Giant Class Sizes are Destroying SGU's Rep

[cypress_3000]

Disturbing trend at SGU: giant class sizes are decreasing the quality of students and hurting SGU's reputation.

This, coupled with the loss of several prominent professors in recent times, is going to really hurt SGU in the long run.

[jaywalk81]

well actually the class size is more or less the same if its looking from the total newly admitted students. the class size is huge is because of the many and many students who have either failed a class, or two, or three or those who have chose to decel for whatever reasons. thus the combination of newly admitted and the ones that should have went on to the next term have been the cause of the huge class in term 1 this semester, which is about 400 from what i heard

[orthonut]

yeah, just from an outsider (vetty type) I've been here the last 3 terms-and they're all the same size -give or take 10-15 ppl. And I'm with Jay (hey cowboy!) I have noticed a few decels (some by choice, some maybe not by choice) and then there are always a few come in from MPH and PreMed-but relatively, as someone from the outside that's been to the last few white coats, they're all about the same size (now, I know that doesn't comfort you much when you're fighting for a seat in Bell or Bourne or on the bus, or trying to find somewhere to study...)

keep yer chin up grasshopper, it'll be ok.

I don't think it's the large class size that hurts us as MUCH as say, things like maybe changing the schedule to "make things easier" like one recent RUMOR (again, pointing out that this was a rumor, not the reason for the recent discussion) Hmm. What an excellent idea. Let's take a school that is known for producing kick butt grads that have a high pass rate on USMLEs and have a reputation for outshining their US trained peers (I am not saying that we are better than them, just saying we might have it better than they do-this having it tougher can have advantages) and DUMB THINGS DOWN (this is how some people percieved things, again, not how the situation actually was, but how some people *ala* telephone game, thought the situation was).

I think we're a tough school. I admire all you guys do on the human med side-I couldn't do it-just one example-if I see my pt in pain, I can give him meds-yours can refuse...I don't have to worry about catching every little thing my patients have... (ok, so that was two things lol) My Tx Longhorns hat's off to y'all.

[vtrain]

the class size is needed to keep up with SGUs rising operating costs. I fail to see how a large class size hurts SGUs rep. All students must pass boards to be admitted further and if you can make the grade, who cares how many students they accept. i think sometimes a large class size makes the admitted student feel less "special" b/c they see they were admitted with many others and it's a blow to their egos. In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter one bit. I can tell you that there is no way that sgu will ever decrease their class size, in fact, look for it to go up in the near future.

[stephew]

frankly cypress; while i agree the classes are disgustingly large, i think you're really just taking a short term view. sgu's classes have been swelling for years now. also in all offshore schools there is a relatively high turnover of faculty. sgu's is probably amongst the lowest in fact. you're concern rises out of data from probably no more than a couple of years. Look over half a decade, longer even, and you'll see this probably has no effect whatsoever on sgu's rep. also, as of yet i have no reason to think the quality of education has been harmed by lclass size. at some point however this would happen.

[MYung]

I think the current class sizes are at the upper limits of what SGU can accommodate in terms of facilities. However, I doubt that the large class size has decreased the quality of students admitted. I think over the last year or so, the number of applications have increased 30%. Alot of qualified applicants are turned away. A student would not be admitted if the admissions committee doesn't believe they will succeed at SGU.

In terms of professors, most universities will have professor turnover through retirement, relocation, etc. However, we have to look at who comes in to replace them. Most important for the student is not how prominent a professor is, but how well they are able to teach you the material you need for your boards and for your practice. It doesn't matter if the prof is famous but teaches you things that are relevant to research but not the practice of medicine.

Marco

[jaywalk81]

what marco said...

most profs usually teach you what interest them or what they are researching on, however most oif not all profs here teach you whats clinically important and what you will see on the boards.

[EpiDoc]

With the large incoming class sizes now, I would be concerned about the number of spots available for clinicals in the coming years. Is it relatively easy for SGU to add clinical spots for students or clinical educators? What about adding more clinical centers? One of the main advantages to SGU is the clinical centers so students don't have to scramble all over the US for rotations. Hopefully, that does not change for incoming students.

[orthonut]

oh and FYI...the new construction site in front of Z bldg? That'll be the new 700+ seat lecture hall. So we can have white coats on campus...and they can have bigger class sizes (ok, so only the first part of that sentence is official)

[Saora1]

oh and FYI...the new construction site in front of Z bldg? That'll be the new 700+ seat lecture hall.

