offshore medical schools growing article

[azskeptic]

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/NEWS/60226001/1116

[empathy]

was this thread moved?

[azskeptic]

was this thread moved? article has major interview with the President of SC and that is why I had it at SC's forum.

Dean

[Doc]

I moved it because it has to do mainly with Licensing issues and specifically mentions various schools, including St. Eustatius, Saba, St. Chris, SGU, etc. However, I left a shadow in the SC forum so that users can easily follow the link to the appropriate location.

[OLDPRO]

I think pretty Absurbed and Arrogant to think the US system is the only system for Basic science, I think the Doctors in the story are vastly missinformed (only Basic Sci for most schools with clinicals in USA not all 4 yrs on "some island") and prejudice. Many good doctors, successful doctors have come from offshore schools.

[Tritonesub]

mod please delete

[Tritonesub]

I thought it was a good article. It shows the success of a few of these offshore grads. It also presents a good picture of the type of person who is critical of these schools. Namely old stubborn physicians trained in the U.S. several years ago who think that there is only one way to do things.

The reality is that even though Dr. B claims a savant can pass the licensing examinations, he himself would have trouble passing Step 1, considering the archaic nature of his education.

I think the writer could have found a better person to be his anti-IMG advocate. Baratnz's general stance can be summarized as 'Medical education cannot take place on a small island.' Is there any rationale behind such reasoning??

I was disappointed that even though Dr. G was interviewed that the writer did not include any of the many St. Christopher graduates that are in residency or are successfully practicing, as many have had the same accomplishments and accolades as the students who were mentioned.

The article did point out the difference between the two systems as highlighted with the exam statistics. One system (U.S.) weeds out people before they begin medical school, the other (offshore) weeds out people during medical school. I believe that in the end, however, you do have a similar product.

One could argue that offshore medical schools produce a better product. Those that are successful in taking this route learn how seek and learn information on their own because they are truely interested in the material. Medicine requires a lifetime commitment to learning. Once a physician is out of residency he must educate himself as medicine is everchanging. Most U.S. grads have trouble doing this when there is not someone pushing them to do so or spoonfeeding them information. Offshore grads never had these luxuries and thus acquire this vital skill early in their education.

[jpryor]

I think Azskeptic is becoming as loose with his marketing allegations as the schools he criticizes. How many schools have you visited, Az?

Articles such as this Worcester Telegram aren't too upsetting, as they reveal how low people must go in order to have something negative to say. This Dr. Baratz is an embarassing example. This fool has been a medical instructor, yet uses a term such as idiot savant? He then compounds his foolishness by suggesting a savant could pass the USMLE exams? Anybody who is familiar with savants knows that the comprehensive knowledge needed to pass any part of the USMLE exceeds the capabilities of any known savant. Furthermore, you'd think that somebody knowledgeable enough to have a legitimate opinion about the licensing process would be able to use the proper terms, as there is a significant difference between Boards and USMLE exams.

There seems to be a corollary between people opposed to offshore medical schools and the disdain for the USMLE. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (a fallacy of logic). I think IMG's are inferior. IMG's are passing the USMLE. Ergo, USMLE's are inadequate tests. Pretty pathetic reasoning used by individuals trying to mask their bias--with specific reference to Ms. J.H. on the Medical Board of California.

If you have to resort to distorting truth, twisting words or outright lying, you are acknowledging the weakness of your argument. It doesn't matter if 7 out of 10 times you are right. The two times you are honestly wrong can be defended. But the one time you lie, you've branded yourself as disreputable.

[azskeptic]

Some researchers in California actually passed the USMLEs who had never been to a medical school. I'll try to find the article. Reference visiting schools it is what I do and increasingly will be doing more. Your constant attacks are sort of hilarious----readers can look at your constant attacks as symbolic of something wrong with your perception of information you don't like.

I think Azskeptic is becoming as loose with his marketing allegations as the schools he criticizes. How many schools have you visited, Az?

