Research at Ross

[new_doctr]

This is directed to current and future Ross students. Given that some specialties look fondly upon research in that field, I was wondering what your opinions are on taking a semester or 2 off, during the MD program, to do research.

[Dru]

Not a student, but from what I know, if you have school loans and take a semester or two off, your loans will become due.

[singer]

This is directed to current and future Ross students. Given that some specialties look fondly upon research in that field, I was wondering what your opinions are on taking a semester or 2 off, during the MD program, to do research.

That is the biggest difference between ROSS and the US MEdical schools. At Ross, since 99.99999% of the students weren't able to get into a US MEdical school because there GPA or MCAT scores weren't high enough which would indicate that they would have difficulty in passing the USMLE tests. Therefore ROSS and I presume most FMG schools concentrate on basic sciences during the first two years. In many US Medical schools students can do research. My younger son is doing paid Orthopedic Surgery research at a US Medical School. He also has had clinical exposure from Day 1 at Medical school including a Step 2cs type of exposure with actors after each basic science class.

Remember you are at ROSS to because you couildn't get into a US Medical School. Consentrate on passing the USMLE tests and you can do research later on.

[bevo]

Research, even though I dont enjoy doing it much, is an important aspect for residency placement.

Its hard to get it when we're down on the island, but hard to do when we're in clinicals because of time commitments and the places we rotate generally aren't academic centers heavily involved in research.

Its become an unspoken requirement for some of the more competitive residencies and competitive medicine fellowships.

I dont know that I would take off a semester or 2 to do research, but once you start clinicals I would look to get involved in some clinical research you'd enjoy.

[diphylobrothum]

Be smart about this, you are able to participate in research at wyckoff under the director of hospital research, you take a formal GCP course (good clinical practices course, which you show to your PD at your interview), then you find a faculty advisor and start research in that field, you keep a full log of all your time (hrs recorded) and at the end, if the material is valuable it may be publishable. In addition, you do all this during your rotations while accuring APPROVED ROSS credit (I belive a max of 4 credits). If your a hard worker this is very feasible. DO NOT take time off, if your "field" looks favorably upon research, then do the research course. In addition, you now will accrue extra credits, more than likely another LOR, and have the background many PDs look for.

b12

[Junito]

You can do research while in clinicals. Though I don't advise it for everyone, you could look into enrolling in a MPH program while in medical school. I am currently enrolled at Brooklyn College and have completed half the degree already. It can be a pain in the gluteal at times but I take classes twice a week in the evening. Tuition is inexpensive for NYS residents (about $1700 for 6 credits).

I will be conducting research that involves dioxin toxicity and gene induction for my thesis project (my faculty advisor is a toxicologist). I also plan on doing my internship for the MPH at a site that relates to the field I want to eventually practice in. Hope this helps.

[rokshana]

That is the biggest difference between ROSS and the US MEdical schools. At Ross, since 99.99999% of the students weren't able to get into a US MEdical school because there GPA or MCAT scores weren't high enough which would indicate that they would have difficulty in passing the USMLE tests. Therefore ROSS and I presume most FMG schools concentrate on basic sciences during the first two years. In many US Medical schools students can do research. My younger son is doing paid Orthopedic Surgery research at a US Medical School. He also has had clinical exposure from Day 1 at Medical school including a Step 2cs type of exposure with actors after each basic science class.

Remember you are at ROSS to because you couildn't get into a US Medical School. Consentrate on passing the USMLE tests and you can do research later on.

while i respect that you must be a long time poster-- you are very derogatory towards the caribbean schools and wonder why you even bother to post here (other than to gloat about your US med school son),you need to realize that while most of us did not get into a US allo school, we are not all substandard and there but the grace of God... I have met many people in the caribbean schools that would have done just fine if not excelled at a US school ( and conversely know people who got into US schools and I honestly have no idea HOW they did it- there is probably going to be a building on campus named after them soon...

and I can't speak to how Ross handles research for their students, but research is possible at other schools- at sgu there is the WINDREF center that does allow for the opportunity to do research, as well as the MPH program. These ,of course, are opportunities for basic science research, but I'm sure there are many visiting professors that do research at their home schools and would be willing to have free help in their labs. You can easily do this during breaks and what not.
During clinicals, it is probably much easier to find someone who is doing active clinical research and work something out to make a 4th year elective out of some research.

and let's face it- the only time a US med student takes time out to do reasearch (unless the school schedules required research) is if they are in the MSTP or they are studying for step I again( or waiting for the scores). Most med students do research during the summer after their 1st year or during 4th year (and that is usually a basic science elective).