Is that true that they're building a 700-seat lecture hall there?

Will be in Gnd this weekend. If I bother going to the campus (the only reason being to maybe go to the gym if I'm not too full from mommy stuffing me) guess I'll see...

[jaywalk81]

yea they will be building a 700+ lecture type of hall by the z-bldg. thats not a rumor. it will be used for any ceremony and also for testing purposes , that way there would not be a need to split a class into 2 different lecture halls for an exam.

[envivany1]

I find it a little hard to believe that they would build a 700 sitter lecture hall just for ceremonies and exam days. Undergrad and Masters students use the SD1 study room as a class room, we are pretty limited on space and resource. So it is unlikely that all that money would be spent to build a hall that would only be used for ceremonies and exams

[jaywalk81]

granted that it will not be soley used for those 2 purposes, but i dont want to be the one that starts spreading that the med term 1 class will one day be at 700 students...

oh wait..did i just do what i said i didnt want to do?

[Silenthunder]

I don't know if the pass rate is dropping, but.....

1.) stephew brought up an argument a while ago that bears merit : its interesting to look at how many students actually write boards and/or graduate with their original class - I believe : this may lead some to believe that quality of students admitted may be slipping.....

2.) the pass rate reported is a bit odd looking - its being reported as an 'eight year average pass rate of 90%' (Graduate And Student Success (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Home/GraduateStudentSuccess.htm))

(I remember when it used to say 5 year pass rate of 90% - I'm guessing this time next year it may say 9 year pass rate......)

my point I guess is: this is a VERY suspicious looking figure to me - made even more suspicious by their odd looking figure where the sgu pass rate seems to be digressing further from the average US/Canada pass rate.

3. I find the quality of education is starting to slip with the large class sizes; my pathology lab group had 13 people assigned to it initially - too many to fit at one table - and I would find myself often not being able to hear the tutor and/or person presenting. I could not participate effectively in group discussion in that setting.

my PD group this term is 11 people!!!! I don't know how much 'hands on' experience I'm going to get with 10 people vying for time with one patient......

On the plus side: my experiences at the hospital in Vinnies have been quite rewarding, and the doctor/instructors are quite enthusiastic about dealing with students.

Cheers,

Silenthunder

[stephew]

well while sgu's pass rate dropped since, well, my day, its VERY imporant to know this parallels a drop in the USMLE overall among US students. US passrate dipped to 88% a few years ago. (2001 or 02?) The difference between the two (Sgu and US) is fairly slim. within 5 %. Anyway sgu happens to be honest about their pass rate. so they report the 5 year overall pass rate because they dont trust that someone looking at the numbers will bother to research the fact that the years sgu's rate down, so did the US rate. And they probably dont trust all the other schools that report absurdly high pass rates (classically leaving out the huge percent who fail before making it to the boards)

there was one sgu year where the pass rate was 86%- teh same year the us pass rate was 88%. (i have to double check those numbers but this is from my memory). Sgu wasn't thrilled about seeing the numbers dip however it really was no different from the us pass rate. probably just a tough exam year. so silent thunder is NOT "very suspicous". its in fact quite acturate albeit it attempts to not have to explain it self, even though there is a good explanation. Remember most people dont know to make these comparisons.


as for how the class size effects teaching, I really am in no position to say. In a lecture, probably not much. If you say it effects small groups, so be it.

I think the more people who express their views on this the better sence we get.

[MYung]

Steph, you're right, there was a big drop in the SGU step one pass rate either in 2001 or 2002. The next year, the pass rate went back up. If we're only looking at the average pass rate over 5 years, a big decrease in one year will tend to skew the data (ha...and we all thought biostats was useless). By going to a 8 year average, it would diminish the effect of that one year, giving a more representative long term trend.

In terms of the 700 seat lecture hall, we need to also consider the long term goals of the school. SGU is no longer just an offshore medical school. There has been alot of emphasis in developing SGU into a university that meets the needs of higher education in the region, including graduate, undergraduate and other professional programs. I doubt that the lecutre hall is being built with the thought of increasing the medical class size to 700. I think that its more probable that the lecture hall is being built to fit the needs of the school's other programs. For example, the undergraduate program has grown exponetially the past few years. Plus, it would allow the school to participate in alot of other activities to enhance our prestige and status, ie. hosting large regional/international conferences, etc.