Articles such as this Worcester Telegram aren't too upsetting, as they reveal how low people must go in order to have something negative to say. This Dr. Baratz is an embarassing example. This fool has been a medical instructor, yet uses a term such as idiot savant? He then compounds his foolishness by suggesting a savant could pass the USMLE exams? Anybody who is familiar with savants knows that the comprehensive knowledge needed to pass any part of the USMLE exceeds the capabilities of any known savant. Furthermore, you'd think that somebody knowledgeable enough to have a legitimate opinion about the licensing process would be able to use the proper terms, as there is a significant difference between Boards and USMLE exams.

There seems to be a corollary between people opposed to offshore medical schools and the disdain for the USMLE. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (a fallacy of logic). I think IMG's are inferior. IMG's are passing the USMLE. Ergo, USMLE's are inadequate tests. Pretty pathetic reasoning used by individuals trying to mask their bias--with specific reference to Ms. J.H. on the Medical Board of California.

If you have to resort to distorting truth, twisting words or outright lying, you are acknowledging the weakness of your argument. It doesn't matter if 7 out of 10 times you are right. The two times you are honestly wrong can be defended. But the one time you lie, you've branded yourself as disreputable.

[jpryor]

Some researchers in California actually passed the USMLEs who had never been to a medical school. I'll try to find the article. Reference visiting schools it is what I do and increasingly will be doing more. Your constant attacks are sort of hilarious----readers can look at your constant attacks as symbolic of something wrong with your perception of information you don't like.

Well, you are making two of my points...thanks. The topic was the use of savants and you counter with researchers (presumably PhD's?) Yeah, most scientists could pass Step 1, since it is Basic Science. Pony up some who have completed all Steps.

Visiting schools in the future isn't what you alleged in the article. I specifically asked how many you have visited.

[azskeptic]

Well, you are making two of my points...thanks. The topic was the use of savants and you counter with researchers (presumably PhD's?) Yeah, most scientists could pass Step 1, since it is Basic Science. Pony up some who have completed all Steps.

Visiting schools in the future isn't what you alleged in the article. I specifically asked how many you have visited. Sorry, not something I disclose but have been to quite a few schools already. I'll be at quite a few more as my project goes forward. Why, I've been to more schools than some of our readers have attended already.

[jpryor]

Well, I only know of one...and your pending visit to the UK.

[jpryor]

Well, I only know of one...and your pending visit to the UK.

Oops...somebody just reminded me of another visit you made that I forgot. So make that 2 schools.

[azskeptic]

Well, I only know of one...and your pending visit to the UK. Ok. that is

[azskeptic]

Well, I only know of one...and your pending visit to the UK. Ok. that is indeed what

[azskeptic]

Well, I only know of one...and your pending visit to the UK. Ok. that is indeed what you know

[ASIANDOC]

QUOTE from above article:

"Dr. B isn't as confident. He has taught at medical schools since 1970, including at Boston University and Tufts University. He said the process of training a doctor is thorough and unable to be replicated at small, offshore schools."

Hum...Boston University and Tufts? I wonder who is leading the FP program with only faculty privileged in OB at Boston Univ for over 10 yrs professorship?
I wonder who is one of the very few excellent candidates accepted in the very competetive critical care/pulmonery fellowship at Tufts this year?
Yes,grads from the carribeans schools [and from unapproved ones in CA too]and they can also brag about not only Tufts and Boston univ,but also they are as we speak training at Harvard!!!!

[jpryor]

So, you will represent to reporters and medical boards that you have a hobby of visiting offshore medical schools, yet you won't discuss the topic with people who can refute that? Very interesting.

[ASIANDOC]

QUOTE from above article:

As a hobby, Mr. ... said, he travels to many of the schools to investigate them, and he then sends the results to state medical licensure boards

AS a hobby!!!!
experts at the FSMB,LCME,AAMC,spend decades in this area to gain the expertise to evaluate properly the medical education standards,even when CA does it many critics raise concerns due to lack of resources and exprtise by states,now anyone wants to do it as hobby will be allowed?I hope the citizens in this country can be better protected than few individuals enjoying a hobby!

