Get a DO degree in 3 MORE years!

[dr_dre]

http://iris.nyit.edu/nycom/future/fut_emigre.htm

[stephew]

"The APEP program is a three year accelerated program leading to the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. The APEP program is open to residents of US with foreign, fully qualified medical degrees equivalent to a Doctor of Medicine Degree from an accredited educational institution in the United States.
"

I.e.: you have your IMG MD...now spend three more years learning the same stuff for a DO. Cons: 3 more years and more cash. Pros? None whatsoever! You're still not a US MD! You still are viewed the same way by pds! And you look like a shmuck for repeating your coursework (yes yes, extra musculoskeletal stuff).

DO is a perfectly viable way to go but this really sinks philosophical credibility.
SW

[october]

"The APEP program is a three year accelerated program leading to the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. The APEP program is open to residents of US with foreign, fully qualified medical degrees equivalent to a Doctor of Medicine Degree from an accredited educational institution in the United States.
"

I.e.: you have your IMG MD...now spend three more years learning the same stuff for a DO. Cons: 3 more years and more cash. Pros? None whatsoever! You're still not a US MD! You still are viewed the same way by pds! And you look like a shmuck for repeating your coursework (yes yes, extra musculoskeletal stuff).

DO is a perfectly viable way to go but this really sinks philosophical credibility.
SW

A response after my own heart.

Superb
excelente
muy bueno

[october]

FYI; not too long ago osteopathic medicine faced a very similar smear campaign as now does international medical study. Below is a snippet and reference.



http://www.mghp.com/about/history.shtml


Staffing the hospital with nurses was a challenge, as a decree was issued that “any nurses working at the Osteopathic hospital were immediately barred from working at Mercy and Hackley hospitals.” The founding physicians also attempted to secure a “Quiet Hospital Zone” sign, but city officials refused to provide one, as the institution was not recognized as a hospital.

It was this anti-Osteopathic sentiment that was the impetus for the creation of the hospital – the physicians found resistance from Muskegon’s established hospitals in regard to practice privileges. The new hospital provided a place for them to treat patients in an Osteopathic environment.

[Nebakanezer]

Well, at least its better than those "Foreign MD-Acclerated RN" programs. Just what I want to do, work my --- off to get my MD and then come to america and go to two more years of school to become an RN! YES! Dream come true, baby!

[october]

http://history.aoa-net.org/Recognition/reccalif.htm




Although the osteopathic profession emerged strong in California, D.O.s faced a setback as the California Medical Practice Act passed in 1907. In 1919, the composite board for this act refused to examine D.O.s and established a separate board of examiners. The push by both the California Medical (CMA) and California Osteopathic (COA) associations was towards a merger. They wanted to convert the College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons (COPS) into an allopathic medicine college. In May of 1961, the associations signed a contract, and COPS became the California College of Medicine.

The new school gave M.D. degrees to its faculty and to the D.O.s who agreed to the conversion. D.O.s were able to obtain an M.D. degree by attending 12 Saturday classes and paying $65. A year later, Proposition 22 passed—abolishing the osteopathic licensing board. About 85% of practicing D.O.s traded in their D.O.s degrees for M.D. degrees. However, these M.D. degrees were not recognized outside the state.

What appeared to be a defeat for the profession, turned into a catalyst for obtaining full licensure in all 50 states. Because the COPS conversion took place with few curriculum changes and no additional training for D.O.s, osteopathic medicine became recognized as equal to allopathic. By 1973, all 50 states and the District of Columbia granted D.O.s full practice rights.

Simultaneously, the AOA and osteopathic physicians in California worked to overturn Proposition 22, and in 1974, the California Supreme Court declared the policy as unconstitutional. A new osetopathic board was established, and in 1977, the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific was opened.











--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[october]

Well, at least its better than those "Foreign MD-Acclerated RN" programs. Just what I want to do, work my ***** off to get my MD and then come to america and go to two more years of school to become an RN! YES! Dream come true, baby!

If you earn the degree, pass the boards, and still cannot get a residency THEN I will agree with you 100%

[october]

Well, at least its better than those "Foreign MD-Acclerated RN" programs. Just what I want to do, work my ***** off to get my MD and then come to america and go to two more years of school to become an RN! YES! Dream come true, baby!


and by the way, if after graduating, passing boards, I had been unable to get a PGY position in the US, I would have gone to work in one of the many countries under the umbrella of "La Madre Patria" Spain. (any Spanish speaking country and there are many)

If the country I was born in said no, I would go somewhere else to do what I chose .

