DC works 2 jobs to pay off debt

[azskeptic]

Chiropractor works 2 jobs to chip away at $165,000 in school debt - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/credit/2006-11-26-young-debt-schopp-profile_x.htm?csp=34)

[oldschool]

There will always be successes and failures in any profession; however, in this case she is working about as a much as medical resident and earning about the same that a resident would. I suspect after 3-4 years in practice she will be pretty much on par for about $100,000 or so.

The first few years out of school are often very challenging for DCs because they are unwilling to move to underserved areas. So many want to stay in and around the city where they went to chiropractic school, which are always very saturated areas.

[DrRick]

sound about right.... reimbursement is not getting any better. It is always tough when you get out of school.

[EthanHunter]

But MD doesnt have 50+% drop out of the profession after three years post-grad. How do u explain this? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Let be real Chiropractic wont work or get any legitimacy, if you guys still have people running around Walmart, swap-meet, or God's know where to try get patients. Man, those spinal screening is real objective. I have never seen so many people who getting diagnosis of scoliosis or spinal misalignment in my life hahhaha. Oh, how exactly does putting ur vitamins sublingually effect ur muscles fibers again? I didnt know neuromusculo junction using vitamins to contract. Last time i check with some guy named Guyton, it's using sequested intraCalcium to start actin and myosin contraction. Oh, don't get me start it on subluxation complex using neuron model! Have u guys proof that subluxation exist yet? It's only like 200 years already rite. Just go to medical schools and be happy that u can actually help people with real disease. Good luck to all D.C. Much love. Long live BJ Palmer maybe ur profession flourish like flowers in spring.

[Diva]

But MD doesnt have 50+% drop out of the profession after three years post-grad. How do u explain this? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Let be real Chiropractic wont work or get any legitimacy, if you guys still have people running around Walmart, swap-meet, or God's know where to try get patients. Man, those spinal screening is real objective. I have never seen so many people who getting diagnosis of scoliosis or spinal misalignment in my life hahhaha. Oh, how exactly does putting ur vitamins sublingually effect ur muscles fibers again? I didnt know neuromusculo junction using vitamins to contract. Last time i check with some guy named Guyton, it's using sequested intraCalcium to start actin and myosin contraction. Oh, don't get me start it on subluxation complex using neuron model! Have u guys proof that subluxation exist yet? It's only like 200 years already rite. Just go to medical schools and be happy that u can actually help people with real disease. Good luck to all D.C. Much love. Long live BJ Palmer maybe ur profession flourish like flowers in spring.

Thats a very closed minded observation...have you read enough literature to make such an observation?
Not all chiropractors claim to be able to treat everything.....
And not all work 2 jobs to pay off debt...some make out just fine 200+ easily....whatever it is you do, u just have to be good at it, and love what you do. For some people, its chiropractic....those who went into it for the right reasons.

Notice how chiropractors dont knock anyone? ( At least the ones confidant in their work)
Grow up, make ur own living, dont worry about anyone else. There is no need to talk badly of any other profession...its unprofessional, and ignorant.
Everyone is trying to make a living just like you. There is no need to be so arrogant about it.

[EthanHunter]

well instead saying that i m unprofessional and ignorant why dont u address specific issues about what i typed? Like about the stat 50% of all recent graduated chiro will leave the profession after 3 years? I got that from ACA newsletter in 1999. Where did u get ur sources? How about reference for me any double-blind study that prove that subluxation complex exist? Correct me if i m wrong isnt subluxation complex is the whole foundation of chiropractic? Since i m so poorly read, please show me the scientific research that proof that. Can you use actual physiology to explain your chiropractic techniques to me? Like; AK, BEST, NET, Gonstead, and diversify? Oohs, since i m so poorly read, i actually take the time to read up on ur chiro techniques. Oh one last question from a very ignorant man, please enlight me how does plain film X-ray diagnosis subluxation complex? By subluxation complex i mean the definition by chiropractic of misalignment of joint, not the AMA def of subluxation ie, dislocation. Can you reference to any JMPT article? I am so eager await for that. Maybe u can go to SCUHS radiology department, and ask them to find it for you. However, I would not hold my breath, if i was you. Because if you hold your breath you will go to hypoxic states, which cause vasoconstriction in ur pulmonary lungs vascularures leading to pulmonary hypertension, loud and narrow S2, and right ventricle hypertrophy. Oh wait your brain cant handle more than 5min without oxygen, so i was wrong. In my defense, I am poorly-read and ignorant. Please enlight me with the previous questions i opposed to you.

[EthanHunter]

Since i m so poorly-read on this subject, please read it and enlight me!
Accreditor Implicated in Chiropractic College Overutilization Scam, Faces Hearing with US Department of Education

The Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE), the professional accrediting body for every chiropractic professional school in the United States, has been summoned to an upcoming meeting of the U.S. Department of Education to answer questions regarding several unaddressed complaints which pertain to its renewal of recognition with the agency.

Washington, DC (PRWEB) May 18, 2006 -- The Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE), the sole accrediting body for all chiropractic schools in the United States, faces possible loss of recognition by the U.S. Department of Education (USDOE) arising from its handling of three open complaints pertaining to chiropractic schools accredited by the agency.

The first two complaints were filed in 2003 by the Council of New Jersey Chiropractors (CNJC) and Doctors for Excellence in Chiropractic Education (DECE). In the DECE complaint USDOE found that CCE failed to provide information requested by CNJC and had several conflicts of interest in its Board of Directors which had interfered with accreditation decisions. The outcome of the second complaint by CNJC has not yet been determined.

The third and most serious complaint was filed in 2004 by a 1996 graduate of the Life University College of Chiropractic named Allen Botnick from Plainfield, NJ. Dr. Botnick established that CCE violated USDOE accreditation requirements by not investigating his complaint in a fair and timely manner after nine months had passed without the agency taking action on a complaint pertaining to Life University in Marietta, Georgia. The complaint detailed numerous violations at the school including: the use of anti-medical propaganda in course texts, unapproved diagnosis procedures, exaggeration of the benefits of chiropractic care, overutilization of x-rays, inadequate clinical experiences, unqualified faculty and the promotion of unethical practice management procedures. After discovering the problems Dr. Botnick surrendered all chiropractic licenses. He refuses to practice, stating that his education did not teach him to identify and treat patient complaints in a safe, effective and ethical manner...

[emanon]

Honestly, you sound like a blathering idiot when you go off on your Chiro-bashing rant.

well instead saying that i m unprofessional and ignorant why dont u address specific issues about what i typed? Like about the stat 50% of all recent graduated chiro will leave the profession after 3 years? I got that from ACA newsletter in 1999. Where did u get ur sources?

I would love to see you provide YOUR source. Simply saying that you read it somewhere means absolutely nothing to me.

How about reference for me any double-blind study that prove that subluxation complex exist? Correct me if i m wrong isnt subluxation complex is the whole foundation of chiropractic? You're wrong.

Subluxation complex is an outdated theory that is slowly being phased out by younger, more recent grads. Yes, unfortunately it's still being taught, but more and more DC's are moving away from it in their practice. You're forgetting that Chiropractic as a profession is barely over 100 years old. With only about 40 years of regulated, licensed practice. Medicine used to involve leeches and blood-letting, until some time passed and more research was done. If the AMA wasn't so busy trying to suffocate Chiropractic as a profession, maybe we'd have more federal and state funding to do our research. Instead, DC schools have to rely on private funding for 90% of their research.

Since i m so poorly read, please show me the scientific research that proof that. Can you use actual physiology to explain your chiropractic techniques to me? Like; AK, BEST, NET, Gonstead, and diversify? Oohs, since i m so poorly read, i actually take the time to read up on ur chiro techniques. Again, research is needed to disprove or prove the efficacy of many chiropractic techniques. I can't speak for other doctors, but I can tell you that Diversified is a technique that has been researched and tested for efficacy the most. It addresses musculo-skeltal issues directly, as well as disc and joint dysfunction. If you bothered to actually read up on it, you'd see that it's the most prevalently used technique among DC's.

Oh one last question from a very ignorant man, please enlight me how does plain film X-ray diagnosis subluxation complex? By subluxation complex i mean the definition by chiropractic of misalignment of joint, not the AMA def of subluxation ie, dislocation. Can you reference to any JMPT article? I am so eager await for that. Maybe u can go to SCUHS radiology department, and ask them to find it for you.Why are you so hung up on the whole Subluxation Complex thing? Is that the only thing you know about Chiropractic?

However, I would not hold my breath, if i was you. Because if you hold your breath you will go to hypoxic states, which cause vasoconstriction in ur pulmonary lungs vascularures leading to pulmonary hypertension, loud and narrow S2, and right ventricle hypertrophy. Oh wait your brain cant handle more than 5min without oxygen, so i was wrong. In my defense, I am poorly-read and ignorant. Please enlight me with the previous questions i opposed to you.Wow, you really impressed us all with your "knowledge" of pulmonolgy and cardiology. Was there a particular reason you felt the need to include that?


And as a practicing DC, I can tell you that people like you are a diminishing minority. Open-minded, intelligend MD's are finding out more about spinal manipulaiton and it's benefits for their patients. I work together with PT's, OT's, orthopedists, neurologists and plenty of other PCP's and specialists. And unlike you, they don't feel threatened by another branch of healthcare. They understand that I can help their patients in a way that they cannot. Same goes for me. I know that I'm a musculoskeletal specialist and don't claim that I can cure emphysema or a Baker's cyst with spinal manipulation.


And as far as your claim that half of us leave our profession after three years. Well, out of my class of 80, the class of 120 before me and the class of 100 after me, I know of maybe 10 people that don't practice anymore. And half of them stopped because of injuries, not because they couldn't cut it anymore. I had to bust my *** for the first year or so, just like every new grad does. Consider it our version of residency. Lots of work, little pay.

Like the other poster said. Do your own thing. And spend less time bashing other professions. Do you go off on Podiatrists and Dentists, telling them to go to medical school so they can learn how to treat "real diseases"?

[tjackman]

I was accepted to Life for this summer and put it off for a year. I still have a lot of concerns about the cost of $80,000 or more debt as soon as I graduate. I've been looking at med school for the simple fact that I have more options after medical school than chiropractic school. What else can you do with a DC except chiropractic work. When some medical school cost less than $4000 a semester and takes 3years (same as chiropractic school), why should I choose Chiropractic school?

As for Life University's issues a few years ago, there were personal issues b/w the Dean and someone on the accreditation board. Both were asked to step down and all alligation were unfounded. Some students that semester did leave b/c of the conflicts. I live 8 hours away from the nearest Chiropractic school, yet there are 3 chiroprators in my little town. I don't know how they make a living in this town, but all seem to be doing ok. I think there are starting to be more Chiropractors than before and too many in the same area could be a potiental problem in the near future.

So I heard both sides of the arguement. What should I choose?:confused:

[RuseMD]

I was accepted to Life for this summer and put it off for a year. I still have a lot of concerns about the cost of $80,000 or more debt as soon as I graduate. I've been looking at med school for the simple fact that I have more options after medical school than chiropractic school. What else can you do with a DC except chiropractic work. When some medical school cost less than $4000 a semester and takes 3years (same as chiropractic school), why should I choose Chiropractic school?

As for Life University's issues a few years ago, there were personal issues b/w the Dean and someone on the accreditation board. Both were asked to step down and all alligation were unfounded. Some students that semester did leave b/c of the conflicts. I live 8 hours away from the nearest Chiropractic school, yet there are 3 chiroprators in my little town. I don't know how they make a living in this town, but all seem to be doing ok. I think there are starting to be more Chiropractors than before and too many in the same area could be a potiental problem in the near future.

So I heard both sides of the arguement. What should I choose?:confused:

Sounds like a cat fight! I'm in! I'm sure we might have better things to do than bash the other professions? It's fun but comon, don't they portray themselves as supremely bashable, lol.