[Aviv Imanuel]

..."Dr. G acknowledged that not all the schools are trustworthy, but he said the majority of them are. Even so, he said, the worst ones pose no threat to public health. Like students in the United States, attendees of offshore schools must still pass a series of rigorous exams before becoming licensed in the United States. Therefore, unqualified graduates have no chance of becoming a licensed doctor,"

Not to mention passing residency training where you are under a microscope. You succesfully pass all this, where is the argument? I have seen my fair share of BAD US trained physicians as well as foreing trained physicians. The perception is dependent on your level of bias.






http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/NEWS/60226001/1116

[ASIANDOC]

The most important,most powerful organization in the US that oversee and protect physicians called the Americam Medical Association,its views stated in Jan 06 article /comments:

"When individual states create their own standards, this creates a patchwork that discriminates against candidates who are highly qualified," Dr...... said."

so when students and residents uses the term "discriminations" they are not alone,US organized medicine officials also use it.

[Aviv Imanuel]

The term as I conceive applies to Constitutionally protected individuals by definition. I am not saying it is incorrectly used, but loosely used, maybe.

Practicing medicine is not a right, but a privilege and as such states have all the power to regulate it as they see it fit.





The most important,most powerful organization in the US that oversee and protect physicians called the Americam Medical Association,its views stated in Jan 06 article /comments:

"When individual states create their own standards, this creates a patchwork that discriminates against candidates who are highly qualified," Dr...... said."

so when students and residents uses the term "discriminations" they are not alone,US organized medicine officials also use it.

[jpryor]

Still won't answer which schools, huh, Az? How about discussing your methods then. Does meeting with disgruntled students constitute a site visit? Doe standing on one side of a fence looking at a school constitute a site visit?

Have you ever met with any school administration? Any instructors? Have you met with any Ministry of Health officials?

[azskeptic]

Still won't answer which schools, huh, Az? How about discussing your methods then. Does meeting with disgruntled students constitute a site visit? Doe standing on one side of a fence looking at a school constitute a site visit?

Have you ever met with any school administration? Any instructors? Have you met with any Ministry of Health officials? Wait for my book which will discuss all.

[jpryor]

Best you remember James Frey then.

[azskeptic]

Best you remember James Frey then. there you go.

[ASIANDOC]

Wait for my book which will discuss all.

In order for a book like this to be taken seriously you must invite distinguished panel on its contributors team like :

Dr......
x president FSMB

Dr....
board member LCME

Mr
x state licensing lawyer

Dr
ECFMG planning committee

Dr
AMA chair IMG committe...

ETC.....................
otherwise no one will respect it or take it seriously,like in the past I read a list by AAIMS[something like that] and even some state baords told me this is a quesionable reviews.

Actually,I want to have a weekend hobby start looking and Eastern European med schools and its standards and report my findings to the GMC.

[jpryor]

Actually,I want to have a weekend hobby start looking and Eastern European med schools and its standards and report my findings to the GMC.

I think you're over-qualified...you actually have some credentials.

[ASIANDOC]

you are right I am over qualified,I will change my hobby to review our foreign policies and report to Mr President my findings.

[jpryor]

you are right I am over qualified,I will change my hobby to review our foreign policies and report to Mr President my findings.

LOL There ya go!

[Bhoot]

A legend in his own mind....:bored:

[ol' man]

I think you're over-qualified...you actually have some credentials.

:lolup: :lolup: :lolup: :lolup: :lolup: :lolup: :lolup:

[Miklos]

Actually,I want to have a weekend hobby start looking and Eastern European med schools and its standards and report my findings to the GMC.
So long as the schools are located in EU member countries, your comments will be meaningless, as the decision of equivalency has been reached at a much higher level than the GMC, namely the European Commission.

[jpryor]

Speaking of looking stupid...quit being so anal. It's not as though Asiandoc is GOING to develop a weekend hobby of doing this. And his comments were more dimensional than just the GMC.

[Miklos]

Speaking of looking stupid...quit being so anal. It's not as though Asiandoc is GOING to develop a weekend hobby of doing this. And his comments were more dimensional than just the GMC.
Deleted by user. See http://www.valuemd.com/411151-post62.html

[jpryor]

Well, Miklos, I think you're still being too anal. For one, Asiandoc was discussing anecdotal evidence and not quoting any source other than his own experiences. Secondly, the whole matter was a sarcastic critique of certain people's statements.