[Nebakanezer]

Well, at least its better than those "Foreign MD-Acclerated RN" programs. Just what I want to do, work my --- off to get my MD and then come to america and go to two more years of school to become an RN! YES! Dream come true, baby!

Edit: Please note the SARCASM!

[ques]

the person from SGU (Stephew I think) said it best.

October? whoever you are, why would you ever consider a program like that?

3 more years, 3 more years of your pockets becoming even more shallow, and at the end of 3 years you haven't even made yourself more marketable to program directors.......in fact, they'd question your motivation for going the DO route.... if you're an MD have some faith. If you work hard, you'll get a US residency. (if that's what you want). But going to some ** accelerated DO program after you already have your MD is a total scam, hoax, and grab strictly to increase their own profit margins.

I'm all for osteopathy and without a doubt will be applying to a few schools, but I surely would never consider going to one, if I already had an MD.

Residency directors (contrary to what some may think) in a sense look at foreign grads in two ways.....some are ignorant and always will be, and others see how resilient those students were in achieving their goals.

as for this accelerated DO NYCOM program......

caveat empor! ......because it's not a program designed for the students, it's designed for the administration of the school.[/b]

[DODUDE]

I am really fed up with this childish argument about DO’s and MD’s

Here are few thoughts:

1. I dare anyone who is applying to med. School (anywhere), or who is in med school (Carib, Eastern Europe, or any other FOR PROFIT med school) where you wear your sandals to lecture), I dare all of those to have been ADMITTED to a DO program in the US, yet they decided to pursue an MD degree elsewhere!!!!!
2. There are many people on this forum who really need to get a REALITY check! Those who claim, that their medical diploma which was conferred upon them by money-hungry businessmen. Funny!!!!
3. No matter what your current status is, the fact is you are IMG, and being an IMG you’re a third class citizen (sorry doctor).
4. In the US, it does not really matter if you are a DO or an MD (regardless of the absurd history lesson from someone on this forum about DO’s). Both DO’s and MD’s are treated equally, but YOU, as an IMG, come second (sorry again, THIRD).
5. Get a life, and do not let you residency post fool you, DO’s did receive a far better education than you did, and for the most part, were more qualified than you are. Why? They got accepted to a REAL US medical school, and not some for-profit, resort-destination, medical school housed in bungalows.
6. I do not give a flaking dime how much you scored on the board, but the fact remain, you are NOT BETTER THAN DO’s. GET A REALITY CHECK.
7. Please stop this non-sense discussion (bitter one) about DO’s and MD’s. This post was merely posted as an FYI only, and for the benefit of many people on this forum, and not for you to go out attacking DO’s. And who are you to attack an accredited DO school? Oh, they are not like the schools you go to, which say:

OUR SCHOOL IS PROUDLY ACCRIDETD:
“XXX School of Medicine was chartered by the Government of XXX and approved by the Ministry of Education, and is similarly approved and recognized in XXX. The XXX is listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools published by the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva, Switzerland”. This is all what they all say. Money-hungry, scam, for profit school.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME OR YOURSELF???????WAKE UP!


Please excuse any linguistic errors on this post, as I was soooooo and fed up with all theses childish arguments, and indication of how shallow some of these posts are.

[october]

"I am really fed up with this childish argument about DO’s and MD’s

Here are few thoughts:

1. I dare anyone who is applying to med. School (anywhere), or who is in med school (Carib, Eastern Europe, or any other FOR PROFIT med school) where you wear your sandals to lecture), I dare all of those to have been ADMITTED to a DO program in the US, yet they decided to pursue an MD degree elsewhere!!!!!



Are you saying schools in the United States don't make money? 'Non profit" entity for tax purposes is one thing but reality another.

Unfortunately there are those who gain self assurance or pleasure from
downplaying the training of others. DO's were berated and smeared by US MD's for decades until through legal and legislative avenues they gained equality.
Elitism is still present. I have seen Ivy League grads berate non Ivy League (both US grads) It amazes me in that you would think someone educated and accomplished would not have the need to do this, whoever you are, DO, AMG, IMG etc etc.

2. There are many people on this forum who really need to get a REALITY check! Those who claim, that their medical diploma which was conferred upon them by money-hungry businessmen. Funny!!!!


