C's on transcript = the end?

[MDorbust2006]

I'm a science major at a US university and so far my GPA is around a 3.5. During one of my earlier semesters I took all upper year science courses and I got three Cs (mainly due to receiving the OK from an advisor for an all-science semester which was crazy). The rest of my semesters I have mixed up with electives and have done about 3.8. Apart from the one course which was an organic chemistry course, the other two courses were upper year sciences that are not THE med school pre reqs (1 yr bio, 1 yr physics, 1 yr chem, etc). I have a 30 on my MCAT and a confident EC history.

Have I blown my chances at US med schools since I have received less than a B- in 3 science courses, and what are some realistic options (ex: foreign med schools)? Thank you so much!

[Ishie1013]

C's on transcripts aren't the end unless you're trying to get into UCSF or Harvard. It might be worth retaking the courses, though remember that even if your school does the replacement policy, most US med schools require you to put down ALL grades, regardless of your university's policy.

I had a 3.5 as well, which I considered low-end competitive. The 30 on the MCAT is good, and hospital experience is a plus.

Personally, I got 4 Cs, all in hard sciences (mostly chemistry). I think if I'd been a resident of a different state, my chances would have been better, but I was not able to get into a CA school (very hard to get in here), nor in NC where I have ties (though not strong, as a resident, I would have had a better shot), and I applied to some private schools, but most of those have higher averages.

With a 3.54, and a 29O/27T MCAT, solid ECs, I got into SGU which is a good school. You only have 3 Cs and a better MCAT score.

I think your competitiveness for US schools may depend largely on what state you're in. If you're a resident of Louisiana or Florida, for example, whose public schools have a lower average GPA, you're probably in good shape. If you're in NY or CA, you may have some trouble.

Your personal statement may also make a difference. If you can emphasize the areas in which you had trouble (briefly) and critically, how you have grown as a person and filled in those areas, you might have a good shot.

Only one way to know though... you definitely have a shot. If you don't end up getting in, then things like considering IMGs or DOs are options. Your scores may be iffy to good for US schools, but are excellent for IMGs or DO programs.

[MDorbust2006]

wow thank u! ur story gives me hope, i guess i just gotta keep working at it and get better grades. has anyone else received similar stats (a few C's in science classes) and gotten into med school? thanks!

[Tamim]

I had good grades all around and just recieved a D in math :cry:

I retook it and got a B though so hopefully it isin't going to affect me that much.

[jameslynton]

Just like a Pre-med advisor to let you do. They will not kill you if the rest of your work is really strong. However, be advised - you will be in competion with many people who don't have them on their transcripts. So I would write on your essay about that.

Most pre-med advisors drew the short straw when the dean passed out the job - It is actually a pretty thankless job with lots of work involved and the students are mostly suck-up gunners and jerks - So after awhile they hate premed students and goof up stuff for you if they don't like you - They don't really want the job. I don't really have much good to say about most of them. What they don't tell you is your undergrad grades are the NUMBER ONE factor in you getting in medical school.

Other people will give you hopeful advise about bad grades - I will not do that. Here are the facts about 17,500 US medical school seats - 22,000+ applicants that meet the standards (Grades higher than 3.6 or better MCAT > 30-35+ no goof ups)- The fact is about 3,500 to 4,000 somebodies who are good and meet the standards are going to get hurt in the process. You then have about 5,000 to 8,000 also rans - grades less than 3.5, MCAT below 30 etc. Spotty records. They are weeded out by the computer. Some times a few of them get lucky.

What surprises me are the rejects that meet US school standards are NOT flooding the island schools with applications. That tells me they are not that motivated to be MD's.

[jameslynton]

I had good grades all around and just recieved a D in math :cry:

I retook it and got a B though so hopefully it isin't going to affect me that much.For a repeat course to get less than an A - right there is a red flag. The transcript scanner software spots that and it counts against you. Yeap - Most US medical school admission's use software in the weed out process. Sad but true - you don't think at schools where they get 5,000 to 10,000 applications for 150 to 250 seats they are going to look at everyone's transcripts, MCAT & LOR's etc do you? No, they let the big dumb computer do it. They scan it in. Create a computer file where the computer stores the stuff. At the deadline time the computer runs a statistical analysis and spits out the top 500 to 750 canidates for review by an actual human. Humm takes several days to do it on the computer.
If you had people doing it - the process would take too many people to do it at say two-fours hours per application to read and sort and add up the stuff. Say for those 5,000 applications that would be 10,000 to 20,000 hours or 5-10 manyears of work. Well medical school don't have that money to pay 20-40 people to do that in a month or two. So our friend the computer does it for them.

Hope this helps enlighten you'll about the process.