[new_doctr]

Thanks everyone for your responses, they are much appreciated and valuable to myself and to others who may have not even considered this potentially valuable aspect of their education.

Diphylobrothum and Junito made interesting points which I thank them for and hope they can expand on a little..

To Diphylobrothum: Is the GCP course a sort of thesis project course where you work under a faculty advisor? Or is it a means to meet such an advisor to pursue research with him? Are elective credits taken during clinicals? A little more info. on this would be much appreciated, as it sounds like the most feasible and integrated option.

To Junito: What are the requirements for the MPH program? Are the NY schools open to Carrib. students? How much time do clinicals consume (ie what how much free time would one have to pursue the MPH)?

Thanks again all

[singer]

while i respect that you must be a long time poster-- you are very derogatory towards the caribbean schools and wonder why you even bother to post here (other than to gloat about your US med school son),you need to realize that while most of us did not get into a US allo school, we are not all substandard and there but the grace of God... I have met many people in the caribbean schools that would have done just fine if not excelled at a US school ( and conversely know people who got into US schools and I honestly have no idea HOW they did it- there is probably going to be a building on campus named after them soon...

and I can't speak to how Ross handles research for their students, but research is possible at other schools- at sgu there is the WINDREF center that does allow for the opportunity to do research, as well as the MPH program. These ,of course, are opportunities for basic science research, but I'm sure there are many visiting professors that do research at their home schools and would be willing to have free help in their labs. You can easily do this during breaks and what not.
During clinicals, it is probably much easier to find someone who is doing active clinical research and work something out to make a 4th year elective out of some research.

and let's face it- the only time a US med student takes time out to do reasearch (unless the school schedules required research) is if they are in the MSTP or they are studying for step I again( or waiting for the scores). Most med students do research during the summer after their 1st year or during 4th year (and that is usually a basic science elective).

Rokshana:

I think you see my posting in the wrong light. I am not trying to gloat about my son who is in a US Medical school. By having one son at Ross and one in a US Medical School I as a father can see the differences in the two schools. Most students at Carib schools, including my son couldn't get into a US Medical school. Ross has allowed him and all the other students as do SGU , AUC and the other Carib Schools an opportunity to become an MD. I am proud that my Ross son is now staring the residency interview process and that Ross has given him the TOOLS necessary to pass the first two parts of the USMLE exam.

I really beleive that most Carib students need to spend much of their time concentrating on passing their basic science courses and concentrating on studying for the USMLE exams. Yes you an Junito are correct when you state that some of the unusally bright Carib students can do research.

As far as my younger son goes he is doing Paid Orthepedic Research three hours a day during the year. Hopefully this will help him in obtaining a better residency. I wasn't bragging I was just stating the difference in MOST Carib and US students and the difference between US and CARIB Medical Schools.

[Junito]

I took the GRE a few years back and this was accepted. I believe some programs are willing to accept the MCAT in lieu of the GRE score. Brooklyn College is a FMG friendly program, well they have been very nice to me ;). I also heard of a program starting at SUNY downstate. I believe there is a MPH program at Hunter College also. Haven't looked into it. If you are interested in doing some online courses, I noticed that John Hopkins also offers a MPH that is 80% online (you have to attend a one week seminar in Jan). But that of course is more expensive :mrgreen:

Here is a link to BC's website:
Department of Health and Nutrition Sciences, Brooklyn College (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/hns/)

Clinicals take up some time, but if you budget your time carefully it is possible. All my classes at BC are after 6 pm. BC was a perfect fit for me: is in Brooklyn, classes are in the evening and inexpensive. Hope this helps.


Thanks everyone for your responses, they are much appreciated and valuable to myself and to others who may have not even considered this potentially valuable aspect of their education.

Diphylobrothum and Junito made interesting points which I thank them for and hope they can expand on a little..

To Diphylobrothum: Is the GCP course a sort of thesis project course where you work under a faculty advisor? Or is it a means to meet such an advisor to pursue research with him? Are elective credits taken during clinicals? A little more info. on this would be much appreciated, as it sounds like the most feasible and integrated option.

To Junito: What are the requirements for the MPH program? Are the NY schools open to Carrib. students? How much time do clinicals consume (ie what how much free time would one have to pursue the MPH)?

