rate

[pruritis_ani]

[quote=pruritis_ani;536060]
Remember, only about 50% of IMG's make it through to the match and get spots. And, the vast, vast majority of that 50% are from the more established schools.quote]

Which means if you are in those established schools, you have a much higher chance than 50% of getting a residency position. Also, you fail to mention the number of FMGs that typically prematch and are not included in statistics and falsely elevate the non-match rate

Yep, there are prematches out there. But, there are certainly not enough to change the match rate into the 70-80% range. That would be a LOT of prematches.

There are some threads in the past about the match numbers, and they are worth reviewing. The general conclusion is that the match numbers are certainly not as nice as we all thought, but they are likely a lot better from the established schools.

The reality is that there are a HUGE number of folks that never make it to the match, and there are a lot that get to the match, and still get no spot. Moral of the story? Increase your chances by doing well, and by going to a school that gives you the most opportunity.

[MYMD]

Hey, if you really think schools like St James, MUA belize, Spartan, Windsor, St E, etc... beat DO schools, more power to you. You offered zero evidence, however, and the numbers do not support you. Despite your opinion about a stigma, in the real world patients do go to these DO's, and at most they may ask what a DO is.

I am just a fan of evidence over opinion, especially when people come to these forums seeking real advice. I would hate for somebody to gain the mistaken idea (at least based on numbers, regardless of your opinion) that they are just as well off in the lesser known schools. They clearly are NOT.

I always find it amusing, reading these opinion posts. It is usually somebody trying to convince themselves of something using a vague justification (like "stigma") that flys in the face of common sense and the real numbers that are out there.

To everyone else....look at the DATA when deciding what is better. DO's do very, very well. Especially when compared to the low end schools. The better carib schools match up well, but all the rest...chances are poor, at best, to do well.

what I posted???????????[quote]I never said I was better off from SJSM in fact I posted in general for this discussion. I always believe the "Big 4" are the best schools to attend due to the fact of the Cali approval and the possibility of all 50 states for practice.
These schools are also better established and have better facillities.

[MYMD]

[quote=pruritis_ani;536060]
Remember, only about 50% of IMG's make it through to the match and get spots. And, the vast, vast majority of that 50% are from the more established schools.quote]
[QUOTE]
Which means if you are in those established schools, you have a much higher chance than 50% of getting a residency position. Also, you fail to mention the number of FMGs that typically prematch and are not included in statistics and falsely elevate the non-match rate
Yes that is true the prematch does happen often a lot more than admitted.

[pruritis_ani]

You did not even read what I posted???????????

I never claimed this????????? Why are you putting a spin? To cause trouble?

I Said Caribbean Schools then BIG 4 Where in the Heck did I post this please show me!

Why do you fight all the time I don't want to. I just did some research and put what I thought out here.

Yeah, I read what you posted. You said carib>DO. I disagreed, and said better carib=DO, lesser carib<DO.

I am not spinning anything. Simply stating that your stigma argument is weak, and that the lesser carib is a far, far worse option than DO. I thought that is what the discussion was about? DO vs carib, right?

BTW, I would be interested in the "research" you did. It looks like you simply posted your opinion, and don't like it when the reality does not match what you want to think. The only information you posted that may have been researched was incomplete and incorrect (about the DO not being able to get licensed if they do an MD residency).

If you don't like people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't be posting topics for discussion. Maybe you belong in the "only post if you agree with me" forum.

[MYMD]

Yeah, I read what you posted. You said carib>DO. I disagreed, and said better carib=DO, lesser carib<DO.

I am not spinning anything. Simply stating that your stigma argument is weak, and that the lesser carib is a far, far worse option than DO. I thought that is what the discussion was about? DO vs carib, right?

BTW, I would be interested in the "research" you did. It looks like you simply posted your opinion, and don't like it when the reality does not match what you want to think. The only information you posted that may have been researched was incomplete and incorrect (about the DO not being able to get licensed if they do an MD residency).

If you don't like people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't be posting topics for discussion. Maybe you belong in the "only post if you agree with me" forum.

How is it not a fact if you are a DO and do MD residency you cannot be Lic in all 50 states? It is always posted that DO is always all 50 it is not it seems in these cases.

There is a thread on SDN right now where DO students are discussing how to get the MD behind their name to bypass the stigma with some recounting how other DO's have done this.

How is it a fact the DO's are not recongised in some countries for practice around he world?

How is it not a fact that Grads from the Big 4 may be able to get better residencies in some cases than DO's?

England considers them Chiropractors.

I found some of this out recently and was asking for discussion on it and you bring the school I attend into it, You are the one with the problem.

I need to scratch that itch I think.:rolleyes:

[what up doc]

I would rather have an MD from the Caribbean than a Do for the sole fact that i want to travel the world and be able to work anywhere in the world i wish!!!

[pruritis_ani]

How is it not a fact if you are a DO and do MD residency you cannot be Lic in all 50 states? It is always posted that DO is always all 50 it is not it seems in these cases.

There is a thread on SDN right now where DO students are discussing how to get the MD behind their name to bypass the stigma with some recounting how other DO's have done this.

The fact is that states that have an osteopathic medical board typically have a requirment for a DO internship year for licensure. The complaints that you are refering to are about this. What this means is that a DO has two choices. They can do a DO internship first, and then go on to an allopathic residency, or they can apply for licensure afterword and ask that their allopathic residency be recognized.

Is this thread on SDN really your source? Is that really as far as you look for information before trying to pass it off as 100% accurate and factual? I hope you do better for your patients, or you may be getting your treatment ideas out of the National Enquirer.

How is it a fact the DO's are not recongised in some countries for practice around he world?

The list of countries that do not recognise DO's is shrinking, and most developed nations DO now recognize them

How is it not a fact that Grads from the Big 4 may be able to get better residencies in some cases than DO's?

This is so vaguely worded as to be laughable. Sure, it is a "fact" that a student from any crappy school "may" be able to get a better spot than a given student from a DO school. Is this likely? NO.

The better schools do a very good job of getting competitive spots, and compare favorably. The carib in general do not. It appeared to me from the title of the thread, and the fact that you initially made no seperation of the better offshore schools from the dicier ones. There clearly is a difference, and all carib schools are not created equal.

England considers them Chiropractors.


I have not researched this myself recently, so I cannot give you a reference (and, unlike you, I do not consider other forum postings research, or valid sources of information unless they have something concrete to refer me to), but I do recall that this was not the case, or that they were changing this situation. I will look into it and get back to you.

I found some of this out recently and was asking for discussion on it and you bring the school I attend into it, You are the one with the problem.

I need to scratch that itch I think.:rolleyes:

I brought the school you attend into it because this thread is obviously a very thinnly vieled attempt at saying all the carib is better than the DO option. You clearly left out a very important fact, and that is that the carib has many levels of schools, from excellent to crappy. And, to make a sweeping generalization that Carib>DO was foolish.

I am merely discussing the topic you wanted to discuss. Sorry you don't like being wrong.

[MYMD]

I did not start this thread about my school but you are determined to hijack it and make it that.

Please stop. If you have a chip on your shoulder do not take it out on me.

I do believe the Caribbean MD is a better option then DO, If you love DO so much then why are you in the Caribbean?

I post facts and you spin them. Where is the evidence that all DO's will do a year residency in a DO then MD residency? Where I want facts as you do.

GO to the GMC in England as I did to find out, nothing about Lic DO's is there.

Then this site: GOsC Home page: General Osteopathic Council - providing for the regulation of the profession of osteopathy. (http://www.osteopathy.org.uk/)

Finally why can I not be independent from the school I go to? Only those who go to your school are good enough to post questions like these / discussions like these? I think you are assuming my intentions and you know what assuming does. :rolleyes: I never mentioned my school till you did nor was it my intention to make any reference to it.

Finally stop trying to draw me into a pointless argument what you posted is a veil attempt to make me upset LOL just stop


It will not change my opinion as of yet I posted facts and one opion based on a SDN thread yes I did. WOW

[pruritis_ani]

No you have a history of always arguing on VMD. I did not start this thread about my school but you are determined to hijack it and make it that.

Please stop. If you have a chip on your shoulder do not take it out on me.

I do believe the Caribbean MD is a better option then DO, If you love DO so much then why are you in the Caribbean?

I post facts and you spin them. Where is the evidence that all DO's will do a year residency in a DO then MD residency? Where I want facts as you do.

GO to the GMC in England as I did to find out nothing about Lic DO's

Then this site: GOsC Home page: General Osteopathic Council - providing for the regulation of the profession of osteopathy. (http://www.osteopathy.org.uk/)

Finally why can I not be independent from the school I go to? Only those who go to your school are good enough to post questions like these / discussions like these? I think you are assuming my intentions and you know what assuming does. :rolleyes: I never mentioned my school till you did nor was it my intention to make any reference to it.

I have a history of always arguing on VMD? Really? So you are a VMD historian now?

The link you provided is absolutely worthless, my friend. That is a link for UK DO's, which are entirely different than US DO's. This, again, shows that you started a topic about which you know very little.

I love the third grade argument "if you love DO so much, then why are you in the carib". Reminds me of grade school, thanks for the nostalgia. But, the fact is I am not in the Carib (remember, I am actually a doctor). Additionally, I NEVER said that DO is better than the carib. I said the better carib schools are certainly as good as DO, but the lesser ones are not even close.

For some questions about licensing, go here: American Osteopathic Association (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=faq_cons#certallopathic)

There are more sources out there, if you care to search.

You have yet to post a fact. You post opinions, masquerading as facts, then back them up with references to forum threads, and a link that has nothing to do with an American DO.

The only reason I got involved in this thread was that I find it insulting for you to attempt to make a blanket statement such as Carib MD is better than DO. The fact is there are schools in the carib whose diplomas are just barely more useful than toilet paper, and for you to attempt to say theser are equivilent to a DO degree is just stupid. The reason I brought your school into this is that you are clearly trying to get in the "I'm better than a DO crowd", when in fact your degree is going to be far, far less valuable, will open far less doors, and will be more stigmatized.

[MYMD]

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I give up with you, you want to draw me into an argument and tell me what my motives are, I could care less about the school I attend I do not sit around with schemes of how to make the school I go to seem better it is what it is, I'm a MS II looking towards clinicals thats all I care about. So I post on my school forum I guess you do not? So what? Everything is not about a particular school some of us think about other things :rolleyes:

[gentlegiant]

Was goin on fellas-

This thread is such a HOT topic that I think it breaks the record for responses in one day. I could be wrong of course but it's pretty much controversial that it sparked a lot of anger. I would like to simply state my take on this DO vs. MD-carib.

I believe that DOs and MDs from the caribbean are the same. The reason I say that is... and please feel free to take notes while you read... because you make the letters after your name mean something to the world. Your personality and hard work in life is the only thing that transfers to success and please understand it's not your school. What you make of your life and the choices you set for yourself is what gets you to places. Remember that there are MDs from the caribbean that are kicking Harvard grad ***** and likewise, grads from DO schools doing the same. Moreover, there are grads from both sectors that are mopping floors at burger king. The fact of the matter is, wherever you are if you put in the effort and committment you'll reach your goal regardless of what anyone says.

Everyone has a valid reason to believe that MD carib are more superior to DOs and the other way around. For instance, me being a foreigner, an MD would make more sense because I would travel back home to work and DOs are nothing back home. On the other hand, an american citizen who has family in the US and never plans on living abroad will benefit more from a DO because frankly speaking there are higher chances to land a good residency.

Therefore, make your pick for your personal reasons for this is never a better option. However, there is a better option FOR YOU. No one knows you but YOU. So this thread will not help you make that decision. Look at your past and what you plan for your future and make the decision based on that. Good luck to all of you and I'm sure everyone of you will be successful physicians no matter what pair of letters you select after your name.

P'z 'n luv,
gG

[MYMD]

I have a history of always arguing on VMD? Really? So you are a VMD historian now?

The link you provided is absolutely worthless, my friend. That is a link for UK DO's, which are entirely different than US DO's. This, again, shows that you started a topic about which you know very little.

I love the third grade argument "if you love DO so much, then why are you in the carib". Reminds me of grade school, thanks for the nostalgia. But, the fact is I am not in the Carib (remember, I am actually a doctor). Additionally, I NEVER said that DO is better than the carib. I said the better carib schools are certainly as good as DO, but the lesser ones are not even close.

For some questions about licensing, go here: American Osteopathic Association (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=faq_cons#certallopathic)

There are more sources out there, if you care to search.

You have yet to post a fact. You post opinions, masquerading as facts, then back them up with references to forum threads, and a link that has nothing to do with an American DO.

The only reason I got involved in this thread was that I find it insulting for you to attempt to make a blanket statement such as Carib MD is better than DO. The fact is there are schools in the carib whose diplomas are just barely more useful than toilet paper, and for you to attempt to say theser are equivilent to a DO degree is just stupid. The reason I brought your school into this is that you are clearly trying to get in the "I'm better than a DO crowd", when in fact your degree is going to be far, far less valuable, will open far less doors, and will be more stigmatized.

My friend I said the GMC says nothing about LIC A DO. Show me where if it does please you go on and on about nothing just to argue, I edited out what I said, I took it back I'm sorry. But you do argue a lot I've read your posts before. many are in this tone.

Funny how my facts as posted are just dismissed by your spin, You are right what does England have to do with the USA nothing can a US DO practice as a DOctor in the UK NO! That was my point. Could a Caribbean MD practice in the UK YES! Plain and simple that is just one fact.
another can a DO that just does a MD residency practice in all 50 states? NO (I have posted this 3 times )
DO some Do's want the MD Yes

I do not have time to keep reposting the facts to you.

You have yet to bring any new knowledge to the discussion except that a DO only has to do 1yr of a DO residency to qualify fr all 50 thanks

[pruritis_ani]

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I give up with you, you want to draw me into an argument and tell me what my motives are, I could care less about the school I attend I do not sit around with schemes of how to make the school I go to seem better it is what it is, I'm a MS II looking towards clinicals thats all I care about. So I post on my school forum I guess you do not? So what? Everything is not about a particular school some of us think about other things :rolleyes:


I have an opinion about your motives, yes. It seemed pretty obvious to me. Do you care to offer another reason for starting this thread? Clearly you think that Carib is better than DO, and by posting this thread it would appear that you had some motive. . If there is another reason, I don't see it, but I would love to hear it.

[swimguy23]

[quote=swimguy23;536076]

Yep, there are prematches out there. But, there are certainly not enough to change the match rate into the 70-80% range. That would be a LOT of prematches.

There are some threads in the past about the match numbers, and they are worth reviewing. The general conclusion is that the match numbers are certainly not as nice as we all thought, but they are likely a lot better from the established schools.

The reality is that there are a HUGE number of folks that never make it to the match, and there are a lot that get to the match, and still get no spot. Moral of the story? Increase your chances by doing well, and by going to a school that gives you the most opportunity.

No offense but you're reading information blindly. Just say the average FMG match rate is 50%.....thats fine. I wont argue that. but that number doesnt mean much when considering the vast number of foreign schools people apply to the match from. Caribbean schools are designed at training US physicians and getting them into the US system. The more established caribbean schools do this greatly.....It is completely feasible that a more established caribbean school would have equivalent match rates to a US DO school. You're arguing a point that hasnt been broken down in the statistics. You'r argument is flawed and not backed up until data is shown on how many CARIBBEAN grads applied for the match, withdrew, prematched and unmatched. Until then you're arguing opinion, which quite frankly no one cares too much about

Also, you're a DO.....great. You went to an alternative school just like all of us. You are no better than us, you chose a different path

[pruritis_ani]

Funny how my facts as posted are just dismissed by your spin, You are right what does England have to do with the USA nothing can a US DO practice as a DOctor in the UK NO! That was my point. Could a Caribbean MD practice in the UK YES! Plain and simple that is just one fact.

Again, this is NOT a fact. I am actually awaiting an email from the GMC with an answer to this. You have NO IDEA if an American DO can practice in the UK. Neither do I. But, I am at least seeking the truth, while you profess to know a FACT, without ANY evidence of it.

This is exactly what I am talking about. NONE of your facts are facts. NONE have been researched. You are information from other forums to deduce "facts".

So far your facts are either wrong (ie the licensability issue), based on other peoples opinions or piss poor research (ie the UK issue), or statements of opinion that do not match the real world (ie the DO stigma).

Again, the point is, DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

[MYMD]

I knew you would give up. Sorry that I didn't do what you hoped, and jump on the thread saying "Yeah, skippy, those DO's sure suck compared to me!". But, typically, people with weak positions run quickly when the discussion does not go their way.

I have an opinion about your motives, yes. It seemed pretty obvious to me. Do you care to offer another reason for starting this thread? Clearly you think that Carib is better than DO, and by posting this thread it would appear that you had some motive. Call me crazy, but I think you are trying to jump on a bandwagon that you did not earn a spot in. If there is another reason, I don't see it, but I would love to hear it.

Simple to learn, why not? I wanted facts I have a few and I want to read more about DO I have on other sites but I want it from a NON DO site.

I think there are draw backs from DO I think the Caribbean gets bad rap at times. No my motivation is not about the school I go to infact I'm sick of it, I'm sick of most of these schools I think they all are nothing but full of politics and such.

I still do not know you must spin spin? What for? I was not trying to do anything but get to the realness of how DO seems not to be superior to YES the BIG 4, I posted that and posted that and you insult my intelligence with what you post my motives are pure but like some of the students I go to school with you assume too much.:rolleyes:

I'm giving up on YOU not the thread.