Knowledge, accomplishment, creativity, learning in NOT geography dependent. Those money-hungry businessmen broke the bubble of elitist US medical education and have shown that there is no magic in studying in the Unoited States except political correctness.



3. No matter what your current status is, the fact is you are IMG, and being an IMG you’re a third class citizen (sorry doctor).
===============================================

after the decades of bashing DO's endured, and continue to endure by US allopathic medicine, berating/smear campaigns you would think DO's would not be interested in becoming their accusers. "if only the hunter was hunted" Guess profesional schools cannot teach humanity or humility.


4. In the US, it does not really matter if you are a DO or an MD (regardless of the absurd history lesson from someone on this forum about DO’s). Both DO’s and MD’s are treated equally, but YOU, as an IMG, come second (sorry again, THIRD).

===============================================
Though very unfair, there still exists DO mistreatment in the US not disimilar to IMG treatment.

That "absurd history lesson" is extremely relevant to every DO to this very day as it illustrates the hatred from which DO's had to emerge from. That absurd history is the VERY REASON DO's are allowed to exist, and be licensed to this very day.

==============================================



5. Get a life, and do not let you residency post fool you, DO’s did receive a far better education than you did, and for the most part, were more qualified than you are. Why? They got accepted to a REAL US medical school, and not some for-profit, resort-destination, medical school housed in bungalows.

==============================================

Where is your scientific evidence for your conclusion? Please provide links to studies to corroborate this.
===========================================

6. I do not give a flaking dime how much you scored on the board, but the fact remain, you are NOT BETTER THAN DO’s. GET A REALITY CHECK.


Personally no one is better than someone else. Rather than attack your accusers using the same tactice they use, why not argue the issue in a objective logical manner.

============================================

7. Please stop this non-sense discussion (bitter one) about DO’s and MD’s. This post was merely posted as an FYI only, and for the benefit of many people on this forum, and not for you to go out attacking DO’s. And who are you to attack an accredited DO school? Oh, they are not like the schools you go to, which say:

OUR SCHOOL IS PROUDLY ACCRIDETD:
“XXX School of Medicine was chartered by the Government of XXX and approved by the Ministry of Education, and is similarly approved and recognized in XXX. The XXX is listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools published by the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva, Switzerland”. This is all what they all say. Money-hungry, scam, for profit school.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME OR YOURSELF???????WAKE UP!


Please excuse any linguistic errors on this post, as I was soooooo and fed up with all theses childish arguments, and indication of how shallow some of these posts are."

==============================================

You yourself have adopted the same type of tactics as those you argue against!

Get rid of the chip on your shoulder.

[DODUDE]

-It’s very ABSURD to try to compare foreign med school (specifically those in the Carib). Do you honestly believe (or would like to believe) the claims made by their founders that they wanted to help those who were “less” fortunate and did not make it to US medical schools, and also to contribute to the US health care system by “producing” compassionate doctors ??????BULL……
-Look back at the history of all the so-called better carib school and see how they started out, and now after they have students applying to them in the thousands, they are improving their admissions “standards”, and starting to conduct lectures inside “concrete” bungalows. Seems like all the startup loans have now been paid.
-Now, why in the heck would I be over $150K in debt just for the sake of going to such schools-do not sell me this junk about “fulfilling my CHILDHOOD dream” of becoming a doc!!!!!!
-The fact of the matter that, if you really believe in such a dream, then you should study hard and crack the MCAT and get accepted to a US school. Stats. Indicate that out of every 3 applicants, 1 gets accepted, so the odds are actually better than going to some resort destination…..get killed , raped, or mugged, poor preparation, and thus you will have a $150K piece of paper worth NOTHING, etc.. etc….etc

AND THE FACT REMAINs, YOU ARE AN IMG…no matter what. It’s a label which will follow you till the day you die. Just because of a few IMG’s who made it to good positions in this country, this does not mean that you will. You see, not all IMG’s are equal. Those who have studied at their home countries, not only they are favored in the US, but also “usually” better prepared. why?? In spite of the fact that our medical education in the US is the BEST in the world, yet our basic system of education is probably worst than most 3rd. world countries’. And when it comes time to go to college and med school in the US, it’s those who really worked hard on their own (or the other ones where dad is reach enough to send them to private schools) who really make it to med school, while others, who just ..Well……did not work as hard, end up going to the island. This may sound harsh, and propbablydoes not apply to everyone, but it obviously applies to the MAJORITY.