Thanks again all

[diphylobrothum]

research at ross is offered as an elective in the clinical years. You start out by taking an approved course online called GCP (good clinical practices) that informs you as to what is viable research how to approach sensitive research on human subjects, how to deal with the IRB (institutional review boards), it is a foundation course. You need to work under an advisor. Many Docs at wyckoff are very receptive to this and if you ask the right one (the one in the field you want to do research) you can start either prospective or retrospective studies. Mind you that prospective studies will take a while, and that requires approval from the resarch and grants commmittee and the IRB. Retrospective studies, like chart review to determine assurance is what many do - you just need the advisor to help you. All you have to do is speak to the graduate medical education director and he will send you to the research director to start the course. I am only versed in wyckoffs offerings, I do not know what other hospitals offer and how they go about it.

b12

[popozao]

i'm not interested in research. I just want to learn the necessary clinical skills to be a decent doctor.

please enlighten me.
which fields do not really give a crap about research?

i'm only interested in anesthesia, ob/gyn, and perhaps IM.

[rokshana]

i'm not interested in research. I just want to learn the necessary clinical skills to be a decent doctor.

please enlighten me.
which fields do not really give a crap about research?

i'm only interested in anesthesia, ob/gyn, and perhaps IM.

check out the freida website- it gives you info on the year to year schedule for the residents and whether research is a requirement of the program. Usually community-based programs don't put as much emphasis on research- they may give you the opportunity to do it, but not require it of you.

[new_doctr]

If one has no desire to do research, then put your energy into other things.
Almost 50% of medical students in the US are involved in research, and a publication with your name on it will help you get into a more competitive school/specialty. If your goal is, as mentioned, a small community-based program, then probably don;t worry about it.
A publication in the field may be the tipping point when it comes to the more competitive programs. Considering we're coming from the Carib., I would think any edge should be considered important.

[ut_cougar]

I am unbiased and FYI to the person who posted the below- I have heard many more people tell me that the Ross and SGU grads are much more prepared and make better physicians than many US grads...This is just what I have heard from US grads who work with Ross and SGU grads, rotation hospitals with a mix from all schools, and from others who have either experience along side these docs or have been treated by these docs. I dont doubt your US son is having a great time working, etc but in the end you will see which one makes the better physician and person...you never know who it might be. Another tidbit of info- I currently know multiple Ross students who had amazing credentials but were not able to make it into their respective states' schools. One example out of many is a guy I know who applied within Texas after graduating from UT@Austin with a 3.55 or so and a 28 or 29 MCAT. I am a bit hazy but I think it was a 28. He had some work experience, did a BA in Biology, overall great pick but just didnt make it for whatever reasons so he didnt want to wait and reapply and is now at Ross. There is another guy I know, actually from this site, who graduated from UT also with very similar stats but a different Biology degree and he applied twice with no luck...now at Ross I believe, or possibly SGU. I know many examples of people like this. I also know students who who graduated with 2.2's from state schools and got 18's on the MCAT and are now in the top in their class at carib schools, some of which scored breath-taking Step 1 scores. Main idea is that anything is possible in the future, and nothing from the past can hold you down.

Rokshana:

I think you see my posting in the wrong light. I am not trying to gloat about my son who is in a US Medical school. By having one son at Ross and one in a US Medical School I as a father can see the differences in the two schools. Most students at Carib schools, including my son couldn't get into a US Medical school. Ross has allowed him and all the other students as do SGU , AUC and the other Carib Schools an opportunity to become an MD. I am proud that my Ross son is now staring the residency interview process and that Ross has given him the TOOLS necessary to pass the first two parts of the USMLE exam.

I really beleive that most Carib students need to spend much of their time concentrating on passing their basic science courses and concentrating on studying for the USMLE exams. Yes you an Junito are correct when you state that some of the unusally bright Carib students can do research.

As far as my younger son goes he is doing Paid Orthepedic Research three hours a day during the year. Hopefully this will help him in obtaining a better residency. I wasn't bragging I was just stating the difference in MOST Carib and US students and the difference between US and CARIB Medical Schools.