[EthanHunter]

You guys can get mad at me all you want, but you guys are avoiding the real issue which all chiropractors must face. The simple fact is where is the standard of practice in the profession? You have chiropractors out there selling everything from vitamins sublingually can be used to diagnosis neuro-muscular conditionns (AK), massaging someone aura to treat low back pain (NET/BEST), to rehab and manipulation. So where is the standard of practice here? U dont expect to go to the dentist office and he will massage your tooth ache away or going to see a podiatrist and he will give you vitamins to treat your gouty foot, do you? You have very good school like SCUHS and then you have others that jz plain old crazy. I know some program teaching there students to not vaccinate their children. Come on! Yes no Vaccination against polio, chicken pox, hep. B or anything. They blamed on the vaccination company for some case of autism, yet research had shown there is no correlation between two. So until you can set a standard of practice where all chiropractors must follow, then you wont get any other profession to respect and accept chiropractic.
About what u guys said before that medicine used blood letting and leaches to treat medical illness. Yes those are all truth, but using scienctific discoveries, medicine as progress to what u see now and continue to progress. With the genenome project completed and stem cell research on going, medicine is on the ver of curing countless disease while what has chiropractic research shown? And dont tell me that u guys dont use or teach the subluxation complex model anymore, the fact is you do. So please take the time to ask the hard question where is chiropractic going in the next century instead of regurg the same old arguments. Thank you for your participation in this debate.
Sincerely,

Ethan hunter, future MD (one year from graduating)

[DOCplucinski]

i love chiros, i used to work in a chiropractic/sports therapy office and i would get free adjustments when i wanted. i'm not sure what exactly people have against them but an adjustment all seems to make me feel pretty good.

i have extreme respect for chiros

[emanon]

You guys can get mad at me all you want, but you guys are avoiding the real issue which all chiropractors must face. The simple fact is where is the standard of practice in the profession? You have chiropractors out there selling everything from vitamins sublingually can be used to diagnosis neuro-muscular conditionns (AK), massaging someone aura to treat low back pain (NET/BEST), to rehab and manipulation. So where is the standard of practice here? U dont expect to go to the dentist office and he will massage your tooth ache away or going to see a podiatrist and he will give you vitamins to treat your gouty foot, do you? You have very good school like SCUHS and then you have others that jz plain old crazy. I know some program teaching there students to not vaccinate their children. Come on! Yes no Vaccination against polio, chicken pox, hep. B or anything. They blamed on the vaccination company for some case of autism, yet research had shown there is no correlation between two. So until you can set a standard of practice where all chiropractors must follow, then you wont get any other profession to respect and accept chiropractic.

Again, the profession is VERY young. Obviously there will be a lot of things that need changing. Standard of practice is something that the individual states determine at this point. And even those are very shady. There is also a standardized entrance examination being developed for Chiro schools. I think it's going to be called the CCAT or something along those lines. When I was in my first trimester at NYCC, we took a "beta" version of the test just so the developers could get an idea of incoming students' strengths and weaknesses. Give it time, and the "whackjob" schools will fade away.


About what u guys said before that medicine used blood letting and leaches to treat medical illness. Yes those are all truth, but using scienctific discoveries, medicine as progress to what u see now and continue to progress. With the genenome project completed and stem cell research on going, medicine is on the ver of curing countless disease while what has chiropractic research shown?Research in allopathic medicine is heavily funded by the government as well as very wealthy hospitals and organizations (pharm companies). Who funds chiropractic research? Small private schools and a few individuals, with an occasional measly grant from the NIH. On top of which the constant attempts at strangulation by the AMA, and you have yourself a field which is under-researched. What other health care profession/field has ever been so adamantly opposed by the AMA as chiropractic has been? PT, DO, DDS, DPM? None of those were as attacked as DC's have been. PT's are getting their share of attacks from the AMA these days, which just shows you how threatened the "old boys club" of the AMA feels by emergence and efficacy of other healthcare fields. They must have had a fit when the DPT degree was approved. What did they do to counter that? Got congress to cut Medicare PT benefits, with a clause that if an MD examines a patient(read: gets a visit to bill for), he/she can extend the PT treatment.

What about the contempt that MD's feel toward DO's? I can't tell you how many times I've had to listen to my MD friends belittle and bash the DO's that they work with (behind their back). How they're skating to a medical degree, and how they know nothing about real medicine. How their education is so inferior. Sound familiar? Yeah, same garbage is being thrown in our direction. See a pattern? I'd say there's a major inferiority complex brewing there.


And dont tell me that u guys dont use or teach the subluxation complex model anymore, the fact is you do. So please take the time to ask the hard question where is chiropractic going in the next century instead of regurg the same old arguments. Thank you for your participation in this debate.
Sincerely,

Ethan hunter, future MD (one year from graduating)I never said that it's not being taught. Unfortunately it still is. But as more and more research is done to prove that it's an outdated theory that holds no water, not only is it taught less, it's less accepted by students who go on to become DC's.


People are quick to flame the profession that not only do they know little about, but also that has only been legally accepted for 50 years. Give it time, and research will show what doctors have been able to see in their offices.


P.S. You still haven't provided me with your source for that 50% drop-out rate. I'll be waiting patiently.

[emanon]

You guys can get mad at me all you want, but you guys are avoiding the real issue which all chiropractors must face. The simple fact is where is the standard of practice in the profession? You have chiropractors out there selling everything from vitamins sublingually can be used to diagnosis neuro-muscular conditionns (AK), massaging someone aura to treat low back pain (NET/BEST), to rehab and manipulation. So where is the standard of practice here? U dont expect to go to the dentist office and he will massage your tooth ache away or going to see a podiatrist and he will give you vitamins to treat your gouty foot, do you? You have very good school like SCUHS and then you have others that jz plain old crazy. I know some program teaching there students to not vaccinate their children. Come on! Yes no Vaccination against polio, chicken pox, hep. B or anything. They blamed on the vaccination company for some case of autism, yet research had shown there is no correlation between two.


BTW, all those fringe methods of "treatment" that you keep listing are just that, fringe. The majority of practicing DC's out there are using Diversified and other off-shoots of that technique. Yes, there are some docs that choose to only manipulate the first cervical vertebra and then claim that it will cure your psoriasis. Just like I can find you a few dozen or MD's in Brooklyn that claim they can cure arthritis. There's plenty of bullsh_t going on on both sides, MD's just seem to be hellbent on exposing every whackjob chiro that's out there.

[EthanHunter]

How about go to Sallemae and ask what is the default rate in chiropractors on their student loans? I thought D.D Palmer was treating patient with chiropactic at least more than 50 years ago. I think it's the same time as Andrew Still, D.O, who original theory on subluxation. Gonstead tech is not heavy practice by chiropractors? U sure? How about full spinal X-ray? On the Fringe? I dont know about that. What the AMA trying to do is to make sure there is a standard practice in PT? Specially since there were PT to try to diagnoses diseases instead just go by the diagnosis of the doctors. In term of MD saying bad thing about DO, you should call, and talk to any D.O school. I think they would disagree with u. Yes pharma companies do fund a lot of drugs researchs, but keep in mind without the pharma companies that u mention, you probaly not going to have any third generation Pencillin to take or any other medicine that u use. Oh what about chiropractic doctors that advice their patient not to vaccine their children? Please dont wait for the states to set a standard for your profession, why not take the pro-active appoarch and set one for patients benefits. Thank you for ur participation.

[AUCMD2006]

chiros are slowly moving in a positive direction, just like MD's and DO's went through their snake oil phase and grew into a respected science based professions. chiro is going through that now but they need to seriously cut the number of seats at their schools--the sheer volume of competition is what drives the mall screenings and vitamin sales.

the ama is frustrating because they are attacking in the wrong direction. while they fight the scope of practice of pt's and chiros who are highly confined in anatomy and scope on their own..we have PA's and NP's gaining more and more privilidges, anyone seen the minute clinics at CVS and walmart?

i haven't practiced medicine yet only done the business side but i can tell you that even from behind the referral desk there were plenty of patients i would have beeen happy to refer anywhere--auralogist, reflexology, paleo-herbalist, zulu witch doctor...i don't care as long as they didn't keep coming back every 2 weeks...hehe

seriously, i don't think i will have a problem with my patients seeking alternative medicine as a complement i mean if the placebo effect of having a magnet rubbed on your knee by a guy with a fetaher sticking out of various body orifices reduces the need for meds then so be it

[emanon]

See, again you try to come off as someone who knows something, and end up looking like a ranting fool.

How about go to Sallemae and ask what is the default rate in chiropractors on their student loans?

If you're so convinced that we all default on our loans, why don't you give me some official numbers. While you're at it, look up the MD loan default rates.

I thought D.D Palmer was treating patient with chiropactic at least more than 50 years ago. I think it's the same time as Andrew Still, D.O, who original theory on subluxation.I said legally recognized as a profession. Which means regulated by the government and recognized as an official field of healthcare.

Gonstead tech is not heavy practice by chiropractors? U sure? How about full spinal X-ray? On the Fringe? I dont know about that.Gonstead as a way of listing restricted vertebrae, is still taught. Gonstead as an adjusting technique, not so much. Full spinal xray is something that is also being discouraged in practice and in the schools. You can actually thank the AMA for that wonderful procedure. Until the early 90's, Medicare and some major medical insuarnces REQUIRED all chiropractic patients to be x-rayed. They did not allow treatment until the patient had xrays and the results were sent for review. So the schools were forced to adapt the way they taught future docs. These days, not true anymore.

What the AMA trying to do is to make sure there is a standard practice in PT? Specially since there were PT to try to diagnoses diseases instead just go by the diagnosis of the doctors.Really? Is that what the AMA newsletter told you? Because those evil DPT's are telling poor, unsuspecting patients that they have a proximal nerve impingement while their idiot PCP thinks they have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and wants them to get surgery. I'd rather have someone who is actually qualified to treat and diagnose musculoskeltal conditions like a DPT or a DC than a hack internist who wouldn't know his ligament from his tendon.

In term of MD saying bad thing about DO, you should call, and talk to any D.O school. I think they would disagree with u.I don't need to call a school. I have firsthand experience with it. I know both DO's and MD's and they can't stand each other. Most of that animosity comes from MD's holding themselves above all other professions, including DO. So I don't need some sugar-coated press release to tell me otherwise.

Yes pharma companies do fund a lot of drugs researchs, but keep in mind without the pharma companies that u mention, you probaly not going to have any third generation Pencillin to take or any other medicine that u use.That wasn't my point. But then judging from your posts you don't really care what the point is. You just go on with your DC bashing as planned. If you bothered to read my post, you'd see that I was trying to tell you that it's difficult to do research when the funding is 1/1000 of what the other fields of healthcare get. All thanks to the mighty AMA. Job well done.

Oh what about chiropractic doctors that advice their patient not to vaccine their children? What about them? They're whackjobs, just like there are whackjobs in allopathic medicine. I've seen my share of idiots with an MD after their name whom I wouldn't allow to treat my pet goldfish.

Please dont wait for the states to set a standard for your profession, why not take the pro-active appoarch and set one for patients benefits. Thank you for ur participation.Like I said, give it time and the profession will come into its own right. It would happen a lot faster, if there were less people like you that seem overly concerned with belittling other professions.

What's your problem with DC's anyway? Did a DC hurt you or someone you know? Do DC's steal your patients? What's with the vendetta? Seems highly irrational to me.

[emanon]

chiros are slowly moving in a positive direction, just like MD's and DO's went through their snake oil phase and grew into a respected science based professions. chiro is going through that now but they need to seriously cut the number of seats at their schools--the sheer volume of competition is what drives the mall screenings and vitamin sales.







Thank you. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Someone with an open mind.

School enrollment numbers are down for the last 4 years. The reason there are so many incompetent DCs is what they used to call "The Mercedes 80's". You could send in a bill printed on a sheet of toilet paper, totaling to $500/treatment and the insurance company would pay it in full. People made millions. Then then No Fault/Car Accident craze of the 90's. Again, lots of money to be made attracted a lot of people. Now that they're forced to deal with real problems and with real patients, they're not prepared for them at all.

[heatedwire]

Wow, i can only assume that this is an American site. I don't think anywhere else in the world there are M.D's that are so threatened by the chiropractic community.
Here in Australia, there seems to be a more common thinking process that patients are capable of making decisions based on the sort of treatment that they would most like. Some people prefer a mainstream medical approach and others don't. If the opinions of this forum are anything to go by, then it appears as though MD's in the US feel as though there should only be one approach to health and wellbeing.
After moving locations a few times, i have had the opportunity to have the services of a few different Chiropractors and medical doctors here in aus, and am constantly referred to each other for treatment, as well as other health care providers.
Why do the MD's in the US feel so threatened by Chiropractors when there is never going to be a shortage of funding or opportunities in their profession? Why can't they understand that some people prefer alternative approaches to health and wellbeing?

[tjackman]

I know some program teaching there students to not vaccinate their children. Come on! Yes no Vaccination against polio, chicken pox, hep. B or anything.