[MYMD]

I'm a science major at a US university and so far my GPA is around a 3.5. During one of my earlier semesters I took all upper year science courses and I got three Cs (mainly due to receiving the OK from an advisor for an all-science semester which was crazy). The rest of my semesters I have mixed up with electives and have done about 3.8. Apart from the one course which was an organic chemistry course, the other two courses were upper year sciences that are not THE med school pre reqs (1 yr bio, 1 yr physics, 1 yr chem, etc). I have a 30 on my MCAT and a confident EC history.

Have I blown my chances at US med schools since I have received less than a B- in 3 science courses, and what are some realistic options (ex: foreign med schools)? Thank you so much!

I going to be real here, Yes it screws up your chance, with all the people applying who have at least a B in these courses they will still not get in most times, since there are two GPA's , overall and SCI, your sci has to be under 3.0 from what you posted. So yea I think you have almost no chance.

Now the only positive part, the MCAT was good, you would probably get in one of the Big 4 in the Caribbean. That's what I see.

:shock:

[MDorbust2006]

What surprises me are the rejects that meet US school standards are NOT flooding the island schools with applications. That tells me they are not that motivated to be MD's.


May be they're worried about getting a residency back in the states after getting an MD in the carribean because it is apparently a tricky transition and that they'd rather go for a masters and try again? i know several people who are doing this and who are just as determined to get their MD as third year undergrad students are. im sure we can't label all these candidates as a case of lack of motivation.

as for the question about my science GPA, i've stuck to mostly science electives so my science GPA is pretty much my overall gpa (a bit lower since I took a few arts courses that 'fluffed up' my gpa :P)

is there really a software machine? even if there is one, does it analyze marks to the extent that you have described? like if you go to mdapplicants.com and scan a few of the applications you do get cases where they had unbelievably low GPAs and marginal MCAT scores and yet something in their application got them into not only a med school but a great one at that. i think a software would eradicate the chances of this, and also for things like recruiting members of under-represented minorities with marks a bit below the radar. tho, i have heard of stories where by hand, applications with 3.7+ will go to the pre-elim pile and applications with 3.69 will go to the rejection pile. but once again, they must make allowances somewhere although I know one can't rely on getting these allowances.

[MDorbust2006]

Say for those 5,000 applications that would be 10,000 to 20,000 hours or 5-10 manyears of work. Well medical school don't have that money to pay 20-40 people to do that in a month or two. So our friend the computer does it for them.


your calculations are right if they spend 2 hours per application. however im guessing this is waayy too much since most undergrad universities, even the really small schools, spend an average of 15 minutes per application. for med schools, it's probably less since if something really doesn't grab them within that time, it probably isnt a strong applicant. if it is 15 minutes, thats 1,250 hours, or 625 per month over two months so 156ish a week, thats full time work for six employees comfortably. that is feasible. add a computer to do the basic basic cut offs and most of it is hand-work and people considering factors that are not quantitative.

however this is IFF they spend 15 min per app and i am not sure how much time they do actually spend, if they are going to check everything from gpa trends to retakes to failed classes and their explanations to electives taken (ex: rocks for jocks prob isnt the hottest challenging course to have on ur transcript) then it may take more than 15 minutes. i wonder if anyone on these forums has direct experience on being on a med admissions committee..

anyways point is, i'm hoping they rely less on computers than you mentioned since numbers, while very reliable, aren't completely exemplary of an applicant's abilities and potential.

ps forum-er with the B retake in math, uh that is a C (when you average the two grades, which is what they'll most likely do) so sadly we're in the same boat. only ya retakes under A-s don't look too great :(.

[Ishie1013]

Basically, there's only one way to find out: apply. Some schools I was looking into had lower average GPAs (3.3-3.4) but may be specific to state. I believe LSU and FSU are two of them, which is great if you're a resident of that state.

I interned in the med school morgue at UCD for 4-5 years and had an opportunity to talk to some of the med students. Even though the school sent me an emailed rejection without a secondary, some of the students, though having high averages and high MCATs, had gotten Cs, some had gotten a high GPA with a 29 on the MCAT, etc. Most had higher stats than I ended up with, but that's a California school, thus statistically (along with New York) higher numbers of qualified applicants for small number of spots... and we haven't built a new med school since ... some time ago.

I also know a doctor (graduated from SGU, residency in CA, now practicing in CA) who graduated with highest honors from UCB and didn't get in anywhere in the states.

Like I said, unless you're in one of the most competitive states (and perhaps even then), your grades are iffy but definitely have potential. If you were asking with a 3.1-3.2 and a 26-27 on the MCAT my answer would be different, though there are med students that have gotten into US schools with similar stats (though generally extenuating circumstances).