[MYMD]

Again, this is NOT a fact. I am actually awaiting an email from the GMC with an answer to this. You have NO IDEA if an American DO can practice in the UK. Neither do I. But, I am at least seeking the truth, while you profess to know a FACT, without ANY evidence of it.

This is exactly what I am talking about. NONE of your facts are facts. NONE have been researched. You are lazy, and use information from other forums to deduce "facts".

So far your facts are either wrong (ie the licensability issue), based on other peoples opinions or piss poor research (ie the UK issue), or statements of opinion that do not match the real world (ie the DO stigma).

Again, the point is, DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Please, learn this lesson before clinicals, or you will look a fool in front of people more important than I. DO's speak of the DO stigma so thats a fact how is it not?

There are tons of post about the Stigma so how is it not a fact?

Patients have asked me for years to explain what a DO is and are they a "Real Doctor" Please I did practice for 17 years as an RN in the Real world.

Also I'm not wrong about Lic I made it clear that if they ONLY DO A MD resdency then they could not be lic in all states that is clear,

How do you know I do not have the facts? The eligibility to sit for the plab is clear on the web site. Get your email the association for Osteopaths describes what an Osteopath is in the UK If DO's are not Doctor of Osteopath then what are they? Please do not call me names. again you insult me.

[pruritis_ani]

[quote=pruritis_ani;536081]

No offense but you're reading information blindly. Just say the average FMG match rate is 50%.....thats fine. I wont argue that. but that number doesnt mean much when considering the vast number of foreign schools people apply to the match from. Caribbean schools are designed at training US physicians and getting them into the US system. The more established caribbean schools do this greatly.....It is completely feasible that a more established caribbean school would have equivalent match rates to a US DO school. You're arguing a point that hasnt been broken down in the statistics. You'r argument is flawed and not backed up until data is shown on how many CARIBBEAN grads applied for the match, withdrew, prematched and unmatched. Until then you're arguing opinion, which quite frankly no one cares too much about

Also, you're a DO.....great. You went to an alternative school just like all of us. You are no better than us, you chose a different path

First of all, I am not a DO. Secone of all, I agree that many of the better carib schools have match lists that can approach the DO schools. Third of all, the numbers have been broken down in the past, look up the threads.

The data are difficult to interpret, and there is no clear consensus. But, given the number of students that register for the steps through the ECFMG, and compare them to the number of spots available in the match, and you will be very, very surprised. There are a LOT more people taking the exam than there are spots available. And, that does not even take into consideration those that did not make it to the exam.

The overall chances of making it from day one of an offshore school to a residency are pretty small, on the order of 50%, if not worse. The odds are far, far better at the established schools. Which means the odds are even worse at the low end schools.

Finally, my point is not that carib is better or worse than a DO school. My opinion is that the bettter carib schools compare favorably with the DO schools. But, I also think it is easily demonstrated that the low end carib schools are NOWHERE near the DO's. That is what I take exception to.

[pruritis_ani]

How do you know I do not have the facts? The eligibility to sit for the plab is clear on the web site. Get your email the association for Osteopaths describes what an Osteopath is in the UK If DO's are not Doctor of Osteopath then what are they? Please do not call me names. again you insult me.

Believe me brother, I just pored over the GMC site. If you can show me anywhere on the site that even mentions an American DO, I would love to see it. All I got was an email to contact if you were unsure if the degree met registration requirements. So, I sent them an email.

[swimguy23]

[quote=swimguy23;536129]

First of all, I am not a DO. Secone of all, I agree that many of the better carib schools have match lists that can approach the DO schools. Third of all, the numbers have been broken down in the past, look up the threads.

The data are difficult to interpret, and there is no clear consensus. But, given the number of students that register for the steps through the ECFMG, and compare them to the number of spots available in the match, and you will be very, very surprised. There are a LOT more people taking the exam than there are spots available. And, that does not even take into consideration those that did not make it to the exam.

The overall chances of making it from day one of an offshore school to a residency are pretty small, on the order of 50%, if not worse. The odds are far, far better at the established schools. Which means the odds are even worse at the low end schools.

Finally, my point is not that carib is better or worse than a DO school. My opinion is that the bettter carib schools compare favorably with the DO schools. But, I also think it is easily demonstrated that the low end carib schools are NOWHERE near the DO's. That is what I take exception to.

The data, last I checked did not break FMGs down. It broke down US-IMG etc but that doesnt split up who went caribbean and who went europe, china, etc.....I think you would be very surprised at match rates from the upper carib schools

Looking at the odds of 50% is foolish too bc you are then assuming every single caribbean grad is equal in ability, board scores, clinical evals, etc.....which we both know is far from reality.

[pruritis_ani]

DO's speak of the DO stigma so thats a fact how is it not?

There are tons of post about the Stigma so how is it not a fact?

Hmmm...so, if there are a lot of posts about something, it must be true? Interesting.

If there is a stigma, how would you define it? How would you demonstrate it? I am working in the real world, so I like real world examples. In the real world, DO's do not have a harder time gaining employment. The practices they work in do no suffer a lack of patients....do some people not know what a DO is? Sure. Do some people prefer an MD to a DO? Sure, just like some people prefer a male to a female, or an Ivy league grad to a carib grad. But, to make a broad generalizatin about a stigma implies that it has some effect on the real world, and by saying that the carib MD has less of a "stigma", you are implying that somehow, in the real post-residency world, a carib MD will do better for you than a DO. That, my freind, is non sense. In the US, you will do just fine, and have plenty of patients, and have at least as many opportunities as the carib grads if you are a DO.

Patients have asked me for years to explain what a DO is and are they a "Real Doctor" Please I did practice for 17 years as an RN in the Real world.

People have for years asked me to explain lots of things. What on earth does that have to do with anything? After you explained it did they say "Gee, they are not real doctors!"? Most patients still don't know if they are seeing a DO or MD until they see the name tag. And, at that point, they are already in the clinic!

Also I'm not wrong about Lic I made it clear that if they ONLY DO A MD resdency then they could not be lic in all states that is clear,

Yes, you are wrong. A DO can be licensed if they only do an MD residency, if they become board certified. Or, the Osteopathic board can decide to recognize the internship year as equivilent, which they typically do. So, again, you are wrong, and it has taken about 40 posts before it gets through.

[pruritis_ani]

[quote=pruritis_ani;536138]

The data, last I checked did not break FMGs down. It broke down US-IMG etc but that doesnt split up who went caribbean and who went europe, china, etc.....I think you would be very surprised at match rates from the upper carib schools

Looking at the odds of 50% is foolish too bc you are then assuming every single caribbean grad is equal in ability, board scores, clinical evals, etc.....which we both know is far from reality.

Actually, it does break it down by country. It shows how many ECFMG applicants are from each country. So, for the carib countries, it is pretty easy to figure out exact numbers for each school. As I said before, do a search. Miklos is the member that did an excellent job of breaking down the numbers.

The odds of 50% are important, because it gives a big picture of the fail rate. Of course each of us is an individual, yada yada yada, but that is not what statistics are about. They are about patterns. And, the overall pattern is pretty bleak. What I infer from this pattern is that one should maximize chances.

[Doc2010]

My friend your comments are not accurate again. I said the GMC says nothing about LIC A DO. Show me where if it does please you go on and on about nothing just to argue, I edited out what I said, I took it back I'm sorry. But you do argue a lot I've read your posts before. many are in this tone.

Funny how my facts as posted are just dismissed by your spin, You are right what does England have to do with the USA nothing can a US DO practice as a DOctor in the UK NO! That was my point. Could a Caribbean MD practice in the UK YES! Plain and simple that is just one fact.
another can a DO that just does a MD residency practice in all 50 states? NO (I have posted this 3 times )
DO some Do's want the MD Yes

I do not have time to keep reposting the facts to you.

You have yet to bring any new knowledge to the discussion except that a DO only has to do 1yr of a DO residency to qualify fr all 50 thanks

American Osteopathic Association (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ost_dogoblobal)

I hope this answers your question.

[stephew]

then dont go offshore. many of event he best schools wont get you licensed to practice in many many countries.

I would rather have an MD from the Caribbean than a Do for the sole fact that i want to travel the world and be able to work anywhere in the world i wish!!!

[stephew]

all of you who claim to be giving up on this argument- please do. Flames/insults will not be tolerated.

[stephew]

.

Lower tier Carib Schools yeah right believe what you want I have seen some impressive residencies form several so called schools and I've read where the programs see all caribbean as the same but go ahead believe what you want.
not correct. which school you attend most certainly can and does frequently make a difference.

[PaulyG_Pre-MD]

This argument will never end… Bottom line is there is not a huge population of physicians who actively look to become a DO when they have a 4.0 GPA and a 42 on the MCAT’s.. It is another option that people take so they too can practice medicine….Your only good in medicine if you love it. If my doctor is a DO and he loves it I will be the first to wait in line for his care.

[MYMD]

not correct. which school you attend most certainly can and does frequently make a difference.
Huh? How is it not correct that Students from MUA N AUA or SJSM have been able to get Competitive residencies? They have and have been listed on the schools site and here and I have had Emails from some of these real Docs? As far as making a difference only if the program directors have even heard of the school, the only school most have heard of is SGU and Maybe AUC or Ross a little. Most only know the US schools by heart. I think having Grads from these schools in the programs helps a lot so the newer schools are at a big disadvantage there, but to make it out like it's the end all be all I think is wrong. I think the Step scores are the most important thing. I do not deny that the BIG 4 are a better choice I have posted that to death.

About the other posts:

BTW a WHO listed school, students with an MD can practice just about anywhere in the world, DO's cannot and are clearly limited.

And yes if a stigma is posted for years and brought up by people then that can be evidence it exists, if it didn't then there would be no posts/ no wittings about it right? :rolleyes:

[MYMD]

American Osteopathic Association (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ost_dogoblobal)

I hope this answers your question.


Thank You but this is an interview posted on the site but it seems to agree with what I said:

Currently, D.O.s have full practice rights in 44 countries and partial practice rights in eight countries. D.O.s with partial practice rights have restricted privileges and are not allowed to do things such as perform surgery or prescribe medication—despite the training received at osteopathic medical schools and during internships and residencies.
“Many countries that were or continue to be under British influence adhere to Britain's definition of an osteopath—a non-physician health care practitioner who practices only manipulation. Because of the similarity of the titles, many of these countries refuse to grant U.S.-trained D.O.s practice rights beyond the scope of manipulation,” explained .....
There are still obstacles to practice around the world for DO's. Thats one of my points. Even if there is a claim it will get better, the ones making it are the DO's not the countries involved. I have already had converstaions with students who did not understand what a DO was and now in DO school and they regret going to DO, they really do not like the style and the limitations, this is per them, just like not everyone likes Allopathy philosophy 100% I know I have some reservations.

[MYMD]

On last thing this AM there is no reason to Defend DO's I'm not out to get them LOL Just want the "Cards on the table" For years I have read post after post that DO is way better than Caribbean MD, Now I just do not see yet. Yes I will admit that if you go to one of the more establisihed Schools Like the Big 4 AUC,SGU,Ross or SABA then these would be the schools that may give you an all around better future IMO, this is my opinion, based on what I have seen.

So please post the facts here I do want hard facts proof that DO would have been a much better choice for now I do not regret nor see the big deal.


Also about motives, they are pure, people always think agenda, agenda, my motivation is when asked by PM "Why Caribbean and not DO" I can give a good answer, better than "This was the best for me" I can tell them other things I know. Please leave the school I attend out of it you can see very fast what school I attend it's the forum I post in the most and I have mentioned it only after being pressed to do so.

[LastDance]

my opinion.... you have to compare school to school... you cannot compare ALL Carribbean schools to ALL D.O schools..... you must compare individual school to individual school... thats my first point... the "best" carribbean school might be a better option than the newest D.O school. but if your picking a carrib school other than st. eorge, ross, auc, or saba, and trying to say that that is better than any D.O school, well that is incorrect. Look, if you graduate as a D.O, and simply pass and graduate, you are GUARENTEED a residency SOMEWHERE in SOMETHING. thats not entirely true coming out of even the best carribean school.. its just much harder, you have to do better than everyone else to get the same residnecy... plus all the red tape, worrying if all your rotations are ACGME, etc., bottom line, go D.O.... its safer, and you will have more peace of mind....

[MYMD]

my opinion.... you have to compare school to school... you cannot compare ALL Carribbean schools to ALL D.O schools..... you must compare individual school to individual school... thats my first point... the "best" carribbean school might be a better option than the newest D.O school. but if your picking a carrib school other than st. eorge, ross, auc, or saba, and trying to say that that is better than any D.O school, well that is incorrect. Look, if you graduate as a D.O, and simply pass and graduate, you are GUARENTEED a residency SOMEWHERE in SOMETHING. thats not entirely true coming out of even the best carribean school.. its just much harder, you have to do better than everyone else to get the same residnecy... plus all the red tape, worrying if all your rotations are ACGME, etc., bottom line, go D.O.... its safer, and you will have more peace of mind....

Yep DO's graduate are guaranteed a residency as far as DO residencies in something, but most students want a particular practice and thats where choices come in. But you are right. I just do not buy into the philosophy thats all. So I'm in the right school for me MD.

You make a valid good point. Residencies for FMG are not guaranteed but also are not so hard to get in just anything, most Caribbean grads can get FP.

[swimguy23]

my opinion.... you have to compare school to school... you cannot compare ALL Carribbean schools to ALL D.O schools..... you must compare individual school to individual school... thats my first point... the "best" carribbean school might be a better option than the newest D.O school. but if your picking a carrib school other than st. eorge, ross, auc, or saba, and trying to say that that is better than any D.O school, well that is incorrect. Look, if you graduate as a D.O, and simply pass and graduate, you are GUARENTEED a residency SOMEWHERE in SOMETHING. thats not entirely true coming out of even the best carribean school.. its just much harder, you have to do better than everyone else to get the same residnecy... plus all the red tape, worrying if all your rotations are ACGME, etc., bottom line, go D.O.... its safer, and you will have more peace of mind....

I dont see why that is an incentive to anyone.....unless you are just looking to pass and be a mediocre doctor. I honestly dont believe that if you're a do and just pass youre guaranteed anything.....the only guarantees in life are death and taxes

[LastDance]

the point i was trying to make was, as a D.O you wont have to worry about not matching. every D.O matches somewhere. i'm not sure if carribbean grads can say that. for me thats peace of mind, because med school is expensive...ross and st. george are more than $50,000 a year.. i think st. george costs like $220,000, after its all said and done... and how horrible would it be if a student went through all that, had all this loan money on their head, and couldn't land a residency... that would be horrible... i can bet you a student in that situation would be willing to take anything... as a D.O you wont have that problem, you graduate, you get a residency, no problems....

[POPO]

The only country where doctors earn 200K+ a year is the USA.

Sorry, but this is false.

[swimguy23]

the point i was trying to make was, as a D.O you wont have to worry about not matching. every D.O matches somewhere. i'm not sure if carribbean grads can say that. for me thats peace of mind, because med school is expensive...ross and st. george are more than $50,000 a year.. i think st. george costs like $220,000, after its all said and done... and how horrible would it be if a student went through all that, had all this loan money on their head, and couldn't land a residency... that would be horrible... i can bet you a student in that situation would be willing to take anything... as a D.O you wont have that problem, you graduate, you get a residency, no problems....


so youre saying the DO's match rate is 100%? I have a feeling that's false because even US med schools don't have 100% match rates......what about DO's that apply only to allo residencies, you can not say they get 100% match rates. Sorry but i think you're speaking from antecdotal evidence

[MYMD]

so youre saying the DO's match rate is 100%? I have a feeling that's false because even US med schools don't have 100% match rates......what about DO's that apply only to allo residencies, you can not say they get 100% match rates. Sorry but i think you're speaking from antecdotal evidence
To be fair I think DO's match rate must be very close in the high 90's though.

What is the real Caribbean Match rate? Does anyone really know, from the Hearsay it seems a lot higher than the 50% thrown around.

I think Caribbean grads are different then IMG's because we are mostly Americans and Canadians born and bread and that should give us an advantage over IMG's.

[stephew]

ther eis a lot of "i think" and " i heard" on this thread. The vehemence of a thread is inversely related to the common sence, facts, or consensus on a topic.

[swimguy23]

ther eis a lot of "i think" and " i heard" on this thread. The vehemence of a thread is inversely related to the common sence, facts, or consensus on a topic.

pff steph way to bring the logic into the argument :twisted:

[stephew]

sorry man. don't think I don't realize that logic is totally beside the point here. for many this is all about one-upsmanship and superiority.

[swimguy23]

sorry man. don't think I don't realize that logic is totally beside the point here. for many this is all about one-upsmanship and superiority.

the pissing contests are entertaining tho, you do have to admit

i just liek to point out peoples antecdotal evidence.....

[stephew]

not when you have to moderate them. plus i have an eye to how it appears to the folks in the us- that is, deeply embarrassing. and its depressing to consider the quality of people who really get into it and yet want to be doctors etc. so for me, not so much.the pissing contests are entertaining tho, you do have to admit

i just liek to point out peoples antecdotal evidence.....

[redeye]

not when you have to moderate them. plus i have an eye to how it appears to the folks in the us- that is, deeply embarrassing. and its depressing to consider the quality of people who really get into it and yet want to be doctors etc. so for me, not so much.

This will happen whether people are writing about the RedSox vs. Yankees or PCs vs. Macs. or MD vs. DO.

