Todays Pathology Shelf

[LDMD2B]

Just an update most of my friends thought todays pathology shelf was way hard, it had about 20 micro questions and about 5 genetics, total of 125 question. I don't think making it a part of your final grade is fair, since 20% of it had nothing to do with pathology. The exam should be used for extra credit or to judge the progress of students, but not as a final for a class.

[2cents]

Path has a chapters on Micro, and genetics. Besides by this point you have taken those courses, so why is the test unfair?

In clinicals we have shelf test that are 200 questions long and they cover subjects we may not have seen during the rotation.

The message: Suck it up stop crying. It is not going to get any easier. If you cannot pass a path shelf right after you took path you are going to fail the USMLE. Period!

[LDMD2B]

2 cent who are you to tell me to suck it up? your not in our class so you have no room to talk, I am sure you got more then your share of free point. People like you give doctors a bad name, thats all I am going to say.

[solideliquid]

2 cent who are you to tell me to suck it up? your not in our class so you have no room to talk, I am sure you got more then your share of free point. People like you give doctors a bad name, thats all I am going to say.

I have to agree with 2cent. The school is doing you a favor by trying to prepare you for the USMLE, an exam far more difficult than that shelf or any of the school's other exams. If you are having trouble now, or angry at the composition or the % of your grade from the shelf you will have a problem with the USMLE. I suggest you go to www.usmle.org and look at the syllabus of the step 1. Also go do some step 1 questions and get a feel for what is waiting for you. Step 1 is what it is, only a first step you will have many more exams like it in your career and you have to treat it as what it is, and that is, just thats it's a test nothing more take it and move on.

If you can't or don't want to do this stop now and seek something else.

[gohornsgo]

i didnt think the shelf was that bad today. Lots of stuff was familar and a lots of pictures seemed identical to pictures we have seen before. If you studied during the semester, you probably did better than you think. Most was from Path II, so that was good. Good luck!

"People like you give doctors a bad name"...priceless...for a second i thought you were going to overreact...hahaha

[TropicMD]

The test was HARD? Who would have thought?

News flash...it doesn't get any easier. Wait till clinical rotations when you are working 10-14 hours/day and you have to study for shelves and Step 2.

[rynobuddy]

Agree with LD, test was ridiculous, Pathology II in Maine did not prepare us for 90 % of that test.

[2cents]

2 cent who are you to tell me to suck it up? your not in our class so you have no room to talk, I am sure you got more then your share of free point. People like you give doctors a bad name, thats all I am going to say.

I am some-one who has taken subject, and comp shelf exams in basic science.
I am some one who has passed step 1
I am some one who has written shelf exams in clinicals.
And I am some one who is tired of people who cry/ complain when asked to meet a basic minimal standard.

People like me become doctors, unlike those who cry about shelf exams...That's all I'm going to say.

[shawnm3]

I agree that we were not really prepared from our course..but I completely expected this. We simply memorized a bunch of unrelated facts for each disease without any understanding..by doing this you could ace the school course. If you look at the robbins questions they are similar to the test we had today...I think that if we had more time, dr. w would have taught the class the right way and we could have done well. Nonetheless, in the end, carib school is just a ticket to being allowed to take the boards...the real learning the student must do on his/ her own. Im sure that those who read the robbins , did questions etc will be fine on the shelf, its just those that used the school course as their studying will be screwed...


Agree with LD, test was ridiculous, Pathology II in Maine did not prepare us for 90 % of that test.

[LDMD2B]

I think thats why maybe the cayman guys thought it was easier then Maine, because all are time is taking up know what precent of man vs woman get what. There is no time to study on your own. I personally found that I had more time to study when I was in cayman then I do here.

[solideliquid]

I think thats why maybe the cayman guys thought it was easier then Maine, because all are time is taking up know what precent of man vs woman get what. There is no time to study on your own. I personally found that I had more time to study when I was in cayman then I do here.

The Maine program is the more difficult course, I remember more people failing courses when I was in Maine compared to the cayman semesters.

It's your choice.