As far as my 'camp' goes...I'm aware of no 'camp', following or people stepping up to the plate and declaring their allegiance with me or my views. Beyond that, I'm not understanding what it is you're trying to say.

To clarify what I have said...chill. You missed the irony and humor, evidently.

[Miklos]

Well, Miklos, I think you're still being too anal. For one, Asiandoc was discussing anecdotal evidence and not quoting any source other than his own experiences. Secondly, the whole matter was a sarcastic critique of certain people's statements.

As far as my 'camp' goes...I'm aware of no 'camp', following or people stepping up to the plate and declaring their allegiance with me or my views. Beyond that, I'm not understanding what it is you're trying to say.

To clarify what I have said...chill. You missed the irony and humor, evidently.
Didn't see the humor at the time. See http://www.valuemd.com/411151-post62.html

[bts4202]

You know, what I find interesting about this?

Whenever, ASIANDOC or others in your 'camp' spout poorly sourced or incorrect info, you are ever so quick to defend them and attack those that challenge them. Strangely, that isn't the case when it comes to the other side of the story.

BTW, regarding the challenge to the med board on the other thread, I think it is a pipe dream of your camp that someone will actually win. But, hey, we are all entitled to our dreams.

This is quite the Borderline Personality Disorder post. Its not always "us vs them" man. Opinions are just opinions.

[jpryor]

No, neither of you is funny.

But I look marvelous.

Oh yeah...please note that I haven't joined THAT conversation. I agree that it's pretty weak.

[ASIANDOC]

Miklos,I do not belong to any camp since I graduated over 20 yrs go and have no interest in any campaign ,my general views is everyone deserves to be treated fairly,It upsets me when I read AUG in Mexico not good schools or SGU and AUC banned in Idaho,or the Palm trees doctors by Forbes taking about another carribean school,etc.I am advocate of smart grads who proven themseves and they must be treated like anyone who comes from Ethiopia or malta,and I find people who never been to many international schools claiming such schools are LCME standards,I been in person to many of those and amny were the safe heavens to my region rejects,but who cares they are far away from us.
my opinion that as group Mexican and carribeans grads are targeted unfairly in many cases,some schools must cease operation but many are good ones,I notice few who happen to be approved in one state are insulting all others as if they are Harvard students and forgetting other states who still targeting such grads,I suggest unity and coorporation between all of you guys because its all about your futures and careers.
good luck

[Miklos]

Miklos,I do not belong to any camp since I graduated over 20 yrs go and have no interest in any campaign ,my general views is everyone deserves to be treated fairly,It upsets me when I read AUG in Mexico not good schools or SGU and AUC banned in Idaho,or the Palm trees doctors by Forbes taking about another carribean school,etc.I am advocate of smart grads who proven themseves and they must be treated like anyone who comes from Ethiopia or malta,and I find people who never been to many international schools claiming such schools are LCME standards,I been in person to many of those and amny were the safe heavens to my region rejects,but who cares they are far away from us.
my opinion that as group Mexican and carribeans grads are targeted unfairly in many cases,some schools must cease operation but many are good ones,I notice few who happen to be approved in one state are insulting all others as if they are Harvard students and forgetting other states who still targeting such grads,I suggest unity and coorporation between all of you guys because its all about your futures and careers.
good luck

Well, that's quite interesting considering your other posts on the subject slamming IMGs because they graduated from Eastern European schools. So, is this a change of heart on your part?

[MD04]

Some researchers in California actually passed the USMLEs who had never been to a medical school. I'll try to find the article. Reference visiting schools it is what I do and increasingly will be doing more. Your constant attacks are sort of hilarious----readers can look at your constant attacks as symbolic of something wrong with your perception of information you don't like.

Medicine should be treated just like any other field.
There is no magic to it. (Almost all Ph.D, MS, or )any science gradutae can pass theses exams.