[october]

-It’s very ABSURD to try to compare foreign med school (specifically those in the Carib). Do you honestly believe (or would like to believe) the claims made by their founders that they wanted to help those who were “less” fortunate and did not make it to US medical schools, and also to contribute to the US health care system by “producing” compassionate doctors ??????BULL……
-Look back at the history of all the so-called better carib school and see how they started out, and now after they have students applying to them in the thousands, they are improving their admissions “standards”, and starting to conduct lectures inside “concrete” bungalows. Seems like all the startup loans have now been paid.
-Now, why in the heck would I be over $150K in debt just for the sake of going to such schools-do not sell me this junk about “fulfilling my CHILDHOOD dream” of becoming a doc!!!!!!
-The fact of the matter that, if you really believe in such a dream, then you should study hard and crack the MCAT and get accepted to a US school. Stats. Indicate that out of every 3 applicants, 1 gets accepted, so the odds are actually better than going to some resort destination…..get killed , raped, or mugged, poor preparation, and thus you will have a $150K piece of paper worth NOTHING, etc.. etc….etc

AND THE FACT REMAINs, YOU ARE AN IMG…no matter what. It’s a label which will follow you till the day you die. Just because of a few IMG’s who made it to good positions in this country, this does not mean that you will. You see, not all IMG’s are equal. Those who have studied at their home countries, not only they are favored in the US, but also “usually” better prepared. why?? In spite of the fact that our medical education in the US is the BEST in the world, yet our basic system of education is probably worst than most 3rd. world countries’. And when it comes time to go to college and med school in the US, it’s those who really worked hard on their own (or the other ones where dad is reach enough to send them to private schools) who really make it to med school, while others, who just ..Well……did not work as hard, end up going to the island. This may sound harsh, and propbablydoes not apply to everyone, but it obviously applies to the MAJORITY.



I personally have never bashed DO's. Out of curiousity why would you, clearly a superior student (you told us so with your kind words) waste your God blessed time on this forum frequented by no good lousy IMG's wthout a future. Do you think there is some magic in studying in the US?

Surely there must be some DO academia that more urgently merits your time.

You might want to read Derek Sampsons post on offshore study and filters. Do a search for him either on this url or studentdoctor.net

Rather than wearing out the tires of your pulpit berating others try to convert your anger and arrogance into positive energy that can be used to study and/or help the poor.

ambition bites the nails of success

[ques]

First my apologies to october...I mistakenly thought you were supporting the 3 year DO Acclerated program for US IMGs (MDs). DODUDE I was not insulting NYCOM, but saying what a scam and hoax that is. You can't be serious in being so naive as to think that it is not for profit, nor is any other US medical education not for profit. Wake up, and when you do roll off your pulpit you putz.

Where do you get off blasting "foreign medical schools" and "caribbean medical schools?" your posts were so eloquently stated you must be the greatest physicain since Andrew Taylor Still.
How about this. Why don't you relax, learn how to spell caribbean (you probably can't and that's why you just put "carib") and do some research on those schools, or better yet go talk with some of those physicians now practicing.....you are practicing now aren't you? Only a physician on the floors would make such damaging and disparaging remarks about other physicians. If that's the case then you're comparing a few to many, and clearly are just ignorant. But more likely you're just a student, intern or first year resident who doesn't know any better, and just wanted to rip foreign schools, and foreign grads (some of which are no doubt more talented then their US educated counterparts), simply because you graduated from the US, and alas, then you are still ignorant.

As for your comments on the boards; USMLE or COMLEX, well yes it is very objective, but whoever said that makes a good physician? The US government did. So if you want to practice here, then you better pass it like all other aspiring US physicians because without it you can not practice medicine. And if you don't pass it then take your DO and do what you can................

...but I assure you with a DO you will not practice in another country. Maybe the UK, but good luck pushing the paperwork through there and waiting for a spot to open up, if they decide to take a DO, and again if they do take DOs.

I have nothing against DOs. Personally I have worked with many, and as a "non-traditional premed" or whatever label you want to give me, I look forward to applying to some of those schools, but will never listen to any current students, residents, or attendings at those schools who are as moronic as you.

Either way, with your attitude you're a disgrace to the profession, and if you were a colleague of mine, I would hope (and actually try and make sure) you never saw a single patient.

Why don't you spend some time educating yourself outside the realm of your textbooks, and educate yourself culturally and you'll understand that diversity and a non-isolationist view are part of praciticing the art of medicine.