[acetre]

I am some-one who has taken subject, and comp shelf exams in basic science.
I am some one who has passed step 1
I am some one who has written shelf exams in clinicals.
And I am some one who is tired of people who cry/ complain when asked to meet a basic minimal standard.

People like me become doctors, unlike those who cry about shelf exams...That's all I'm going to say.
2cents, I understrand your frustration with those who appear to whine, but at the same time some of these individuals do have an underlying point that is probably relativeto their experience as opposed to you own.

In my experience with the shelve, I can honestly say that the ratio of the material covered to the material not covered in classes or otherwise is lop-sided. Tons of material that show up on those exams are not covered at SMU for one reason or another.

No, the whining about it is not necessary b/c others have had to shoulder the burden of taking the shelves without adequate preparation by the school as well.

When you and I took shelves (comprehensive of subject), it wasn't worth 20%. In fact the comprehensive shelves you spoke of were, for 10% or extra credit unless you were at the SMU-Maine campus.

The 10% that was previously allocated for the shelf was much more reasonable. I say that before SMU starts raising the stakes on the shelf, I feel that improvements need to be made in the admissions policy to ensure that the calibur of student who are admitted to the MD program at SMU are capable of handling the shelf and other coursework.

That being said, the students aren't completely at fault for their performances on the shelves...they didn't admit themselves to SMU.

---acetre

[gohornsgo]

"they didn't admit themselves to SMU."

can you elaborate on that?

I'm in maine, and took the shelf today. I dont remember too many questions in which i had NO idea on what was going on. Some of the pictures we have seen before. I think Dr.W did a pretty good job of preparing us. I think I would have done a lot better on it if i had looked over a BRS, or high yield, or even First Aid during the weekend. Instead I took the weekend off for the most part cause 10% wasnt that big a deal to me.

But as before....wait for your score before you start complaining. You might have done better than you think you did.

[LDMD2B]

Ace verry classicly put lol. but let me say this, when SMU Maine give you the 6th path exam on the friday before the shelf and the checkout exam the wednesday before the shelf, when do you have time to sit down and review? If you want students to do good you got to give them the chance, and by having school exams up to April 7th, makes it hard to sit down and review two semesters of path. I don't think it matters if you are a US or Carib student, there is only so much you can do in 2 days. If you blow off the 6th path exam you can fail the class, if you blow off the shelf you can fail. So yes in Maine you are set up to do bad. In cayman at list you can take a week before the shelf and lock youself in and study. In Maine we had to worry about passing the 6th path exam.

[solideliquid]

"they didn't admit themselves to SMU."

can you elaborate on that?

I'm in maine, and took the shelf today. I dont remember too many questions in which i had NO idea on what was going on. Some of the pictures we have seen before. I think Dr.W did a pretty good job of preparing us. I think I would have done a lot better on it if i had looked over a BRS, or high yield, or even First Aid during the weekend. Instead I took the weekend off for the most part cause 10% wasnt that big a deal to me.

But as before....wait for your score before you start complaining. You might have done better than you think you did.

So when you take the USMLE and you see questions that were never covered at SMU are you going to complain?

[thatguy]

someone should call up NBME and ask them to make the shelf exams easier and while we are at it we should see about making the USMLE match the caliber of the students that are taking the exams. haha

[Jeep23Guy]

someone should call up NBME and ask them to make the shelf exams easier and while we are at it we should see about making the USMLE match the caliber of the students that are taking the exams. haha

Maybe we should ask California if they'd do that for us...

[gohornsgo]

So when you take the USMLE and you see questions that were never covered at SMU are you going to complain?

Is there any school that will cover 100% of the USMLE questions we might get? The best they can do, and all i expect, is a starting point in which to study from. We have plenty of extra material to study from...you will pass step one, the school won't pass for you

[acetre]

"they didn't admit themselves to SMU."

can you elaborate on that?

I'm in maine, and took the shelf today. I dont remember too many questions in which i had NO idea on what was going on. Some of the pictures we have seen before. I think Dr.W did a pretty good job of preparing us. I think I would have done a lot better on it if i had looked over a BRS, or high yield, or even First Aid during the weekend. Instead I took the weekend off for the most part cause 10% wasnt that big a deal to me.