[ASIANDOC]

Well, that's quite interesting considering your other posts on the subject slamming IMGs because they graduated from Eastern European schools. So, is this a change of heart on your part?

not slamming anything,some schools are good and some are not anywhere,I am just sharing personal info and facts.I responded to message stating all non carribeans have good standards,I am saying that is not true and many like myself comming from third world countries know many schools in that part of the world are substandards.

[bts4202]

Medicine should be treated just like any other field.
There is no magic to it. (Almost all Ph.D, MS, or )any science gradutae can pass theses exams.

you must not have taken step 2, step 2 CS, or step 3. There is no PhD that could pass these exams. Step 1 is easily passable by most biological scientists, especially pharmacologists, because it is all basic science based. the only way that any PhD could pass any of the other exams is if they had similar clinical training to what we get.... and that is the point. The only way to pass those exams is to get proper training.

[Picard]

you must not have taken step 2, step 2 CS, or step 3. There is no PhD that could pass these exams. Step 1 is easily passable by most biological scientists, especially pharmacologists, because it is all basic science based. the only way that any PhD could pass any of the other exams is if they had similar clinical training to what we get.... and that is the point. The only way to pass those exams is to get proper training.

Actually, I know a couple of basic science PhD faculty members who passed mocked Step I/II/III. They did it just to prove that it can be done without formal clinical trainings of medical school. Both of them took Kaplan's review courses and passed mocked Step I, Step II (before the CS/CK stuff) and Step III with very respectable projected scores. As for CSA (now CS) -- a nursing student can pass it with some coaching.

This why no medical boards will license you based on the mere passing of USMLE I/II/III. And no specialty boards will certify you merely on the passing of the specialty board exam without proper documentation of residency training. (Heck, most of my residency classmates did well enough on the IM in-training exam -- made up of old real board exams -- during our internship year to pass the actual medicine board). The process of a proper education counts just as much as passing standardized exams.

P

[AUCMD2006]

Actually, I know a couple of basic science PhD faculty members who passed mocked Step I/II/III. They did it just to prove that it can be done without formal clinical trainings of medical school. Both of them took Kaplan's review courses and passed mocked Step I, Step II (before the CS/CK stuff) and Step III with very respectable projected scores. As for CSA (now CS) -- a nursing student can pass it with some coaching.

This why no medical boards will license you based on the mere passing of USMLE I/II/III. And no specialty boards will certify you merely on the passing of the specialty board exam without proper documentation of residency training. (Heck, most of my residency classmates did well enough on the IM in-training exam -- made up of old real board exams -- during our internship year to pass the actual medicine board). The process of a proper education counts just as much as passing standardized exams.

P


absolutely! you need the textbook stuff to understand disease but you also need experience treating it and discovering it b/c when was the last time one of your patients presented like a question stem from any exam?

[MD04]

Actually, I know a couple of basic science PhD faculty members who passed mocked Step I/II/III. They did it just to prove that it can be done without formal clinical trainings of medical school. Both of them took Kaplan's review courses and passed mocked Step I, Step II (before the CS/CK stuff) and Step III with very respectable projected scores. As for CSA (now CS) -- a nursing student can pass it with some coaching.

This why no medical boards will license you based on the mere passing of USMLE I/II/III. And no specialty boards will certify you merely on the passing of the specialty board exam without proper documentation of residency training. (Heck, most of my residency classmates did well enough on the IM in-training exam -- made up of old real board exams -- during our internship year to pass the actual medicine board). The process of a proper education counts just as much as passing standardized exams.

P
I completely agree w/ u. I do not think any medical school anywhere in the world including in the USA. is caple of producing competent medical doctor right out of medical school. medical school is just a starting point of becoming a doctor. It just provide you very basic knowledage and show you path.
It is completely a political propaganda againt to FMGs by certain states but they all know howmuch their medical students able to handle the situation alone if any emergency situation occurs.

THe greatest nation (USA) in the world created all kind of std examinations such as ACT, SAT, TOEFL, GRE, MCAT GMAT and more.... for every field you could mention.
It is so hard to understand why they give such a hard time accepting someone who completed all of his residency in the USA.