People cant help but believe that they are right and they want to express it. That is why message boards are popular.

The hard part is keeping everything dignified.

If we were NOT competitive, we would all still be bacteria. (funny thing is that these arguments usually brings out the less evolved nature of a person)

In the end, I would rather get both perspectives from an argument instead of having to rely upon the marketing messages from the Schools.

[stephew]

hmmm ok. bacteria.


If we were NOT competitive, we would all still be bacteria.

[redeye]

hmmm ok. bacteria.

Well, :-), since your a Mod., that would make you a Hydra.

[swimguy23]

not when you have to moderate them. plus i have an eye to how it appears to the folks in the us- that is, deeply embarrassing. and its depressing to consider the quality of people who really get into it and yet want to be doctors etc. so for me, not so much.

Yep, im sure i will see that more as i move into residency next year.....even tho i do see it now also. I think ive worked directly with as many do students as fmgs.....

[germany]

Stick to the facts, folks. The numbers can be found right here:
Carib MD or DO? (http://badbadmedicine.blogspot.com/)

SGU, Ross, Saba > DO > other carib schools.

[542qwerty]

Stick to the facts, folks. The numbers can be found right here:
Carib MD or DO? (http://badbadmedicine.blogspot.com/)

SGU, Ross, Saba > DO > other carib schools.
There is hardly any info there. The website lists only 3 Caribbean match lists and only one DO matchlist. No data on other DO or Caribbean or US allopathic schools.

1. Tiny tiny sample
2. Match lists don't necessarily indicate the quality of the school.

[germany]

1. This thread is a comparison of DO and carib schools. US allo schools are not in question.
2. If you're considering any other carib school than those listed (with the possible exception of AUC), then you're probably in a world of hurt and its unlikely your competitive at a DO school either.

3. The one DO school listed is widely considered to be among the "best" of the DO schools, if such a thing exists. In other words, it only goes downhill from there. I've looked.

4. If you think residency placements are not indicative of quality, then you'll probably also buy into the other hogwash the DO schools will throw your way (cranial sacral, OMM). i

[stephew]

a good DO school can't be ranked and stacked simply against a good offshore school. its a complicated decision.

[stephew]

oooo hydra.
Well, :-), since your a Mod., that would make you a Hydra.

[ak7083]

1. Can get competitative Residencies with good step scores and contacts.

Maybe, maybe not.

2. STIGMA goes away quickly

From co-workers or patients?

Patients do not discriminate for the doc I am planning to shadow. It is pretty much up to the person.

3. Can practice anywhere in the world but may be limited in the US to 48 states depending on the school Grad From.

ok.

4. Much easier to be accepted too.

ok

___

1. Can practice in all 50 states only if DO resdency done, if MD residency some states will not Lic the DO.

Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia require osteopathic physicians to complete an AOA approved internship year to be licensed in those states.

Or follow an allophathic resd.

2. DO stigma the rest of your life, some will not see them as a Doctor


Disagree.

I think I would have a harder time explaining about carrib MD.

I would rather like to say that I went to MSUCOM or CCOM then SGU.

But hey, whatever makes a person happy.

3. Very limited practice around the world so they are most accepted in the USA

I dont care. Stayin in MI.

6. Different and added studies OMM

6 months?

Less paperwork than MDs from carrib.


7. Some DO's want the MD always.

Obviously.:rolleyes:

So this is my list, I see the Caribbean now as equal not as a third choice but equal and in some cases superior to DO as a choice, as more Doctors that graduated from the Caribbean become program directors the difficulty of residency acceptance will diminish.

Whatever tickles your fancy.

The most important thing is:

DO girls are hotter than MD girls too (FMG/USMG)

This is what I think.

and yes...i think there are good carrib schools

Feel free to criticize/diss me.

[wizard17]

DOwn with osteopathy :)

chiropractors + shaky MD wannabes = DOs

DOnt DO the D.O.

[ak7083]

chiropractors + shaky MD wannabes = DOs


Doesnt this equal Chiropractors that are MDs that shake?

[wizard17]

Doesnt this equal Chiropractors that are MDs that shake?

well there have been a number of studies showing that DOs and chiros are much more hands on in the PE than are MDs.

[wizard17]

Doesnt this equal Chiropractors that are MDs that shake?

ive been to a DO school. i know all the ** that comes with being a DO student.

most of it comes from the ancient DOs that have an unquenchable hatred for MDs.....

[ak7083]

Which DO if you dont mind me asking?

If you do mind, then tell me region.

Doesnt this equal Chiropractors that are MDs that shake?

Joking.

[wizard17]

Which DO if you dont mind me asking?



If you do mind, then tell me region.


Joking.


i know you were joking.

ok region, midwest. there are lets see, at least 5 in this midwest area :) unless some mroe have been established recently... which is actually very probable considering the recent growth spuirt....

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Is there a list of residencies that do not accept DOs? People post a lot about residencies that don't accept DOs, but I haven't seen the proof. What is the quality of these residencies.

Not only that, you can look at it the other way. There are DO residencies that MDs cannot enter.

2 things...

You will see how many programs (MD) that will not even send you an interview invitation.

NO MD appies to a DO residency! Why would they??? If you started allopathic...u would stay that way. Of course DO residencies dont accept MD applicants....because they dont apply in the first place unless they are a combined ACGME/AOA residency.

[Doc2010]

2 things...

You will see how many programs (MD) that will not even send you an interview invitation.

NO MD appies to a DO residency! Why would they??? If you started allopathic...u would stay that way. Of course DO residencies dont accept MD applicants....because they dont apply in the first place.

They don't apply because they know that they are not allowed to apply.

[wizard17]

DO residencies claim that since MDs dont learn omm, then they cannot succeed there. even though many never use omm....

there are a number of hospitals that wont accept DOs.... you will learn this when you apply. it is kind of an unwritten rule at those places. they may even interview you, but you wont get accepted, ever.

and the way the DO board of grandmaster gurus rule, the DO and MD divide will grow such that DOs will be more and more obscure. this is the single biggest problem in the DO world... the upper management....

[Doc2010]

AMA recently published article supporting Ending "DO Discrimination". Harvard started teaching OMM. UT Southwestern in TX will soon start offering electives in OMM. The gap between DO and MD is narrowing.

Do whatever is best for you. If you work hard, you will achieve what you are looking for.

[stephew]

harvard teaches all sorts of crap that would get you laughed out of the WHO if you were teaching it from an offshore school. "harvard does it" is a lousy example.

[stephew]

...which is like like saying IMGs are witch doctors.there'a good chance a DO will be your senior resident and if you're smart you'll listen and learn and show respect. interstingly, DOs are far more welcome than offshore IMGs at hopkins. which doesnt make them better, but does a good job of demonstrating the respect you should give your DO colleauges. DOwn with osteopathy :)

chiropractors + shaky MD wannabes = DOs

DOnt DO the D.O.

[stephew]

then its a good idea not to make the bigger mistake of being the IMG with an unquenchable and indefenable condensation towards DOs. That would hypocritical of course, which i know you'd never what to do. And you think there will be no nonsence from Spartan? From any img school? I doubt it as that would be naiveive been to a DO school. i know all the ** that comes with being a DO student.

most of it comes from the ancient DOs that have an unquenchable hatred for MDs.....

[ak7083]

i know you were joking.

ok region, midwest. there are lets see, at least 5 in this midwest area :) unless some mroe have been established recently... which is actually very probable considering the recent growth spuirt....
yeh, MSUCOM is expanding somewhat.

Which do you think is the easiest to get into?

I personally think MSUCOM. But I havent applied yet or anything.

[ak7083]

AMA recently published article supporting Ending "DO Discrimination".

It cant be very bad. They will obv look at allopathic students favorably.
They might look at MDs over DOs unconsiously.

[stephew]

the ama gives a LOT of lipservice. including having an IMG section while they are rather explicitly anti-img.

[Shah_Patel_PT]

the ama gives a LOT of lipservice. including having an IMG section while they are rather explicitly anti-img.


Here is what some desperate MD wannabes did:

Anti-Aging "Gurus" Pay $5,000 Penalties (http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/klatz.html)

[wizard17]

AMA recently published article supporting Ending "DO Discrimination". Harvard started teaching OMM. UT Southwestern in TX will soon start offering electives in OMM. The gap between DO and MD is narrowing.

Do whatever is best for you. If you work hard, you will achieve what you are looking for.

i know all of that. there are other things as well. but again i tell you, as hard as the ama works to bridge the gap, the DO leaders will work towards BUILDING a gap. they WANT there to be a difference, they see the difference as their livelyhood. without it, they are nothing special anymore.

[wizard17]

...which is like like saying IMGs are witch doctors.there'a good chance a DO will be your senior resident and if you're smart you'll listen and learn and show respect. interstingly, DOs are far more welcome than offshore IMGs at hopkins. which doesnt make them better, but does a good job of demonstrating the respect you should give your DO colleauges.

seriously, i have respect for DOs. i do. i do NOT have respect for the leaders of the DO community. they force difference as the cost of the students and the profession. they waste time and money to make strides in promoting prejudice.

[wizard17]

yeh, MSUCOM is expanding somewhat.

Which do you think is the easiest to get into?

I personally think MSUCOM. But I havent applied yet or anything.

the DO school at michigan is supposed to be really good, ive even heard that sometimes it seems the DO school is harder to get into than the MD school, and that often they take the same classes. still, even in their own state at their own residencies, the DO must do an extra year. why? do they state boards think that DOs are not worthy? not at all... it is ONLY THE DO LEADERS SAYING THEY MUST DO THE EXTRA YEAR.... they are so rediculous....

[wizard17]

the ama gives a LOT of lipservice. including having an IMG section while they are rather explicitly anti-img.

hard to be too strongly anti-img when you look out and see 25%+ of your peers in industry are img...

[wizard17]

Here is what some desperate MD wannabes did:

Anti-Aging "Gurus" Pay $5,000 Penalties (http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/klatz.html)

you will find idiots on both sides of the spectrum.....

[stephew]

you overestimate your fellow man.
hard to be too strongly anti-img when you look out and see 25%+ of your peers in industry are img...

[Doc2010]

harvard teaches all sorts of crap that would get you laughed out of the WHO if you were teaching it from an offshore school. "harvard does it" is a lousy example.

They are teaching it because they probably saw something valuable in it.

[stephew]

he he, its a bit more compllciated in that. lets just say just because its innovative doesnt make it good.They are teaching it because they probably saw something valuable in it.

[ak7083]

... they are so rediculous....

indeed.

MSUCOM attend the same lectures as the CHM do.

you overestimate your fellow man.


how overestimated?

[stephew]

people can be anti-anything in spite of evidence of their incompetance to the contrary. (see religon, racisism etc) indeed.

MSUCOM attend the same lectures as the CHM do.



how overestimated?

[542qwerty]

2 things...

You will see how many programs (MD) that will not even send you an interview invitation.

NO MD appies to a DO residency! Why would they??? If you started allopathic...u would stay that way. Of course DO residencies dont accept MD applicants....because they dont apply in the first place unless they are a combined ACGME/AOA residency.
I'm a 1st year... it's still too early to try to predict which programs will send me an interview. MDs may still want to go into DO residencies. What if they don't get into an allopathic residency? DO programs provide a good alternative.

And... if you want to talk about "MD wannabes":
"Chein earned his medical degree from the American University of the Caribbean in 1980, two years after it opened. He made his living in Los Angeles as a doctor in part by testifying as an expert witness in personal injury cases. In 1990, he was convicted of perjury after he recited phony credentials on the stand. (The California Medical Board later went after him for wrongly claiming he was a lawyer, had a medical degree from Cornell University and a specialty in orthopedic surgery.) According to court records, the conviction was overturned on appeal because the lies were immaterial to the case."
A Drug's Promise (or Not) of Youth - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-shots28jul09,0,7977410.story?coll=la-home-magazine)

[wizard17]

I'm a 1st year... it's still too early to try to predict which programs will send me an interview. MDs may still want to go into DO residencies. What if they don't get into an allopathic residency? DO programs provide a good alternative.

And... if you want to talk about "MD wannabes":
"Chein earned his medical degree from the American University of the Caribbean in 1980, two years after it opened. He made his living in Los Angeles as a doctor in part by testifying as an expert witness in personal injury cases. In 1990, he was convicted of perjury after he recited phony credentials on the stand. (The California Medical Board later went after him for wrongly claiming he was a lawyer, had a medical degree from Cornell University and a specialty in orthopedic surgery.) According to court records, the conviction was overturned on appeal because the lies were immaterial to the case."
A Drug's Promise (or Not) of Youth - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-shots28jul09,0,7977410.story?coll=la-home-magazine)

no you are wrong. MDs are NOT ALLOWED in DO residencies. this is FACT. you may see MDs teaching at them, but never as a resident... which again shows you that omm is not always used in every DO residency... sigh... the DO heirarchy is all messed up....

[542qwerty]

no you are wrong. MDs are NOT ALLOWED in DO residencies. this is FACT. you may see MDs teaching at them, but never as a resident... which again shows you that omm is not always used in every DO residency... sigh... the DO heirarchy is all messed up....
When did i say that MDs are allowed to do DO residencies?

[MYMD]

the ama gives a LOT of lipservice. including having an IMG section while they are rather explicitly anti-img.
Yes but it's still the old Guard they only studied 70% of what we study today in medschool, old Docs, old ideas and old conclusions, as the FMG/IMG grows in the US the times will change, we still struggle with Race issues in the US and that started in the 1800's!..........give it time and I think in my lifetime it will be more pro FMG/IMG already the stuff that happened in the 80's has been stalled. :rolleyes:

(Oh pass me a beer and tell the girls in the hulla skirts to keep dancing this blood letting section is good stuff! LOL Just kidding)

[MYMD]

When did i say that MDs are allowed to do DO residencies? Sorry but right here:


'm a 1st year... it's still too early to try to predict which programs will send me an interview. MDs may still want to go into DO residencies. What if they don't get into an allopathic residency? DO programs provide a good alternative.

Maybe you meant go to DO school? I dunno ?:confused:

BTW this is one of my points too, DO is not a 2 way street.

[542qwerty]

Sorry but right here:



Read it again. You didn't understand. I said "may still want", which is not equal to "allowed to".

[stephew]

um, ok....Yes but it's still the old Guard they only studied 70% of what we study today in medschool, old Docs, old ideas and old conclusions, as the FMG/IMG grows in the US the times will change, we still struggle with Race issues in the US and that started in the 1800's!..........give it time and I think in my lifetime it will be more pro FMG/IMG already the stuff that happened in the 80's has been stalled. :rolleyes:

(Oh pass me a beer and tell the girls in the hulla skirts to keep dancing this blood letting section is good stuff! LOL Just kidding)

[MYMD]

Read it again. You didn't understand. I said "may still want", which is not equal to "allowed to".
Yeah I was trying to be nice, I know you meant something else people just take it the wrong way.

[MYMD]

um, ok....
One more thought, DO's have to deal with rules about the residencies that may never change ie: take both tests Comlex and USLME, FMG's just are mostly dealing with acceptance of them, I think this is going to get better in the future, this is perception verses rules and laws, way easier to change by having more FMGs and good ones. Just a thought.

[MYMD]

BTW a list of major Countries DO's cannot practice in or have very limited practice: http://www.valuemd.com/537792-post13.html

I did not want to DOuble post it. BTW this is from a DO Site LOL, I love truth!

Please if there are updates please post them I put one in the post that New Zealand has Approved DO's for practice and thats good news.

[wizard17]

anyone catch that? DO schools are not registered with the WHO..... :shock: :confused: :rolleyes:

[ak7083]

ONe of the more funnier things of heard in a while...

[billydoc]

I know that this pi$$ing contest will never end, b/c pplcome to it with their minds made up already. No matter what the other "opposing" view may be. But I'll tell you what I know. When I was at Ross, I had a classmate who I saw selling some of his personal stuff and Meisenberg's biochem book by the library. Usually a sight like this one meant that the person failed, or fed up with Dominica, and just heading home for whatever the reason. So i've asked the guy if he did well on the "mini" He saidhe did better than he expected, but I guess he saw that puzzled look on my face and quickly added " I dot in D.O school in the STATES" I've asked him, but it's a beginning of October...Do they start that late in a year? he said "Nope, I'm starting next August" So, I know all the Caibbean experts will say that he was stupid to leave Ross, and to "loose" another year to get a D.O. But that's what he did, and I think he was right. I have a good friend also from the Big 3 (which were there before SABA) interviewing right now for Ortho and Anasthesia spots. He kicks himself in the butt now, really regreting not going D.O (yes, you read it right FOR ORTHO!) Now this guy maintained 3.9 through basic science and 4.0 rotations with some kick **** LORs. He did 98% on step1 and 94% on step2. We have a couple of common friends who are PGY 3 and 4 in D.O Ortho NY program. I'd say this try U.S MD, then D.O and only then everything else, if you want to practice in U.S. Period.