He's right, I got into Life University in GA and the students told me that most of them share this veiw. I think alternative methods in medicine are good if they are beneficial, but when you have the potenial to kill your children because of your bohemian beliefs, then its time to read some different books. I don't know any babies that looked cute with polio.

[hunteradam07]

let me start by saying I graduated as DC in 99, practice for 3 years, and now i m in medical school doing my internship. So what i will say is from my own experiences. Concern about the high rate of DC drop out, this was an issue during my chiro school. In fact one of the doctor who teach chiropractic philosophy had brought up that stat and we had a debate in class about. It's truth DC has one of the highest default in student loans, i know this for fact because during my study the loan officers came to our school and speak about that issues. As for my own experience, i have 6 friends who graduated sametime. 2 went into real estate, 1 went into IT school, 1 went back to med school like me, and 2 still practice in IL. So i dont know what that mean, but it's a high number for my experience. Concern about Gonstead technique, it's not phasing out as Emanon mention at least in 1999, it's still taught in my school and we still use it as segmental diagnosis. In fact, Gonstead club was a strongest lobbies on my campus and they want to incooperate Gonstead philosophy into our school teaching-include antivaccine message. Our dean had a meeting with them. The big problem with chiropractic as a profession is the diagnosis completely subjective by the dc, because dc use only palpation to make segmental diagnosis and no two dc could came up with same diagnosis. In fact, we had a small group studies on this during my time. We had a group of faculties and students palpated a group of patients, and write down diagnosis. Most of them had complete different diagnosis on the same patients. So what i mean is if a patient has low Hgb, most MD would agree that pt has amenia. They might not agree what cause it but at least the agree with that. Now in my own experience, after i graduated i could not find a paying DC job for 6 months, most places told me they only interested in percentage. That mean i bring in patients and split the fee with them. Some places offered me 12 dollars/hr as fully license DC and that is rare to find. Most of my classmates was in the same situation. I finally found a group practices that would paid me 36T a year a license DC. During that time i went to Wallmart, county fairs, and swap-meet to do spinal screening. And there was two others DC tables in this one swap meet beside me. I was adviced by the owner of the practice that every spinal screening patient should have or need adjustment and my job is to get them to come sign up of package deal of adjustment. I didnt feel rite about. So i quitted and went back to med school. So that is my experience. I jz want to say to Emanon why is it that someone has to be hurt by DC to have an opinion? Dont u think the way u say things sound so defensive? Why is it so wrong to ask chiropractors to set a standard for the profession? How long do we have to wait for our profession to get our act together? Like my Medical Ethics doctor says if not u, who? If not here, where? If not now, When? So please keep the dialogue going and please dont be so defensive it only does our a profession a disservice. Thank U. I hope i didnt offend anyone.

[emanon]

I jz want to say to Emanon why is it that someone has to be hurt by DC to have an opinion? Dont u think the way u say things sound so defensive? Why is it so wrong to ask chiropractors to set a standard for the profession? How long do we have to wait for our profession to get our act together? Like my Medical Ethics doctor says if not u, who? If not here, where? If not now, When? So please keep the dialogue going and please dont be so defensive it only does our a profession a disservice. Thank U. I hope i didnt offend anyone.





I have absolutely no problem with someone having an opinion about chiropractic. It's when that opinion is obviously biased and based on hearsay and unfounded claims, that I will have a problem with it. Show me where there's a single positive comment about chiropractic or DC's in any of the threads posted by EthanHunter. All he does is bash a profession he apparently has no clue about.

I also have no problem establishing a standard of practice in chiropractic. In fact, the idiots who are anti-vaccination and who claim they can cure blindness with chiropractic are the ones who make good docs look bad. I cringe every time a new patient tells me that their previous DC had them coming in 3x/week for 6 months. It's unethical, and it only hurts people's image of our profession.

I'm sorry your experience with chiropractic was so negative. And just because 1 school had a strong Gonstead club 8 years ago, doesn't mean that it's the prevalent technique. Diversified is still the one being used in most offices and it's still the one being taught at most schools. There are plenty ethical, honest, hard-working DC's that make a good living while helping their patients. I've been in practice for 5 years and I can tell you I am not making 36K a year. Even fresh out of school I wasn't making that little. And you don't have to go to county fairs and Walmart to sit in a booth and get patients. It's degrading and I wish they would stop doing that. If you're good at helping people, they will find you on their own.

Bottom line, if you're good at what you do, you will succeed. Maybe chiropractic wasn't something you were good at. For all you know you'll be a world-famous MD someday.

[hunteradam07]

Originally when i read the thread about a DC girl who graduated and not making end meet n Newport California, i thought it's a very common theme in Chiropractic field. The thing that really get me is when the recuit from my DC school met us, he painted a very rosy pic of the profession. He made it sound like once u graduate, you will find a high pay job or u can go into practice urself. And trust me most of my friend felt for it, we was young and didnt have a truth direction while in College. After the the first year of chiro school, where most students spent about 30G+ loans. And the school never really made it clear to us that we couldnt find job once we done with school. They kept telling us dont worry you will find out in our third year where we will get clinical experience. Once we are done with school the reality hit us like a Mike Tyson's punch in the face-like i say the DC in the article is not alone in her experience in fact it is a norm-Most of us got very depress specially when i had to deal with the quacks out there ruining our reputations. Of all the chiropractic schools right now, how many are really scientific bases? I would say maybe two or three at most, SCUHs and National University while Life, Logan, Clevelend, etc... teach the old school philosophy. If u dont believe, u can read the post above from someone at Life about vaccine. I was a called Medpractor by many classmates and they think i m anti-chiropractic, because i asked the hard questions very similiar to EthanHunter during my time there. That is why im opinion we have to set a standard ourshelves. We have to cut out the malignant cancers and start working with the AMA instead of fighting them. But the AMA wont work with us, if we cant get our act together. But foremost, we must get rid of the subluxation complex, because it's not scientific base. Instead maybe we should approach the inflamation model that purposed by Andrew Still, D.O. Well this is jz my two's cents. But keep the dialog going please and dont be so defensive. Thank you.

[AUCMD2006]

a friend of mine got accepted to life without any pre reqs...he's never been in college. he got a 'conditional acceptance' and a convenient package to do all the pre-reqs right there in the same city and then to start at life right away.

he is really exited about becoming a 'doctor' and he keeps telling me about what the school tells him the future of the profession is. i have been struggling to whether ask him a few tough questions about the school, philosophy, work prospects, etc...or just leave it be. he is a nice enough person and beleives in the 'alternative explanations' for other areas so he maybe a prime target for the 'old school' methodology of chiros...

my dilema is how do i present the material to him in a way that presents the scientific side of the field all the good things but also point out some of the more questionable practices..any suggestions? how about some links or data about the good science based schools vs the shady ones?

if i confront him, he will be pissed and may not talk to me for a while..if i don't he runs the risk of finding this out later on and possibly being in debt without the ability to pay for it or worse turn anti-medicine and basically a witch doctor...

[hunteradam07]

This is a very hard situations for u and ur friends. What i can only tell u is my personal opinions. First of all Life is horrible interm of basic sciences compare to Southern California University of Health Science or National. U can tell your friend to really do in depth research on chiropractic prior to committing to it. Simply put can he find a job (decent paying job 50G/year) once he graduated. He can ask the school and then call around the DC offices in his area to see if they have position like that for him. I m sure he will be very suprised to find out the reality of job market is vastly different from what his recuiter telling him. He can check with sallemae about the default rate of DC post graduated. Now to me that stat speaks volumely about the job market for DC in the real world. Why would anyone default loans repayment and ruining their credits if they have a high pay job? Unless they just stupid. Unless he is planning to open his own office rite away which is very difficult interm of market and patients bases, he will have a hard time. Bottomline is do all the research, ask the hard questions, and then if he really wants to do it (Go for it). There are many reasons why any D.C would go back to medical school, but the fact that they are willing to go back to med school and trying to get into the health care system direct way should tell you about the hardship that he will face when it's time for him to find patients. Especially when he cant have any privilage in the hospitals as DC. Well good luck to your friend. Hopefully, i didnt offend anyone. Bye.

[drjohnwebb]

I practiced chiropractic for 6 years. I was VERY successful, had no problem paying off loans, buying the big house on the golf course, cars, vacations.. the whole 9 yards..

However... I was unhappy as a chiropractor for a few reasons.
1. Very limiting scope and how many patients you can help
2. Image of our profession, mostly because of the REAL quacks and money hungry chiro's out there.
3. Financial security looks grim in the future for chiros.

I am now in med school. There is another former chiro in my class, he practiced for over 15 years. There are a few more in upper semesters here as well.

Any chiro that thinks he/she will get the same or equivalant education a MD gets.. STOP fooling yourself! I keep hearing in school about how many more hours we got, how we took the same classes, etc. That is all **. I would bet that less than 10% of chiros that pass their first board could pass the step one of the USMLE, even with out pharm. Classes are SOO much more in depth and you have to OWN the information, not memorize it until the boards. In medicine, you don't have the luxury of forgetting the info after a test.

If you want to spend 4 years and a few hundred grand becoming a "doctor" in chiro school.. go for it. I now understand why MD don't like chiros.. one of the main reason is because MD learn SOO much more, have to go through so much more, get dragged through the mud to become a licensed DOCTOR. Chiros go through a little over 3 years of school and poke their chests out and say.."I am a DOCTOR too".

Maybe technically you are a doctor, but in your chiro education.. You ARE inferior... in your level of training, you ARE inferior.. in your scope of practice.. You ARE inferior..

I am/was a die hard, successful chiropractor.. who loved/loves my profession.. but I am just being honest..

Chiro school is a joke..chiro profession is going down.

[azskeptic]

Dr. John raises an interesting question. In many offices you see these handouts where DCs claim to have more training than MD's. However, if you review the backgrounds of the faculty staff it isn't equivalent in many cases. Is that correct from your experience?

I practiced chiropractic for 6 years. I was VERY successful, had no problem paying off loans, buying the big house on the golf course, cars, vacations.. the whole 9 yards..

However... I was unhappy as a chiropractor for a few reasons.
1. Very limiting scope and how many patients you can help
2. Image of our profession, mostly because of the REAL quacks and money hungry chiro's out there.
3. Financial security looks grim in the future for chiros.

I am now in med school. There is another former chiro in my class, he practiced for over 15 years. There are a few more in upper semesters here as well.

Any chiro that thinks he/she will get the same or equivalant education a MD gets.. STOP fooling yourself! I keep hearing in school about how many more hours we got, how we took the same classes, etc. That is all **. I would bet that less than 10% of chiros that pass their first board could pass the step one of the USMLE, even with out pharm. Classes are SOO much more in depth and you have to OWN the information, not memorize it until the boards. In medicine, you don't have the luxury of forgetting the info after a test.

If you want to spend 4 years and a few hundred grand becoming a "doctor" in chiro school.. go for it. I now understand why MD don't like chiros.. one of the main reason is because MD learn SOO much more, have to go through so much more, get dragged through the mud to become a licensed DOCTOR. Chiros go through a little over 3 years of school and poke their chests out and say.."I am a DOCTOR too".

Maybe technically you are a doctor, but in your chiro education.. You ARE inferior... in your level of training, you ARE inferior.. in your scope of practice.. You ARE inferior..

I am/was a die hard, successful chiropractor.. who loved/loves my profession.. but I am just being honest..

Chiro school is a joke..chiro profession is going down.

[drjohnwebb]

Very true! Chiro school brain washes their students that they are better than MDs. They also are VERY anti-medical. I have found that MDs are not Anti-chiropractic. MDs are anti- non-evidence based healthcare. Chiro is so much fluff. Most chiros have to beg patients to come in, trick them into coming in many times once they have them. It is sooo shady.. the way chiros have to get and keep patients.

Anyone thinking of going to chiro school.. don't... remember this.. if you go into medicine and you want to do manual manipulation.. you can as a MD.. if you go to chiro school and you want to really help patients..you CAN'T as a chiro.

Good luck with whatever you do..

[hunteradam07]

Can you please send Emanon a message? Because he seems to be the great defender of chiropractic and have the usual comments that every chiro out telling everyone. It's so miss leading. They are not being honest like you or me. I felt bad for EthanHunter, he raised some interesting points and I think got tired of arguing with Emanon about it. Please keep the dialog going instead of using the same B.S that been hand down from the school. Thanks for ur comment.