[bts4202]

Actually, I know a couple of basic science PhD faculty members who passed mocked Step I/II/III. They did it just to prove that it can be done without formal clinical trainings of medical school. Both of them took Kaplan's review courses and passed mocked Step I, Step II (before the CS/CK stuff) and Step III with very respectable projected scores. As for CSA (now CS) -- a nursing student can pass it with some coaching.

This why no medical boards will license you based on the mere passing of USMLE I/II/III. And no specialty boards will certify you merely on the passing of the specialty board exam without proper documentation of residency training. (Heck, most of my residency classmates did well enough on the IM in-training exam -- made up of old real board exams -- during our internship year to pass the actual medicine board). The process of a proper education counts just as much as passing standardized exams.

P

Thank you for proving my point. I did not say that PhD's are too stupid to pass the exams, I said they did not learn the material in their courses to pass the exams. A PhD who is motivated to pass a mock MD exam to prove a point could very easily spend time studying the appropriate texts and attending a kaplan course and learn enough information to pass the exams. MD's are not the only people on earth capable of memorizing data. The point still remains that anyone who is taking those tests must be proficient in the information neccesary to function as a house officer. It is a step in the process of becoming a doctor, the next becomes ones speciality boards.

[Miklos]

not slamming anything,some schools are good and some are not anywhere,I am just sharing personal info and facts.I responded to message stating all non carribeans have good standards,I am saying that is not true and many like myself comming from third world countries know many schools in that part of the world are substandards.
How is this different from an assertion by a US trained attending that in his experience, graduates of Carib schools and the schools themselves are substandard?

I think you are guilty of the same generalization in your other posts.

There are plenty of reasons not to attend certain schools in certain countries (as I have pointed out on the Europe forum), however your slam on Eastern European grads based on your personal experiences and biases is the equivalent of the above bias of a US educated attending against Carib grads.

Regardless of the school, my personal evaluation of residents and physicians is based on how well they do their job, how commited they are to their patients and how well they treat their co-workers.

I find that it is a much better method than your generalizations. Which, I need to point out, you put forth at the same time while calling for individual evaluation of BC'd physicians by medical boards regardless of school.

What gives?

[Miklos]

Deleted by user. See http://www.valuemd.com/411151-post62.html

[jpryor]

(BTW, jpryor, in defense of my perceived obsessive compulsive traits, I've found that good physicians are highly detail oriented. They are the ones that double check labs, worry about the small stuff etc... )

Then this post belies your claim. I am neither pro-SC nor anti-Ca. Since you are so anal, please research my posts and support your allegations. Otherwise, you're just being truculent.

In the event the obvious escapes you, my comments about St. Chris have been limited to the charter issue. There has been a concerted effort to portray doom and gloom despite the evidence that there never was a valid issue regarding its charter. If those people who consider facts and are unbiased have formed a 'camp' then I'll join it...but I won't be singing any of those hokey songs while we toast marshmellows.

If you perceive that to be an apologist, then you're less intelligent than I thought. Prior to this fracas, I had been impressed with your reasoning skills and attentiveness. Now, I'm concerned that if somebody says "When pigs fly" you'll argue porcine aerodynamics.

[lmoliver]

"Some of these schools are two cadavers and a Pizza Hut," Mr. Hughson said."

Did you see this? Talk about propaganda.

[stephew]

folks, play nice or be warned.

[bts4202]

1. I said that your post was a "Borderline Personality post", I did not say anything about you personally nor did I attempt to assess your mental health. Sorry if you took offense, but it certainly wasn;t meant as a personal insult.

2. Is your argument so weak that you can only turn and attack the one thing you know that you will have support for? SC is always quite polarizing, so you must be hoping to garner some support from people who like arguing with me in other situations. However, this is the first time SC has been mentioned here (and for no real reason I should add) so your post looks very much like a desperate flinging of indictments and hoping one sticks. I did not think that a friendly, minor debate like this was so important for you to win that you would have to resort to this type of tactic.

3. I couldn't care less about Cali. Search my post history and you will see that. Although, you seem to follow my post history pretty closely so you should already know that. Your "camp" theory does not seem to hold up too well.

4. if you can't handle having civil debates with people who may have differing opinions than you do, you may wish to avoid posting on a public forum such as this.