[homerbrave]

That is the biggest difference between ROSS and the US MEdical schools. At Ross, since 99.99999% of the students weren't able to get into a US MEdical school because there GPA or MCAT scores weren't high enough which would indicate that they would have difficulty in passing the USMLE tests. Therefore ROSS and I presume most FMG schools concentrate on basic sciences during the first two years. In many US Medical schools students can do research. My younger son is doing paid Orthopedic Surgery research at a US Medical School. He also has had clinical exposure from Day 1 at Medical school including a Step 2cs type of exposure with actors after each basic science class.

Remember you are at ROSS to because you couildn't get into a US Medical School. Consentrate on passing the USMLE tests and you can do research later on.

Your other son who goes to RUSM must feel like a real 'winner' everytime he reads one of your highly subjective posts comparing Carribbean med. schools vs. US med. schools.

The irony is when you get a bit older and become ill, you RUSM son who completed the medicine residency (which you consider an inferior residency) will be able to provide you with free medical care while your beloved US Med. grad. , the the orthopedic, won't be able to.

Now that I have begun my residency, I really have much more respect for the Medicine/FP docs. vs. the other specialties, including my own. At RUSM I felt compelled to pursue a speacialty b/c of the "looser" stigma of FP/IM that many people feel toward FP/IM but boy was I wrong! IM/FP is where it's at if you want to be a real doctor! I've met lots of brilliant MDs from NYU, Georgetown, Brown, UCLA, etc. who have pursued general medicine and are really satisfied with their decisions at my program.

[homerbrave]

I am unbiased and FYI to the person who posted the below- I have heard many more people tell me that the Ross and SGU grads are much more prepared and make better physicians than many US grads...This is just what I have heard from US grads who work with Ross and SGU grads, rotation hospitals with a mix from all schools, and from others who have either experience along side these docs or have been treated by these docs. I dont doubt your US son is having a great time working, etc but in the end you will see which one makes the better physician and person...you never know who it might be. Another tidbit of info- I currently know multiple Ross students who had amazing credentials but were not able to make it into their respective states' schools. One example out of many is a guy I know who applied within Texas after graduating from UT@Austin with a 3.55 or so and a 28 or 29 MCAT. I am a bit hazy but I think it was a 28. He had some work experience, did a BA in Biology, overall great pick but just didnt make it for whatever reasons so he didnt want to wait and reapply and is now at Ross. There is another guy I know, actually from this site, who graduated from UT also with very similar stats but a different Biology degree and he applied twice with no luck...now at Ross I believe, or possibly SGU. I know many examples of people like this. I also know students who who graduated with 2.2's from state schools and got 18's on the MCAT and are now in the top in their class at carib schools, some of which scored breath-taking Step 1 scores. Main idea is that anything is possible in the future, and nothing from the past can hold you down.

Excellent post! Individuals who have never attended or work with multiple USIMGs will never get it and make subjective statements like "99.99999% of USIMGs went to x,y,z b/c they don't have the grades to make it to US med. schools". anyone who has ever worked with lots of USIMGs know otherwise.....

I have seen many senior residents/attendings eyes popped wide opened when they found out where I went to med. school. Most just assumed I went to a middle to top-tier US med. school. And no, I have yet to draw any blood, placed IVs, ABGs, beg nurses for tegaderms, etc. I've impressed lots of attendig with my readings of CXRs, KUBs, CT, and MRIs which I learned at the Wyckoff Radiology/pulmonary rotations though.

[popozao]

since several of you grads are posting here........

how many of you did research?

Are residencies divided into 2 general groups- small community, and university/academic?

check out the freida website- it gives you info on the year to year schedule for the residents and whether research is a requirement of the program. Usually community-based programs don't put as much emphasis on research- they may give you the opportunity to do it, but not require it of you.

I looked at frieda briefly, and i can't find the research info you are referring to. for instance, yale anesthesia. I'd assume it would require research, no?:
FREIDA yale info. click me (http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,0400821030,00.html)

i also looked at ob/gyn broadly, and there is no mention of research req's

[bevo]

To look for research, best bet sometimes is to look up different doctors at academic institutions. Search for their name on pubmed, see if they are actively publishing. And then try and contact them about an opportunity to work with them, etc.

[rokshana]

since several of you grads are posting here........

how many of you did research?

Are residencies divided into 2 general groups- small community, and university/academic?