[stephew]

and that means... nothing. you need to understand the relevance of these things before trying to weild them in support of your arguement else it just makes you look like a shady politican or ignorant of that which you pontificate. its sort of alike me saying wow! Off shore schools aren't LCME accredited!! Do you even know what that means and if its worth the histrionics? anyone catch that? DO schools are not registered with the WHO..... :shock: :confused: :rolleyes:

[swimguy23]

I know that this pi$$ing contest will never end, b/c pplcome to it with their minds made up already. No matter what the other "opposing" view may be. But I'll tell you what I know. When I was at Ross, I had a classmate who I saw selling some of his personal stuff and Meisenberg's biochem book by the library. Usually a sight like this one meant that the person failed, or fed up with Dominica, and just heading home for whatever the reason. So i've asked the guy if he did well on the "mini" He saidhe did better than he expected, but I guess he saw that puzzled look on my face and quickly added " I dot in D.O school in the STATES" I've asked him, but it's a beginning of October...Do they start that late in a year? he said "Nope, I'm starting next August" So, I know all the Caibbean experts will say that he was stupid to leave Ross, and to "loose" another year to get a D.O. But that's what he did, and I think he was right. I have a good friend also from the Big 3 (which were there before SABA) interviewing right now for Ortho and Anasthesia spots. He kicks himself in the butt now, really regreting not going D.O (yes, you read it right FOR ORTHO!) Now this guy maintained 3.9 through basic science and 4.0 rotations with some kick **** LORs. He did 98% on step1 and 94% on step2. We have a couple of common friends who are PGY 3 and 4 in D.O Ortho NY program. I'd say this try U.S MD, then D.O and only then everything else, if you want to practice in U.S. Period.

thats fine and its your opinion but it does not make it anymore right than people promoting caribbean. I went to one interview very recently and one of the guys interviewing me asked why caribbean. I told him the truth.....not the crap people try and push like "i wanted to go to caribbean for warm weather".....he then asked me why i didnt go DO. I told him I was paying for school and I have always wanted the MD, shallow or not but it was my choice. He said point blank "we have never had a DO in the program before and have not offered any interviews to any either".....I wont name the program, but its definitely a big university program. Now yes, that is one program.....but for every carib that wishes they went DO there is probably a DO wishing they got their MD. Antecdotal evidence at best, but that is basically what this entire thread is all about

[Shah_Patel_PT]

thats fine and its your opinion but it does not make it anymore right than people promoting caribbean. I went to one interview very recently and one of the guys interviewing me asked why caribbean. I told him the truth.....not the crap people try and push like "i wanted to go to caribbean for warm weather".....he then asked me why i didnt go DO. I told him I was paying for school and I have always wanted the MD, shallow or not but it was my choice. He said point blank "we have never had a DO in the program before and have not offered any interviews to any either".....I wont name the program, but its definitely a big university program. Now yes, that is one program.....but for every carib that wishes they went DO there is probably a DO wishing they got their MD. Antecdotal evidence at best, but that is basically what this entire thread is all about


I have had similar circumstances during my interviews. Usually the big university programs are the ones that are anti-DO.

If you are planning on going into a small community program...I am sure DO or caribbean IMG would fair well.

[wizard17]

and that means... nothing. you need to understand the relevance of these things before trying to weild them in support of your arguement else it just makes you look like a shady politican or ignorant of that which you pontificate. its sort of alike me saying wow! Off shore schools aren't LCME accredited!! Do you even know what that means and if its worth the histrionics?

actually youre the one that is quite mistaken and should think before posting.. that post of mine youre referring to is talking about international licensure. sure, this means nothing if you want to be a doctor in the only place in the world that you can be a doctor at, the usa. however, if you open your eyes and see there are actually places beyond the usa, then you will realize that not all doctors are in the usa, and many countries require a school to be recognized by the WHO. as simple as it is, it is still a requirement, and as simple as it is, no DO school has it.

[oskie94]

Have you read these links? I think it answers most of the questions.

Osteopathic medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MD or DO (http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/mdordo.asp)

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Have you read these links? I think it answers most of the questions.

Osteopathic medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic)

MD or DO (http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/mdordo.asp)

Neither of those links are any official authority on medicine.

[billydoc]

thats fine and its your opinion but it does not make it anymore right than people promoting caribbean. I went to one interview very recently and one of the guys interviewing me asked why caribbean. I told him the truth.....not the crap people try and push like "i wanted to go to caribbean for warm weather".....he then asked me why i didnt go DO. I told him I was paying for school and I have always wanted the MD, shallow or not but it was my choice. He said point blank "we have never had a DO in the program before and have not offered any interviews to any either".....I wont name the program, but its definitely a big university program. Now yes, that is one program.....but for every carib that wishes they went DO there is probably a DO wishing they got their MD. Antecdotal evidence at best, but that is basically what this entire thread is all about
Swimguy, it's not my opinion. It's what my upperclassman from ROSS said, and just confirmed with me today. He is not saying that he'd do it out of any particular love for d.o, but just b/cin this particular instance where he wants ortho, and have connections at D.O program it would've been beter. As for D.O whishing MD after their names... it's a reality, not a dreamm. Take a look here:
Resume, The World Health Network - Anti-Aging and Longevity (http://www.worldhealth.net/p/141.html)
So i wouldn't sweat it too much.

[swimguy23]

Swimguy, it's not my opinion. It's what my upperclassman from ROSS said, and just confirmed with me today. He is not saying that he'd do it out of any particular love for d.o, but just b/cin this particular instance where he wants ortho, and have connections at D.O program it would've been beter. As for D.O whishing MD after their names... it's a reality, not a dreamm. Take a look here:
Resume, The World Health Network - Anti-Aging and Longevity (http://www.worldhealth.net/p/141.html)
So i wouldn't sweat it too much.

Yes but you have to acknowledge its in that particular case.....not every case is like that and you are foolish to believe its the norm

[billydoc]

Yes but you have to acknowledge its in that particular case.....not every case is like that and you are foolish to believe its the norm

You see in my case, I didn't even apply in the States. I'm older and the premed game will keep me further away from my goal. But I'm also a nontrad with 16 yrs of an RN and M.S in Acupuncture/private practice under my belt. Nobody probably would care if and when I get to residency. I've started ROSS, but got quite sick while on Dominica. Withdrew, and though I can go back, since I was on medical LOA. But now I'm going with a much cheaper Carib school, for that reason alone. Call me shallow, near-sighted or what have you. I have some health issues which become much worse on the islands with either inadequate or poor chice in food supply. I had my acceptance at ROSS, SABA, and later SMU. I pretty much know what i know out of the MD game, so I'm going with ST.James, though my stats are quite good,k and if I spent some time with MCAT then D.O. would bea very real possibility. But, time waits for no man (or a woman). So i'll give it a shot one more time. if not...I can make good living in my current career.

[oskie94]

Neither of those links are any official authority on medicine.

Who is then???

[Doc2010]

I have had similar circumstances during my interviews. Usually the big university programs are the ones that are anti-DO.

If you are planning on going into a small community program...I am sure DO or caribbean IMG would fair well.

This not always the case. I live in TX and there are six allopathic universities here. All of them have DOs in their program. Assistant professor of the dermantology department at UT Southwestern is a DO. Dr. edited for names (http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/findfac/professional/0,,18537,00.html)

[billydoc]

I'll tell you guys one thing...if you have any doubts that the D.Os are able and practicing in any medical specialty, do yourself a favor just type in google ",D.O. Urolologist or dermotologist, or neurosurgeon" or whatever your heart desires. There is no question that U.S grads, including D.Os have a much easier time securing competative residencies. It's a silly arguement. If I was a bit younger there is no question for me that I'd do everything in my power to stay in U.S. If that means going D.O so be it. Choosing Carib over U.S for the title of MD vs D.O is idiotic, IMHO. I already gave you a link to demonstrate how D.O, MD option works, and you can find more on your own. Just my $0.02

[wizard17]

I'll tell you guys one thing...if you have any doubts that the D.Os are able and practicing in any medical specialty, do yourself a favor just type in google ",D.O. Urolologist or dermotologist, or neurosurgeon" or whatever your heart desires. There is no question that U.S grads, including D.Os have a much easier time securing competative residencies. It's a silly arguement. If I was a bit younger there is no question for me that I'd do everything in my power to stay in U.S. If that means going D.O so be it. Choosing Carib over U.S for the title of MD vs D.O is idiotic, IMHO. I already gave you a link to demonstrate how D.O, MD option works, and you can find more on your own. Just my $0.02

that link is . it has been tried by other ppl and their respective state medical boards found out about it and forced them to ONLY advertise themselves as DOs since that is the way they got their full education. the MD letters were for a short stint in something that is not at all recognized by the state. thus... to show MD letters after doing that is quite illegal.

cheers.

[stephew]

its specious reasoning to suggest that a couple of poor DOs is adequte to damn an entire field. it would be in fact like someone trying to denegrate all imgs by reading the questionable reasoning of some on this thread. A good DO school= a good IMG school. Stick to the spots if you want to root for a team.

[billydoc]

its specious reasoning to suggest that a couple of poor DOs is adequte to damn an entire field. it would be in fact like someone trying to denegrate all imgs by reading the questionable reasoning of some on this thread. A good DO school= a good IMG school. Stick to the spots if you want to root for a team.

Steph, I don't argue with the quality of the medical education in D.O and good IMG schools. But is this not true that generally D.Os have a much better chance, and a first pick of the residency simply b/c they are American grads vs foreign. I'm not saying like Frankenstein "DO=good" "Carib MD=bad" or wise versa. But ppl on these threads get quite delusional at times,b/c they want to hear and see things not the way they are, but how they fit in their artificial World in which they want to live. Some are simply lazy to do the intelegent search, and just substitute facts with the agenda, and subjective opinions.

[billydoc]

that link is . it has been tried by other ppl and their respective state medical boards found out about it and forced them to ONLY advertise themselves as DOs since that is the way they got their full education. the MD letters were for a short stint in something that is not at all recognized by the state. thus... to show MD letters after doing that is quite illegal.

cheers.

Show me the link where it states that medical boards "forced" them to use D.O only. i live in NY and have quite a few friends and business partners who are D.Os (formely MDs in their countries). these folks went thru NYCOM emigre' physician program, and yes got licensed as D.Os. But...they use that M.D ad lib in all of their ads and even on RX pads. I have yet to see or hear about some disciplinary action agains them by the board. They have all been trained by the domicile (mainly U.S.S.R) programs from the WHO-listed schools with an MD. So who is to strip them off their titles? Same thing with the American trained d.Os who get their MD from the banana boat republic. Check your facts.

[swimguy23]

Steph, I don't argue with the quality of the medical education in D.O and good IMG schools. But is this not true that generally D.Os have a much better chance, and a first pick of the residency simply b/c they are American grads vs foreign. I'm not saying like Frankenstein "DO=good" "Carib MD=bad" or wise versa. But ppl on these threads get quite delusional at times,b/c they want to hear and see things not the way they are, but how they fit in their artificial World in which they want to live. Some are simply lazy to do the intelegent search, and just substitute facts with the agenda, and subjective opinions.

we'll let you know in march because there are several of us applying for semi competitive or competitive programs at some competitive institutions.....until then its all speculation

[wizard17]

Steph, I don't argue with the quality of the medical education in D.O and good IMG schools. But is this not true that generally D.Os have a much better chance, and a first pick of the residency simply b/c they are American grads vs foreign. I'm not saying like Frankenstein "DO=good" "Carib MD=bad" or wise versa. But ppl on these threads get quite delusional at times,b/c they want to hear and see things not the way they are, but how they fit in their artificial World in which they want to live. Some are simply lazy to do the intelegent search, and just substitute facts with the agenda, and subjective opinions.


************************************************** ******* ... ok im going back to sleep now.

[stephew]

there is no central repository for data that i know of that compares outcomes for imgs with dos, or more importantly, Dos with IMGs from well established schools. But take a gander at the residency placement lists from a couple of good offshore schools and a couple of DO schools. Also, the appeal of DOs versus IMGs varies widely on locale; in the mid west where Do schools are located there is a higher comfort level than in other regions. And SGU etc for instance has a very high comfort level among PDs else where. I agree 100% that people here have irrationale feelings on this topic more than most. its a disgrace frankly to the very notion of "evidence based" (a term I thorough dislike by the way). But in my estimation and its nothing more than that after 10 years of research, coming from a better offshore school and a better DO school are about comparable in terms of opportunity. However there are regional variables and also varibles related to where you actualyl went to school. IMGs like to pretend it isnt so but where you go to school does indeed matter quite a bit often.Steph, I don't argue with the quality of the medical education in D.O and good IMG schools. But is this not true that generally D.Os have a much better chance, and a first pick of the residency simply b/c they are American grads vs foreign. I'm not saying like Frankenstein "DO=good" "Carib MD=bad" or wise versa. But ppl on these threads get quite delusional at times,b/c they want to hear and see things not the way they are, but how they fit in their artificial World in which they want to live. Some are simply lazy to do the intelegent search, and just substitute facts with the agenda, and subjective opinions.

[stephew]

this really is specious. there are really no good head to head comparisons, we dont know how many do's are applying, they are not applying head to head and not with the same general stats. all we can do is take the data from many palces over many years and eye ball it. so its always all speculation and hence the folly of these strong stances that one is decidedly better than another.we'll let you know in march because there are several of us applying for semi competitive or competitive programs at some competitive institutions.....until then its all speculation

[billydoc]

haha... youre calling ppl dumb, and youre miss spelling intelligent. sweet. anyone see the sweet sweet irony here?? ... ok im going back to sleep now.


I don’t know if it ever occurred to you that not everybody who is on this board had a fortune of being born in the U.S.A. Yeah, I might have misspelled the word “intelligent” but I don’t see any “irony” it. It was really very late at night; I tend to get tired too. I wonder if you could communicate in a foreign language as well as I do in English? And since you are so anal about it then why are you not at Harvard? Aren’t you the same “cooldreams” who failed at D.O school, and now bash the D.O profession at every opportunity he gets? At least,“sweet”, I was good enough to get in medical school in the country of origin, and I hold two professional licenses here in the good ole’ U.S of A. So at least I’ve accomplished something. What have you accomplished? If I was born here things would have been different I guess. But I doubted if I’d squander away the opportunity to become a physician in my own country, and look for it elsewhere…. I guess like you do. And where did you see me calling ppl “dumb”, though I now see how it could be applied to you, my delusional friend. Back to sleep is right.

Have a nice day :rolleyes: :evil:

[ak7083]

Steph, I don't argue with the quality of the medical education in D.O and good IMG schools. But is this not true that generally D.Os have a much better chance, and a first pick of the residency simply b/c they are American grads vs foreign.

Yes. Yes I believe they do. they have access to osteo and allopathic. MDs conversley do not. har har...

[vaulthold]

LECOM PA-has opened up a three year DO degree..
for family Med...!

[swimguy23]

this really is specious. there are really no good head to head comparisons, we dont know how many do's are applying, they are not applying head to head and not with the same general stats. all we can do is take the data from many palces over many years and eye ball it. so its always all speculation and hence the folly of these strong stances that one is decidedly better than another.

hey it was the best exit to this thread i could come up with at 0630.....put on some manpants! :D

[wizard17]

I don’t know if it ever occurred to you that not everybody who is on this board had a fortune of being born in the U.S.A. Yeah, I might have misspelled the word “intelligent” but I don’t see any “irony” it. It was really very late at night; I tend to get tired too. I wonder if you could communicate in a foreign language as well as I do in English? And since you are so anal about it then why are you not at Harvard? Aren’t you the same “cooldreams” who failed at D.O school, and now bash the D.O profession at every opportunity he gets? At least,“sweet”, I was good enough to get in medical school in the country of origin, and I hold two professional licenses here in the good ole’ U.S of A. So at least I’ve accomplished something. What have you accomplished? If I was born here things would have been different I guess. But I doubted if I’d squander away the opportunity to become a physician in my own country, and look for it elsewhere…. I guess like you do. And where did you see me calling ppl “dumb”, though I now see how it could be applied to you, my delusional friend. Back to sleep is right.

Have a nice day :rolleyes: :evil:

another satisfyingly disgruntled poster.... :)

i havent done anything you would consider an accomplishment. i dont care either :)

[billydoc]

another satisfyingly disgruntled poster.... :)

i havent done anything you would consider an accomplishment. i dont care either :)

Not that I value your opinion that much. But aren't you the one who started the pi$$ing contest? I just expressed my opinion on the subject of American vs Foreign medical education, and not D.O vs M.D as many are trying to package it here. You called me out. I responded. I guess the ole' folk wisdom of not throwing stones at someone, if you live in a glass casstle should teach you something. As far as disgruntled is concerned...weren't it you who's got banned? Remember "cooldreams"?
Formerly known as....is right.

Have a nice day :rolleyes:

[chuksobia]

lets cut this crap about DO and IMG. First of all everyone in these forum are in carribean schools because we do not meet criteria for admission to U.S MD Schools and most of the time except in very few cases criteria for DO schools.
The fact that in a clinical setting , Doctors are addressed as Dr. not MD or DO.DO schools train and encourage there graduates to go into primary care but quite a few go into the most competitive residencies. Carribean schools are there for us that can make it to U.S or canadian schoools or even u.k schools.But lets not forget the reason we are in carribean school because some people seem to forget so soon, let me remind, You had a low GPA , LOW MCAT SCORE or did not even had the guts to take the mcats at all.
We are very quick to mention sgu, ross, auc, saba, fine what about the other schools? Do they provide same oppurtunities?I have seen carribean MD driving cabs in NEWYORK.
In terms of residency, the only way you can get a spot over a U.S MD or DO is if you have a higher usmle score that them, I mean very high, but if you have same score with them oofcourse the U.S MD or DO is going to get that spot for sure.
Talking about practicing worldwide, If you are lisenced in one state in the U.S, regardless MD OR DO, you can practice virtually everywhere in the world is not like any of us plan to do that.Is like saying someone with MBBS or MBch or any other degree can practice medicine.
The fact remains that as carribean student we have to work twice as hard just to prove ourselves and that what we should be doing instead of batching others.
If you got into medicine because of that status then you should be thinking about another profession because you lied in your admission interview.