[MDXRS22]

This conversation is very interesting.
I wish my bud was reading this. I tried to convince him when we were both admitted to NYCC, and he did not listen to me.
He is almost done now, and you know what...painful blisters over his loans and how how will pay for such.

[drjohnwebb]

I had a patient that looked up to me and wanted to go to chiro school. I told him to go and even went with him to tour the school.

However... I finally had to confront him and told him if he wanted a good career and wanted to help people.. he needed to go to med or dental school.

He was glad I was honest and he should start dental school this fall.

Good for him.. shame on chiros..

Chiro works and it is a good profession.. however.. school should only cost around 50-75K total. That way they can afford to pay off debts. Also.. they wouldn't have to beg patients to come in or trick them to stay a patient to make a living.

[Diva]

.................................

[Diva]

..............................

[emanon]

a friend of mine got accepted to life without any pre reqs...he's never been in college. he got a 'conditional acceptance' and a convenient package to do all the pre-reqs right there in the same city and then to start at life right away.

he is really exited about becoming a 'doctor' and he keeps telling me about what the school tells him the future of the profession is. i have been struggling to whether ask him a few tough questions about the school, philosophy, work prospects, etc...or just leave it be. he is a nice enough person and beleives in the 'alternative explanations' for other areas so he maybe a prime target for the 'old school' methodology of chiros...

my dilema is how do i present the material to him in a way that presents the scientific side of the field all the good things but also point out some of the more questionable practices..any suggestions? how about some links or data about the good science based schools vs the shady ones?

if i confront him, he will be pissed and may not talk to me for a while..if i don't he runs the risk of finding this out later on and possibly being in debt without the ability to pay for it or worse turn anti-medicine and basically a witch doctor...


Life U. is a waste of money and time. It's the school that lost its accreditation for 2 years, and that happened for a very good reason. No wonder they took him with no prereq's. Look up NYCC, Bridgeport, Texas College of Chiro, National. There are other schools that model their curriculum after medical schools. NYCC has their interns doing rotations in local hospitals (Syracuse and Buffalo area), as well as sending interns to the Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland. That's the hospital that treats the President and the US Senators. And I can assure you, while 1 or 2 professors may have mentioned "subluxation complex", it was NOT the prevalent theme of my education.


What people choose to do with their education once they graduate, should not be a reflection on the school that gave them that education or on their colleagues

[emanon]

Originally when i read the thread about a DC girl who graduated and not making end meet n Newport California, i thought it's a very common theme in Chiropractic field. The thing that really get me is when the recuit from my DC school met us, he painted a very rosy pic of the profession. He made it sound like once u graduate, you will find a high pay job or u can go into practice urself. And trust me most of my friend felt for it, we was young and didnt have a truth direction while in College. After the the first year of chiro school, where most students spent about 30G+ loans. And the school never really made it clear to us that we couldnt find job once we done with school. They kept telling us dont worry you will find out in our third year where we will get clinical experience. Once we are done with school the reality hit us like a Mike Tyson's punch in the face-like i say the DC in the article is not alone in her experience in fact it is a norm-Most of us got very depress specially when i had to deal with the quacks out there ruining our reputations. Of all the chiropractic schools right now, how many are really scientific bases? I would say maybe two or three at most, SCUHs and National University while Life, Logan, Clevelend, etc... teach the old school philosophy. If u dont believe, u can read the post above from someone at Life about vaccine. I was a called Medpractor by many classmates and they think i m anti-chiropractic, because i asked the hard questions very similiar to EthanHunter during my time there.

2 or 3 at the most? I think you undersetimate the number of schools that have moved away from the subluxation complex **. And even the students that go to some of those schools that teach it, make informed decisions on their own. Not everyone has to be a sheep and blindly believe what some talking head is telling them.

That is why im opinion we have to set a standard ourshelves. We have to cut out the malignant cancers and start working with the AMA instead of fighting them. But the AMA wont work with us, if we cant get our act together. But foremost, we must get rid of the subluxation complex, because it's not scientific base. Instead maybe we should approach the inflamation model that purposed by Andrew Still, D.O. Well this is jz my two's cents. But keep the dialog going please and dont be so defensive. Thank you.

I am keeping the dialog going, and I'm not being defensive at all. I don't appreciate when my chosen profession gets labeled as quackery and constantly attacked based on actions of some, not all, doctors. Again, if someone were to bother and go around finding out how many unfounded claims some MD's make, or how unethical their practices are, or how they can't succeed because they are a bad doctor and don't know their butt from their elbow, I can pretty much guarantee that the numbers would be just as high as among DC's. I have to clean up the messes they left every day in my office. I'm talking about the patients these 'doctors' screwed up. Some temporarily, thank god, others premanently. But the thing is that nobody is on a crusade to prove how screwed up MD's are. DC's are put under a constant microscope by the AMA, just looking for another excuse to show the world how much of a quackery chiropractic is.

Because there are so few chiros compared to the numbers of MD's, our mistakes and our whackos are that much more visible.

[emanon]

This is a very hard situations for u and ur friends. What i can only tell u is my personal opinions. First of all Life is horrible interm of basic sciences compare to Southern California University of Health Science or National. U can tell your friend to really do in depth research on chiropractic prior to committing to it. Simply put can he find a job (decent paying job 50G/year) once he graduated. He can ask the school and then call around the DC offices in his area to see if they have position like that for him. I m sure he will be very suprised to find out the reality of job market is vastly different from what his recuiter telling him. He can check with sallemae about the default rate of DC post graduated. Now to me that stat speaks volumely about the job market for DC in the real world. Why would anyone default loans repayment and ruining their credits if they have a high pay job? Unless they just stupid. Unless he is planning to open his own office rite away which is very difficult interm of market and patients bases, he will have a hard time. Bottomline is do all the research, ask the hard questions, and then if he really wants to do it (Go for it). There are many reasons why any D.C would go back to medical school, but the fact that they are willing to go back to med school and trying to get into the health care system direct way should tell you about the hardship that he will face when it's time for him to find patients. Especially when he cant have any privilage in the hospitals as DC. Well good luck to your friend. Hopefully, i didnt offend anyone. Bye.

DC do have hosptal priviliges. Obviously not every hospital, but more and more are starting to realize that DC's have their place in the modern healthcare system and are utilizing DC's for acute care (ER), manipulation under anesthesia and radiology. It's becoming more and more widespread as hospitals see that patients can benefit from chiropractic care in a hospital setting.

[MD04]

People in the computer field make more than 150k with ** easily.

[emanon]

Dr. John raises an interesting question. In many offices you see these handouts where DCs claim to have more training than MD's. However, if you review the backgrounds of the faculty staff it isn't equivalent in many cases. Is that correct from your experience?

Depends on the school. Some have PhD's teaching sciences, and DC's and MD's teaching clinically related classes. Others do not.

Some fields DC's do get more training, others we're far behind. I won't try and compare my knowledge of pathology to an MD. But from speaking to my many MD and DO friends, my knowledge of anatomy, neurology, orthopedics and radiology far surpasses theirs. And these are people who went to US schools, as well as non-US schools.

[emanon]

Very true! Chiro school brain washes their students that they are better than MDs. They also are VERY anti-medical. I have found that MDs are not Anti-chiropractic. MDs are anti- non-evidence based healthcare. Chiro is so much fluff. Most chiros have to beg patients to come in, trick them into coming in many times once they have them. It is sooo shady.. the way chiros have to get and keep patients.

Anyone thinking of going to chiro school.. don't... remember this.. if you go into medicine and you want to do manual manipulation.. you can as a MD.. if you go to chiro school and you want to really help patients..you CAN'T as a chiro.

Good luck with whatever you do..

Sad to see that you're so disillusioned with chiropractic. Contrary to what you believe, you CAN really help patients. IF you're more than just a bone-cracker.

And as far as doing manual manipulation as an MD, taking a weekend class simply means you know 1/100 of what you need to know to safely manipulate the spine. You should know that.


Seems to me that you think that unless you're an MD, you can't help a patient. Does that mean that if I'm not curing someone's lung cancer, I'm not helping that patient? So dentists, physical therapists, optometrists, podiatrists and other healthcare practitioners are just wasting people's time and money?

Good to see that fancy MD title that you didn't get yet, hasn't gone to your head.

[emanon]

Can you please send Emanon a message? Because he seems to be the great defender of chiropractic and have the usual comments that every chiro out telling everyone. It's so miss leading. They are not being honest like you or me. I felt bad for EthanHunter, he raised some interesting points and I think got tired of arguing with Emanon about it. Please keep the dialog going instead of using the same B.S that been hand down from the school. Thanks for ur comment.

I'm not "The Defender of Chiroporactic". I'm defending what I do from constant unfounded attacks by people that either know nothing about it, or have become jaded and antagonistic toward their former profession.

[emanon]

This conversation is very interesting.
I wish my bud was reading this. I tried to convince him when we were both admitted to NYCC, and he did not listen to me.
He is almost done now, and you know what...painful blisters over his loans and how how will pay for such.

Your friend will be fine. NYCC gave him a good education.

[hunteradam07]

I wonder why so many D.C become jaded and antagonist to the their own profession, if everything is honky dorry! Jz face it man. If chiropractic has the same acceptant as all the other professions as u mention, then the number of D.C went back to medical school or doing something else would not be as high as it's. Come on how many dentists when back to medical schools, really! Please if you want to really do something about this then it will start a major house cleaning, get rid of all the quackery practices. Once again set a standard of practice that all D.C have to follow. Stick to the scope of practice. The end.

[AUCMD2006]

I'm not "The Defender of Chiroporactic". I'm defending what I do from constant unfounded attacks by people that either know nothing about it, or have become jaded and antagonistic toward their former profession.


obviously you know nothing or next to nothing about MD's because the statements you made are just funny

" But from speaking to my many MD and DO friends, my knowledge of anatomy, neurology, orthopedics and radiology far surpasses theirs" maybe the FP docs that refer to you because they don't need any of that stuff day to day. why don't you ask a general surgeon, interventional neurologist, orthopod, and radiologist respectively to compare brain pans in their specialties. $100 on the dumbest specialist...hehe MDs are spread out over a bunch of fields so i may need to know detailed anatomy of the breast and pelvis but the last time i looked at any other anatomy in detail was surgery rotation while still in school

"And as far as doing manual manipulation as an MD, taking a weekend class simply means you know 1/100 of what you need to know to safely manipulate the spine. You should know that"

no MD would do manual manipulation of the spine because you can't bill for it. and on a side note i have seen a few train wrecks come in the ER a while after seeing a chiro....i was going to contunue my rant but the premise was that it appears someone has MD envy...:twisted: seriously each has its place, i would go to a chiro for certain things...there is misunderstanding on both sides but no one isa going to take chiro as a real profession until you get the booths out of the malkl and the free screenings out of the flea market.. oh and stop signing perople up for treatment packages

[ed gee]

There are many MDs performing manual medicine and there are appropriate codes for billing. Most are physiatrists.

In twenty years as a physiatrist at an academic medical center, I have seen one patient that had an injury that was attributed to manipulation and it was by a layperson.

Manipulation is relatively safe compared to many of the things we do.

[emanon]

obviously you know nothing or next to nothing about MD's because the statements you made are just funny

" But from speaking to my many MD and DO friends, my knowledge of anatomy, neurology, orthopedics and radiology far surpasses theirs" maybe the FP docs that refer to you because they don't need any of that stuff day to day. why don't you ask a general surgeon, interventional neurologist, orthopod, and radiologist respectively to compare brain pans in their specialties. $100 on the dumbest specialist...hehe MDs are spread out over a bunch of fields so i may need to know detailed anatomy of the breast and pelvis but the last time i looked at any other anatomy in detail was surgery rotation while still in school

Actually, I know quite a lot. Being that my best friend and his fiancee are both cardiologists, one of my other close friends is an ER doc, and my wife is in med school. And I was talking about general practitioners, not specialists. But supposedly, medical school education is so vastly superior to chiro school. Shouldn't even the simplest GP be that much better than a lowly chiro in any subject that is taught in chiro schools and med schools?