But as before....wait for your score before you start complaining. You might have done better than you think you did.

What I mean is that the students didn't admit themselves to SMU. If the school admits students with subpar undergrad stat's, then low shelf scores and coursework scores from those students will more than likely follow.

Now before people start attacking my explanation, I understand that there are some with subpar undergrad and MCAT stats who have and will go on to be successful when given a chance, but those studens are few and far between.

As far as the Maine situation is concerned for the other posters. I truly do understand you guys pain. I will say that the circumstances place on you guys testing schedule with the shelf and course exam given with an extreme instance of inconvenience and poor planning does not reflect in any way against Dr. W. Dr. W is an excellent pathologist and possibly the best professor SMU has on roster to date.

The same scheduling conflict occured a couple of semesters ago in Maine with the shelf and the final exam. Becuase the shelf, at that time was not really worth anything at that time in Maine, a ton of us taking path 2 in Maine chose to blow off the shelf comp for the sake of having a shot passing path. It paid off for us, but you guys dont have that luxury. I feel for your situation.

--acetre

[desai29]

If I were you use this since at St. Christopher we do not have shelf exam but problems.

[2cents]

I have no frustration regarding whinners; rather I have no sympathy. People chose this profession voluntarily and it requires a certain minimun level of competence. If the school is not teaching you enough it is still your responsiblity to prepare for the NBME/USMLE.

Nor do I have any sympathy for the Maine students. Going to maine was a voluntary choice. They have had 6+ test per semester for a long time. None of this is new. If the program is not to your liking then return to cayman. Infact one could argue maine has it easier because their NBME is only worth 10% as opposed to cayman's 20%.

In the end the USMLE, attendings, PDs are not going to care about your excuses. If you can't do it now you will do it later. SMU has given many people the chance to goto medical school who might not otherwise have the opportunity. Those who have what it takes will find a way to be succesful; the rest should go home and stop finding excuses.

I congratulate all those who were able to rise to the occasion; and I look forward to seeing you represent SMU well in the future.

[Junito]

Nor do I have any sympathy for the Maine students. Going to maine was a voluntary choice. They have had 6+ test per semester for a long time. None of this is new. If the program is not to your liking then return to cayman. Infact one could argue maine has it easier because their NBME is only worth 10% as opposed to cayman's 20%.

I agree with most what you said except for the above...Come on now. It's about time the field is leveled. I remember having to take the comp immediately following the Path final (3-4 hour break in between). We fought to the wazoo to get things equal when it came to the comp, but in the end the Maine campus people got the short end of the stick. We just rolled with the punches.

[2cents]

Solution: Don't goto maine.

[LDMD2B]

oh don't worry about that lol cayman is looking better by the day lol just kidding

[Junito]

All students are equal, just Cayman students are more equal than Maine students...;)

[solideliquid]

All students are equal, just Cayman students are more equal than Maine students...;)
I for one enjoyed my time in Maine, it's a beautiful place and I hated living on an island. Furthermore, I thought the education level in maine was higher than the cayman education. It helped my for the step 1 and I was a more rounded medical student for it.

I will say that it is harder and many of my classmates could not keep up and had to stay extra semesters. If that is a problem for someone they should stay in the caymans so they can finish basic science faster and start studying for step 1.

[rynobuddy]

Isn't part of our tuition to the school suppose to prepare us just a tad for these types of exams. Because I feel it just is not happening. Oh nevermind, I forgot am I just paying the $10,000 per semester to sit for the USMLE and eventially do all the teaching to myself.

[gohornsgo]

if you read Dr.W's notes, you would have done fine. Blaming professors is the easy way out, yet others, if not most, arent complaining because we studied and did fine on our own or dont need the 10% because we had a 78+ average going into the shelf......complaining about coming to maine is worthless...it was 100% the student's choice to come to maine. I still can't believe that students have such a strong voice at SMU.....did you complain to the dean when you didnt do so hot at your undergrad school? do you really think you earned a higher grade at MEDICAL school than you did during undergrad? STUDY!!!. Thats all you have to do. Its not that hard....Lots of people have done it and are getting through it. There really is no easy way out of this.....just study!!!!...complaining that you only had 2 days to study for the shelf? amazing....you have been studying for the shelf since january....reading Robbins or BRS during the semester is studying for the shelf and the boards.....don't blame other people for your lackings....because most did just fine in the courses and are either relaxing or organizing things so they can efficiently study for step 1.