I looked at frieda briefly, and i can't find the research info you are referring to. for instance, yale anesthesia. I'd assume it would require research, no?:
FREIDA yale info. click me (http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,0400821030,00.html)

i also looked at ob/gyn broadly, and there is no mention of research req's

don't assume just because a program is at a prestigious school that it is one as well...the yale anes program hasn't filled in the last few years
do the search plus mode- that can show it as well as click on the website link- it generally will take you straight to the programs homepage.

for example

CURRICULUM (http://www.anes.uab.edu/boudreaux/curriculum.htm)

they have a research track where you can do 6 months of research, but they have a subspecialty track, where you just do subspecialty rotations in the CA-2 year.
It takes a little research(and you'll need to do this type of research!!), but the info is out there!

[popozao]

CURRICULUM (http://www.anes.uab.edu/boudreaux/curriculum.htm)

they have a research track where you can do 6 months of research, but they have a subspecialty track, where you just do subspecialty rotations in the CA-2 year.
It takes a little research(and you'll need to do this type of research!!), but the info is out there!



but those are residency programs. I thought we were talking about research during 3rd and 4th year non-MD clerkships.?

I don't wanna waste time doing research during my 3rd and 4th years.

[my.milkshake]

I'm planning on doing some research during the clinical years.

[new_doctr]

popozao (http://www.valuemd.com/members/popozao.html), I am not aware of explicit research requirements at US schools, but have talked to some relatives, friends and through them certified physicians in cardio, neuro, orthoped. srg, they all seem to suggest that at schools which are known for their particular specialty look very positively on strong candidates with research in that particular field. It is not required to do research, and perhaps you are not looking to apply to extremely competitive programs, or perhaps your strong numbers and references will be sufficient to show interviewers at these schools that you have a special interest in their field over US or Cdn students. Perhaps they will not. My point is that since we are Carrib. applicants, the route to top programs where most applicants have strong resumes is much more difficult. Hence logic says give yourself a measurable edge. If you feel such work would detract from your numbers, then certainly do not pursue it. But if you are looking to give yourself an edge, this may be a way.
Remember, about 50% of US students will have some research, only 1/3 of those publish. I want to be in that 3rd and hopefully I can land that Hopkins cardio fellowship :-)

[rokshana]

but those are residency programs. I thought we were talking about research during 3rd and 4th year non-MD clerkships.?

I don't wanna waste time doing research during my 3rd and 4th years.

sorry!! I thought you didn't want to do research during residency!!! hence the freida referral.

[popozao]

popozao (http://www.valuemd.com/members/popozao.html), I am not aware of explicit research requirements at US schools, but have talked to some relatives, friends and through them certified physicians in cardio, neuro, orthoped. srg, they all seem to suggest that at schools which are known for their particular specialty look very positively on strong candidates with research in that particular field. It is not required to do research, and perhaps you are not looking to apply to extremely competitive programs, or perhaps your strong numbers and references will be sufficient to show interviewers at these schools that you have a special interest in their field over US or Cdn students. Perhaps they will not. My point is that since we are Carrib. applicants, the route to top programs where most applicants have strong resumes is much more difficult. Hence logic says give yourself a measurable edge. If you feel such work would detract from your numbers, then certainly do not pursue it. But if you are looking to give yourself an edge, this may be a way.
Remember, about 50% of US students will have some research, only 1/3 of those publish. I want to be in that 3rd and hopefully I can land that Hopkins cardio fellowship :-)


well i guess i have nothing to worry about then. I don't care about those 50% who are playing with rats & monkeys, and calling it research. I don't wanna get into the most competitive residencies. my very average grades would probably not qualify me anyway. And being a carib student, my residency choices are already limited to 2nd tier at best, with all the fmg-unfriendly places.

My main concern is to get "a" residency in the field i want, and practice in a place with plenty of patients. I figure that over time, i can learn all i need to learn wherever i end up, and still earn six figures anyway. I just want to make a decent living, not bust my huevos.

[bevo]

research doesn't necessarily entail lab work.

I would strongly anyone to get involved, even if its just writing case reports and submitting them for publication. At least for radiology, I know its a big deal. Some programs look for it. Some programs require that residents publish a certain amount of cases per year.

Plus I think it shows that you can achieve and learn on a heavy core rotation but also find the time to do stuff beyond your required courses.

[popozao]

Plus I think it shows that you can achieve and learn on a heavy core rotation but also find the time to do stuff beyond your required courses.



i'd rather relax, party, enjoy myself if i had free time. school is stressful enough

[popozao]

i was just looking at 2005 match stats, and in every specialty, 80+% of students are involved in some research project.

Are there really that many research projects going on? or do many students do silly insignificant research?