"And as far as doing manual manipulation as an MD, taking a weekend class simply means you know 1/100 of what you need to know to safely manipulate the spine. You should know that"

no MD would do manual manipulation of the spine because you can't bill for it. and on a side note i have seen a few train wrecks come in the ER a while after seeing a chiro....i was going to contunue my rant but the premise was that it appears someone has MD envy...:twisted: seriously each has its place, i would go to a chiro for certain things...there is misunderstanding on both sides but no one isa going to take chiro as a real profession until you get the booths out of the malkl and the free screenings out of the flea market.. oh and stop signing perople up for treatment packages

Really? I just started fixing up a patient whose PCP left an antalgic lean from simple LBP untreated for a year. Which lead to a severe scoliosis with nerve root compression, disc bulges at every level of the L/S and the poor lady looks disfigured because of the now permanent lean to the side. But, the last thing he tried to do on her before she finally had enough, was a seated twisting motion in attempt to "re-align" her crooked spine. Not even a simple x-ray in the year the lady has had back pain.

MD's do want to manipulate. That's why those weekend seminars (which are a complete joke) are offered and are taken. That's why PT's are trying to get spinal manipulation into their scope of practice as well.

Again, my problem is not with the constructive criticism. My problem is with the chiro bashing that is so rampant among MDs who know nothing or next to nothing about what a chiropractor even does. For god's sake, I had a patient tell me that his GP told him that cervical manipulation is deadly and will cause him to grow brain tumors and he will die from the first adjustment. I had a cardiologist tell my patient that my mostly soft-tissue/stretching/exercises treatment of a chronic arthritic low back was going to cause a heart attack. Are you going to tell me that those claims aren't biased? It's garbage like that that gets me pissed off.

[emanon]

I wonder why so many D.C become jaded and antagonist to the their own profession, if everything is honky dorry! Jz face it man. If chiropractic has the same acceptant as all the other professions as u mention, then the number of D.C went back to medical school or doing something else would not be as high as it's. Come on how many dentists when back to medical schools, really! Please if you want to really do something about this then it will start a major house cleaning, get rid of all the quackery practices. Once again set a standard of practice that all D.C have to follow. Stick to the scope of practice. The end.

I had several MD's in my chiro school class. There were a few other in classes above me and below me. What's your point? It's not only chiros going to med school. It's the other way around too.

[emanon]

seriously each has its place, i would go to a chiro for certain things...there is misunderstanding on both sides but no one isa going to take chiro as a real profession until you get the booths out of the malkl and the free screenings out of the flea market.. oh and stop signing perople up for treatment packages

Should I tell you how cardiologists sign up patients for "treatment packages"? Or how dentists sign up people for "re-alignments" where the patient has to come in a certain number of times to get the full benefit of the treatment?

Yes. I completely agree that there's a lot of unscrupulous ** that goes on. IS it limited to chiros, like you would like it to appear? I would have to disagree.


Just because you see some people doing something, it does not mean everyone else is doing the same thing. I wish people would stop lumping every chiro out there into the same group with the whackjobs and the money-hungry ones.

[AUCMD2006]

"For god's sake, I had a patient tell me that his GP told him that cervical manipulation is deadly and will cause him to grow brain tumors and he will die from the first adjustment. I had a cardiologist tell my patient that my mostly soft-tissue/stretching/exercises treatment of a chronic arthritic low back was going to cause a heart attack. Are you going to tell me that those claims aren't biased? It's garbage like that that gets me pissed off."

thasts funny, there is alot of ** on both sides...i've had pts tell me about their chiro who told them he could cure their asthma, another had testicular cancer that could be treated by his chiro, someone also said her whole family was going to get spinal adjustments from her 72 yo grandmother to her 7 month old daughter....yes 7 month old daughter because they were all told that a good spinal adjustment every month will balnce the immune system keep them healthy of course buying the chiro's vitamin package helped

then you can go on to other things but at least these things seem to be on the fringes and for the most part both sides get professionally along in more places than not. i personally intend on referring to chiros often for musculoskeletal issues...problem is just finding one that is scioence based and will not sign the pt up for a 10 year pre paid package. when i worked in an office we had two seperate chiros in different cities basically steal a few patients and have them transfer their pcp to someone they knew that would keep referring them over and over again.... i admit i had a bad taste for chiros from the start but have tried to keep an open mind all along because there is some good ones out there that can really help people in ways that i wouldn't even want to try

and about knowledge i would say that fresh out of med school maybe MD shooling covers more things in more depth because it has to....so i would contend that the training is superior in that it covers more if that is what you are looking at, but i am biased. chiros don't need a lot of the material we cover, psychiatry, pharmacology, some physiology topics, some anatomy, genetics, microbiology, bacterial genetics, biochemstry and so on

now a few years after, heck even a year after a lot of the information not used is gone and quickly replaced by whatever your specialty is. your cardio friend will know infinitely more about the heart than either of us combined. no issue there, i doubt you know much about things related to general surgery procedure and antomy for a whipple?...hehe or most other medical specialties because you don't need to and i will never know as much about the spine as you guys or a spinal surgeon... i don't get your argument...so you know more anatomy than a family doc... how about if they ask you how to treat q HONDA? (hypertensive overweight noncompliant diabetic adult) i guess all of us know what we need to in our field

i'm gonna try and talk to my firend and see how its going at life and ask him to look at the other schools

[AUCMD2006]

There are many MDs performing manual medicine and there are appropriate codes for billing. Most are physiatrists.

In twenty years as a physiatrist at an academic medical center, I have seen one patient that had an injury that was attributed to manipulation and it was by a layperson.

Manipulation is relatively safe compared to many of the things we do.


completely forgot about physiatry...sorry, i dealt with FP and surgical codes. being in and out of the ER and private practice setting for over 10 years both in school and out in the real world i saw quite a few that had issues from possible manipulation but nothing could ever be proven the strongest case was a pt that had a cervical fracture but even taht one couldn't be pinned 00% on the chiro because he fell a few days before the manipulation but he fell on his hands from a chair so who knows...

is there any research in to the injuiries people see chiros for and their etiology? real research not case reports?

[Diva]

"For god's sake, I had a patient tell me that his GP told him that cervical manipulation is deadly and will cause him to grow brain tumors and he will die from the first adjustment. I had a cardiologist tell my patient that my mostly soft-tissue/stretching/exercises treatment of a chronic arthritic low back was going to cause a heart attack. Are you going to tell me that those claims aren't biased? It's garbage like that that gets me pissed off."

thasts funny, there is alot of ** on both sides...i've had pts tell me about their chiro who told them he could cure their asthma, another had testicular cancer that could be treated by his chiro, someone also said her whole family was going to get spinal adjustments from her 72 yo grandmother to her 7 month old daughter....yes 7 month old daughter because they were all told that a good spinal adjustment every month will balnce the immune system keep them healthy of course buying the chiro's vitamin package helped

then you can go on to other things but at least these things seem to be on the fringes and for the most part both sides get professionally along in more places than not. i personally intend on referring to chiros often for musculoskeletal issues...problem is just finding one that is scioence based and will not sign the pt up for a 10 year pre paid package. when i worked in an office we had two seperate chiros in different cities basically steal a few patients and have them transfer their pcp to someone they knew that would keep referring them over and over again.... i admit i had a bad taste for chiros from the start but have tried to keep an open mind all along because there is some good ones out there that can really help people in ways that i wouldn't even want to try

and about knowledge i would say that fresh out of med school maybe MD shooling covers more things in more depth because it has to....so i would contend that the training is superior in that it covers more if that is what you are looking at, but i am biased. chiros don't need a lot of the material we cover, psychiatry, pharmacology, some physiology topics, some anatomy, genetics, microbiology, bacterial genetics, biochemstry and so on

now a few years after, heck even a year after a lot of the information not used is gone and quickly replaced by whatever your specialty is. your cardio friend will know infinitely more about the heart than either of us combined. no issue there, i doubt you know much about things related to general surgery procedure and antomy for a whipple?...hehe or most other medical specialties because you don't need to and i will never know as much about the spine as you guys or a spinal surgeon... i don't get your argument...so you know more anatomy than a family doc... how about if they ask you how to treat q HONDA? (hypertensive overweight noncompliant diabetic adult) i guess all of us know what we need to in our field

i'm gonna try and talk to my firend and see how its going at life and ask him to look at the other schools


I feel like i just stepped onto a beach with children showing off their sand castles saying "mines better!!" "No, Mine is better! I'm telling! "
i'll try to be as objective as possible....

I manage a chiro office, and i see this on a daily basis that FP, or even a gastro (bc 20 yrs ago they did an Im residency) will try to treat conditions (back injury related) which are completely out of their scope of practice and wind up crippling the patient. I lost count of how many times I have witnessed that.
Just like i think that chiros should stick to their scope of practice, so should other healthcare providers. I'm sure that if someone was to do a detailed study about exactly where these types of problems arise, it would be evident that problems occur when one ventures out of their scope of practice.

i.e. a GP diagnosing a 20 yo male, who came in for a simple physical and vaccinations b4 his volunteer work in hosp (recently came out of closet and adjusting) with chronic depression from first visit (15 min) and gave him Wellbutrin with max amt or refills. Fastfoward 5 years....the poor kid goes to see a psychotherapist who monitors him for 6 months (the proper way to diagnose) and concludes that he was never depressed. But obviously he cant just stop taking the pills, he has to be weaned off of them. How much damage do you think his liver had in those 5 yrs???The above person is a friend of mine, and he was never depressed, he was just adjusting to his new lifestyle of not hiding his sexual prefs; And thats my professional opinion as a person with a clinical psych degree and as his friend. This also happend to a few other people i know personally and non personally. And i can even remember when an ob gyn decided her pt was depressed and instead of referring out, she took charge...obviously the pt didnt benefit.

I dont know what the issue is with referring out? Is it a complex of admitting when you dont know something that makes MD's cringe? But mostly i see this in older practioners, not the younger ones. Why is that?
SOrry about the rant....just trying to put things in perspective!!! lets stick to our specialties people!!!!


Back to chiros, about 5 years back i worked with a chiropractor, who went to a great school, NYCC but couldnt adjust to save his life.....actually let me rephrase that.....he was non specific with his adjustments and really screwed up my neck.
Like it was said many times over, there are idiots in every proffession, I have been to some MD's that I wouldnt trust with my pet rock and there are those i would trust with my life. Some chiros should be banned from coming near patients and some should have golden sculptures made out of their hands.
It all depends on the person, if you chose your proffession for the right reasons, and you are good at it then thats all that matters. As a patient and as a person who has worked with numerous MD's DC's Pt's etc....with various specialities i think i have enough knowledge to make a valid observation. So I repeat...there are idiots in EVERY specialty.

But i think its wrong to stereotype any provider. We are all in the same boat, once all the bickering and "bashing" starts...the patient is the only one that suffers.

And dont think that chiros are the only ones who steal pts.....there are plenty of MD's and DO's that do it also.



On a side note...what is up with DO's putting MD infront of their DO title!!!! That drives me nuts! I see it on every office corner Joe BLow MD DO., ???????
Im sure they didnt go to both schools.....GRR

[hunteradam07]

Well Emanon, you have a least two D.C on this post are going back to medical school. U are telling that there are fully US license MD that will go to go back for 4 years of chiropractic school and get their DC license on top of their MD. I would love to see that stat-Since i know you love to ask for Stat-Hw long is residency in Chiropractic? Oh wait there isnt. Jz one 12 months of internship. I remembered now. Jz think even a lowly educated and lowly train GP has to go to 3years of residency after four years of medical school. I will tell u from first hand experience since i m an a full license D.C, yes anatomy and functional anatomy are more indepth in chiro schools (wait at some school) I would say SHSU, NYCC, and National. That is 3 out of how many chiro schools in USA? Everything else is far more indepth in medical school, and intership in medical school is 2 years. One year of core rotations and one year of electives. So to claim that chiro academic program is as intensive and as comparable to medical school is intellectually dishonest. And that is the same hook or spill that in every DCs telling themselves and their pts. Hehe u dont believe jz ask Dr. Webb. The other DC future MD. Oh, how many all those suppose fully US licensed MDs that went back to DC schools will have the same antagonist to their previous profession (medicine) as all the DCs who went back to med school? As u implying me and Dr. Webb.

[emanon]

Well Emanon, you have a least two D.C on this post are going back to medical school. U are telling that there are fully US license MD that will go to go back for 4 years of chiropractic school and get their DC license on top of their MD. I would love to see that stat-Since i know you love to ask for Stat.

Yes, there are fully licensed MD's that go through 4 years of chiro school. Statistics? I don't think there's a survey out there that would be able to tell you how many MD's wend for a DC. Can you provide a statistic on how many DC's are going to med school?