[LDMD2B]

Gohonsgo, 20% of the class dropped path last week, and another 10% or so will fail. So I guess it depends on your definition of most. FYI most people that are in the class that are left have an average between 70 and 75. I for one do not blame Dr.W I blame the messed up schedual and the unbalanced grading between cayman and maine. This is one school it should have ONE grading system, it should not be that someone with a 71 passsed in cayman and fails in Maine.

[SillyDoc]

That's not true. 27 of the remaining 41 people in the class have above a 75 average which means that they can't fail regardless of shelf. Another 6-7 people have between 70-74 which means the shelf may impact those at the lower end and there are 6-7 people below 70 There are even a few at 65 who need more than a 100 on the shelf to pass. So gohorns is more or less right and the majority are getting through.

[LDMD2B]

we started with 54, 41 left so 41/54=76 => 24% dropped, now you say 7 people below 70 and 7 between 70-74. Now it will be very hard to pass if you have 70 and below, that ment you needed 70+ on the shelf. so lets say 5 out of those 7 dont pass and 3 out of the 7 with 74 dont pass. Now we have 33/54=61 =>39% of the class did not pass. You are right, most (61%) passed and that is very good for the ones that did. But 39% is a high number of failures. It's easy to say its the students fault, to some degree it is, to some its not.

[SillyDoc]

Even by your own analysis, the shelf affects just a few people, a handful really. It should probably sincerely be considered by the administration as a mitigating factor during the academic grievance process at the start of next term in May. Personally, I think our course average over the six exams should just be the final grade. That way, we still wouldn't benefit from the far more lenient grading of last term with bonus pts, etc. when we weren't even here and didn't need it, but yet we would be earning our grades with no "bonus" concept as the Dean has often stated, perhaps rightly, that he is opposed to.

To me, it just seems wrong that last term you could pass the course with a F, 65, because of their bonus pts and this term you not only have to have a C going into the shelf, but you could still get dragged down to an F because of it. So last term it was a carrot, and this term for some reason it turned into a stick.

[LDMD2B]

Silly it is what it is, Most of the people were smart enough to drop it last week because the knew getting above a 60 on the shelf (no curve) was a long shot for them. I really don't have a solution to the problem, I am not asking for free points only to be treated like cayman. I bet you that someone in cayman with a lower average will pass while the person with higher average in maine wont. Because cayman will give them the "helping hand" while maine will not. I am not saying Maine should, but the system SHOULD be the same.

[2cents]

we started with 54, 41 left so 41/54=76 => 24% dropped, now you say 7 people below 70 and 7 between 70-74. Now it will be very hard to pass if you have 70 and below, that ment you needed 70+ on the shelf. so lets say 5 out of those 7 dont pass and 3 out of the 7 with 74 dont pass. Now we have 33/54=61 =>39% of the class did not pass. You are right, most (61%) passed and that is very good for the ones that did. But 39% is a high number of failures. It's easy to say its the students fault, to some degree it is, to some its not.

All the fancy stats and you are missing the point. The school is asking you to meet a minimal basic standard. I does not matter how much it is worth. If you can not pass the shelf you should not pass path, or any other course.

Who cares what you're smu grades are, the NBME is all that matters.

[Nimmuk]

All the fancy stats and you are missing the point. The school is asking you to meet a minimal basic standard. I does not matter how much it is worth. If you can not pass the shelf you should not pass path, or any other course.

Who cares what you're smu grades are, the NBME is all that matters.

Exactly. I think it goes unnotice the quaility of offshore students. As seen above, there are many people who will fail path !!, not really up to standards. Thus, the strong students will survive and the weak will get left behind. It is up too you what kind of student you will be.