Marco

[orthonut]

Is that true that they're building a 700-seat lecture hall there?

Will be in Gnd this weekend. If I bother going to the campus (the only reason being to maybe go to the gym if I'm not too full from mommy stuffing me) guess I'll see...
Yeah. Straight from Dr M's mouth the part about the "so we can have white coats ceremonies on campus"

And I know we're not going to just use it for white coats and exams lol. duh, that would be silly. Of course we're going to use it to show Grey's Anatomy like we're using the PD lab to show House MD.... ;)

The next bldg down (across the road, down by the Marion Lecture Hall/Lower Vet Lecture Hall is going to be the new vet lecture halls...so we'll actually have a space to fit into...gonna be nice, having our own place, not a hand-me-down one :)

[rokshana]

Yeah. Straight from Dr M's mouth the part about the "so we can have white coats ceremonies on campus"

And I know we're not going to just use it for white coats and exams lol. duh, that would be silly. Of course we're going to use it to show Grey's Anatomy like we're using the PD lab to show House MD.... ;)

The next bldg down (across the road, down by the Marion Lecture Hall/Lower Vet Lecture Hall is going to be the new vet lecture halls...so we'll actually have a space to fit into...gonna be nice, having our own place, not a hand-me-down one :)

now if they would just give you the proper white coat during the ceremony!!

[pirateofthe]

how big are these new class sizes? are we talking an incoming class of 400 kids?

[Saora1]

are we talking an incoming class of 400 kids?
No. Some of them are older than 12.

That is the figure I've heard thrown around as the eventual goal but it's not official until then and is just a rumour which appears to be true. I've seen incoming classes getting bigger each term so who knows.

[pirateofthe]

okay... so how many students are in the first year-class? (and do you know, out of how many applicants?)

[Saora1]

Not a clue. I'm not in Grenada and, quite frankly, wouldn't even know if I were.

And no one except Bayshore will know how many applicants.

[rokshana]

No. Some of them are older than 12.

That is the figure I've heard thrown around as the eventual goal but it's not official until then and is just a rumour which appears to be true. I've seen incoming classes getting bigger each term so who knows.

Chancellor M came down the semester after Ivan Spring 05 and in his talk to the students, specifically said that his goal was to have class reach 450- and while there had been much discussion, he was firm on that number being the eventual class size.

[pirateofthe]

eventual class size? how about right now - what's the current class size?

[RussianJoo]

350-380 about

[jaywalk81]

from what i heard from a 1st termer, 406. this is including all the ones that failed or decelled from last term. but it would only be that big in certain classes and not all. cuz noone can decel all 1st term classes and if you failed all 1st term classes, you are not coming back

[my.milkshake]

It's still not as big as Ross though, right?

[envivany1]

Ross is actually smaller, however they admit student three times a year; so overall it is bigger

[drnick07]

With the large incoming class sizes now, I would be concerned about the number of spots available for clinicals in the coming years. Is it relatively easy for SGU to add clinical spots for students or clinical educators? What about adding more clinical centers? One of the main advantages to SGU is the clinical centers so students don't have to scramble all over the US for rotations. Hopefully, that does not change for incoming students.
Every year more hospital affiliations are added. At last count i think i read 50 hospitals on the list.

On the original topic, i think increased class size is hurting SGU. Since i don't think the # of people applying to north american medical schools is increasing, the "cream of the crop" stays about the same each year. So to increase class size at SGU, more and more of the "stalk and roots" (continuning with the analogy/cliche) is included. Still though, USMLEs are the one equalizer and from what i can tell the scores are not trending downwards. Only time is to tell since the large classes are just now taking the Steps.

[aliendroid]

Every year more hospital affiliations are added. At last count i think i read 50 hospitals on the list.

On the original topic, i think increased class size is hurting SGU. Since i don't think the # of people applying to north american medical schools is increasing, the "cream of the crop" stays about the same each year. So to increase class size at SGU, more and more of the "stalk and roots" (continuning with the analogy/cliche) is included. Still though, USMLEs are the one equalizer and from what i can tell the scores are not trending downwards. Only time is to tell since the large classes are just now taking the Steps.