That's not the point I was trying to make anyway. Either you or someone else claimed that because DC's are going to med school, it means that DC's are generally not happy with their chosen profession. I made the counter claim that there are MD's that do the same. It could be that they're not happy with allopathic medicine. It could be something else.

-Hw long is residency in Chiropractic? Oh wait there isnt. Jz one 12 months of internship. I remembered now. Jz think even a lowly educated and lowly train GP has to go to 3years of residency after four years of medical school.

So let me get this straight. Unless you do a hospital residency you're not educated enough? That's interesting.

How many inpatients, do you suppose, are in hospitals because of musculo-skeletal conditions? Not too many, I would think. How many patients with chronic back pain, disc herniations, structural abnormalities are treated in a hospital setting? Not many of those either. So what exactly would be accomplished by having DC's doing hospital residencies? What would they be treating?

And believe me, that if hospitals did want chiro students and recent grads doing internships and residencies, we'd be more than happy to do them. I already said that NYCC has interns doing rounds with MD/DO interns and residents in hospitals close to the school. There are hospitals all accross the country that are giving DC's hospital priviliges and even has DC's working in the ER. It's a young profession that has always faced an uphill battle. For some reason though, people think that DC's will be accepted overnight by the medical community. It's gotten infinitely better than it was 20 years ago. And we still have a long way to go.

I will tell u from first hand experience since i m an a full license D.C, yes anatomy and functional anatomy are more indepth in chiro schools (wait at some school) I would say SHSU, NYCC, and National. That is 3 out of how many chiro schools in USA? Everything else is far more indepth in medical school, and intership in medical school is 2 years. One year of core rotations and one year of electives. So to claim that chiro academic program is as intensive and as comparable to medical school is intellectually dishonest.

It's more intensive in some fields, and less intensive in others. As far as sciences go, many are on the same level. Are you going to proclaim that a DDS has an inferior education to yours? No, just different. And that's what I've been trying to tell you too. I don't claim to know more about allopathic medicine in general than an MD. Is my education as inferior as some people here claim? Definitely not. Do I know more about some things than an MD? Absolutely.

And that is the same hook or spill that in every DCs telling themselves and their pts. Hehe u dont believe jz ask Dr. Webb. The other DC future MD.

I don't need to use curriculum to justify myself to my patients. And I don't need to sign them up for a bazillion treatments to have them come back for checkups after their condition has been resolved. They make their own decisions based on the quality of care they recieved and if I helped them or not. I've referred patients to other doctors if I saw that I couldn't help them.

Oh, how many all those suppose fully US licensed MDs that went back to DC schools will have the same antagonist to their previous profession (medicine) as all the DCs who went back to med school? As u implying me and Dr. Webb.

I don't really know. I haven't met all of them. Just 4 or 5.

Seems to me that the majority of DC's who end up in med school couldn't cut it as a DC. Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed too if I had all those loans and no way of earning the money to pay for them. Just because you failed as a chiropractor, doesn't mean everybody else will too. Get your MD, treat your patients and worry less about bashing the profession that you are no longer a part of.

[emanon]

And to answer the question about how well would DC's do on MD tests. I took a sample USMLE part 1. Just for the hell of it. No preparation, studying and 6 years removed from my last Biochem class (2 semesters of biochem taught by a PhD, in case you were wondering). I didn't do too badly. I think around 60%. Not the best result, but I'll bet if I read the material for a month or so, I would probably improve my score by at least 15%.

[drjohnwebb]

First of all..... I AM a chiropractor.. and I will BE a MD. So far.. I can tell you from the REAL world what the deal is.

I'm not new out of chiro school (like this one guy sounds like) and I know how the healtcare world works. I had 4 offices, I had PTs work for me, I had MDs and DOs work for me and other chiros.

Chiro DOES work.. I will never argue that. However, chiro care is a luxury type of treatment for 90% of it's patients. Do you REALLY think all your patients NEED that care? Will they DIE without it?

Don't get me wrong, there are bad MDs out there, I can attest to that.. all day long. But.. at least what they are practicing is (or should be) EVIDENCE based treatments with SCIENTIFIC principles behind them. Chiro has no proof that what they do helps anyone. You can't prove that a patient has a subluxation. If you aren't doing subluxation based chiro.. then you are trying to practice PT or medicine. PT treats muscle/ligament problems through therapy and rehab. Medicine treat disease through many modalities,ie drugs, surgery, etc.

Chiro is not getting better.. If you think it is.. you are either in school or just got out and are still brained washed. It is going down the tube.

There are MDs who want to do spinal manipulation. Guess what.. I hope the PMR docs or FM people start doing spinal manipulation and get good at it. It will completely put chiros out of business.

"well Ms. Jones.. I know you have been getting "adjustments" from your REAL doctor, who has more training and education than I do.. And I know your insurance will pay for it if I do it.. BUT.. you should come to me and pay me out of pocket to do it.. because I am better at it".

All it will take if for one med school to start a "chiro medicine" residency, and have MD, DCs teach them how to adjust. Within a few years, chiro will only be in history books.

And kid.. don't fool yourself.. you don't know more anatomy, neuro, etc that you THINK you do. I will bet on a person with a low B in my anatomy class against someone with a high A in a chiro anatomy class.. any day of the week.

This is not someone talking out of their butt.. this is someone who is seeing both sides.. with his own eyes. You can ask other chiros I am in med school with, they will tell you the same.

yeah .. there are MD in chiro school.. they are the ones that couldn't get a license in medicine, so they are the bottom of the med profession.. and they still are top in chiro.. and most teach at chiro schools. Chiro will take medicine's trash, but medicine won't take chiro's cream of the crop.

Stop defending it will all your power.. just go to work, pop backs, bill 98941 and 97140 codes, put some stim pad and a moist hot pack on your patients.. and have a nice day!

Save your money... the end of chiro is upon you.. just wait and see..

[hunteradam07]

U know what funny Dr. Webb, all the chiro fanatic defender will bring up the fact that someone else who going to speak frankly about chiropractic or getting an MD education are those who somehow didnt make as chiropractors. Somehow it's a mythical failure unless u are firmly believe in chiropractic principle. As it somehow it's replace all scientific evidents. I absolute agree with u about there is no scientific bases to what DCs claimming to treat. And if u ask them about it, they would say we dont have enough money to do research study or the AMA is out to get us, etc... Instead of facing the issues. U know what Emanon, I agree with u that i didnt make it as a chiropractor. Because if by making it as a chiropractor, I have to for sake my personal intergrity, common sense, and selling my patients on package adjustment plans for next 5 years even though they have no signs or symptoms, or setting up booth at Walmart, swap-meet, or telling my patients not vaccinate their children and take vitamins to cure all disease, then u are absolutely right I DID NOT MAKE IT AS CHIROPRACTOR. I have no problem saying that. So for those who interested in become a DC, just do ur research carefully (then check it tri), talk to open mind DCs that would tell u the good (very little), The bad (numerous), and the ugly (oh boy), and if u still want to do it then go for it (or jz go to medical school and become Real Rehab Medicine Doctor). It's really up to u. Good luck.

[drjohnwebb]

You are right.. I tell people all the time.. if you want to be a chiro.. then fine.. Go to medical school first. All chiro schools will take you with advanced standing. So.. do med.. if you don't like it, you only have to do around 1.5 years to be a chiro after that. The other way around.. no real med school will take advanced standing from chiro. So you have to start over... like I am.

Remember.. in medicine, our scope of practice well encompasses EVERYTHING chiros do. But,.. chiros can't do 99% of what we can do.

So.. boys and girls.. the lesson of the day is... You can still do manipulation as an MD, so why would you go to chiro school. Save your money, go to med school and give me... let's say 10K, instead of 150K and I will teach you how to adjust, just as well as any chiro on this planet.

MDs don't hate chiros... we hate chiros that hate on MDs. I find that med students don't have pre-judgements on chiros, but chiro schools fuel and spread hatred for the medical profession.

By the way, I know realize that chiros don't like medicine, because they understand it. Half the things they talked against in when I was in school, I have found to be completely wrong.. or that they didn't understand it.

Good luck in chiro... better hope a MD, DC doesn't come to your town.. or be on the lookout for the spinal manipulation subspecialty under PMR.. coming soon.. to a town near you.. Replacing unfounded chiropractic care.

[emanon]

First of all..... I AM a chiropractor.. and I will BE a MD. So far.. I can tell you from the REAL world what the deal is.

I'm not new out of chiro school (like this one guy sounds like) and I know how the healtcare world works. I had 4 offices, I had PTs work for me, I had MDs and DOs work for me and other chiros.

Chiro DOES work.. I will never argue that. However, chiro care is a luxury type of treatment for 90% of it's patients. Do you REALLY think all your patients NEED that care? Will they DIE without it?

Why do you have to die from a condition for it to count as "important" or "non-luxury"? Is it a luxury to be able to get out of bed without pain every morning? Is it a luxury to be able to walk a block without having to stop every 20 feet because your back pain is too severe? I didn't know that not having numbness in your hands or a crippling headache were luxuries.

I'm guessing that fixing a cavity, or removing an ingrown toenail are luxuries too. I haven't heard of anyone dying from not getting a filling done. Make sure you tell your dentist that his care is mostly luxury type of treatment and that his education is inferior to yours.

Don't get me wrong, there are bad MDs out there, I can attest to that.. all day long. But.. at least what they are practicing is (or should be) EVIDENCE based treatments with SCIENTIFIC principles behind them. Chiro has no proof that what they do helps anyone. You can't prove that a patient has a subluxation. If you aren't doing subluxation based chiro.. then you are trying to practice PT or medicine. PT treats muscle/ligament problems through therapy and rehab. Medicine treat disease through many modalities,ie drugs, surgery, etc.

That's the sad part about you. You think that unless it's "subluxation based", it's not real chiro. Chiropractic is MANUAL MEDICINE. And you're right. I am practicing medicine. Chiropractic medicine. I don't try to cure asthma or the mumps. I fix things I know I have the ability to fix. Things that have been and are being SCIENTIFICALLY researched and proven. I don't practice AK, or Network or some other mumbo-jumbo technique that has no proof behind it.

Chiro is not getting better.. If you think it is.. you are either in school or just got out and are still brained washed. It is going down the tube.

I'm neither. I've been in practice long enough to see that things have actually gotten better.

There are MDs who want to do spinal manipulation. Guess what.. I hope the PMR docs or FM people start doing spinal manipulation and get good at it. It will completely put chiros out of business.

Bitter much?


"well Ms. Jones.. I know you have been getting "adjustments" from your REAL doctor, who has more training and education than I do.. And I know your insurance will pay for it if I do it.. BUT.. you should come to me and pay me out of pocket to do it.. because I am better at it".

Well, considering the fact that all insurances cover chiropractic treatment, I guess I won't run into the problem of insurance not paying me unless I decide to go to an all cash practice. And there you go again with the "chiros and not REAL doctors and have no real training" song and dance.

All it will take if for one med school to start a "chiro medicine" residency, and have MD, DCs teach them how to adjust. Within a few years, chiro will only be in history books.

And kid.. don't fool yourself.. you don't know more anatomy, neuro, etc that you THINK you do. I will bet on a person with a low B in my anatomy class against someone with a high A in a chiro anatomy class.. any day of the week.

Again, just because YOUR education is inferior, doesn't mean mine is. I'm not sitting here trying to belittle other professions, saying that I'm better and pounding my chest. I'll leave that job to you, hunteradam and ethanhunter. I'm trying to deflect your attacks on my profession and my educational background. Of which you know nothing about, yet still calim that it's inferior to an MD's.

This is not someone talking out of their butt.. this is someone who is seeing both sides.. with his own eyes. You can ask other chiros I am in med school with, they will tell you the same.

Yes, let me ask other bitter, jaded, former chiropractors who are grooming their arrogance along side with you. I should really get a balanced and objective opinion.

yeah .. there are MD in chiro school.. they are the ones that couldn't get a license in medicine, so they are the bottom of the med profession.. and they still are top in chiro.. and most teach at chiro schools. Chiro will take medicine's trash, but medicine won't take chiro's cream of the crop.

Are you sure about that? The MDs that were in school with me were US educated MD's that practiced in the states and wanted a change. For whatever personal reasons. Some wanted to add the knowledge of chiropractic to their arsenal, others just wanted a change. And no, taking some seminars over the weekend won't give you the same ability and knowledge of chiropractic medicine as completing a DC program.

Stop defending it will all your power.. just go to work, pop backs, bill 98941 and 97140 codes, put some stim pad and a moist hot pack on your patients.. and have a nice day!