[cubmd]

, I am not asking for free points only to be treated like cayman. I bet you that someone in cayman with a lower average will pass while the person with higher average in maine wont. Because cayman will give them the "helping hand" while maine will not. I am not saying Maine should, but the system SHOULD be the same.


Oh yeah i though the shelf exam in Maine only worth 10% of you total grade while here in Cayman = 20%of the total grade............ can you tell me now where it is easier to pass the class........?:cool: :confused:

[LDMD2B]

I guess you forget the 12 extra points cayman got added to their first exam, and I am sure more points were added to your other exam. We did not have a single point added to our grades.

I totally agree the NBME is what you need to pass and I see the point on passing the shelf. Once more I dont have a problem with that policy but make it equal to all students and give us proper time to study for it. The end game is passing the USMLE, smu needs to set a policy in place and stick to it, this way if you fail you fail, you dont fail because suddently the grade system changed and then next semester you pass because it changed again.

I know one US school does the following, you must pass EITHER the subject shelf or the class. If you fail a class you can get a pass if and only if you pass the shelf. But if you fail the shelf and have a passing class grade then you will pass the class.


This is it for this thread for me, best of luck to you all, and I hope everyone has a good break.

[cubmd]

I guess you forget the 12 extra points cayman got added to their first exam, and I am sure more points were added to your other exam. We did not have a single point added to our grades.

I totally agree the NBME is what you need to pass and I see the point on passing the shelf. Once more I dont have a problem with that policy but make it equal to all students and give us proper time to study for it. The end game is passing the USMLE, smu needs to set a policy in place and stick to it, this way if you fail you fail, you dont fail because suddently the grade system changed and then next semester you pass because it changed again.

I know one US school does the following, you must pass EITHER the subject shelf or the class. If you fail a class you can get a pass if and only if you pass the shelf. But if you fail the shelf and have a passing class grade then you will pass the class.


This is it for this thread for me, best of luck to you all, and I hope everyone has a good break.
The “extra points” that students get in Cayman are only because some questions have more than one answer, they don’t throw questions out because 80 % of the class got it wrong (old times…you were probably here when that used to happen)………we actually have to be present during the exam review and discuss about possible multiple answers (if there is more than one answer), then the instructor analyzes those questions again and if they agree that the question had more than one answer then we get the points. It is not fair for anyone who loses points just because a question has multiple answers and the one you pick it is not the exam key answer. If you didn’t get any extra points and got low grade is because your exam is extremely well done and there is nothing you can do about it (that is your real grade). Why we didn’t get any points for the last pharm test? ……because there were no bad questions, even though the average of the class was low, we didn’t get one point.

I hate the constant competition between Cayman campus and Maine campus because WE ALL GO TO THE SAME SCHOOL (SMU). :evil:

[ol' man]

Man, you guys need to lighten up. I realize it is the end of the semester, but do you really need to air your "dirty lanundry" here? Yeah, I'm in Maine, and I have never been to Cayman. I can't compare the two. Buut arguments like this about differences are seen by the CA Board. Do you really think it would not influence them?

If you need to argue Maine vs Cayman, take it to PM please. If it didn't affect any other states, I'd prefer we never had CA since they are such snots, but it does affect where some of you may someday wish to practice. TONE IT DOWN GUYS! You know Pat Park is going to see these posts, and have ammo to use against you.

[rynobuddy]

"The weak getting left behind is a really ** statement." If a person went into the shelf with a passing score of 70 or better, then they should pass the course period. According to the syllabus I received at the begining of the term it reads 6 exams in Maine for 100% of your grade70 NEEDED TO PASS THE COURSE. No where on that syllabus does it read 10% or 20% of your grade will come from a shelf examinantion, or that this material is subject to change. This altering of schedules and grade percentages 6 or 7 weeks into a semester is just plain crap. This is what blows about SMU administration is all the changes that occur at the drop of a hat. If this decision was made before the semester started, then hey great no complaints here, but that is not how it was or is ever handled by SMU.

[SillyDoc]

does anyone know when the shelf scores come out?