I wish SGU all the success in their plans in the future and if they want to increase class size that's ok. I think it's great that there is a school out there for people that are able to become good doctors but who are looked down upon by american medical schools for stupid reasons. Actually american schools have to find excuses to reject people because there are too many applicants. I think SGU helps reduce the problem with doctor shortages. I personally have an average GPA for SGU and a high MCAT but I have 4 F's on my transcript which have kept me from going to an american school so far. Lots of rejections and I know for a fact that I will do very good in medical school. I view SGU as a chance to still achieve my dream.

[jaywalk81]

SGU needsbetter guidelines in accepting students. some ppl i know just dont have what it takes socially to be in this field. i hae no clue how they even got thro the interview process with no social skills what so ever

[payal83]

ditto jaywalk

although this new term seems to be statistically "smarter" than the last term, I'm not sure if SGU checks maturity level overall (not just current 1st term) Their GPA's and MCAT score averages were higher than last terms'.

[Saora1]

SGU needsbetter guidelines in accepting students. some ppl i know just dont have what it takes socially to be in this field. i hae no clue how they even got thro the interview process with no social skills what so ever
Truer words have never been spoken (in my opinion) on this forum. Now we're not all going to get along but I really wonder about some people. In fact, I wonder almost every day and the thought "YOU're going to be a doctor??!!" crosses my mind way too often.

Sadly, I'm not just talking about people with no "social skills" but some downright weird and creepy individuals who seem to lack any kind of morals and normal thought processes whatsoever.

Not two days ago I was telling my g/f about something I witnessed/heard (heard first-hand I mean) and her words were "it's scary that that person is going to be a doctor." I couldn't agree with her more.

IMO, SGU needs to do more with the interview process. Right now it seems to be some kind of formality just to say that they have one and serves no real purpose other than to confirm that the person can actually speak English or something.

[aliendroid]

Truer words have never been spoken (in my opinion) on this forum. Now we're not all going to get along but I really wonder about some people. In fact, I wonder almost every day and the thought "YOU're going to be a doctor??!!" crosses my mind way too often.

Sadly, I'm not just talking about people with no "social skills" but some downright weird and creepy individuals who seem to lack any kind of morals and normal thought processes whatsoever.

Not two days ago I was telling my g/f about something I witnessed/heard (heard first-hand I mean) and her words were "it's scary that that person is going to be a doctor." I couldn't agree with her more.

IMO, SGU needs to do more with the interview process. Right now it seems to be some kind of formality just to say that they have one and serves no real purpose other than to confirm that the person can actually speak English or something.


Although I agree with you on the "creepy" individuals I think I would strongely disagree with you and jaywalk in some social skills.

If you mean by shy or nervous then I disagree. The individuals that should not be in medicine are the lying, fraudulent, sweet talking, charming individuals that can drop an interviewer's panties with their social skills. I know a guy that has scammed and stollen from every employment he had ever worked or, who is in medical school because he's a smooth talker.

Now I also no a really humble, soft-spoken, shy individual that practices family medicine who is one of the most trustworthy individuals I know.

[jaywalk81]

no i am not talking about the shy and introverted type of person and i dont think others meant that too.
being shy and stuff, thats fine! i have no problems with that at all. heck i am shy at times.

the people i am talking about are just "weird" which is the best word i can think of to describe them. they just cant interact with others at the social level and just seems kinda odd. and believe me, its not just one or a few of us that think so, its the whole freaking class! now that gotta say something!

[jaywalk81]

i just feel that the basic sciences courses can weed out the academically challenged students. but i feel there needs to be a system of some sort to weed out the ones that just dont have what it takes socially and mentally to be a physician. and that should have came at the level of the interview process, but obviously i am very very wrong.

it doesnt mean if one is smart and can handle the med school classes, it automatically means he/she can be a physician. even as a radiologist, pathologist or any that doesnt really see too many patients, one still need to the proper and right social skills to interact with your fellow colleagues and such.

[RussianJoo]

are you talking about the guy with the indiana jones hat?

maybe those weird people will be come pathologists and work in the morgue.