[jpryor]

"Some of these schools are two cadavers and a Pizza Hut," Mr. Hughson said."

Did you see this? Talk about propaganda.

Actually, he was quoting someone else...but note the absence of due credit. Typical of his style. I wonder if he can spell poseur?

[ol' man]

Definitely not referring to MUA. There is NO fast food there. We would have WELCOMED a Pizza Hut when I was on the island.

[lmoliver]

No, I took it out of the article that was linked.

[jpryor]

That initial phrase was made by, I believe it was Jack Dolan, in an article he wrote a few years ago.

[Picard]

the only way that any PhD could pass any of the other exams is if they had similar clinical training to what we get.... and that is the point. The only way to pass those exams is to get proper training.

My post about PhD's passing USMLE's whole point was that basic science PhD's do NOT have to go through "similar clinical training to what we get" (direct quote) in order to pass Step II/III. I do not consider reading clinical board review books and Kaplan courses (what those two PhD's did) as "similar clinical training" as proper clinical rotations that 3rd/4th year students and PGY-1 interns go through.

The whole point is, passing USLME steps by themselves are NOT a good enough to assess one's ability to practice medicine and be licensed. This is why I disagree with those who said that graduates from newer schools/unapproved schools/on-line schools ought to be granded licensure without questions about the properness of their medical education simply because they have passed USMLE steps "like everyone else." The point is, the proper educational process counts. Otherwise, those two basic science PhD's (who are full professors in a large US medical school by the way) ought to be licensed to practice medicine since they passed all the USMLE steps required of all US medical school grads (Step IICS was not a requirement at the time). And I, along with all my classmates back in residency should have been ABIM "board certified" by November of our internship year (a whole 5 months into internship) because we scored well above the board passing percentile on our in-training exam... and should not have been made to "waste our time" in residency.

Passing standardize tests are just a very small part of licensure process. The properness of your education process counts.

P

[AUCMD2006]

"Passing standardize tests are just a very small part of licensure process. The properness of your education process counts."

ah but you forget we live in 21st century entitlement america where everyone is entitled to something just because _____fill_in_the_blank__. who cares if you are a psychopath and could not talk to another human being if your life depended on it, you passed step 1,2 here is your license.

[###]

..............

[Miklos]

1. I said that your post was a "Borderline Personality post", I did not say anything about you personally nor did I attempt to assess your mental health. Sorry if you took offense, but it certainly wasn;t meant as a personal insult.

2. Is your argument so weak that you can only turn and attack the one thing you know that you will have support for? SC is always quite polarizing, so you must be hoping to garner some support from people who like arguing with me in other situations. However, this is the first time SC has been mentioned here (and for no real reason I should add) so your post looks very much like a desperate flinging of indictments and hoping one sticks. I did not think that a friendly, minor debate like this was so important for you to win that you would have to resort to this type of tactic.

3. I couldn't care less about Cali. Search my post history and you will see that. Although, you seem to follow my post history pretty closely so you should already know that. Your "camp" theory does not seem to hold up too well.

4. if you can't handle having civil debates with people who may have differing opinions than you do, you may wish to avoid posting on a public forum such as this.

I have to admit that you are probably right on all counts.

I should not have been posting when I was, as it was on the heels of a particularly bad day for me and was using pretty primitive defense mechanisms (not that this excuses my posts).

In addition to you, I apologize to anyone else I offended.

I'm going back and editing my posts.:sorry:

[jpryor]

That makes sense. Bad days are allowed.

[bts4202]

I have to admit that you are probably right on all counts.

I should not have been posting when I was, as it was on the heels of a particularly bad day for me and was using pretty primitive defense mechanisms (not that this excuses my posts).

In addition to you, I apologize to anyone else I offended.

I'm going back and editing my posts.:sorry:

no problem. Peace, love, and hair grease.... :drinkbud:

[microphage]

no problem. Peace, love, and hair grease.... :drinkbud:

NO NO NO.


WAR, TORTURE, and SCUTWORK!

[AUCMD2006]

NO NO NO.


WAR, TORTURE, and SCUTWORK!

the bitterness of a surgery scutmonkey