So stick to the science if you must, (cause you'll need it for the boards, especially in your case). And if you remain so ignorant and biased against what you call "foreign schools" then you must be biased against the countries where those graduates were educated (and it sounds like you are). Caribbean, European, Indian, Mexican, Canadian, British -- the entire globe. So why don't you give up on medicine in the US? (or I guess medicine in general then for you), last time I checked everyone here came from somewhere else way back when.

[jim]

yes, DODUDE seems a little irate. maybe he applied to my program which stopped taking DOs a couple years ago due to poor board scores. and as for comments by october, so true. i have US and colombian citizenship and would gladly work as an MD somewhere else then an RN here. when you actually work as an MD, you kind of wonder why anyone would want to be an RN. they do all the dirty work, we get all the glory...and money. as for NYCOM, they sent me stuff a few years ago about changing to DO. if i wanted to be a DO, i would have gone that route to begin with.

[Picard]

DODude,
First of all, the original post in this thread was NOT to bash DO's. It merely comment on the absurdness of obtaining two equivalent medical degrees. Just like if you were to go to, say, Germany, and are asked to repeat a 3-year MD program to practice there.

Your post shows you are very ignorant about foreign medical educations. Established Caribbean schools are every bit as equals when it comes to the substance of education. And schools like SGU has much better physical infrastructures than both DO schools in California. COMP started out holding classes between K-mart and JC Penny. Have you visited St. Georg'es campus? I've been to all three -- Touro, Western, and SGU. Guess what, SGU has the best physical infrastructure. And, established US based caribbean schools prepare it's students much better for practice in the US cmpared with the rest of IMG's. This is why the USMLE scores of these schools are comparable to US schools both by mean score and pass rate, and far surpass overall IMG pass rates. And their residency lists are very similar to Touro's and Westerns.... and 99+% of graduates from established caribbean schools go on to residency training and become licensed physicians. Heck, Ross puts more students into residency programs than any other school in the US. And, schools like SGU have virtually the same average undergrad GPA/MCAT scores compared with DO/USMD schools. Plenty of my classmates have "stats" above US school averages, or possess terminal graduate degrees prior to coming to medical school.

And, I don't know what year of medical school you are in. But you should know that in the clinical years, caribbean students train alongside US students in US hospitals. In fact, if you are either a Touro or Western medical student, you will be rotating with SGU/Ross/AUC students in your third and fourth year in the same hospitals. And, many, many of your teaching residents, and attendings will be IMG's from these schools. Who knows, I may even be your teaching attending when you start your clinical rotations. So what does that say about your education?

The fact is, DO's struggled for a long time to achieve equality with MD's. Too bad that young DO's nowadays are not up on the history, or are so quick to forget. Older DO's will tell you the struggles they faced, and the few older ones I've the privileges to know and work with are some of the most humble and competent physicians I've met. You don't see them going around bashing IMG's -- they've been through the same struggle less than a generation ago. And to date, an US DO degree is still virtually unlicencible outside of the US, where as IMG's from carib schools are licensed across the world.

No one is bashing DO's here. I work with many, and find them to be outstanding physicians. Perhaps you are just too young in your chosen profession and still have lots of growing to do. Hope you will mature into a fine physician when you get there.

See you when you reach your clinicals... you will meet plenty of caribbean students as your classmates on wards/rotations, and plenty of teaching residents/attendings who are IMG's from these schools you bash. Ummm, they will be teaching you and your DO classmates how to become doctors...

P

[medic2md]

The fact is, DO's struggled for a long time to achieve equality with MD's. Too bad that young DO's nowadays are not up on the history, or are so quick to forget. Older DO's will tell you the struggles they faced, and the few older ones I've the privileges to know and work with are some of the most humble and competent physicians I've met. You don't see them going around bashing IMG's -- they've been through the same struggle less than a generation ago.
P

My EMS medical director is a DO. Without a doubt, he is the finest, most compentant, and respected physician our ER has. He's not high and mighty as most of the other ER MD's are and he loves to teach us lowly paramedics instead of just ordering us to do things, which he has every right to do. He has friends who went through (AUC, SGU, and Ross). He is the one who encouraged me while I was making up my mind on which one of the big 3 schools to choose from and in no way dicouraged me from that decision. He is also the one writing me a LOR. He is one of those D.O.'s who hasn't forgotten his roots.