[chuksobia]

lets cut this crap about DO and IMG. First of all everyone in these forum are in carribean schools because we do not meet criteria for admission to U.S MD Schools and most of the time except in very few cases criteria for DO schools.
The fact that in a clinical setting , Doctors are addressed as Dr. not MD or DO.DO schools train and encourage there graduates to go into primary care but quite a few go into the most competitive residencies. Carribean schools are there for us that can make it to U.S or canadian schoools or even u.k schools.But lets not forget the reason we are in carribean school because some people seem to forget so soon, let me remind, You had a low GPA , LOW MCAT SCORE or did not even had the guts to take the mcats at all.
We are very quick to mention sgu, ross, auc, saba, fine what about the other schools? Do they provide same oppurtunities?I have seen carribean MD driving cabs in NEWYORK.
In terms of residency, the only way you can get a spot over a U.S MD or DO is if you have a higher usmle score that them, I mean very high, but if you have same score with them oofcourse the U.S MD or DO is going to get that spot for sure.
Talking about practicing worldwide, If you are lisenced in one state in the U.S, regardless MD OR DO, you can practice virtually everywhere in the world is not like any of us plan to do that.Is like saying someone with MBBS or MBch or any other degree can practice medicine.
The fact remains that as carribean student we have to work twice as hard just to prove ourselves and that what we should be doing instead of batching others.
If you got into medicine because of that status then you should be thinking about another profession because you lied in your admission interview.
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[JMT]

There are many DOs in surgery in fact my fiance has been talking with a DO who is doing oncolgy surgery, however that is a DO residency. The fact is that DOs can have DO as well as MD residencies.

[californiamd]

Fact Is That Which Would You Rather Prefer? Md Or Do? Md Is Way More Popular Than Do And Do Still Needs Sme Recognition Caribbean Is Definitely Best Way To Go Because Nothing An Compare With Your Md Title At The End Of The Day No Matter Where You Got It From Because An Md Is An Md

[stephew]

and thus you have the weakest arguement in the world for making your decision. that Dos are not recognized in many places out of the US matters to a very small few. The "nothing compares to an MD at the end of the day" is generally a rationalizion of a mind that focuses' on wearing the MD degree more than actually being a doctor. there are a few exceptions (like those scores of americans who ultimately go abroad to practice their trade?) where it makes a licensing difference. But for the rest, its merely the concern of a either a poorly informed or poorly prioritized mind. I

f your biggest concern is on practicing medicine, you should be deciding between a good offshore or international school versus a good DO school. you should be looking at where people tend to get residencies from the individual places you are investigating. Otherwise you truely risk a mediocre career (in terms of doing what you actually want to do, where you want to do it) for the sake of the appropriate label on your jacket. not the sort of doctor you'd want to go to. Remember- you wont be thinking of those initials many hours out of the day.

Fact Is That Which Would You Rather Prefer? Md Or Do? Md Is Way More Popular Than Do And Do Still Needs Sme Recognition Caribbean Is Definitely Best Way To Go Because Nothing An Compare With Your Md Title At The End Of The Day No Matter Where You Got It From Because An Md Is An Md

[Runzhouse]

lets cut this crap about DO and IMG. First of all everyone in these forum are in carribean schools because we do not meet criteria for admission to U.S MD Schools and most of the time except in very few cases criteria for DO schools.
The fact that in a clinical setting , Doctors are addressed as Dr. not MD or DO.DO schools train and encourage there graduates to go into primary care but quite a few go into the most competitive residencies. Carribean schools are there for us that can make it to U.S or canadian schoools or even u.k schools.But lets not forget the reason we are in carribean school because some people seem to forget so soon, let me remind, You had a low GPA , LOW MCAT SCORE or did not even had the guts to take the mcats at all.
We are very quick to mention sgu, ross, auc, saba, fine what about the other schools? Do they provide same oppurtunities?I have seen carribean MD driving cabs in NEWYORK.
In terms of residency, the only way you can get a spot over a U.S MD or DO is if you have a higher usmle score that them, I mean very high, but if you have same score with them oofcourse the U.S MD or DO is going to get that spot for sure.
Talking about practicing worldwide, If you are lisenced in one state in the U.S, regardless MD OR DO, you can practice virtually everywhere in the world is not like any of us plan to do that.Is like saying someone with MBBS or MBch or any other degree can practice medicine.
The fact remains that as carribean student we have to work twice as hard just to prove ourselves and that what we should be doing instead of batching others.
If you got into medicine because of that status then you should be thinking about another profession because you lied in your admission interview.

Completely agree...stop trying to justify the fact that you have to go out of the country to gain your medical school education...Be proud of yourself for deciding to stick with medicine and work your tail off to prove to those who didnt believe in you beforehand...the fact of the matter is you will have to try harder to gain equal footing than your US counterparts (MD or DO)...also...once you actually start working the REAL world as a healthcare professional, nobody is going to question you if you have a MD or DO as the two initials behind your name...patients might be curious, collegues might have some bias, but for the most part nobody will care...all they will see a neurologist or cardiologist or neurosurgeon...I have nothing agaisnt carribbean schools, in fact a few (big 4 in particular) will provide you with the education necessary to succede...but you better work your tail off as I said earlier because it is a tougher climb...good luck to all of you...you will all be my future collegues and I dont care which school you went to, just as long as you are competent and licensed to practice medicine (boards..etc) you will have my respect (MD, DO, carrib MD...watever)

[MYMD]

oops wrong thread

[stephew]

and before you call me a ringmaster in the "right thread", be aware its a tos violation

[MYMD]

and before you call me a ringmaster in the "right thread", be aware its a tos violation
I edited: missunderstood some of the postings and after talking with above poster.

[stephew]

insults are not permitted period. if there is a post that has insults that the moderators havent seen, report it. I also did not call you smug however if Im wrong, flag the post and it wil be attended to. TOs applies to moderators and all users.

[spreebee]

I am in the position of either going to 2 ofcarib schools and the option of a DO school. Thanks for yopur input. Iguess I will ahve to figure it out for myself. It seems DO school is a sure thing. Schools in the caribbean have high attrition rates, If you work hard enough my guess is those statistics are not relavent to you.

Some Carribean schools have high attrition rates because the entering students are not properly screened. If you have the right mentality about being a doctor from the start instead of blowing off your studies to go party all the time, you'll be fine in the Carribean. Also, as it goes for D.O. vs. IMG, I think Sackler > D.O. Sackler is one of only two foreign schools specifically recognized by the New York Department of Education as meeting the same excellence as its medical schools. So, if you want a residency in New York, your on the same level as the New York schools for the State of New York and that's why you always see people from Sackler going into plastic surgery and such in New York... Also, they have faculty that teach and have won the Nobel Prize, research facilities like Harvard, and you can even do stem cell research there with human embryo's blah blah blah...

[billydoc]

Some Carribean schools have high attrition rates because the entering students are not properly screened. If you have the right mentality about being a doctor from the start instead of blowing off your studies to go party all the time, you'll be fine in the Carribean. Also, as it goes for D.O. vs. IMG, I think Sackler > D.O. Sackler is one of only two foreign schools specifically recognized by the New York Department of Education as meeting the same excellence as its medical schools. So, if you want a residency in New York, your on the same level as the New York schools for the State of New York and that's why you always see people from Sackler going into plastic surgery and such in New York... Also, they have faculty that teach and have won the Nobel Prize, research facilities like Harvard, and you can even do stem cell research there with human embryo's blah blah blah...

What about other Israili schools like Ben Gurion University, and Technion? I think some of those are joint ventures with some Big name schools in NYC?

[MustafaMond]

*those considering SGU or DO here is my opinion after lot of time and research. I was accepted to both.......

At least five or six new DO school have opened up this year alone and another 6 are planned. DO will be graduating 4500 students p/annum in 3 years and allopathic school graduates 16000 p/annum. Stigma is clearly fading as 20 percent of new physicians are DO in another few years. Definitely easier to specialize as DO. In most DO schools out of 100 DO students per school, 37 will go into specialty. That is 37 percent specialty rate on average! In SGU out of 500 graduates maybe 20 will specialize. That is 4 percent specialty rate! If U want to practice in US or Canada, DO is clearly better choice.

[spreebee]

Most DO's wind up in ER - Rehab medicine and Family practice. I have not seen in any/many in surgery. Where as if you look at Ross, SGU, AUC and Saba grads they are getting 70% IM/FP and 30% (these are rough estimates ) are getting other than FP/IM and some getting in surgery. There was a great thread on the Saba forum many months ago where they compared Saba and SGU. They had the stat's for both schools - it was most impressive work. IF you survive the island school run and graduate and do well in your clinicals. You may get a good placement...

I agree... I was talking to a well respected SGU affiliate that graduated there and he basically said if you go to the top 3 and do good on the boards you can go into anything.. He also hinted that some of the 6,000+ SGU grads are program directors in comptetitive residencies like neurosurgery and plastics so you have an advantage over other International Schools because they are familiar with your school or treat you equally as the U.S. MG's...Basically he said if you have the board score you can get the residency... Most people don't get the board score they need for a competitvve residency so they end up in the lesser competetive ones...

[billydoc]

*those considering SGU or DO here is my opinion after lot of time and research. I was accepted to both.......

At least five or six new DO school have opened up this year alone and another 6 are planned. DO will be graduating 4500 students p/annum in 3 years and allopathic school graduates 16000 p/annum. Stigma is clearly fading as 20 percent of new physicians are DO in another few years. Definitely easier to specialize as DO. In most DO schools out of 100 DO students per school, 37 will go into specialty. That is 37 percent specialty rate on average! In SGU out of 500 graduates maybe 20 will specialize. That is 4 percent specialty rate! If U want to practice in US or Canada, DO is clearly better choice.

I think it's a very smart decision, Mustafa.
Good Luck.

[GeorgeMD2B]

*those considering SGU or DO here is my opinion after lot of time and research. I was accepted to both.......

At least five or six new DO school have opened up this year alone and another 6 are planned. DO will be graduating 4500 students p/annum in 3 years and allopathic school graduates 16000 p/annum. Stigma is clearly fading as 20 percent of new physicians are DO in another few years. Definitely easier to specialize as DO. In most DO schools out of 100 DO students per school, 37 will go into specialty. That is 37 percent specialty rate on average! In SGU out of 500 graduates maybe 20 will specialize. That is 4 percent specialty rate! If U want to practice in US or Canada, DO is clearly better choice.


I just studied SGU and AUC's residency list, about 60 percent of grads from both schools went into primary care, the remainder went into specialties. Still I would say its easier for DOs to match into specialties. That being said if you go to a top US MD program, the vast majority of students become specialists, on UPenn's residency match list nearly 80 percent of their grads went into specialties, the majority of the remainder went to University based IM and Pediatrics.

[vangadi]

*those considering SGU or DO here is my opinion after lot of time and research. I was accepted to both.......

At least five or six new DO school have opened up this year alone and another 6 are planned. DO will be graduating 4500 students p/annum in 3 years and allopathic school graduates 16000 p/annum. Stigma is clearly fading as 20 percent of new physicians are DO in another few years. Definitely easier to specialize as DO. In most DO schools out of 100 DO students per school, 37 will go into specialty. That is 37 percent specialty rate on average! In SGU out of 500 graduates maybe 20 will specialize. That is 4 percent specialty rate! If U want to practice in US or Canada, DO is clearly better choice.


First off, let me say that I am an SGU graduate who has respect for all physicians...regardless of the school you're from.

However, I must point out one or two GLARING descrepancies that I found with the above post. I graduated in the class of 2006 and 18 of us matched for Anesthesiology ALONE! I think our graduating class (in 06) was around 350. I haven't actually counted the number of other people who matched for specialty but I believe it to be something like 20-30%.

Here's the website if anyone's interested to figure the actual stats out:

Alumni - 2006 Postgraduate Residency Appointments - St. George&rsquo;s University - Caribbean Medical & Veterinary School (http://www.sgu.edu/website/SGUWebSite.nsf/alumni/2006-postgraduate-residency.html)

Before people start getting mad, I really think the ultimate deciding factor on getting into residency depends on the individual...this goes for any school.

In the end, does it REALLY matter? if you do well in any school (for example SGU, NYCOM, etc.), will you not get into a residency program and become a practicing physician?

Why don't we leave this pissing contest to the snobs at Harvard, Yale, and Columbia?



vivek

[vangadi]

here's a new updated link for the residency posts:

SGU Residency Postings for 2007 (http://www.sgu.edu/ERD/2008/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1)

hopes this dispels the myth that SGU grads are completely shut off from specialties...

[teratos]

You also have to keep in mind that subspecialties such as GI, cardiology, endocrine, nephrology, etc. all are fellowships that you go into AFTER your IM residency. You can't judge the # of people who specialize by the match list. G

[spreebee]

DOs can get competitive residencies with contacts and good USMLEs as well. Caribbean will still have a stigma among your coworkers, at least initially. It's very common for physicians to ask where their coworker studied at.

I asked my doctor yesterday (Graduated from Penn State School of Medicine) if he has heard of the AUC (didn't tell him I was enrolled). He replied, " I've worked with three exceptional doctors from the AUC." What kinda stigma is that?

[GeorgeMD2B]

A degree from an Osteopathic Medical school is a legitimate degree unlike those from Caribbean schools whose primary motive are your $$$. I know a number of DOs who have gotten into highly competitive fields, it is a lot harder for IMGs to match into competitive schools, especially Caribbean graduates.

[emt036]

Have you compared the match lists? Also an "MD2B", I am sure you know that an MD is recognized by all countries, whereas a DO degree is recognized only by a handful.

[GeorgeMD2B]

Anyone who picks a Caribbean school over a DO program is seriously misinformed. DO students get higher Stafford limits, up to 40K a year. Only three Caribbean programs get Stafford loans at this point anyway.

[emt036]

And those schools also get federal GradPLUS loans... Did you forget that DO's only have a first-time USMLE Step I passing rate of 73% compared to ~90% for the better Caribbean schools? But why I am feeding a troll anyways?

[GeorgeMD2B]

The 90 percent pass rate is not truly 90 percent. Caribbean schools have a lot of attrition. My friend at Ross personally saw that 2/3rds of his class was thrown out. Other Caribbean schools have high attrition too. Overall IMGs have a 50 percent match rate. In most US medical schools including Osteopathic programs, attrition is a non issue.
Ten students at my school took the Step 1 and no one failed, I go to a program in Australia, but I would never boast that my school has a high pass rate.

[viperspeed333]

I've heard mixed reviews on this forum as well as from other people. People from SGU are considered FMG's, but that stigma goes away with time and proof of competency. DO's are not in as great a demand, and they are more limited in the fields they can practice in (altho so are FMG's.) However, some still feel DO is superior to FMG. So...

Why did you choose to go to for an MD from the Caribbean, as opposed to a DO from the States? I have been accepted into SGU Fall '08, but am debating applying to DO schools if Allopathic schools don't work out...your help is greatly appreciated!!

[curious_george_2006]

I've heard mixed reviews on this forum as well as from other people. People from SGU are considered FMG's, but that stigma goes away with time and proof of competency. DO's are not in as great a demand, and they are more limited in the fields they can practice in (altho so are FMG's.) However, some still feel DO is superior to FMG. So...

Why did you choose to go to for an MD from the Caribbean, as opposed to a DO from the States? I have been accepted into SGU Fall '08, but am debating applying to DO schools if Allopathic schools don't work out...your help is greatly appreciated!!


I know this is supposed to be a big debate but for me it was a clear cut decision. I'd like to practice medicine SOMEWHERE someday. I'm born and raised in ny so maybe i'll practice in the US. But i like to change views. I'd love to practice in central america or even the UK or some exotic location. In that case, having an MD would get you through licensing hurdles easier (i would imagine) in other countries.

[jaywalk81]

keep in mind that MD is recognized every where in the world as a physician, DO is not and only recognized in the US.
and altho it might seem minor, but most is IMG, and not FMG. there is a difference.

[hotdog]

I'm just right below the line for U.S MD school, could have gotten in if I applied 2-3 years ago. I was wait-listed at 2 schools, but didn't make it... I'm sure I could have easily gotten into a DO school if I did apply.

All my reasons for picking SGU over DO schools are personal, and I would very much understand why others pick DO over foreign MD.
1. DO isn't recognized in many other countries... just mainly in the U.S. I have read on this forum and other forums that in some countries, DO is not recognized as a degree to practice medicine. I'll probably be in the U.S for large portion of my life, but I love traveling and stay in other countries; therefore, I don't want to limit my plan.
2. I have no interest in DO's philosophy in medicine.
3. The title. The word DO will always be after your name for the rest of your life. It might not matter for some, and I might understand why... but it matters to me.

[medigirl]

I really want to be able to do free clinic work in countries like India. I dont think a D.O would give me that privilege.

[Crispy]

For me, I have to be able to practice in various countries my husband can be stationed at in the Air Force--even though I will mostly be working in the base clinic or hospital. Also, I want to be on MD and not a DO.

[RussianJoo]

yeah same as above i don't agree with the DO philosophy and I want to be an MD not a DO. to be honest I haven't even heard of DO's before I got into med school. Also no other country has DO's but an MD is an MD everywhere. Ohh and I don't want to limit the type of doctor i can be, i am not sure on this but i don't think you can become a surgeon as a DO, I always thought of DOs as general practitioners or family doctors, please correct me if I am wrong.