Save your money... the end of chiro is upon you.. just wait and see..


You're simply a bitter, inferiority complex-laden former chiropractor who thinks that only treating diseases that can kill you is real medicine. It's ok. That's who you choose to be and that's why you're going to continue spreading ** like your posts here even after you get your degree. Good for you. Bad for your patients. You seem like the kind of guy who will think that he knows everything about everything and will never admit his shortcomings. Just because of those 2 little letters after your name. MD.

So you went to a crappy school that flooded you with subluxation complex **. So you were jealous of MD's that could bill for more codes. I guess if using more CPT codes is what makes your life better, then you're going to med school for all the right reasons. :roll:

[emanon]

Here's the difference between you and me. You were a back-cracker with 4 back-cracking offices. I'm a Chiropractic Physician who treats conditions within my scope of practice. Guess what, I also treat headaches, knees, shoulders, hips, ankles, elbows and wrists. I feel secure enough in my profession and my ability to help people, that I don't need to bash other professions or abandon mine and go for another degree. You wanted the prestige and the myriad of CPT/ICD9 codes to bill that go along with the MD title. To each his own.

[drjohnwebb]

First of all.. there is no such thing as chiropractic medicine.. MEDICINE.. the healing art of prescribing MEDICATIONS....
You do that? I didn't know that was in the chiro scope of practice.

I made more in REAL chiropractic last year than you will make in 10. Chiropractic.. treats spinal conditions, so how are extremity issues in the chiro scope. You may not know this.. but NJ just stopped chiros from doing extremity adjusting because is not in their scope.

Just to let you know, I am a CCSP, CCEP and a DACBR. I will assure you that my chiro education was better than most and my post graduate education in chiro is far superior to yours. I taught seminars on extremity adjusting, physical exams, insurance billing, chiro radiology and practice management. I worked for one of the top (if not the top) chiro practice consultants and I also worked for Tony Robbins International as a motivational speaker.

The conditions you speak of can be treated by PTs and MDs and have better long term outcomes than chiro treatments. I would be willing to bet that 75% of "your" current patients don't have serious injury or pain.

Dentistry isn't a NEED. You don't NEED teeth, people went forever without dentistry. That is why most people pay cash at dentist.

I don't prescribe to Network or AK, but Don Epstein and the AK people have done more REAL research in those techniques than the old "rack em and crack em". Maybe you should see that. I would never use either, but they do have research.

Show me some creditable chiro research and tell me where some is being conducted.

All insurances cover chiro? Are you out of your mind. Tell me what state you are in and I will give you two that don't for every ONE that does.

The training chiros get is not a lot. I bet you can take a patient and have 10 chiros examine them and have 10 different diagnosis.

NO MD would go back to school for a few years to ADD chiro to their knowledge. They may have told you that, but most people in chiro school lie about why they are there.

I don't have an inferiority complex and I am not bitter. I had a great office that afforded me many luxuries. I also helped many people in my practice.

I said chiro works.. just that MDs can learn to do the little that chiros do and could take over the profession. I will do chiro in my office. A friend of mine who does neurology now, was a chiro. He adjusts people too.

Chiro is sooo limiting in what you do. Codes are not an issue.. the issue is to what procedures you do and can perform. You are trained and licensed to do nothing that a massage therapist can't do, with a 5 month education.

If you are satisfied with chiro.. then be happy.. Don't worry yourself with what I do and what I say.,.

That is the problem with most chiros.. worried about what the person down the street is doing or saying, not putting enough focus on your own practice.

Good luck with chiro. I still have a lot of friends who are still practicing. I wish them luck.. I also hope that chiro is still good and making money 7-9 years from now when I am done. However.. I was not willing to sit around and pray it would be.

Have a great day!!

[hunteradam07]

I know for ur medicare stops paying for chiro and acupunture since 2005 in CA. One of my friend closes his place down, because he lost load of pts from that. And guess what he is in med school now and year behind me. Another example of bitter, antagonist, unworth DC that will become a future MD. I wonder why so many DC went back to medical school if chiro educations is equal to Med. And how come most DC schools (for sure NYCC) would take MD credits (even not from USA) and allow them to graduate after only a few months of adjusting classes, yet NO other medical school in the world would take DC credits and allow them to graduate early (oh an University of Antigua doesnt count because they cant get residency after only sucker would go there). There is something a miss here. Maybe Emanon could answer it.

[emanon]

First of all.. there is no such thing as chiropractic medicine.. MEDICINE.. the healing art of prescribing MEDICATIONS....
You do that? I didn't know that was in the chiro scope of practice.


Let me make the official definition of the word MEDICINE a bit bigger for you. Just so you can see it from waaay up there on your high horse.


Main Entry: med·i·cine
Pronunciation: 'me-d&-s&n, Britain usually 'med-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin medicina, from feminine of medicinus of a physician, from medicus

:the science and art dealing with the maintenance of health and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease b : the branch of medicine concerned with the nonsurgical treatment of disease

I made more in REAL chiropractic last year than you will make in 10. Chiropractic.. treats spinal conditions, so how are extremity issues in the chiro scope. You may not know this.. but NJ just stopped chiros from doing extremity adjusting because is not in their scope.

Just to let you know, I am a CCSP, CCEP and a DACBR. I will assure you that my chiro education was better than most and my post graduate education in chiro is far superior to yours. I taught seminars on extremity adjusting, physical exams, insurance billing, chiro radiology and practice management. I worked for one of the top (if not the top) chiro practice consultants and I also worked for Tony Robbins International as a motivational speaker.

Really? You know me well enough to say that you have a better education and made more money than me? Every single one of your posts reeks of superiority and roused arrogance.

The conditions you speak of can be treated by PTs and MDs and have better long term outcomes than chiro treatments. I would be willing to bet that 75% of "your" current patients don't have serious injury or pain.


Again, you speak of things you have no knowledge of. Yet, you come across as if you sit in my office daily and know all my patients. And while those conditions can be treated by other HCP's, some patients chose to go the non-pharmaceutical route, which eliminates the MD. Or they want a practitioner that will address more than just the musclular and ligamentous aspect of their problem.

Dentistry isn't a NEED. You don't NEED teeth, people went forever without dentistry. That is why most people pay cash at dentist.


So how about you go a few years without a dentist? If you really don't NEED one, you should be ok, right? How about your kids stay away from the dentist for 5-6 years as well? Hell, if they lose an adult tooth or 2 they don't really NEED them. It's not like they'll die from not having a few teeth here and there. They've got 30 or so to spare. And I can also tell you that for some procedures people pay cash. For others their insurance covers it. I don't know what state you practiced and lived in, but where I live, dental coverage is almost universal. Again, this is coming from close friends who have been practicing dentists for close to 10 years. But hey, what do I know.

I don't prescribe to Network or AK, but Don Epstein and the AK people have done more REAL research in those techniques than the old "rack em and crack em". Maybe you should see that. I would never use either, but they do have research.

Show me some creditable chiro research and tell me where some is being conducted.

Take any school that doesn't subscribe to the subluxation complex hogwash, and you'll see that they have a research department. Mostly funded by private parites, hence the inadequacies on research. But some have been getting NIH grants as of late. So it's getting better.


All insurances cover chiro? Are you out of your mind. Tell me what state you are in and I will give you two that don't for every ONE that does.


Yeah, pretty much all do. Must be that little law that pretty much all states passed about 10 years ago. Thanks, President Clinton! I don't know what rock you were practicing under, but it's been the case for a while now.

Among the substantive changes made by 1997 N.Y. Laws 426 was the enactment of New York Insurance Law §§ 3216(i)(21) (McKinney 2000 and 2005 Supplement), regulating individual policies of commercial health insurers, and 3221(k)(11) (McKinney 2000 and 2004 Supplement), regulating the group policies of commercial insurers,:

(1) Every contract issued by a health service corporation . . . which is a ‘managed care product’ . . . that includes coverage for physician services in a physician's office, and every ‘managed care product’ that provides major medical or similar comprehensive-type coverage, shall include coverage for chiropractic care, as defined in section six thousand five hundred fifty-one of the education law, provided by a doctor of chiropractic licensed pursuant to article one hundred thirty-two of the education law, in connection with the detection or correction by manual or mechanical means of structural imbalance, distortion or subluxation in the human body for the purpose of removing nerve interference, and the effects thereof, where such interference is the result of or related to distortion, misalignment or subluxation of or in the vertebral column. However, chiropractic care and services may be subject to reasonable deductible, co-payment and co-insurance amounts, reasonable fee or benefit limits, and reasonable utilization review, provided that any such amounts, limits and review: (a) shall not function to direct treatment in a manner discriminative against chiropractic care, and (b) individually and collectively shall be no more restrictive than those applicable under the same policy to care or services provided by other health professionals in the diagnosis, treatment and management of the same or similar conditions, injuries, complaints, disorders or ailments, even if differing nomenclature is used to describe the condition, injury, complaint, disorder or ailment. . . .

The training chiros get is not a lot. I bet you can take a patient and have 10 chiros examine them and have 10 different diagnosis.

NO MD would go back to school for a few years to ADD chiro to their knowledge. They may have told you that, but most people in chiro school lie about why they are there.

Again, you claim to know a lot about other people, their intentions and their motives. Might as well say that most people in chiro school are thieves and liars. Since you're going to lump everyone in one group.

I don't have an inferiority complex and I am not bitter. I had a great office that afforded me many luxuries. I also helped many people in my practice.

I said chiro works.. just that MDs can learn to do the little that chiros do and could take over the profession. I will do chiro in my office. A friend of mine who does neurology now, was a chiro. He adjusts people too.

If you weren't bitter, you'd get you MD and practice allopathic medicine without the chiro bashing. Plenty of other DC's do that. They weren't happy with the personal choice they made, and went somewhere else.

Chiro is sooo limiting in what you do. Codes are not an issue.. the issue is to what procedures you do and can perform. You are trained and licensed to do nothing that a massage therapist can't do, with a 5 month education.


Once again, don't compare your ability, or lack thereof, to mine. You can wave your diplomates in my face all you want, but it seems like you were a "subluxation based" back cracker, and nothing more. That's the farthest thing from what my educational background prepared me for and it's not what I do.

If you are satisfied with chiro.. then be happy.. Don't worry yourself with what I do and what I say.,.

That is the problem with most chiros.. worried about what the person down the street is doing or saying, not putting enough focus on your own practice.

Good luck with chiro. I still have a lot of friends who are still practicing. I wish them luck.. I also hope that chiro is still good and making money 7-9 years from now when I am done. However.. I was not willing to sit around and pray it would be.

Have a great day!!

I don't worry about what anyone is saying. Just not thrilled with how some poeple may percieve my profession based on what some people around here are posting.

Too bad there are still people like you that go out of their way to slam other HCP's.

I also hope that chiro is still good and making money 7-9 years from now when I am done. However.. I was not willing to sit around and pray it would be.

Weren't you saying earlier how you hope MD's learn manipulation and make the DC's obsolete? So which one is it?

[AUCMD2006]

you can die from not getting a filling actually. the filling erodes and you get a tooth abscess that spreads reaches the back and you get a peritonsilar absccess or maybe goes into an air cell and you get mastoiditis?...either one can spread out from there and you have a happy camper in the icu

[drjohnwebb]

Let me make the official definition of the word MEDICINE a bit bigger for you. Just so you can see it from waaay up there on your high horse.


Main Entry: med·i·cine
Pronunciation: 'me-d&-s&n, Britain usually 'med-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin medicina, from feminine of medicinus of a physician, from medicus

:the science and art dealing with the maintenance of health and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease b : the branch of medicine concerned with the nonsurgical treatment of disease
What disease are YOU treating again?



Really? You know me well enough to say that you have a better education and made more money than me? Every single one of your posts reeks of superiority and roused arrogance.
It's called confindence and experience. You may get one some day when you quit working for another chiro for 38K a year and open your own practice.




Again, you speak of things you have no knowledge of. Yet, you come across as if you sit in my office daily and know all my patients. And while those conditions can be treated by other HCP's, some patients chose to go the non-pharmaceutical route, which eliminates the MD. Or they want a practitioner that will address more than just the musclular and ligamentous aspect of their problem.
A lot of MD do non medicinal treatments. What makes what you do so special?