[DODUDE]

1. I did not say that some med schools in the US are not for profit. This is very true for all the private ones (that’s why they private).
2. I did not mean to insult anyone, and my apology to anyone who might have felt insulted by my remarks, my lashing is pretty much geared toward those who run those med schools, and whose main goal is making a lot f money (more than the quality of education they offer), yet they go out there screaming and claiming that their goal is to fulfill the dreams of those who wants to be doctors and to contribute to our healthcare system. Well, they may be helping some students fulfill their dreams of becoming docs, but at very hefty price, needless to say that the whole burden fall on those students to get licensed, since the quality of education that these school offer is steeply low (compared to the money that they charge).
3. Well, if someone can make it as a DO here in the US, then why in the heck do they want to go anywhere else?
4. Contrary to what you may think, I have a lot of respect for those students who go through the pain of attending foreign medical schools, but my personal opinion is that Carib med. Schools (all of them) are a very bad and poor choice (please do not get upset, this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it).
5. I am sure that there are many students here who probably have better MCAT/GPA than those who attend US schools.
6. The deciding factor here is achieving the ultimate goal of becoming a licensed physician here in the US, and US med school (MD’s & DO’s) will prepare you better for that. And I am glad that we agree on this.

[DODUDE]

1.I did not say that some med schools in the US are not for profit. This is very true for all the private ones (that’s why they private).
2.I did not mean to insult anyone, and my apology to anyone who might have felt insulted by my remarks, my lashing is pretty much geared toward those who run those med schools, and whose main goal is making a lot f money (more than the quality of education they offer), yet they go out there screaming and claiming that their goal is to fulfill the dreams of those who wants to be doctors and to contribute to our healthcare system. Well, they may be helping some students fulfill their dreams of becoming docs, but at very hefty price, needless to say that the whole burden fall on those students to get licensed, since the quality of education that these school offer is steeply low (compared to the money that they charge).
3.Well, if someone can make it as a DO here in the US, then why in the heck do they want to go anywhere else?
4.Contrary to what you may think, I have a lot of respect for those students who go through the pain of attending foreign medical schools, but my personal opinion is that Carib med. Schools (all of them) are a very bad and poor choice (please do not get upset, this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it).
5.I am sure that there are many students here who probably have better MCAT/GPA than those who attend US schools.
6.The deciding factor here is achieving the ultimate goal of becoming a licensed physician here in the US, and US med school (MD’s & DO’s) will prepare you better for that. And I am glad that we agree on this.

[october]

1.I did not say that some med schools in the US are not for profit. This is very true for all the private ones (that’s why they private).
2.I did not mean to insult anyone, and my apology to anyone who might have felt insulted by my remarks, my lashing is pretty much geared toward those who run those med schools, and whose main goal is making a lot f money (more than the quality of education they offer), yet they go out there screaming and claiming that their goal is to fulfill the dreams of those who wants to be doctors and to contribute to our healthcare system. Well, they may be helping some students fulfill their dreams of becoming docs, but at very hefty price, needless to say that the whole burden fall on those students to get licensed, since the quality of education that these school offer is steeply low (compared to the money that they charge).

That has been argued for decades yet there are literally thousands if not more digit numbers of Caribe graduates practicing alongside their US school educated counterparts. Show me objective scientific proof that confirms graduates of Caribe schools are in some way inferior to others.

If any student goofs off they will come out knowing less and or not pass the boards. I would like you to tell me how persons studying the same material but in different geographic locations are in some way different in what they learn? Does a specific classroom design, square metre size, paint color mean learning is superior? (especially for basic sciences)

I do think it is important to do meaningful clinical rotations and work hard and put the hours in. I have spent countless hours in operating rooms in Latin America as well as time in the USA. Sure seems the procedures are quite similar as well as the instruments. Facility variation exists in Latin America as it does in the USA. Some places have more money and more technology, others less. Some facilities offer procedures and technology that others don't in both geographies. There exists successes and poor outcomes everywhere.

In actuality, procedures are not infrequently pioneered in Latin America and some of the world greatest medical talent comes from there.

Off the top of my head I will mention some whose names I recall, others I do not recall specific names.

Brazil; Ivo Pitanguy; Developed many cutting edge plastic surgical procedures. Donates much of hs time working for the poor, both in brazil and globally.