[hotdog]

yeah same as above i don't agree with the DO philosophy and I want to be an MD not a DO. to be honest I haven't even heard of DO's before I got into med school. Also no other country has DO's but an MD is an MD everywhere. Ohh and I don't want to limit the type of doctor i can be, i am not sure on this but i don't think you can become a surgeon as a DO, I always thought of DOs as general practitioners or family doctors, please correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong sir. Majority of them become primary care physicians because their training emphasizes more on primary care, but more recently, many DO grads are going into ACGMC residencies (post-MD). It makes you think, doesn't this contradict the reason why some people pick the DO path because of its philosophy.

Wikipedia is my source:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1e/DOs_in_ACGME_residencies.jpg

[RussianJoo]

yeah well i guess i didn't want to be a hypocrite.

[hotdog]

yeah well i guess i didn't want to be a hypocrite.

Hahaha ;)

To the OP, this is probably the wrong place to post your question since you know the answers are going to be skewed greatly to one (the better) side.

[dunsoon]

There are DOs in all the fields, as far as I know. There is a DO orthopedic surgeon practicing in my hometown, my neurologist is a DO, there are DO pathologists, anesthesiologists, military DOs, etc. So I don't think being a DO prevents you from having access to certain subspecialties. Oh, and my cousin is a DO and has practiced medicine in Bosnia and other countries with MSF although it may be that if you are a free agent trying to get a job in certain countries, you may have a more difficult time without an MD.

The other thing about DO that is good is that I think their schools are cheaper and you are eligible for US Federal loans.

But why did I choose SGU...because they accepted me and in the time frame I needed (didn't want to wait for another round of US applications), I wanted to live abroad (why not the Caribbean?) and had been considering working in Britain and SGU allows us to do rotations in England.

[ecela7]

Au contraire on the DO being cheaper than SGU MD. I got in at VCOM and NSUCOM, VCOM was as expensive as SGU and NSUCOM (instate for me) was not much cheaper. Plus with Ft.Lauderdale being more expensive than Blacksburg VA, they both would have matched SGU in cost.
This is unusual, but when I worked at Tampa General on the ortho/trauma floor 2/3 (4 out of 6 in fact) of our attendings were DO not MD. The residents also reflected that.
However, rightly or wrongly, after all the work to become (any) doctor, even for one patient to not know that I am a doctor, would not work for me. I tried to get into the philosophy; I could not base my title on 200 hours of OMM. I mean no offence to any DO out there. I would go to a DO as quickly as an MD. But no DO on my lapel. Am I insecure, possibly....

[hotdog]

However, rightly or wrongly, after all the work to become (any) doctor, even for one patient to not know that I am a doctor, would not work for me. I tried to get into the philosophy; I could not base my title on 200 hours of OMM. I mean no offence to any DO out there. I would go to a DO as quickly as an MD. But no DO on my lapel. Am I insecure, possibly....

This is exactly what went through my mind when I was deciding. Couldn't have said it better.

Imagine this. After a long stressful day at work, a couple of your patients see your name tag XXXXX XXXXX DO, and ask "are you a doctor?" or "what does DO mean?". That would probably make my day !!! Then you have to spend a minute or two explaining and justifying why you're a real doctor, and they should allow you to treat them. You then go home thinking, is this going to happen to me for the rest of my life? Do I have to justify my title all the time? I would probably regret becoming a DO for the rest of my life. Similarly, a degree from SGU is also a stigma. Many patients will ask where did you go to med school. Then the next question is probably where's Grenada? But, you can bring up the fact that you were there for 2 years and did 2 years in the U.S. In addition, you can bring up your residency (in the U.S). Still a bit tough, but in the end you're a MD, and questions regarding your school location don't come up as frequently as "what's a DO?".

[dunsoon]

I understand this reasoning - everyone wants "credit" for their hard work and being an MD is more of an assurance of that than being a DO.

But to play devil's advocate it does seem that alot of people have heard of DO and if not, then simply the word "Doctor" in Doctor of Osteopathy would be good enough for a lot of patients. I mean, most people refer to their dentists as "Dr". And I chose a specialty of medicine where people have NO idea that I am a doctor of any sort and I have to constantly explain and they still don't get it. And I don't mind. So that also explains why I wouldn't mind being a DO either.

[hotdog]

And I chose a specialty of medicine where people have NO idea that I am a doctor of any sort and I have to constantly explain and they still don't get it. And I don't mind. So that also explains why I wouldn't mind being a DO either.

Very good personal reason. I'd buy that.

[aspiring in alaska]

DO have their own residencies. They can apply for a DO surgical residency as well as for MD surgical residency. They can apply for DO orthopedic surgery, DO “XXX”, just as well as MD orthopedic surgery, MD “XXX”. But MDs can’t apply to DO residencies.

So if you want to specialize, I think it would be easier as a DO. I’ve heard the MD residencies are much more coveted then the DO residencies, and the DO s have a hard time getting into MD residencies, but I still think its ** that a DO can apply to both.

[RussianJoo]

I understand this reasoning - everyone wants "credit" for their hard work and being an MD is more of an assurance of that than being a DO.

But to play devil's advocate it does seem that alot of people have heard of DO and if not, then simply the word "Doctor" in Doctor of Osteopathy would be good enough for a lot of patients. I mean, most people refer to their dentists as "Dr". And I chose a specialty of medicine where people have NO idea that I am a doctor of any sort and I have to constantly explain and they still don't get it. And I don't mind. So that also explains why I wouldn't mind being a DO either.

What specialty did you choose?

[jaywalk81]

if i remembered it right, i think it was PM&R. but dunsoon can verify it.
there is only a few specialty that i can think of that most non med ppl dont realize its really a medical doctor degree

[RussianJoo]

physical med and rehab? hmm i didn't even know u had to be an MD for that..

[wf24]

I could not get into a good DO school. I applied to 5 (PCOM, midwestern in AZ & IL, des moines, & kirksville) DO schools; I got rejected from all of them. I would have went the DO route instead of the sgu route if I gotten into a good DO school though. I am positive I could've gotten into like west virginia or the newer DO schools, but I chose not to apply. I think SGU gives me a better or equal chance of a specialty than the newer DO schools.

[hotdog]

physical med and rehab? hmm i didn't even know u had to be an MD for that..

You do. If I remember correctly, PM&R residents' average Step 1 score is probably the lowest compared to other specialty, even FP or IM.

[RussianJoo]

You do. If I remember correctly, PM&R residents' average Step 1 score is probably the lowest compared to other specialty, even FP or IM.

hmm interesting... so basically one can open up a gym and just charge people more because it's owned and operated by an MD trained in physical medicine. I know a good amount of people that would pay big bucks to be members of such a gym..

[hotdog]

hmm interesting... so basically one can open up a gym and just charge people more because it's owned and operated by an MD trained in physical medicine. I know a good amount of people that would pay big bucks to be members of such a gym..

Add a spa and charge double. Plus, make some skin ointments and recommend it to your patients (customers in this case). Nice way to get rich.

[RussianJoo]

exactly now you guys are thinking.. And with your MD to back things up people will trust your medical opinion. And you might be even be able to charge the insurance companies!

[dunsoon]

physical med and rehab? hmm i didn't even know u had to be an MD for that..


Oh Dear...that IS a problem. But no, I am in Pathology.

[dunsoon]

I actually had someone ask me "Why didn't you just study Mortuary Science, if that's what you wanted to do?" He said, "why do you need an MD to do that?" I asked him if he wanted his prostate biopsy to be read by a mortician. :rolleyes:

[Methodnike]

I actually had someone ask me "Why didn't you just study Mortuary Science, if that's what you wanted to do?" He said, "why do you need an MD to do that?" I asked him if he wanted his prostate biopsy to be read by a mortician. :rolleyes:well some people at the hospital I worked at thought that after my B.Sc in biochemistry that i could specialize in medicine (go directly into residency)...

[dunsoon]

well some people at the hospital I worked at thought that after my B.Sc in biochemistry that i could specialize in medicine (go directly into residency)...


I think we should all refer to morticians as "Dr". And our chiropracters. Oh, and our pedicurists.

[hotdog]

Oh Dear...that IS a problem. But no, I am in Pathology.

I guess Dr. P inspired you... well, at least the staining part.

[Methodnike]

worth of a wall hangingI guess Dr. P inspired you... well, at least the staining part.

[dunsoon]

I guess Dr. P inspired you... well, at least the staining part.

??? I don't know you are talking about ???

[jaywalk81]

??? I don't know you are talking about ???
dr. P from first term, histo class.
the first/second termers havent met dr.B from path yet

[Runzhouse]

And those schools also get federal GradPLUS loans... Did you forget that DO's only have a first-time USMLE Step I passing rate of 73% compared to ~90% for the better Caribbean schools? But why I am feeding a troll anyways?

Plz dont put up facts if you dont know the context behind them. We all know that carribbean pass rates are "inflated"...second, a majority of DO's dont even take the USMLE. Why would they?....If you want to be a neurosurgeon, you take the COMLEX and go to an Osteopathic Neurosurgical residency, you then work at a hospital and make a bizzillion dollars a year. If I was the number one student in my class, raped the COMLEX, it would be pointless and a waste of time for me to take the USMLE. Third, all residency programs are required to take the COMLEX...although some acgme still strongly recommend the USMLE for comparison purposes....Anyway, the combination of a low number of DO students, plus the fact that those that take the test are not always the top bred of their classes, clearly explains the pass rate. A better comparison would be the pass rates of COMLEX (which all DO's take) vs. USMLE (which all MD's take), and it's pretty much equal across the
board. A friend of mine goes to a DO school and I asked him how many people in his class (of 200) took the USMLE and he said probably around 10...

[Scott1981]

Plz dont put up facts if you dont know the context behind them. We all know that carribbean pass rates are "inflated"...second, a majority of DO's dont even take the USMLE. Why would they?....If you want to be a neurosurgeon, you take the COMLEX and go to an Osteopathic Neurosurgical residency, you then work at a hospital and make a bizzillion dollars a year. If I was the number one student in my class, raped the COMLEX, it would be pointless and a waste of time for me to take the USMLE. Third, all residency programs are required to take the COMLEX...although some acgme still strongly recommend the USMLE for comparison purposes....Anyway, the combination of a low number of DO students, plus the fact that those that take the test are not always the top bred of their classes, clearly explains the pass rate. A better comparison would be the pass rates of COMLEX (which all DO's take) vs. USMLE (which all MD's take), and it's pretty much equal across the
board. A friend of mine goes to a DO school and I asked him how many people in his class (of 200) took the USMLE and he said probably around 10...

thats funny. we have a lot of MSU and kansas city DO students that rotate through my hospital. every one that i bumped into this past 1.5 years has taken the usmle.
secondly, there are still many allopathic residency programs that do not take DO's. it wouldnt even matter if the DO took the usmle, they still are not getting in there. you want proof? i could give you links to quite a few programs that do not have a single DO in the program from top to bottom (although you can find a few img's in them). now, you cant tell me that this is a coincidence.

[rabaniel]

Hello Everyone :)


I recently went to an informational session for SGU. I asked one of the alumni what their thoughts were regarding a DO versus going to a foreign medical school. I was shocked with his response ,

"DO's are not real doctors."

What are your thoughts? Is there that much of a stigma with a DO? Mind you he has been a physician practicing in the San Diego area for many years now.

Thanks so much.

[Scott1981]

Hello Everyone :)


I recently went to an informational session for SGU. I asked one of the alumni what their thoughts were regarding a DO versus going to a foreign medical school. I was shocked with his response ,

"DO's are not real doctors."

What are your thoughts? Is there that much of a stigma with a DO? Mind you he has been a physician practicing in the San Diego area for many years now.

Thanks so much.

first of all, that sgu alumni is highly misinformed. they are every bit a doctor as a md. that being said, there are definetely stigmas, and they are usually based upon certain geographic areas.

[stephew]

i would be HIGHLY surprised to hear any sgu grad said that. if they did they should not be invited back.

There is a stigma with DO's but its mostly the problem of the people concerned about it, and its accepted in many regions.Hello Everyone :)


I recently went to an informational session for SGU. I asked one of the alumni what their thoughts were regarding a DO versus going to a foreign medical school. I was shocked with his response ,

"DO's are not real doctors."

What are your thoughts? Is there that much of a stigma with a DO? Mind you he has been a physician practicing in the San Diego area for many years now.

Thanks so much.

[Runzhouse]

thats funny. we have a lot of MSU and kansas city DO students that rotate through my hospital. every one that i bumped into this past 1.5 years has taken the usmle.
secondly, there are still many allopathic residency programs that do not take DO's even if they are required to "look" at comlex scores. it wouldnt even matter if the DO took the usmle, they still are not getting in there. you want proof? i could give you links to quite a few programs that do not have a single DO in the program from top to bottom (although you can find a few img's in them). now, you cant tell me that this is a coincidence.

The misinformation in Valuemd is quite ridicolous...we got students who quote physicians saying DO's aren't real doctors (if this was true, then its sad that they have to lie at SGU to try and make themselves better, no respectable MD US school would say that)...and we got people like scott making facts out of personal experiences..here are the facts:

http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/ost_factsheet.pdf

That site will tell you that there are 13500 Osteopathic Medical Students in 2006.

USMLE (http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html)

This site will tell you that 1300 students took the USMLE in 2006.

That means only 38% of Osteopathic Medical students take the USMLE Step I ...so, it still quite the minority who take the USMLE. Seeing that over 50% of Osteopathic Medical students end up in acgme residencies, that still quite a bit that get accepted without the USMLE, and thats assuming that every student who took the test decided on an acgme residency which of course is not always the case.

And believe me...if you dont think residency programs arent accepting of DO's especially in comparision to FMG's your going to be in for a shock...

[Scott1981]

The misinformation in Valuemd is quite ridicolous...we got students who quote physicians saying DO's aren't real doctors (if this was true, then its sad that they have to lie at SGU to try and make themselves better, no respectable MD US school would say that)...and we got people like scott making facts out of personal experiences..here are the facts:

http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/ost_factsheet.pdf

That site will tell you that there are 13500 Osteopathic Medical Students in 2006.

USMLE (http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2006.html)

This site will tell you that 1300 students took the USMLE in 2006.

That means only 38% of Osteopathic Medical students take the USMLE Step I ...so, it still quite the minority who take the USMLE. Seeing that over 50% of Osteopathic Medical students end up in acgme residencies, that still quite a bit that get accepted without the USMLE, and thats assuming that every student who took the test decided on an acgme residency which of course is not always the case.

And believe me...if you dont think residency programs arent accepting of DO's especially in comparision to FMG's your going to be in for a shock...

actually, ive got a tad more experience with the DO profession then you think ;).
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf
scroll to page 7 of 139. the 2007 match only had 1624 DO applicants to the NRMP. im going to use your number of 1325 (had to make it accurate per your usmle link) who took the usmle in 2006. we all know that DO schools have been sprouting up like weeds the past few years (not unlike the caribbean). so ill be conservative and only add 100 for these new schools and enrollment increases.

scroll to page 3 of 7 on below link. slighly different data (adds a few DO applicants... we will use those numbers so you can say that i will pick the data that favors your arguement). now we have 1652 DO applicants. this number is after those who were withdrawn from the match because of concurrent DO matching. these 1652 people either didnt match DO or didnt apply to DO programs.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables.pdf

so now we have the number of 1425 DO usmle test takers for 1652 NRMP applicants. so we have 296 students who didnt take the usmle that went into the nrmp. 516 DID NOT MATCH (31.2% DO applicants). just so we are on the same page, that means only 68.8% matched into allopathic residencies and 86.2% of DO nrmp applicants had taken the usmle. now there is no data that will break up how many DO students got into an allopathic residency with just the comlex, but these numbers show that they ALL could very well be within the 516 that didnt match.

i think the main part where your whole arguement went caput was where you thought that 50% of DO's matched into allopathic residencies. so my question to you is..... where in the world did you pick up that 50% DO students are in allopathic residencies?

maybe time to ask you "friend" about more statistics before claiming my "personal" experience in the topic lacking. my uncle's friend of a friend told me that valuemd has become a place of misinformation :p.

ill understand if you conveniently dont post on this thread again :twisted: j/k.

[Scott1981]

one more thing runzhouse, just because im bored tonight ill show you a response from a residency program. not too hard to ontain this response either. i guess your friend wasnt quite up to date on more figures. you stated that residency programs are "required" to accept comlex scores? wrong again. feel free to contact them.
ahh, the misinformation all over valuemd is killing me :roll:.

Dear Applicant:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the University of Colorado Pediatric Residency Program located at The Children's Hospital in Denver, Colorado.

All applicants must have completed and passed Steps 1 and 2 of the USMLE. (We do not accept COMLEX scores.) Although we do not have an absolute minimum board score requirement, applicants should be aware that this is a highly competitive program. All International Medical Graduates (IMG) must be certified by the Education Council for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG), and obtain a J1 Visa. All applicants, U.S. and IMG, must have at least 6 months of clinical experience in an accredited U.S. or Canadian teaching hospital. This might include observation-only experiences in which the student participates only verbally in the care of patients because of local medical-legal issues, depending on the individual experience. Letters of recommendation from these clinical experiences are essential.

We will only be accepting applications through the ERAS system for the match and will not consider paper applications. Applications must be submitted by November 1st. We require 3 letters of recommendation, a Dean's letter, official transcripts from Medical School and USMLE scores to complete the application.