[JforJimmy]

I agree with you Jay, but I must say I have a different viewpoint. Perhaps those people of which you refer to do not have the mental and social skills necessary now, but they may learn it in the future on their way to becoming physicians. Some deserve the benefit of the doubt more than others, but... isn't that what caribbean schools are about? They're there to give us a second chance right- those of us who fooled around too much and weren't "mentally and socially" ready in our undergrad. Well, now we're ready and we have a second chance. Though incompetent and rude people annoy me too, I guess it would be against principle to deny them their 2nd oppotunities, not to mention extremely hard. I mean... rude people aren't rude during interviews too are they? I'm just saying I totally agree with you, but I'm grateful for these oppotunities that SGU has given me, and I can't say that it would be right to close doors on people who have the potential to become doctors, even if they seem a bit screwy in the head right now.

[astronugget]

I have to say that I know more than a few socially inept people at US med schools... it's not limited to SGU.

[aliendroid]

I see what you guys are talking about now. I know a radiologist that was trying to take over a partnership by firing all the other partners one by one and hiring on new guys under salary only. He would have been pulling in millions per year from other people's work except he got canned and the other radiologists that were kicked out of the partnership came back and started it up again. lol

[jaywalk81]

while it is good and grateful that sgu gives people 2nd chances in becoming a physician, there still gotta be a cut off mark somewhere!

if sgu wants to maintain its reputation, then by accepting more and more of people that doesnt have what it takes academically, socially, or whatever else will not help to booster its image. there gotta be a point when enough is enough. i know there is a system in place for academic wise situations where sgu will and have done to a few students by expelling them because of a poor performance academically. which by all means i agree with sgu's actions. i just feel that there should be some sort of way to weed out the socially and mentally challenged people. my opinion...

[jaywalk81]

and russianjoo...

no comment....haha

[rokshana]

i just feel that the basic sciences courses can weed out the academically challenged students. but i feel there needs to be a system of some sort to weed out the ones that just dont have what it takes socially and mentally to be a physician. and that should have came at the level of the interview process, but obviously i am very very wrong.

it doesnt mean if one is smart and can handle the med school classes, it automatically means he/she can be a physician. even as a radiologist, pathologist or any that doesnt really see too many patients, one still need to the proper and right social skills to interact with your fellow colleagues and such.

there is...its called the clinical years- social interaction becomes very important at all levels-patients, staff, residents, attendings, etc- if you're not socially adept it becomes difficult to get a good (sometimes even passing) grade.

[jaywalk81]

there is...its called the clinical years- social interaction becomes very important at all levels-patients, staff, residents, attendings, etc- if you're not socially adept it becomes difficult to get a good (sometimes even passing) grade.
good to know that!

[aliendroid]

while it is good and grateful that sgu gives people 2nd chances in becoming a physician, there still gotta be a cut off mark somewhere!

if sgu wants to maintain its reputation, then by accepting more and more of people that doesnt have what it takes academically, socially, or whatever else will not help to booster its image. there gotta be a point when enough is enough. i know there is a system in place for academic wise situations where sgu will and have done to a few students by expelling them because of a poor performance academically. which by all means i agree with sgu's actions. i just feel that there should be some sort of way to weed out the socially and mentally challenged people. my opinion...

I agree 100% that there are some people who should not be in medicine for either cognitive or psychological reasons. I think that the medical field should be more critical of doctors and investigate their ethics more often. I don't think that entrance into medical school will ever be able to be the filter points because the people that act strange and seem weird often are not the real problem, it's the guy who seems like god's gift to mankind who seems to want to help everyone, yet is willing to stab someone in the back for advancement or willing to recommend an unnecessary operation to make more money, who is the real personality problem in medicine. Often times a guy like this will make you think he is god's gift to medicine (women also). I'm much less worried about someone that has a nervous twitch or who dresses up in all black, or who has trouble maintaining eye contact. The best way to let people into medical school is off 100% merit based on scores and achievments and only reject based on subjective reasoning if the applicant is psychotic or psychologically unable to become a doctor. I think they should do drug testing during interviews and also randomly in medical school. I also think that they should only use college level grades from the prereqs and the last two years because the point of college is to improve and many people do after doing poorely at first. This way you are always able to shape up. This is what freedom is all about. The ability to work hard and get somewhere for it. yet I worked my butt off and put in more hours then most people I know and I still manage to get rejected everywhere thanks to my transcript from 5+ years ago that has several F's and W's. I've turned around and even learned from this experience. I know what it's like to screw up but I also know how to do well and put a lot of work into things. If I knew back before I turned things around and started premed what I know now, I would not have even bothered to go for medical school if schools like SGU didn't exist and I don't know anyone that would even try if they knew they couldn't make it no matter how well they did in the future. I think that medical schools should worry less about forcing students to pass and more about keeping education standards high. If people fail out, then that's life. I like the way SGU works and I think they will put out some outstanding doctors in practice and the fact that even if entrance standards are not as high, people still have to pass classes and take the boards and there are students that fail the boards at harvard and I would rather have a doctor that did well on the boards the first time from SGU then a student that flunked the boards the first time from Harvard. I like SGU and the opportunities it provides and if I am lucky enough to get into my in state school and I someday am working beside an SGU student in residency or clinicals, I will respect them and treat them like an equal. This goes for all carib schools. I think you get much worse personalities at the top ten medical schools in the USA then at the carib schools.