Different schools use different screening methods. There may be a broad computerized sweep done at some schools, but not all. I'm sure there is for prereqs and potentially for GPA at most, but I don't think they'd necessarily cut it high to begin with.

Go for it. If you don't make it, there are tons of other options that will have you as an M.D.

[jameslynton]

May be they're worried about getting a residency back in the states after getting an MD in the carribean
Because it is apparently a tricky transition - But most do it!


they'd rather go for a masters and try again? i know several people who are doing this and who are just as determined to get their MD as third year undergrad students are. im sure we can't label all these candidates as a case of lack of motivation.

I did that out of 40 qualified at my school - one - yea one got in medical school - For the most part medical schools - don't care about you grad GPA average - your research which they consider for the most part meaningless
I coauthored eight papers in grad school - do you know how much that counts for a PhD program or MD program in a US school if you undergrad sucks - zero - sorry I am a bit bitter here. But I saw 39 people crushed and not get in medical or vet school.

....is there really a software machine? even if there is one, does it analyze marks to the extent that you have described? Yes - I have worked on some of these software programs They are not machines - they are very detailed. You would not believe the size of some of them. Pretty much they use many factors and weights to analyze people. The larger schools just have to have them due to the number of appicants - One program I wrote replaced many peoples jobs doing the dull boring and repeditive job of look at info like this. Sorry - have to earn a living. Sorry to tell you this... Stuff has been around since the 70's...this is not new technology.

.... I have heard of stories where by hand, applications with 3.7+ will go to the pre-elim pile and applications with 3.69 will go to the rejection pile. but once again, they must make allowances somewhere although I know one can't rely on getting these allowances. That's right - most people just don't get the numbers thing - so here is a good example you can think about - what are 100:1 odds???? Ever see a texas hold'um tournament??? lets say you start with ten tables - each table has ten people. One person beat 9 other people to go to the final table - One person wins the whole thing - 99 people lost. That my friend is 100:1 odds so are you running out to buy your lottery tickets at 1:42 million or 1:48 million if you are then - you may as well taken your money and burn it - flushed done the head or given it away.

It is all in the numbers - people have a hard time personalizing numbers with the illogical statement "well somebody has to win statement". If your grades are one std below the schools average then most likely the computer program will generate a letter on a printer with a signature card so you feel like your rejection letter was hand signed and you will not feel as bad then.

Or you can relax - apply to an island school while all your former friends do grad work - go get your MD and while they are bitter dryed up, wasted worried about the education loan and unpaid you are a MD and in residence and doing the work you love. he he he

[jameslynton]

your calculations are right if they spend 2 hours per application. About right - they scan it in the computer does a creates ID and match process as other stuff comes in. Smaller schools use more people and make more errors.

...however im guessing this is waayy too much since most undergrad universities, even the really small schools, spend an average of 15 minutes per application. You guess wrong - they have to match the information by hand this takes more time.

for med schools, it's probably less since if something really doesn't grab them within that time, it probably isnt a strong applicant. if it is 15 minutes, thats 1,250 hours, or 625 per month over two months so 156ish a week, thats full time work for six employees comfortably. that is feasible. add a computer to do the basic basic cut offs and most of it is hand-work and people considering factors that are not quantitative. gee if you corrected several of your factors you could join me in the e-vile computer world businesses...try a factor of 4 to 6 more than you estimated. Then if the school is big try 4x more people and time. forget the rest of what you said here - you are figuring it out

....i'm hoping they rely less on computers than you mentioned They don't - Some of PeopleSoft's biggest customers are Universities - I consulted at several. Most people have no clue about the business side of Universities. At one place , I was looking at the HR and we had an employee on the payroll since 1934. After I ran the program and the University President saw this - the employee was forced to retire.

..since numbers, while very reliable, aren't completely exemplary of an applicant's abilities and potential. I agree number are just number - but what else do they have to go on??? Unfair - no the top people make it. Does that mean they are better - no - they are just the one's who were better than you and the other rejects. No hard feelings - it is just business - NO - it is personal to you.

....the B retake in math, uh that is a C (when you average the two grades, which is what they'll most likely do) so sadly we're in the same boat. only ya retakes under A-s don't look too great :(. Righty right right....

[jameslynton]

Ishie is right - do apply to state schools and US schools first - they are your best hope for less issues. Some even have class sizes three times the size of Ross (U of Ill). However, there are many Island school grads who get Mayo - Johns Hopkin and even wind up at Harvard in Post grad residences.

It is all about desire in the end. If you don't have some types of talent you can make it up with desire and hard work.

When I came along Island schools did not exsist - Then there was UAG in Mexico. Then SGU - I met one of the first grads from there back in the mid 90's she is a great person and one of the best MD's I have known. That changed my mind about island schools.