Once your application is complete, it will be reviewed and applicants who qualify for an interview will be notified by mid-November.

Program Requirements
ERAS-completed application, which includes:


Personal Statement

CV

Dean's Letter

USMLE Board Scores

Three Letters of Recommendation

Official Medical School Transcript








Thank you for your interest in our program.

For further information, please check our website at: http://www.uchsc.edu/peds/meded/residency/ (http://www.uchsc.edu/peds/meded/residency/)


For any additional information, please contact:

Medical Education Office
The Children's Hospital, B-158
1056 East 19th Avenue
Denver, Colorado 80218


(303) 861-6738 Denver Metro Area
E-mail: PedResPro@tchden.org

[ronmexico]

i think the old school docs would have alot more negs. to say about DO's.
But just to play devils advocate:

DO's positive points:
1. residency programs know they are getting an "american, english" speaking person, which goes a long way with pt care/customer service.
2. all DO's do there clinicals in the U.S. (know system)
3. if you fail your USMLE, there's a safety net called COMLEX
4. same opportunity to obtain primary care, seen a bunch in ER, some in OB/GYN

my personal feeling is I've noticed several new DO schools pop up in the last few years. I think they are trying to combat FMGs for the primary care spots. there offering an alternative to programs which prefer maybe americans esp. to put in rural areas, or areas which are hard to be accepted into the community. I also think given the right training program, you don't have to be a genius to operate as a primary care physican in the private sector (not knocking the field, I myself am applying for FP or Psy).
The "one up-ers'" of the world are always going to try to show you up.
ie DO or FMG, small US school vs. big US school, big US school vs IVY,
Joe Smith vs. Pardeet Depaak, etc.., i think you get my point.

The bottom line is the USMLE is the equalizer

...BUT on the same note

there not an M.D>:)

[Scott1981]

Residents (http://www.halifaxfprp.org/resident.htm)
now the final peice of the arguement. there are two very big DO schools in the state of florida. this is a snapshot of a pretty competitve non-opposed FP program in the state. however, all but 2 are from from LCME allopathic schools. you want to know where the 2 non lcme people went? ROSS and SGU.

there are ZERO DO's in the program from top to bottom. and please dont tell me that no DO's applied there in the last 3 years or they didnt rank them high. that would be the case if you had a program fully composed of FMG's. you cant say that for one that is majority lcme.

[Scott1981]

now for all my previous posts... dont get me wrong..... i am not anti-DO. i think they are just as capable as MD's just as i think IMG's are just as capable as US MD grads. all that i was trying to point out is that there is a stigma being a DO. it is not as rosy of a path like some have tried to point out on this thread.

[Runzhouse]

Residents (http://www.halifaxfprp.org/resident.htm)
now the final peice of the arguement. there are two very big DO schools in the state of florida. this is a snapshot of a pretty competitve non-opposed FP program in the state. however, all but 2 are from from LCME allopathic schools. you want to know where the 2 non lcme people went? ROSS and SGU.

there are ZERO DO's in the program from top to bottom. and please dont tell me that no DO's applied there in the last 3 years or they didnt rank them high. that would be the case if you had a program fully composed of FMG's. you cant say that for one that is majority lcme.

Scott its great you have so much time, but this is all you can come up with...A Family Practice Residency that is 98% US MD's...here about these:

LSU Neurosurgery:
University Neurosurgery at LSU Health Sciences Center in Shreveport, Louisiana (http://www.universityneurosurgery.com/index.php?submenu=ResidencyProgram&src=directory&view=staff_q&category=Residents)

University of Florida: Orthopedic Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery Residency Program at UF Jacksonville | Current Residents (http://www.hscj.ufl.edu/ortho/osr/residents.asp)

University of Chicago: Anesthesiology (Full of DO's...no IMG's)
DACC - Pictorial Roster - House Staff (http://acc-www.uchicago.edu/PictorialRoster/housestaff/index.html)
If you look closely, those MD's are from Northwestern, Case-Western, Ohio State, UConn...etc...they are from some good schools...that tells you alot about the DO's...

And I can do pretty much what you did but better...Here is a University of Illinois Emergency Medicine Program...It is 60-70% of DO's and the rest US MD's...(Not a 98% US MD dominated Family Practice...there should at least be more Carribbean students than 2 in there)

University of Illinois College of Medicine at Peoria: Resident Physicians (http://www.uicomp.uic.edu/ERRES/main/resident.htm)

Come on...it's foolish to compare residencies because if you have seen DO Matchlists there quite imppressive...factor in the fact that they have their own Neurosurgery, Orthopedic surgery,...etc. its a clear cut advantage,...generally speaking.

Scott if you take a look at the history of thread, your opinions are in the minority, and the fact that this is an IMG dominated site tells you alot about this argument...Try comparing IMG and DO in a neutral or US MD dominated site and that will tell you alot as well. Often times the only thing that a Carrib student can say against the DO's are that "hey, at least we will be MD's"...thats great, but its a shallow excuse...I am a carib student and I didnt come here to get an MD, I came to be a physician and treat those who will need my help...

Oh and I almost forgot...this guys doesnt seem to have a problem:

YouTube - Dr 90210 is a DO

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Scott its great you have so much time, but this is all you can come up with...A Family Practice Residency that is 98% US MD's...here about these:

LSU Neurosurgery:
University Neurosurgery at LSU Health Sciences Center in Shreveport, Louisiana (http://www.universityneurosurgery.com/index.php?submenu=ResidencyProgram&src=directory&view=staff_q&category=Residents)

University of Florida: Orthopedic Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery Residency Program at UF Jacksonville | Current Residents (http://www.hscj.ufl.edu/ortho/osr/residents.asp)

University of Chicago: Anesthesiology (Full of DO's...no IMG's)
DACC - Pictorial Roster - House Staff (http://acc-www.uchicago.edu/PictorialRoster/housestaff/index.html)
If you look closely, those MD's are from Northwestern, Case-Western, Ohio State, UConn...etc...they are from some good schools...that tells you alot about the DO's...

And I can do pretty much what you did but better...Here is a University of Illinois Emergency Medicine Program...It is 60-70% of DO's and the rest US MD's...(Not a 98% US MD dominated Family Practice...there should at least be more Carribbean students than 2 in there)

University of Illinois College of Medicine at Peoria: Resident Physicians (http://www.uicomp.uic.edu/ERRES/main/resident.htm)

Come on...it's foolish to compare residencies because if you have seen DO Matchlists there quite imppressive...factor in the fact that they have their own Neurosurgery, Orthopedic surgery,...etc. its a clear cut advantage,...generally speaking.

Scott if you take a look at the history of thread, your opinions are in the minority, and the fact that this is an IMG dominated site tells you alot about this argument...Try comparing IMG and DO in a neutral or US MD dominated site and that will tell you alot as well. Often times the only thing that a Carrib student can say against the DO's are that "hey, at least we will be MD's"...thats great, but its a shallow excuse...I am a carib student and I didnt come here to get an MD, I came to be a physician and treat those who will need my help...

Oh and I almost forgot...this guys doesnt seem to have a problem:

YouTube - Dr 90210 is a DO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ziqfv-8-3x0)

I'll stay neutral to the argument. But I will say that at the places you stated...the residents who got into fellowships after their residency were most likely MD.

[Scott1981]

runzhouse, i showed you one example. it can be easy to find others that support my arguement and i will when i get a little more time....gotta run errands today. my arguement was never that there were NO programs out there like that which were more DO friendly than IMG. my arguement was that there were some programs like I showed that were more IMG friendly than DO. just showing that there are both ends of the spectrum which I was successful in doing. we can go on and on with this and come up with examples of each.

ive said it in the past, my main point was that DO's dont have so much of an easier path than IMG's. just look at the match list of some middle/lower tier DO schools. they are quite comparable to AUC/ROSS/SGU.

man, your turning it into a DO vs IMG thread. there are loads of them on here and you can do a search if thats what you want. go and browse the SDN forums for more added fun, but im glad they moderate those threads more.

you only concentrated on one point of your/my arguement. what happened to your main arguement about DO's not having to take the USMLE for nrmp? you seemed to have made such a big deal about it before and even posted lots of stats (which didnt add up :roll:). it looks like i showed you proof that you were the one misinformed on that subject. what happened to your misinformation that hospitals are REQUIRED to take the COMLEX? i can understand why you would just concentrate on the DO friendly program part of the arguement and act as if i was actually argueing that they didnt exist :lol:.

lastly, where did i ever say that DO's were less capable as DO's? im not going to get into this DO vs IMG garbage, because it goes nowhere. i dont base my opinions on what others think. you should know that there are loads of people in the big 3 who turned down DO acceptances. why dont you do a search in this forum or even the sdn forum. you will get more information than you ever could want on the DO hassles when doing allopathic residencies. there are things to consider as geographic area and there are 5 big states that require you to do an extra year of an ostepathic intern. a waiver is not that as easy to get as it was a few years ago. anyway.... getting off track here..... DO A SEARCH.

[Runzhouse]

runzhouse, i showed you one example. it can be easy to find others that support my arguement and i will when i get a little more time....gotta run errands today. my arguement was never that there were NO programs out there like that which were more DO friendly than IMG. my arguement was that there were some programs like I showed that were more IMG friendly than DO. just showing that there are both ends of the spectrum which I was successful in doing. we can go on and on with this and come up with examples of each.

ive said it in the past, my main point was that DO's dont have so much of an easier path than IMG's. just look at the match list of some middle/lower tier DO schools. they are quite comparable to AUC/ROSS/SGU.

man, your turning it into a DO vs IMG thread. there are loads of them on here and you can do a search if thats what you want. go and browse the SDN forums for more added fun, but im glad they moderate those threads more.

you only concentrated on one point of your/my arguement. what happened to your main arguement about DO's not having to take the USMLE for nrmp? you seemed to have made such a big deal about it before and even posted lots of stats (which didnt add up :roll:). it looks like i showed you proof that you were the one misinformed on that subject. what happened to your misinformation that hospitals are REQUIRED to take the COMLEX? i can understand why you would just concentrate on the DO friendly program part of the arguement and act as if i was actually argueing that they didnt exist :lol:.

lastly, where did i ever say that DO's were less capable as DO's? im not going to get into this DO vs IMG garbage, because it goes nowhere. i dont base my opinions on what others think. you should know that there are loads of people in the big 3 who turned down DO acceptances. why dont you do a search in this forum or even the sdn forum. you will get more information than you ever could want on the DO hassles when doing allopathic residencies. there are things to consider as geographic area and there are 5 big states that require you to do an extra year of an ostepathic intern. a waiver is not that as easy to get as it was a few years ago. anyway.... getting off track here..... DO A SEARCH.

first of all I never meant for this to get into some DO or IMG thing...there arent even any DO's in this site????....You posted a bunch of stuff so I felt that I had to do the same (sorta of competition thing I guess...), so in the end we get back to where we started, realizing we didnt disagree much at all in the first place...I never said, it's sooo much easier for DO's...I just said that it is easier overall (by how much...nobody can say)...you said yourself that carrib is comparable to the middle/lower tier DO schools, which I believe is true...so no disagreement there. You cant argue about DO hassles doing allopathic residency if you come from the Carrib...there are hassles here too that I would rather not deal with...And for the COMLEX, I never said DO's didnt have to take the USMLE...if I remember correctly, I was merely saying that if they didnt want to, they had a choice (Many programs take COMLEX only, and DO programs dont require it obviously)...It is still my understanding that all Residency programs are required to at least look at COMLEX scores...but a few still suggest that they take the USMLE for comparison purposes. So in end it again doesnt matter. Once your in practice nobody cares either way...

[Scott1981]

in the end, its a personal choice. more like the vanilla vs chocolate ice cream arguement. one person's choice is not the other person's choice. however, there have been some that chastise anybody who chooses carib over DO (not you, but others have on this thread). i guess thats what really gets annoying. anyway, its unfortunate that carib and DO do face extra hurdles, but like you said, it wont matter once all this mishmosh is finished with and we are out practicing.

[dunsoon]

Aaaah, THAT Dr. P. Actually, I did enjoy his lectures... very much to the bewilderment of my friends. But my true inspiration was my mother who is a pathologist. That and I don't want to have to see patients or work too hard and I want to make plenty of cashola. Hee hee.

[jaywalk81]

for a second i thought it was dr. B who inspired you.

[dunsoon]

No comment.:shock:

[Ishie1013]

Aaaah, THAT Dr. P. Actually, I did enjoy his lectures... very much to the bewilderment of my friends. But my true inspiration was my mother who is a pathologist. That and I don't want to have to see patients or work too hard and I want to make plenty of cashola. Hee hee.

Awww, who wouldn't? Dr. P is awesome. "This campus isn't built for people; it's built for goats!"

[jaywalk81]

never remember him saying that, but he loves canniliculi, and uses the word/phrase "recapitulate" and "walt disney version" often

[hotdog]

"worthy of a wall hanging"

".... change faster than my wife could rearrange furnitures"

"look at that puppy"

"Walt Disney version"

And yes Ishie, he did gave the class back some points after the low average from the Unified.

[dunsoon]

I can't look at a duct or talk about ducts without thinking of Dr. P..."If it looks like a duct, quacks like a duct..."

[USIMG2011]

Definitely go for an Osteopathic program over any foreign school, after a US MD it is the next most viable option.

[basupran]

I chose the MD because I suffer from vowelophobia, and osteopathic has 5 vowels vs the 4 in medicine. Honestly, what does it matter what other people think...weigh the relative advantages/disadvantages of each, and choose for yourself.

[wizard17]

I will try to give as non-biased a view as possible.

My background - one year in a DO school, working with DO docs in patient care settings, getting experience as a DO student.


Everyone will tell you that a DO is equal to an MD, except the following people:

1) Old DO doctors will always say that DOs are better. This is a problem because they make up the "congress", if you will, of DO legislation. They retain their philosophy by only allowing DO doc who have only been to a DO residency to become a voting member. This seems fine except when you find out that they are largely the single greatest reason the DO community is not seen in as highly a regarded light as the MD community. They make every attempt to distinguish themselves from MDs to the point of being ridiculous. I do understand their motives and with the DO history in mind, there is obviously a lot of resentment towards the MD community, and they may even fear a merger.

2) Old MD doctors will almost always say that DOs are substandard.

3) Most non-doctor medical personnel have somehow come to taking a liking to making fun of DO doctors. I am still not exactly sure why that has happend, but generally it is true. It is pretty degrading to overhear nurses making fun of you for being in a DO school. You think, Like what in the world?? This still baffles me.

Outside of these 3 groups of ppl, there will be very few who know what a DO even is, but of those that do, they generally have a very high regard for DOs. Apparently DOs have tended towards getting a slightly more positive doctor - patient relationship developed. Why that is is still actually being studied.

RESIDENCIES

With regard to residencies, MDs can currently "only" go to MD residencies, but DOs are allowed to technically go to DO or MD residencies. This is why you may see impressive residency lists for DO schools getting derm or ns because the student get a DO derm or DO ns position. I looked it up a year ago, there was one DO student who got an MD-NS position about 3 yrs ago, apparently because he knew someone. No DO has since gotten one. Generally, DO residencies are considered in not as high regard as MD residencies. This is not 100% true, but generally it is as most MD residencies tend to be tied into universities and get huge amounts of funding and do a great deal of research (look at the DO NS residencies - one year shorter because they do no extra year of research that MD NS residencies require).

Currently we are in a time of a great amount of change on a very broad range of topics in the USA Medical world, what appears to be developing for the DO community seems to be a positive trend.

Beyond this, I will make no attempt to say one is better than the other, no one can really make that call. There are 100s of other issues to consider and you should do a great deal of research on the issues before coming to conclusions.

[nyphys1]

As as far as practicing outside the US..MD-DO
1-Having an MD degree in itself does in no way qualify you to practice in most foreign countries.It is often a very complicated process getting
practice privileges outside the US.
2-Few who say they want to practice abroad will ever really do so given the many problems associated with that plan.ie..redtape,economics,licensing issues
3-Though uncommon there are DOs who do practice outside the US. so it can be done for the rare highly motivated individual.
Its likely that around 95% or more of US citizen physicians will practice in the US during their careers so that should be the primary issue for most in considering education options.

[IvanMDMD]

As as far as practicing outside the US..MD-DO
1-Having an MD degree in itself does in no way qualify you to practice in most foreign countries.It is often a very complicated process getting
practice privileges outside the US.
2-Few who say they want to practice abroad will ever really do so given the many problems associated with that plan.ie..redtape,economics,licensing issues
3-Though uncommon there are DOs who do practice outside the US. so it can be done for the rare highly motivated individual.
Its likely that around 95% or more of US citizen physicians will practice in the US during their careers so that should be the primary issue for most in considering education options.

How does Dr. Rey practice all over the place? ;) (for those who don't know... Dr. 90210)

He was treating patients in Mexico, Brasil, Venezuela etc...

[hotdog]

Because he's an MD, not a DO.

[GeorgeMD2B]

This is all nonsense, if you can get into an Osteopathic school that is the best alternative to a US MD program. Anyone who values any offshore program over one in the US, is misguided. Foreign medical schools often have very high attrition rates. Some offshore schools boast of high USMLE pass rates but they don't tell you that many of their students failed out before even getting to that stage.