Colombia; Jose Barraquer, The Father of Refractive Surgery; developed and built many surgical instruments. Planet earth Father of anterior lamellar refractive surgery. Frozen MLK root procedure of LASIK.

Luis Ruiz; developed motorized microkeratome and holds world patents (device used by surgeons to create corneal flap) Yes, every time a US grad buy one for 60 - 75000 dolars they pay royalties to the FMG in Colombia. He is also generally acknowledged as the worlds singly most procedurally experienced refractive surgeon

Hakim valve used in neurosurgery to treat normo pressure hydrocechalus develoked by Dr Hakim, Bogota. Hakims disease refers to NPH as I beieve he co-discovered it.

Argentina; pioneering work in Cardiac surgery; dont recall names


Cuba; Dr. Chediak ; Chediak-Higashi syndrome



3.Well, if someone can make it as a DO here in the US, then why in the heck do they want to go anywhere else?
4.Contrary to what you may think, I have a lot of respect for those students who go through the pain of attending foreign medical schools, but my personal opinion is that Carib med. Schools (all of them) are a very bad and poor choice (please do not get upset, this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it).



Seems your opinion is based on ignorance and not objective data.



5.I am sure that there are many students here who probably have better MCAT/GPA than those who attend US schools.
6.The deciding factor here is achieving the ultimate goal of becoming a licensed physician here in the US, and US med school (MD’s & DO’s) will prepare you better for that. And I am glad that we agree on this.



US schools will stamp you as being politically correct and essentially guaranty entry into residency and licensure as they call the shots and appoint the umpires; period.

[Picard]

since the quality of education that these school offer is steeply low (compared to the money that they charge).
but my personal opinion is that Carib med. Schools (all of them) are a very bad and poor choice (please do not get upset, this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it).

I hope you are a bit more open minded and learn to make decisions by gathering objective data by the time you graduate from medical school. Otherwise, I feel sorry for your patients.

Since I've been to campuses of SGU, Touro, and Western, and now teach students from all three schools, let me shed some light on the subject for you.

SGU charges similar tuition compared with Touro and Western. SGU has the best physical infrastructures of the three -- state of the art lectrue halls with internet access from every seat, anatomy lab, micro lab, library, dorms... etc... a brand new 40+ million dollar campus, more than what I can say for Touro or Western campuses. As for basic science educations -- every SGU professor holds professorship in other US or UK medical schools, teaching the same curriculums. Heck, the physiology department at U. of Vermont SOM shares the same professors as SGU's physiology department. Many of SGU basic science professors are authors of board review books in the US. Anatomy professors at SGU (all PhD anatomist who hold full professorships in US medical schools) can be found in anatomy labs on weekends, available to students to ask questions... how many Touro/Western basic science professors are available to students on weekends for informal teaching???? I even had the fortune of sitting through lectures given by Dr. Johnathan Mann and Dr. Anthony Fauci... Having taught students from all three schools, I can tell you that SGU students are just as well, if not better prepared in basic sciences than Touro or Western students.

Now, on to clinical educations. All three schools share many of the same hospitals. Students from all three schools rotate side by side, taught by the same faculty members. SGU students are required to receive all of their clinical trainings in hospitals with ACGME-approved residency programs, and go through standardized exams after each rotation. Touro and Western students are allowed to do rotations in places where there are no formal teaching faculty (ie following private docs in their offices) with no formal objective assessment of their rotations. One of the worst medical students our hospital has ever had was a Touro student who was kicked out of our department... and probably could have been criminally charged for endangering patients/impersonating a physician if we had pushed the issue...

Recent malpractice/discipline trackings of physicians show that of the three "worst" medical schools (producing more percentage of graduates who have been disciplined by medical boards or sued), two of them are US schools, the third one is a Phillipine school (a "local" medical school not catered to the US students).

So, please tell us in what way is an SGU education "inferior" than Touro or Western's (or any other US schools, MD or DO)?? Yes, there are discremeinations of IMG's out of ignorance, much like how DO's were treated less than a generation ago (or how DO's are now treated outside of the US)... but that does NOT mean the education we received are any "inferior" than our mainstream counterparts...

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion... but as a medical student, it's important that you learn to base you opinions on evidence/facts. Otherwise, I feel sorry for your patient... but I'm sure malpractice attorneys will appreciate your business.

P

[peacefuljourney]

i'm crying now. I'll guess I'll always be an inferior img. sigh. by the way, respect is earned, not conferred based on building materials of school... S-