[rokshana]

I agree 100% that there are some people who should not be in medicine for either cognitive or psychological reasons. I think that the medical field should be more critical of doctors and investigate their ethics more often. I don't think that entrance into medical school will ever be able to be the filter points because the people that act strange and seem weird often are not the real problem, it's the guy who seems like god's gift to mankind who seems to want to help everyone, yet is willing to stab someone in the back for advancement or willing to recommend an unnecessary operation to make more money, who is the real personality problem in medicine. Often times a guy like this will make you think he is god's gift to medicine (women also). I'm much less worried about someone that has a nervous twitch or who dresses up in all black, or who has trouble maintaining eye contact. The best way to let people into medical school is off 100% merit based on scores and achievments and only reject based on subjective reasoning if the applicant is psychotic or psychologically unable to become a doctor. I think they should do drug testing during interviews and also randomly in medical school. I also think that they should only use college level grades from the prereqs and the last two years because the point of college is to improve and many people do after doing poorely at first. This way you are always able to shape up. This is what freedom is all about. The ability to work hard and get somewhere for it. yet I worked my butt off and put in more hours then most people I know and I still manage to get rejected everywhere thanks to my transcript from 5+ years ago that has several F's and W's. I've turned around and even learned from this experience. I know what it's like to screw up but I also know how to do well and put a lot of work into things. If I knew back before I turned things around and started premed what I know now, I would not have even bothered to go for medical school if schools like SGU didn't exist and I don't know anyone that would even try if they knew they couldn't make it no matter how well they did in the future. I think that medical schools should worry less about forcing students to pass and more about keeping education standards high. If people fail out, then that's life. I like the way SGU works and I think they will put out some outstanding doctors in practice and the fact that even if entrance standards are not as high, people still have to pass classes and take the boards and there are students that fail the boards at harvard and I would rather have a doctor that did well on the boards the first time from SGU then a student that flunked the boards the first time from Harvard. I like SGU and the opportunities it provides and if I am lucky enough to get into my in state school and I someday am working beside an SGU student in residency or clinicals, I will respect them and treat them like an equal. This goes for all carib schools. I think you get much worse personalities at the top ten medical schools in the USA then at the carib schools.

well that would certainly help solve the large class size problem!

[Dr.Speed]

I don't think the large class sizes will ruin SGU's rep... those who are qualified academically will move on... those who are not will be booted...

Offering more people the oppurtunity to become a doctor, i think, is a good thing.

I don't think SGU is setting itself up for graduating incompetant doctors.

[jaywalk81]

qualifying the academic part is only 1 aspect of becoming a physician. i know ppl that can memorize things very easily and can spit out info like a human encyclopedia, but they cant integrate the info AND they cant "act" properly around a patient or another person (no/poor/improper social skills)

thus i think it takes alot more in being a doctor than just knowing the basi sciences.

[Dr.Speed]

qualifying the academic part is only 1 aspect of becoming a physician. i know ppl that can memorize things very easily and can spit out info like a human encyclopedia, but they cant integrate the info AND they cant "act" properly around a patient or another person (no/poor/improper social skills)

thus i think it takes alot more in being a doctor than just knowing the basi sciences.

It's just my opinion that of those who are academically adept the majority are able to "integrate" and those who have bad social skills/lack the integrating ability will enter into research or something that require less contact with people. And these who cannot "integrate" only make up a very small minority IMO.