[wizard17]

This is all nonsense, if you can get into an Osteopathic school that is the best alternative to a US MD program. Anyone who values any offshore program over one in the US, is misguided. Foreign medical schools often have very high attrition rates. Some offshore schools boast of high USMLE pass rates but they don't tell you that many of their students failed out before even getting to that stage.

This is all true.

However, perhaps consider that a student who is dedicated and would have been accepted to a DO program may have just as high a likelyhood of a successful outcome at a carib school. This is heresay however, there are no real studies for either side to boast.

[GeorgeMD2B]

Still, going offshore should be a last resort. And people who would actually insinuate that a Caribbean MD or any other foreign MD is better than a US DO are delusional. Attrition is really not an issue at DO schools, the offshore program that I attend has fairly low attrition but it caters to mainly students who want to work in the country where the school is located.

[stephew]

This is all nonsense, if you can get into an Osteopathic school that is the best alternative to a US MD program. Anyone who values any offshore program over one in the US, is misguided. Foreign medical schools often have very high attrition rates. Some offshore schools boast of high USMLE pass rates but they don't tell you that many of their students failed out before even getting to that stage.

its not all true. some offshore school are better options to some DO schools, and vice versa. A little learning is a dangerous thing and sweeping statments like the above are a good example.

[DOCplucinski]

Still, going offshore should be a last resort. And people who would actually insinuate that a Caribbean MD or any other foreign MD is better than a US DO are delusional. Attrition is really not an issue at DO schools, the offshore program that I attend has fairly low attrition but it caters to mainly students who want to work in the country where the school is located.
so your off-shore program you attend was your last resort?

[stephew]

its a fallacy as a sweeping statmeent though true in comparison to many individual schools. but people love to split and make things simplistic. trouble is it only appeals to the simplistic types, not anyone with a degree of sence of industry to actually inform themselves. much like politics.

[swimguy23]

this thread is still going on

crap people..... i was working right along side an intern who was a DO for the past few weeks.....we were both called Dr.....we were both as clueless as the other when things got out of our control.....to make it better my us grad colleagues were also as clueless when things got out of their control. I'm called Dr, he's called Dr, and my us grad colleagues are called Dr.....

[stephew]

i think the issue has to do with the ability to get to the Dr. part.

[dunsoon]

You get permission from the government. Lots of doctors practice abroad for charity work - that's different than moving somewhere and hanging up your shingle. Also, developing and underserved countries will tend to be more accepting of visiting docs than, say, England or New Zealand.

[GeorgeMD2B]

its not all true. some offshore school are better options to some DO schools, and vice versa. A little learning is a dangerous thing and sweeping statments like the above are a good example.
Name some offshore programs that are better than DO schools, please don't mention a Caribbean school. As I mentioned before, most Caribbean schools have very high attrition, so many people who go there will get kicked out and having nothing but debt.
Yes, I picked my Australian school as a last resort but it turned out that I like Australia a lot more than the US and have no intention to return to the States, so it turned out to be a good choice. Most people who are on this website want to work in the US, so their situation differs.
Maybe a Canadian MD might be better than a DO, since Canadian schools have high admission standards, and some programs are more selective than even Harvard or Hopkins.

[stephew]

name some offshore programs but dont mention a caribbean school? Those ARE the offshore programs. Sorry you dont like that I disagree with you but I do.

[DOCplucinski]

Name some offshore programs that are better than DO schools, please don't mention a Caribbean school.
so are you saying that EVERY single DO school in the US is better than let's say SGU? i'm sorry but that's a serious statement there and would be pretty hard to backup.

[stephew]

that's the beauty of it. not having to be responsible for your assertions. so if you dont mind appealing to the lowest denominator, sure its a nice ploy. set the bar low.

[Scott1981]

i think george missed a major point here that was mentioned. he seemed to emphasize "attrition rates" at offshore schools. however, if a student is actually in the position to make a choice between DO and carib (i.e. already accepted at both), it pretty safe to say that this student is strong enough academically to succeed at any option (even at ross with their bad attrition reputation/rumor). thus, his most recent blanket statement about caribbean schools would be moot.

one thing that is interesting, i have an interview at my #1 choice residency program. if i was a US md grad, it would still be my #1 residency program. if i was a DO grad, it would also be my #1 program (although i would have to break the ice and become the first DO in the program). how is that for a blanket statement :lol:.

[GeorgeMD2B]

From what I know SGU is probably the best IMG route to the USA that I know of, still if you are going overseas by choice, I really think it is ill advised. I think any foreign school is going to be a risk whether it is in Australia, UK, Europe, Caribbean, etc.
Obviously if you don't get into a US program, then going abroad is the option for you. But from my own experience, I think If I did it again, I would have considered Osteopathic programs, especially from the point of view of financial aid and scholarships, one of my old friends in college went to a program in Chicago and got a very big scholarship from the state of Illinois to work in an area of need after graduation.
Stats of most SGU students are similar to those of your typical DO program. Most people who matriculated at the various DO programs had MCATs in the high 20's 3.3-3.4 range GPAs.
The DO route is not an easy one either but at least you are still within the US and don't have the double pressure of living in an alien environment(In my case the alien environment was a welcome change, coming from cold and windy Chicago to sunny Australia with some of the best coastline on the planet was a dream come true.)

[billydoc]

I know "go D.O" is not a very popular statement on VMD. This site has most of us who are either IMGs or still in foreign schools. I've posted on this subject a lot in the similar threads, and have really nothing new to add. But I'll say it again...if you have even a slightest chance of staying in U.S be it MD or D.O school...just grab it. Buy American ;) :D if you know what I mean. I know that many off shore programs are excellent, and have a fruit on the tree to prove it. I'm not denying many success stories out of carib or elsewhere. But with more and more D.O schools expanding it's a far safer route as of now. You will be competing with these newly minted D.Os in 3-4 years come residency time. Most ppl who advocate for Carib route in this thread have either became an attending, resident, or at least about to be done with the med school. But you can't see it now, b/c new D.O schools have nobody in the match yet. Unless residency programs will have expended you will see the "Titanic" factor. D.O s being an "iceberg" IMHO. Anyway, that's how I see it. Don't want to produce a mass hysteria here, but that's how I view the future.

[stephew]

you would be wrong on that count. the issue is NOT choosing a non- North american allopathic school over a N.A. school. its disingenous to even suggest it. these are alternatives to not getting into the US/Canadien Allo schools. dont confuse the issues.And fyi, while it may be nice to compare incoming stats, that is not the only or even best way to compare schools. Anyway it seems like youre backing off the "All DO over IMG" stance which is smart as it was a broad incorrect statement.

I think any foreign school is going to be a risk whether it is in Australia, UK, Europe, Caribbean, etc.
Obviously if you don't get into a US program, then going abroad is the option for you.

[grayeyes043]

To answer the OP's question.

The reason many people chose Caribbean over Doctor of Osteopathy is for the following reasons:

1. GPA/MCAT scores are not good enough.
2. Can't wait...person may want to start within months not within a year.
3. DO is not respected in the person region.
4. Don't want to take the MCAT and don't want to incur exorbitant amount of debt.
5. Met doctors from the caribbean who were awesome and decided to follow that route.
6. Want to become a doctor and willing to do anything (legally) that will get them a M.D. degree.

My reasons are closer to the 1, 2, 5, and 6.

I just wanted to add my 0.02 cents in the mix.

[CANeh]

Main Reasons to go MD (My opinion)

1. D.O. is a pseudo-profession and should not be around. One is either a baseball player or is not. You can't be a baseball player, but call yourself a round-thingy-player.

2. Don't want to waste time learning manipulation when it doesn't really do much to what I want to do in the future (Not manipulation).

3. Don't want to be labeled as a round-thingy-player (DO) for the rest of my professional life and have to explain what that is exactly (see 1).

4. Would rather learn real biochemistry and the hard core sciences. Don't need a separate exam, for round-thingy-players (DO) only.

5. Don't need to run around and try and get my own rotation set up. Don't need to be limited osteopathic rotations. They are the baby ones... less work.. less exposure... = less training and less of a doctor.

6. for the amount of tuition they are charging, might as well go and do the real thing. MD and not the thing that is like an MD, but is not an MD. (nothing to do with professional practice).

7. Don't need to play the guilt card/ victimized because of the past. MDs preventing DOs practicing with them.. etc... Of course they did, and in some cases they should. I shadowed a few DOs and I was surprised to see the subtle differences between MDs and DOs.

8. Don't want to be labeled as a primary care physician... that is what 99.999999% of them are.

These and many more explanations are my opinions and observations. I others can have their own.

[rokshana]

you are incorrect on many of your points caneh

Main Reasons to go MD (My opinion)

1. D.O. is a pseudo-profession and should not be around. One is either a baseball player or is not. You can't be a baseball player, but call yourself a round-thingy-player.

this is an idea you will need to soon get over if you want to practice in the US (don't know about Canada)- there will be many DOs that will work alongside of you and many even be in charge of you- remember many people nowadays go the DO route because they too could not get into a US school

2. Don't want to waste time learning manipulation when it doesn't really do much to what I want to do in the future (Not manipulation).

well this one is probably true- while many DO won't use OMM in practice- would be pain to have to add this extra subject on top of the others

3. Don't want to be labeled as a round-thingy-player (DO) for the rest of my professional life and have to explain what that is exactly (see 1).
i think, really, this is probably the #1 reason why people don't go DO.

4. Would rather learn real biochemistry and the hard core sciences. Don't need a separate exam, for round-thingy-players (DO) only.

have you looked at the curriculum at a DO schoo? It is, aside for OMM, identical to most allo curriculula- they study the same sciences we do- and we don't study the hardcore sciences anymore either (those are chem and physics- thank God no more of that!).

5. Don't need to run around and try and get my own rotation set up. Don't need to be limited osteopathic rotations. They are the baby ones... less work.. less exposure... = less training and less of a doctor.
HAHAHAHAHA! you obviously have NOT gone rotations yet! At sgu we dont't run around setting up 3rd year cores, but other schools do, and i swear half my free time in 3rd yr was spent lookin around for unaffliated rotations and waiting for affliated school secretaries (esp that one at St. Mike's!!) to get back to me about setting up my 4th year!
And take a guess at who we rotate with at many of our hospitals? Yep! DO students!! UNE, Tuoro, Kirksville, NYCOM...all rotate alongside us and US students from Mt Sinai, Cornell, Drexel...if they are getting sub-par educations, then so are we...

8. Don't want to be labeled as a primary care physician... that is what 99.999999% of them are.

not really true- remember they have their own residencies as well as occupy spots in allo residencies- their representation in specialties is probably the same as ours-~70% or so...

there are many valid reasons to pick on over the other...but be realistic, it is not MD=good, DO=bad, its a gray zone....

[CANeh]

Rokshana, don't get terribly offended by you know you could be annoying at times.

I stated my post my saying "its my opinion". I did not say its the Bible.

Those who choose DO are still respectable in my eyes, because they can put up with some of the crap. I have friends who are doing DO school right now and YES, I do compare curriculum.





you are incorrect on many of your points caneh



this is an idea you will need to soon get over if you want to practice in the US (don't know about Canada)- there will be many DOs that will work alongside of you and many even be in charge of you- remember many people nowadays go the DO route because they too could not get into a US school



well this one is probably true- while many DO won't use OMM in practice- would be pain to have to add this extra subject on top of the others


i think, really, this is probably the #1 reason why people don't go DO.



have you looked at the curriculum at a DO schoo? It is, aside for OMM, identical to most allo curriculula- they study the same sciences we do- and we don't study the hardcore sciences anymore either (those are chem and physics- thank God no more of that!).


HAHAHAHAHA! you obviously have NOT gone rotations yet! At sgu we dont't run around setting up 3rd year cores, but other schools do, and i swear half my free time in 3rd yr was spent lookin around for unaffliated rotations and waiting for affliated school secretaries (esp that one at St. Mike's!!) to get back to me about setting up my 4th year!
And take a guess at who we rotate with at many of our hospitals? Yep! DO students!! UNE, Tuoro, Kirksville, NYCOM...all rotate alongside us and US students from Mt Sinai, Cornell, Drexel...if they are getting sub-par educations, then so are we...



not really true- remember they have their own residencies as well as occupy spots in allo residencies- their representation in specialties is probably the same as ours-~70% or so...

there are many valid reasons to pick on over the other...but be realistic, it is not MD=good, DO=bad, its a gray zone....

[rokshana]

Rokshana, don't get terribly offended by you know you could be annoying at times.

I stated my post my saying "its my opinion". I did not say its the Bible.

Those who choose DO are still respectable in my eyes, because they can put up with some of the feces. I have friends who are doing DO school right now and YES, I do compare curriculum.


lol- don't worry, i'm not! But to annoy you a bit more...

you're right, opinion is fine and dandy, but that is like saying , "i'm not a bigot, but..." at times...

# 2,3,6,7,and 8 are easily opinions, but 4,5, and the % in 8- are misconceptions- , esp 5 (clincials is not necessarily the most organized part of the sgu experience).

[GeorgeMD2B]

Whatever, I know DOs are getting a lot more recognition and the attitude towards IMGs is becoming more malignant. Even the argument that an MD will allow you to practice abroad is moot because it is very difficult for physicians to cross borders. Unlike Nursing, training for MDs varies considerably across countries.

[ecela7]

To answer the OP's question.

The reason many people chose Caribbean over Doctor of Osteopathy is for the following reasons:

1. GPA/MCAT scores are not good enough.
2. Can't wait...person may want to start within months not within a year.
3. DO is not respected in the person region.
4. Don't want to take the MCAT and don't want to incur exorbitant amount of debt.
5. Met doctors from the caribbean who were awesome and decided to follow that route.
6. Want to become a doctor and willing to do anything (legally) that will get them a M.D. degree.

My reasons are closer to the 1, 2, 5, and 6.

I just wanted to add my 0.02 cents in the mix.

your #4 'part B', please read my earlier post as an example. Do with it what you will....

[ecela7]

Main Reasons to go MD (My opinion)

1. D.O. is a pseudo-profession and should not be around. One is either a baseball player or is not. You can't be a baseball player, but call yourself a round-thingy-player.

2. Don't want to waste time learning manipulation when it doesn't really do much to what I want to do in the future (Not manipulation).

3. Don't want to be labeled as a round-thingy-player (DO) for the rest of my professional life and have to explain what that is exactly (see 1).

4. Would rather learn real biochemistry and the hard core sciences. Don't need a separate exam, for round-thingy-players (DO) only.

5. Don't need to run around and try and get my own rotation set up. Don't need to be limited osteopathic rotations. They are the baby ones... less work.. less exposure... = less training and less of a doctor.

6. for the amount of tuition they are charging, might as well go and do the real thing. MD and not the thing that is like an MD, but is not an MD. (nothing to do with professional practice).

7. Don't need to play the guilt card/ victimized because of the past. MDs preventing DOs practicing with them.. etc... Of course they did, and in some cases they should. I shadowed a few DOs and I was surprised to see the subtle differences between MDs and DOs.

8. Don't want to be labeled as a primary care physician... that is what 99.999999% of them are.

These and many more explanations are my opinions and observations. I others can have their own.

To #5 and #8....WOW !!

[dunsoon]

Main Reasons to go MD (My opinion)

1. D.O. is a pseudo-profession and should not be around. One is either a baseball player or is not. You can't be a baseball player, but call yourself a round-thingy-player.

2. Don't want to waste time learning manipulation when it doesn't really do much to what I want to do in the future (Not manipulation).

3. Don't want to be labeled as a round-thingy-player (DO) for the rest of my professional life and have to explain what that is exactly (see 1).

4. Would rather learn real biochemistry and the hard core sciences. Don't need a separate exam, for round-thingy-players (DO) only.

5. Don't need to run around and try and get my own rotation set up. Don't need to be limited osteopathic rotations. They are the baby ones... less work.. less exposure... = less training and less of a doctor.

6. for the amount of tuition they are charging, might as well go and do the real thing. MD and not the thing that is like an MD, but is not an MD. (nothing to do with professional practice).

7. Don't need to play the guilt card/ victimized because of the past. MDs preventing DOs practicing with them.. etc... Of course they did, and in some cases they should. I shadowed a few DOs and I was surprised to see the subtle differences between MDs and DOs.

8. Don't want to be labeled as a primary care physician... that is what 99.999999% of them are.

These and many more explanations are my opinions and observations. I others can have their own.

Ok, you are calling Rokshana annoying for disagreeing with you and, God forbid, expressing her own opinion?? Very strange and illogical for someone making such strong and opinionated statements (some of which are incorrect) in a public forum. Here's my opinon:

#1 is an outrageous statement and belies your lack of professionalism. If you continue to espouse your belief that DO is a "psuedo-profession", get ready for criticism and bad professional relationships. Have you told your friends who are in DO school that they are striving to become members of a "psuedo-profession"?? Let's see how long they will stay your friends given your disdain for their chosen careers. And given your belief that they are not educated properly and are not really doctors and their profession should be abolished, you should probably avoid all residency programs or hospitals that hire DOs because it would conflict with your personal belief system about DOs to work in such a place. Good luck with that.

#5 is just plain WRONG, as is #8. And I got news for you...you go to a Caribbean school and you ARE labeled as someone heading for primary care. Who in their right mind considers a carib med school to be a place for breeding specialists?? Don't think you're gaining some sort of prestige or cache by going to a carib med school vs DO. I'm sure there are plenty of US and Canadian MDs and DOs out there who think we've gotten a "psuedo-MD" by going off shore. After all, we are rejects of our own medical systems. That goes for you too.