So how about you go a few years without a dentist? If you really don't NEED one, you should be ok, right? How about your kids stay away from the dentist for 5-6 years as well? Hell, if they lose an adult tooth or 2 they don't really NEED them. It's not like they'll die from not having a few teeth here and there. They've got 30 or so to spare. And I can also tell you that for some procedures people pay cash. For others their insurance covers it. I don't know what state you practiced and lived in, but where I live, dental coverage is almost universal. Again, this is coming from close friends who have been practicing dentists for close to 10 years. But hey, what do I know.
You think you NEED a dentist? I beg to differ. I know many many people, whom have great healthy teeth and haven't been to a dentist in at least 10 years. IF you brush, floss and take care of your teeth properly... you don't NEED to go. However.. if you have pain, cavity, etc.. then it may be needed. Just like medicine.. if you take care of your body.. you don't NEED to go to a doctor.



Take any school that doesn't subscribe to the subluxation complex hogwash, and you'll see that they have a research department. Mostly funded by private parites, hence the inadequacies on research. But some have been getting NIH grants as of late. So it's getting better.
You tell me the last pro-chiropractic research that came out. Most of the recent ones all opposed chiropractic care. Anyone can get NIH grants.. that doesn't mean the research is supportive of chiro care.

Also.... the only thing that defines a chiropractor over othe HCP's is that they do adjust, to remove nerve interference. IF you don't do that.. then you are trying to be a PT or practicing medicine.





Yeah, pretty much all do. Must be that little law that pretty much all states passed about 10 years ago. Thanks, President Clinton! I don't know what rock you were practicing under, but it's been the case for a while now.
What law is that? The US is not an insurance equality nation and very few states are. No insurance company has to carry chiro.. or anything else of they don't want. IF the law was so good.. we wouldn't have 50 million American without health insurance. You have to still be in school.. You try to quote things your loser teachers told you, but you don't know what you are talking about. Pathetic.




Again, you claim to know a lot about other people, their intentions and their motives. Might as well say that most people in chiro school are thieves and liars. Since you're going to lump everyone in one group.
They do mislead the students in chiro school.



If you weren't bitter, you'd get you MD and practice allopathic medicine without the chiro bashing. Plenty of other DC's do that. They weren't happy with the personal choice they made, and went somewhere else.
I didn't bash what chiropractic is. Chiro works.. maybe you didn't see that.. however... the profession is sinking. Chiro's are their own worst enemies. You feel so inferior, that you think everyone else is against you and your profession.
Listen.. I know how you feel.. I used to be like you. Joe chiropractic. I was active in my state association, served on the board, etc. I just see the profession sinking.. you can see it differently, that is OK. I am not wet behind the ears and neither are my chiro friends, their fathers who have been in this for over 30 years (and getting out now too) or the countless chiros in medical school. We are tired of treating the same 5-7 conditions, fighting to get paid, getting no respect and all that to see the profession go in the dirt, eventually. We are in med school.. because we still want to help people.



Once again, don't compare your ability, or lack thereof, to mine. You can wave your diplomates in my face all you want, but it seems like you were a "subluxation based" back cracker, and nothing more. That's the farthest thing from what my educational background prepared me for and it's not what I do.
Subluxation based.. you have no idea. What is your base of practice? Do you do nutrition..no, that would make you a nutritionist, Rehab.. no.. that is PT, do you treat diseases.. no... that is medicine, do you prescribe or do surgery.. NO...
what is it that you treat again? Oh.. you are trying to be a semi-PT, MD want to be? That is what DOs did.. then they eventually had to become MDs, practically. The chiro profession has NO identity.


I don't worry about what anyone is saying. Just not thrilled with how some poeple may percieve my profession based on what some people around here are posting.
I am telling the straight truth. Go back to your teacher tomorrow and tell them I said so.

Too bad there are still people like you that go out of their way to slam other HCP's.
IF I wanted to slam chiros.. I could do it... If I wanted to do that, I would go into law and go after chiro malpractice cases, which are on the rise.

Weren't you saying earlier how you hope MD's learn manipulation and make the DC's obsolete? So which one is it?

I think the DCs out there will still be around, having to take all cash. Medicine can crush chiro anytime it wants. However, medicine has so many other avenues.. why would it want to pop backs.. or try to practice physical therapy?

Good Luck with school.

[emanon]

So which one is it? Do you think I'm in school and listen to my "loser teachers", or do you think I'm slaving away for another DC for 38K/year? At least make up your mind if you're going to start with the personal attacks.

How about option C. I've been in practice for a while and have enough experience to be able to tell that you're just chasing after that fancy MD title. Judging by some of your other posts on this site, money seems to be your main goal. Go bill those CPT codes. Make sure you get the max.

And I don't have to lie to patients, sign them up for package plans and do other ** you did to become as successful as you claim to be. My wife is in med school, which is being paid by me, not Sallie Mae. And it's just a bit better and a tad more expensive than SMU. And I don't have to live in a shack and ride a bike to be able to do it either.

I worked for someone for a year, and trust me, it was for much more than 38K/year. Don't project your own failures onto others.

In case you missed it, I quoted the NY law that states all commercial insurance companies have to cover chiro. Or did you conveniently skip over that part? Well, here it is again.

Among the substantive changes made by 1997 N.Y. Laws 426 was the enactment of New York Insurance Law §§ 3216(i)(21) (McKinney 2000 and 2005 Supplement), regulating individual policies of commercial health insurers, and 3221(k)(11) (McKinney 2000 and 2004 Supplement), regulating the group policies of commercial insurers,:

(1) Every contract issued by a health service corporation . . . which is a ‘managed care product’ . . . that includes coverage for physician services in a physician's office, and every ‘managed care product’ that provides major medical or similar comprehensive-type coverage, shall include coverage for chiropractic care, as defined in section six thousand five hundred fifty-one of the education law, provided by a doctor of chiropractic licensed pursuant to article one hundred thirty-two of the education law, in connection with the detection or correction by manual or mechanical means of structural imbalance, distortion or subluxation in the human body for the purpose of removing nerve interference, and the effects thereof, where such interference is the result of or related to distortion, misalignment or subluxation of or in the vertebral column. However, chiropractic care and services may be subject to reasonable deductible, co-payment and co-insurance amounts, reasonable fee or benefit limits, and reasonable utilization review, provided that any such amounts, limits and review: (a) shall not function to direct treatment in a manner discriminative against chiropractic care, and (b) individually and collectively shall be no more restrictive than those applicable under the same policy to care or services provided by other health professionals in the diagnosis, treatment and management of the same or similar conditions, injuries, complaints, disorders or ailments, even if differing nomenclature is used to describe the condition, injury, complaint, disorder or ailment. . .


Do you understand the concept of a SPECIALIST? Or do you think every MD should treat everything under the sun? MD's can treat tinea pedis too. But they refer that patient to a DPM. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you should. A cardiologist CAN treat a hernia. Should he? Not really.


One last question, and I'll leave you to your own over-inflated ego. Since you don't consider DC's "REAL" doctors, why are you referring to yourself as a Dr.? Why does your profile say "Chiropractic Physician"? I thought you had to do a residency and write out prescriptions to be a "real doctor"?

I'm done here. You've outlived your amusement value in my book. Make sure they give a separate diploma for your ego when you 2 graduate.

[drjohnwebb]

So which one is it? Do you think I'm in school and listen to my "loser teachers", or do you think I'm slaving away for another DC for 38K/year? At least make up your mind if you're going to start with the personal attacks.

How about option C. I've been in practice for a while and have enough experience to be able to tell that you're just chasing after that fancy MD title. Judging by some of your other posts on this site, money seems to be your main goal. Go bill those CPT codes. Make sure you get the max.
IF money was my goal.. I wouldn't stay in healthcare. My wife is an attorney and I co-own a few other businesses that gross more a year.. each.. than any chiro office I know of.. So.. let me assure you.. money is not an issue. There is NO real money in medicine. Yes, you can earn a good living, but you will never be "rich" from medicine.

And I don't have to lie to patients, sign them up for package plans and do other ** you did to become as successful as you claim to be. My wife is in med school, which is being paid by me, not Sallie Mae. And it's just a bit better and a tad more expensive than SMU. And I don't have to live in a shack and ride a bike to be able to do it either.
I would expect you to be able to pay 30-40k a year for your wife's school. I paid that for my two cars and insurance on them..alone... Don't brag. You should be able to write a check for all four years.

I worked for someone for a year, and trust me, it was for much more than 38K/year. Don't project your own failures onto others.
I never failed. I started my first practice on 25K that I borrowed against my life (almost literally).

In case you missed it, I quoted the NY law that states all commercial insurance companies have to cover chiro. Or did you conveniently skip over that part? Well, here it is again.
Hmm.. why are most of the DCs that are in med school from NY then? One in my class is from there. He made a good living, but he saw it going down fast.

Do you understand the concept of a SPECIALIST? Or do you think every MD should treat everything under the sun? MD's can treat tinea pedis too. But they refer that patient to a DPM. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you should. A cardiologist CAN treat a hernia. Should he? Not really.
I know what a specialist is.. and YOU are not one. You never answered what diseases you treat.

One last question, and I'll leave you to your own over-inflated ego. Since you don't consider DC's "REAL" doctors, why are you referring to yourself as a Dr.? Why does your profile say "Chiropractic Physician"? I thought you had to do a residency and write out prescriptions to be a "real doctor"?
I did consider myself a doctor, until I started medical school. Then I realized this is something worthy of using the title of DOCTOR, not what chiropractors go through, learn or what they do in practice.

I'm done here. You've outlived your amusement value in my book. Make sure they give a separate diploma for your ego when you 2 graduate.
They will.. They can add it to my other titles and degrees. I will have my MBA by then.. so that will be one more piece of paper on my wall..

HAHA..I feel sorry for you.. CHIRODEFENDER... and to think.. I used to be like you.. I am ashamed.

[hunteradam07]

Heh Emanon, i hope one day u will attend medical school and see for yourself what is the different betweent treating real pathological diseases instead of neuro-compression model of disease (subluxation complex) that was invented by B.J Palmer back in the days. And which did not have any pathophysiological bases to it. Oh before you get on ur rant about how u are not using subluxation complex model to threat your patients, the simple fact that u palpate ur patient's spine is to find out what segmental problems they have rite? Is that not the same as subluxation complex? Really what disease does chiro treat that can be explained by pathophysio? Please i hope you do no harm to ur patients and maybe some days u will see what we mean.

[drjohnwebb]

NO you didn't bring BJ into it.. this guy may go crazy now.. you crossed the line....HAHAHA

[dt]

Would you consider hypertension as a disease?

If so, how about this:

Significant Decrease in Blood Pressure Following Specialized Atlas Adjustment Chiropractic Treatment | News | Chiropractic Products (http://www.chiropub.com/news/2007-06-07_03.asp)


Chicago Study (http://www.foundation4cp.com/press_releases/ChicagoStudy.htm)


(heck, i dont know why i am even posting this...)

[drjohnwebb]

Would you consider hypertension as a disease?

If so, how about this:

Significant Decrease in Blood Pressure Following Specialized Atlas Adjustment Chiropractic Treatment | News | Chiropractic Products (http://www.chiropub.com/news/2007-06-07_03.asp)


Chicago Study (http://www.foundation4cp.com/press_releases/ChicagoStudy.htm)


(heck, i dont know why i am even posting this...)

I am glad you posted that. For my research elective in chiro school, we some what replicated that ONE study. We found that the same percentage of people's BP lowered after just laying down for 5 minutes, or after sitting for 7 minutes. Also, people who smoked had the greatest amount of drop in BP after a cigarette. Second was people who had a 15 minutes massage on their neck and shoulders.

Chiropractic adjustment to C1, C2, the entire cerival spine and the whole spine were also tested. The adjustments had the LEAST amount of effect on BP.

Sorry..

[ol' man]

:bored:................:roll:

[Jakeislove]

Couldn't read all the responses but the 50% stat is kind of true. If memory serves it also includes people working in schools as well.

The no standard of care criticism is also legit. Was talking to a really close friend yesterday.. he was telling me about how his diabetes was finally under control with weight loss and drugs.. I was immediately able to tell him what the drugs were. You never, ever, ever... ever know what you're going to get at a chiropractic office. kind of like that Forrest Gump box of chocolates saying, LOL! One Doctor (DC) I know was out of town once and his mother in law had to go see someone new in an emergency. This chiro's treatment involved being alone in a dark room with some african violet.

There are a lot of great chiropractors out there.

All that being said, I need an adjustment right now. Neck is killing me.